Author Topic: There is a very thin line between success and "failure"  (Read 1672 times)

Offline Reeves

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There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« on: April 30, 2002, 12:14:16 am »
At Liverpool Football Club, we've had our fair share of great managers.

It's also true to say that at Liverpool Football Club; we've had our fair share of great Managers keen on tantalising us with their great philosophical statements about football and life in general.

Shanks and GH are certainly up there with the best of them when it comes to the odd one liner, the classic quip, the cutting put-down or the romantic analogy.

But it was neither of these Shakespearianesq footballing wizards who can lay claim to maybe the most poignant and appropriate of football phrases.

"FOOTBALL IS A FUNNY OLD GAME"

For the above one line is most definitely true. Especially in the context of the very fine line between success and failure.

Firstly, it is very hard to define exactly what "Success" or "Failure" is.

One man's success is another mans failure and visa versa.

It looks as though we may finish third in the league. It looks as though we may finish on top of 89 other teams in the football league. We have already qualified for the money pot at the bottom of the Champions League rainbow next year. We have won 2 trophies this season and three last year, we have the European Footballer of the year on board, a young and talented squad, sound financial backing and yet some say this year, GH has failed.

Well if that’s what the failure lollipop tastes like, then there will be plenty of managers queuing up for a suck of it next year.

Imagine if the United board had bowed to fan pressure and agreed that Fergie was a failure after his first seven years eh? After 7 years, he probably was a failure. But would anybody dare call him a failure now????? NO. The reason being is that failure and success needs to be viewed over a period of time. Managers need to be given a chance and enough time upon witch to judge them.

Ship managers in and out every year and you end up like our neighbours across the park. Pathetic.

Success and failure is judged and perceived differently at different clubs. If the Barca manager doesn’t win anything in a season, then he’s unemployed in the summer. At Barca, it’s as simple as that. No time is given, no sympathy awarded. You are backed to the hilt, the money piled on the transfer table, but if you don’t buy the right players and fail to win, you’re fired. Some don’t even get until the end of the season.

Fortunately at Liverpool, our board isn’t quite as rash. They realise that building things the right way takes time. They’ve got the right man at the helm and have given him their total backing.

The same is true at Arsenal. I remember at the beginning of the season after an Arsenal loss, some fan on the radio [what is it with me and these radio morons eh??!]
Phoned up to say that Arsene should be sacked. “What’s he done since we won the double?” he said. “Arsene’s failure to buy a poacher in the Fowler mould will cost us, mark my words”. Oh well, a season on, and with the advantage of hindsight, that Arsenal fan has clearly been proven wrong. The @rse look like the double is theirs for the taking and that radio Gooner is probably bouncing around London somewhere singing the bosses praises.

You see we as fans are a fickle bunch.

It is a very thin line between success and failure [and even when we succeed by building, some short sighted fans don’t see it as success].

Last year when we won all the cups we were lucky.

We did not win the cups purely out of luck, but we did enjoy some of it. Every successful team needs luck and we are no exception. SHz 2 handballs in the FA cup final could have been spotted by the ref, Roma could have had a penalty at Anfield etc etc.

Without that luck, or if MO’s goal effort in the FA cup had gone wide, we would not have done as well. You get the picture. It’s quite ironic that in this multi million pound industry, careers, a country’s happiness and ultimately which side of the success and failure line a team falls can be determined so accidentely or easily.

If Emile’s header had gone in at Spurs, followed by big Sammi’s header and then the Riise header, you’d all be praising GH and asking him if he is Shankly’s reincarnation once more. But those goals didn’t go in, and so instead of success, we are a failure. The doom merchants are out, GH has a boring style of play, Emile is rubbish once more, we desperately need width, the boys at the back have no pace, Michael aint the same since his hamstring injury and he’s saving himself for the world cup, GH has no tactical acumen, Thommo is just a loud mouth, Vladdy’s a girl and Danny Murphy…..well you’re getting the picture.

You see it’s a very thin line between success and failure and the manager always bears the brunt. I’ve no problem there, as they understand this pressure. If they can’t take the heat, they leave, just ask Kenny. The Anfield Hotseat is highly pressurised. Is Kenny quitting and having two managers with heart problems in the last ten years purely coincidence I ask you? But we as fans win when we win, and when we lose it’s the managers fault!

I’m rambling again as I always do, but the gist of what I am trying to draw attention to is that sometimes there is so little difference between success and failure and that we as fans must try and distance ourselves a little [impossible I know], rationalise when things go wrong without slagging off everybody and anybody and appreciate and enjoy success without building up our aspirations and hopes too much or we’ll only hurt ourselves in the end.

Let us be objective, calm and collected in our judgement, not get too carried away, too over the top and try and visualise the bigger picture.

If we lose a game, lets not all come on these boards and go bezerk, as we WILL lose games again. Let us be POSITIVE and visualise that bigger picture.

Was it a defeat at Spurs or 1 defeat in the last 15?

Are we in a better position than when Roy left? Yes or No?

Answer = YES.

I rest my case.

So lets chill out, appreciate that there will be lots of downs as well as ups in our roller-coaster pursuit to Football’s summit, keep our fingers crossed and enjoy the ride.

REEVES@YOULL-NEVER-WALK-ALONE.CO.UK
« Last Edit: April 30, 2002, 12:21:36 am by REEVES »
..........IS MEASURED ONLY BY SUCCESS"

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Offline Farman

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2002, 02:12:23 am »
Absolutely spot-on. As usual.  :)
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Offline Roger

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2002, 06:35:53 am »
Already reached our PL points total of last year. Could be 6 points better off in 2 weeks time. I rest my case!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2002, 07:59:55 am by roger »

Offline KFC

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2002, 06:52:24 am »
Yes that is exactly what my thoughts are.

I think the competition on the highest level now is so fierce that no single team (you might say Real Madrid but still they probably will lose out to Valencia in La Liga) can dominate the competitions year-in-year-out anymore.  Even Real Madrid can loses out in all the competitions given their squad this year.

What I am trying to say is this:  since the line between success / failure is so thin we can no longer expect the club to deliver silverware every year.  We could, however, expect the club and the team to put them into the position so that we COULD WIN some silverware every year.

Could we win the Premiership this year?  Surely we could since we are just 2 games away from that.

Could we win the Champions League this year?  Surely we could since we are 10 minutes from the semi-final.

I am not sure what you all think but I would be happy if each year we can be in the 3-horse race come April and in quarter-final of Champions League, because what it means is we can probably get 1 Premiership title every 3 years and then 1 Champions League trophy probably every 5-8 years.

What Man United does in the 90s is phenomenal but it is because the others teams are still running the teams in 1980s mode (including us).  Now most team has catched up and I don't think their dominance can continue.  They will still be there for the foreseeable future but so are Arsenal / us / Chelsea and arguably, Leeds.
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Offline 4pool

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2002, 01:39:52 pm »
What gets me is all of our loyal subjects harping on players that pull the Red shirt on if they have a bad match, as every player has. No one will have a 9 out of 10 match every game.

Has it ever occured to those who whigne about a particular player, that in doing so you are questioning the managers acumen at putting the best 11 out there?
He knows who has a knock, who needs resting, who should be given a runout, who he wants v the other teams style of play v their expected 11. He takes these things into consideration whether it is GH himself or Thommo when he was running things.

When we lose or draw v a 'weaker' team...is it the managers fault? Or is it because the players on the day, collectively, didn't get the job done. Do you think they went out on the pitch at 3pm and said, screw it let's get this over with and go home. I doubt any match where we dropped points the players didn't give their all. it may have looked that way to some. But let's give the other side some credit for raising their game to beat us and our players, collectively, not being able to pull it off.

So during the close season Ged will bring in players he thinks will fit into HIS system. He will attempt to find those that will add to our existing group and tweak the finer points of his system. Does that mean wide flair midfielders? I doubt it, unless they can defend.  ;D
Will Owen's pace benefit from wide attacking style? There's your answer.

I think GH will bring in ball winners and those that can split the defense with a shrewd pass. Those that can hang onto posession of the ball and give our side a chance to quickly build an attack. Not some winger who throws crosses into the box. If you follow what GH is trying to do with the team, you may get a sense of what type of player he's after. And i bet he doesn't play Championship Manager....lol
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Offline Shaky Jake

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2002, 02:05:22 pm »
Quote
Has it ever occured to those who whigne about a particular player, that in doing so you are questioning the managers acumen at putting the best 11 out there?


Yes. Wouldn't these boards be pretty fucking dull if we didn't? Isn't speculating and discussing the inevitable outcome of having two fans in the same room- virtual or otherwise?


Fan1: Ged's ace isn't he? Couldn't possibly write anything else. That would be heresy!
Fan2: Yes. All praise to Houllier.
Fan3: I agree! I agree!


"In Ged We Trust" - but it doesn't mean we can't express opinions that are contrary to what Ged's appear to be.

Having said that, the man is The Man. Taking us forward every season. These are great times to be a Liverpool supporter - just rewards for suffering through the Souness years.

Some opinions on the most controversial issues of the season:
1) I think we need to progress as an attacking force. We are currently one-dimensional and overly reliant on Michael Owen
2) Smicer (bless 'im) doesn't cut it as any kind of midfielder attacking or defensive
3) I'd like to see Litmanen given a lot of chances to find his Liverpool form during pre-season
4) I'd like to see us sign 2 other midfielders who can both pass the ball and defend. I'd like at least one of them to be able to run at people as well.
5) Anelka has got to stay - as long as he is prepared to fit in with the club's wage policy
6) Selling Fowler was the right thing to do
7) Xavier will turn out to be an inspired buy

With that, I'll be off to the pub!

Hyvää Wappua!

(we have the 1st of May holidays in Finland... BIG party  ;) )

SJ
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Offline archie

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2002, 02:34:08 pm »
i agree with you mate
i posted my rant yesterday probably at the risk of upsetting some people.
and reeves mate you  also make valid points and of course i realise how much we have progressed.
indeed the spurs game was 1 defeat in 15 but it was probably the manner of the defeat that upset me the most,not because spurs played well (that's what they are paid to do).
it was the ineptness of our display after 20 minutes
spurs probably had more of the ball in the last 10 minutes than they had all game. when we should have been putting them to the sword.
anyone watching who didn't feel irate at the end has to be lying surely?????
we all know that we are not the full way there and that some players aren't good enough,no matter what they have done in the past or how much we admire their persoanl qualities/endeavour/commitment to the reds.
if they don't cut the mustard they will have to step aside for better quality.
for example paddy is one of my favourite players of the recent liverpool past but i think his time is up.harsh but true and if he does leave i will be disappointed but also realistic.
the line is fine that is true but constantly looking on the bright side gets a bit frustrating.
that's why i felt compelled, as a passionate fan who longs for the day we lift that 19th, just to get it out of my system.
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Offline Shaky Jake

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2002, 02:49:12 pm »
There's a great story (and I'm sorry I can't remember the player's name, but I rememebr him recounting it on the telly or radio) of Shankly signing a player in the 60s.

Said player was a defender and Shanks took him under his wing, gave him chances and backed him for several seasons. Then out of the blue he was told that another club had come in for him and that he had to leave. The player was upset, confused and wanted to know what he'd done wrong. Shankly just said:

"I'm sorry son, you're just not a winner anymore"

It takes a ruthless, forceful man to run a successful football club. I thought of the Shankly story when Sander (great bloke) went and when Jamie went. Roy Evans couldn't do it to Digger or Rushie in time. But I think that over the summer a few players will come to understand that Houllier definitely has the stones for the job. I think Paddy will be packing his bags (in my opinion rightly), also Barmby and Jari (both wrongly in my opinion). I have a hunch that Vladi will stay (wrongly in my opinion), because Ged seems to have a lot of faith in him. Of course if he does stay I'll be very happy if he's voted footballer of the year next spring  ;D Would be great if he proved me wrong.

Now I really am going to the pub...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2002, 02:57:18 pm by ShakyJake »
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Offline Shaky Jake

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2002, 03:13:46 pm »
I just thought of something else. When I was at University, although I didn't study management or business I did take a couple of courses. One lecture stuck out on my mind...

The lecturer was this Northern-Irish bloke and his subject was something like Management and Leadership. Asking the question: What does it take to be a good manager?

And it turned out he was a red and one of his examples was LFC...  

His point was that in order to be truly successful, great managers in whatever field take decisions, based on conviction, that sometimes mystify those around them. This is because they see the root causes of problems before the symptoms become apparent.

Another example was John Harvey Jones predicting that ICI was about to "fall off a cliff" in the 80s, when it was still profitable. Nobody listened to him until after it fell off the cliff- and Jones was appointed Chairman.

But back to the reds... he also used Kenny Dalgish's decision to drop Peter Beardsley to the bench in the (now I hope I've got my facts straight!) 1989-90 season. The decision mystified the fans. But we still won the title partly due to a large injection of goals from a tricky little Israeli dude...

But the lecturer's point is that by the time things are starting to go wrong, it's too late. You're already losing money or dropping points. So the skill of great management is to take good decisions even before others can see how things are shaping up.

I think that applies to what happened to Sander and also in other situations e.g. Jari, Vladi. Who knows?

So, I don't think it's wrong to question he manager, but I totally support the guy too, because I think he has this ability to see the bigger picture rather than whether or not Jari should be playing etc.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2002, 03:18:16 pm by ShakyJake »
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Offline 4pool

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Re:There is a very thin line between success and "failure"
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2002, 06:42:08 pm »
Oh..don't get me wrong. After every match that LFC don't perform up to 'our' expectations..the whigners will be out.

My point is, it's "after the fact". If a manager could predict before hand that the team will underperform, then he'd be a genius!

What i'm trying to point out is that GH or Thommo put out their best 11 on the day to beat who we we're playing. It was up to them to perform. Whether Smicer starts or Jari or Berger or Carra or Murphy or Riise or Xavier or Heskey or Anelka or on and on.... They know what they want tactics wise out of the squad. The players are told prematch to go and....
It's up to the players to perform, score, and keep clean sheets.

GH certainly didn't want us to lose to Spurs. Neither did the players. That's my point. You don't think the players didn't want to score and just lose. That's why it's so ridiculous to post some of the remarks that come out after a match...when you stop and think about it. They just didn't get the job done. Not to mention Spurs were trying to stop us from scoring... ;)..so they won that battle. GH threw every option at Spurs. What i don't want to hear is ..well Jari only got 8 minutes. Well..GH knows that. Doesn't he? If Jari starts and we don't score, i don't read..well Heskey should have played and used his strenght or Anelka should have started and used his pace. When we lose it's pisses us off. But i bet it pisses off the players more. And if it doesn't , GH will send those who take losing for granted packing.

So let's not slag the players ( especially at the match). I'll leave it to GH to sort out who fits in his system and who he needs to make it better. After all, that's his job not mine.....or even yours!  ;D Unless you play Championship Manager....lol
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