Author Topic: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs  (Read 3801 times)

Offline Millsee

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Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« on: October 11, 2005, 11:35:30 pm »
Tony Blair has locked horns with the judges, saying the legal system is failing to protect people from organised crime and nuisance behaviour.

His comments came as the new top judge in England and Wales warned politicians not to "browbeat" the judiciary.

Mr Blair denied he was doing that - but said both judges and politicians should keep to their proper role.

And he said he wanted more "summary justice" through instant fines because the court system was so complicated.

Laws against organised crime just were not tough enough, argued the prime minister - saying he was discussing the problem with police.

Mr Blair signalled his frustration in his Labour Party conference speech last month, when he said he had "battered" the criminal justice system for eight years to get it to change.

He returned to the theme when questioned at his monthly news conference on Tuesday.

The police end up being completely hide-bound by a whole series of restrictions and difficulties

It came on the same day the new Lord Chief Justice, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, told reporters: "Occasionally one feels that an individual politician is trying to browbeat the judiciary, and that is wholly inappropriate.

"We are all trying to do our jobs to the best of our abilities."

The top judge said the judiciary had a clear job: to apply the law as laid down by Parliament.

Mr Blair said denied "browbeating" judges but said he was sitting "in the decision making seat" for laws to protect people.

"All I am saying to the judiciary is be aware that there is a proper role for the judiciary and there is a proper role for government and for Parliament."

But he went on to voice his concerns about the court system.

He said: "If people want us to tackle the new types of crime today, international terrorism, this very brutal violent organised crime, antisocial behaviour... you can't do it by the rules of the game we have at the moment...

"It is too complicated, too laborious, the police end up being completely hide-bound by a whole series of restrictions and difficulties, it doesn't work."

Mr Blair said the system had to protect innocent people but protecting law abiding citizens had to come first, he said.

Among measures being examined were:

    * Tighter laws to close pubs and bars with regular disorder problems outside them

    * Stronger police powers against people using their homes to deal in any illegal drugs

    * Extending on-the-spot fines to various offences - although Mr Blair ruled out anti-social behaviour orders for children under-10.

Critics of instant fines say they mean people must prove their innocence.

But Downing Street urges people to recognise the "hassle factor of a long lengthy legal process" rather than dealing with low level crime where it happens.

The fines are being compared to speeding tickets, where drivers can choose whether to pay up immediately or contest the case in court.

Conservative shadow home secretary David Davis said he occasionally got annoyed by judges' decisions but just attacking them was not a good idea.

"The point is to make the law very precise, make the law very accurate and then you won't get the wrong outcomes," he said.

Liberal Democrat spokesman Mark Oaten warned: "The quick powers Mr Blair is issuing for the police to give instant justice are not as effective as he is making out."

Anti-social behaviour orders could bring short-term relief to an area but ultimately only move nuisance families elsewhere, he said.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 12:16:35 pm by Rushian »

Offline ElSheak

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2005, 12:26:07 am »
Papering over the cracks when the foundations went years ago! Country needs an overhall and it wont be coming from this plank in charge, nor the soft shites that continue to bend over backwards to enforce this human rights crap when the law is left to come second best.

You only have to read todays paper about the school boy and his mam who were award £11,000 compo for the fact that he was expelled for taking a knife to school. All because of the distress it caused him and her beacuse he was expelled. Nonsense!!

The law is today unenforcable and on top of that mocked. If the law is not respected how can it serve its purpose? All these new laws, ASBO's, on the spot fines, just aren't practical. Who is there to enforce that it goes through and the punishment is upheld?

Its the root of the problem that needs tackling! With out removing the root problem, the problem will come back and grow! I don't know where to start looking for the root, but am sure an army of social workers, think-tanks and proffesionals could find it. Its just when we find it, effective, serious action needs taking, not another softly-softly approach that this namby-pamby soft as shite nation keeps rolling over for!

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Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2005, 12:30:31 am »
Quote
Among measures being examined were:

    * Tighter laws to close pubs and bars with regular disorder problems outside them

This is bizarre.

 ???

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2005, 12:32:35 am »
This is bizarre.

Why?

Seems like something that the licensing act of 2003 set out to do?

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2005, 12:35:29 am »
Why?

Seems like something that the licensing act of 2003 set out to do?

you cant 'clamp down' on pubs after you just let them open all bloody night. More to do with the 'shire's' than Liverpool but I'm talking from experience here. I think the wheel will fall off.

Offline Millsee

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2005, 12:37:03 am »
Why?

Seems like something that the licensing act of 2003 set out to do?

That licencing act was the first time most of us had heard the phrase "binge drinking". Another noo labour mind control invention.

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2005, 12:40:10 am »
you cant 'clamp down' on pubs after you just let them open all bloody night.

Why not? The purpose of the act was to make it much easier to close down out of line places than it currently is and thats what it's done no?

It's not just about letting them stay open longer, it's also about giving local authorties more power to close them.

Offline Rizla

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2005, 12:43:07 am »
That licencing act was the first time most of us had heard the phrase "binge drinking". Another noo labour mind control invention.

I always thought that phrase was invented by the Daily Mail...they seem to run a campaign against it every day

Load of bollocks the government attempting to create a 'Mediterranean' drinking culture in our country anyway. We dont have the weather for it and it has always been a tradition for Brits and Vikings etc to drink ourselves in to oblivion, that will not change. You are going against 2000+ years of ingrained habit there...

Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2005, 12:43:42 am »

That licencing act was the first time most of us had heard the phrase "binge drinking". Another noo labour mind control invention.

Bleedin hell ;D

Hmmm, I don't think so, I was binge drinking in the 80's. I suspect since alcohol was invented there's been binge drinking...

87:13

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2005, 12:45:19 am »
Why not? The purpose of the act was to make it much easier to close down out of line places than it currently is and thats what it's done no?

It's not just about letting them stay open longer, it's also about giving local authorties more power to close them.

Its in disarray. Whatever the motives for the changes the reality is that loads of later opening has already been granted and the systems to close them after complaints will be mindbogglingly bureaucratic. I can only really refer you to posts that will appear on here in December. After it has kicked into place. Basically it is a very unknown zone at the moment.

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2005, 12:52:24 am »
Its in disarray.

According to whom?

Quote
Whatever the motives for the changes the reality is that loads of later opening has already been granted and the systems to close them after complaints will be mindbogglingly bureaucratic.

Will or is?

Quote
I can only really refer you to posts that will appear on here in December. After it has kicked into place.

So your just guessing at the moment?

Quote
Basically it is a very unknown zone at the moment.

To be honest, if it's a fuck up then it's something that could lead to a new government being introduced when the next general election is called. Labour aren't going to put their knecks on the line that much.

My understanding of the act is, whilst it allowed a licencee longer opening hours, it also make it more difficult for a licencee to get a license and retain it in the event of complaints relating to his/her venue.

Perhaps you can enlighten us more on the interpretation by your force of the act?

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2005, 01:15:46 am »
Ok.

I was chatting to my mate who is the licensing Officer for Hereford. Its a shambles with the paperwork. You'll have to accept that.

We tried to close a Club last year after spending months gathering evidence. Drunken ness, disorder. You name it. Result was a 'caution'. CPS decision.

Our main Clubs have already asked for, and been granted, licences for 0330 hrs closing. Conditions have been imposed. One is a 'puke patrol' requirement to clean up vomit.

Does anyone dispute that any challenge to a licence will be resolved in slow time? My experience.

My Forces interpretation of the Act? Nothing much to interpret. Bars and stuff can stay open unless there are objections. We will just deal with the chaos connected with bars who have been granted late licenses.


Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2005, 01:25:02 am »
We tried to close a Club last year after spending months gathering evidence. Drunken ness, disorder. You name it. Result was a 'caution'. CPS decision.

So in otherwords pre the new act, something the new act was brought in to make easier.

Quote
Our main Clubs have already asked for, and been granted, licences for 0330 hrs closing. Conditions have been imposed. One is a 'puke patrol' requirement to clean up vomit.

Does anyone dispute that any challenge to a licence will be resolved in slow time? My experience.

The new act is supposed to give the police / local authorities more powers and hence close a premises more easily. A premises challenging the local authority wanting to take their license from them will have much less power. It's give and take.

Quote
My Forces interpretation of the Act? Nothing much to interpret. Bars and stuff can stay open unless there are objections. We will just deal with the chaos connected with bars who have been granted late licenses.

If thats the attitude police forces are taking, then it's bound to fail. Unless police forces coopperate more with the local authorities, then pretty much nothing is going to change.

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2005, 01:37:22 am »
As you will have gathered my 'take' on this is pretty much what I am feeling from being in close contact with the whole situation. I am very worried with the whole lot being shifted over to Councils. I'll reiterate that I think that situations will evolve differently in various areas of the Country. Its 'suck it and see' I think.

If I am anticipating problems I am sorry if you just consider that to be some sort of 'guess'. Its an informed view.

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2005, 01:43:54 am »
As you will have gathered my 'take' on this is pretty much what I am feeling from being in close contact with the whole situation.

No problem with that, just surprised that your force seems to be pretty out of touch with the act (well as per my understanding of it - I'm no legal eagle and don't profess to be. It's a subject matter that interests me and I've read a fair bit about it.)

Quote
I am very worried with the whole lot being shifted over to Councils. I'll reiterate that I think the situations will evolve differently in various areas of the Country. Its 'suck it and see' I think.

Not sure that much is being shifted over to local councils, licensing issues currently fall down to them anyway, theres no changes there?

Quote
If I am anticipating problems I am sorry if you just consider that to be some sort of 'guess'. Its an informed view.

Having heard some of the bollocks spouted about it by various cheif constables is laughable. They seem to not have even read anything about the act. If thats the case, then the entire thing will turn out to be a shambles. If thats the case, then IMHO then it's more fat cat coppers to blame then the government.

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2005, 01:55:53 am »
I havn't very much of a clue what my Management think about anything. I turn up for work and do my own thing. But thats another story.

They obviously know about all these changes but ZERO feedback has been forthcoming to the idiots like me who will be affected by it. (But I read up on it of course).

Currently the licenses are granted by the Magistrates and big events every year are the 'Brewster' sessions in February. But its all going to the Councils now.

The Chief Constable thing is a myth really. On the ground decisions are taken by 'tasking groups' locally. Which consist of a few higher up folk in the station.

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2005, 02:01:50 am »
Anyway, time will tell.

Shame happy hours weren't aboloshed in the act, would have been great to have cheap ale permenently ;D.

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2005, 02:05:10 am »
You were like a dog with a bone there you twat.

Have you really got an interest in this or not?

Fuck the thread title as I'm bored with that anyway.

 :D

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2005, 02:18:27 am »
I do, the licensing act interests me and I have read a fair bit about it. It has great potential to be a fuck up and if it is, it's one of the few things that could get the government booted at the next GE. Iraq despite being a massive thing to many did fuck all, come the next general election that will all be forgotten so it's all down to the election and how many people are potentially fucked right off with people puking on their door steps at 4AM. Well assuming that Brown hasn't fucked up the economey.

Personally I think if local authorities deal with it in the way intended all will be rosy. Don't get me wrong though, for the first year or so, there will undoubtedly be chaos.

As for happy hours, if the act had aboloshed those, it would have been interesting to see what happened @ the albert and sandon etc given that the extortionate ale prices on match days are catered for by happy hours. Happy hours that last pretty much last 66 hours. Would those boozers give up their none match day trade and close or charge nice cheap non match day prices.

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2005, 02:23:22 am »
We used to have 'pig' days in Ludlow when I was in my 20's when one or two pubs opened in the afternoon for the benefit of local market traders who wanted a drink in the afternoon- on market days. I felt all dangerous exploiting that.

 ;D

Offline Ben S

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2005, 02:26:34 am »
Exploiting pigs  :o.

Right, deffo think it's my bed time, sorry to Millsie for taking his topic off topic, I'd spilit it but I can't be arsed.

Offline Roger

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2005, 02:27:45 am »
Exploiting pigs  :o.

Right, deffo think it's my bed time, sorry to Millsie for taking his topic off topic, I'd spilit it but I can't be arsed.

yeah. It went off topic. See you soon. Get some sleep.

 ;)

Offline Monkey Red

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2005, 04:03:32 pm »
I say we introduce Prohibition!
'It'll whisper to them of Liverpools five glorious European Cup victories"

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Blair disagrees with judges over organised crime and ASBOs
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2005, 07:14:44 pm »
I say we introduce Prohibition!

Easy to say when you live in Germany  :P
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