Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD - 2023 (FSG posts = get muted)

[Devon Red]

Thoughts on Mbeumo? He's less high profile this season after injury, but proven to score and assist at this level. Only 24, left footer. Should be more affordable this summer than he would have been last year.

[mullyred94]

Depends on the metrics we are using to define better here. But let’s say that Darwin is better, I’m sure Isak would have scored plenty more if he played for Liverpool than Darwin this season. I do agree there’s a lot I like with Darwin that Isak doesn’t have. He’s a great chance creator. For himself and others. As evident in the amount of assists he’s provided compared to Isak.

Isak is a much better finisher, much better technique and kinda similar pace probably between them. I like Darwin’s enthusiasm on the pitch whereas Isak can look a bit passive at times. But put Isak with all the chances Darwin has had this season and we could look at a 30 pl goal player.

So it depends on how much we value finishing and goals over other factors. Usually in football having someone win games for you with goals is quite useful.

Does a Jurgen Klopp team have a striker that just gets involved in the final touch?

Or is there multiple things expected of the striker?

Honest question.

[CraigDS]

Swap Nunez with the Suarez of the first two season with us and we would have walked the league this year.

Swap Salah for the Salah of the first two seasons with us and we would have walked the league this year. Same goes for VVD.

[Egyptian36]

Comical

How so?

Players availability is key to winning the leauge and we have a poor record.

We replaced Gini with a an injury prone player, we were late to refresh our midfield until we found ourselves in a situation where we needed to get three midfielders in one window including panic buying Endo. Thats bad planning. We replaced our false 9 with a traditional striker then discovered the team can't play with one and went to buy a false 9 again because again of bad planning with the midfield. We are talking about how we need more productive wide forward despite having Diaz and I assume you don't think Nunez is good enough. It obvious where it went wrong.

[Garlic Red]

How so?

Players availability is key to winning the leauge and we have a poor record.

We replaced Gini with a an injury prone player, we were late to refresh our midfield until we found ourselves in a situation where we needed to get three midfielders in one window including panic buying Endo. Thats bad planning. We replaced our false 9 with a traditional striker then discovered the team can't play with one and went to buy a false 9 again because again of bad planning with the midfield. We are talking about how we need more productive wide forward despite having Diaz and I assume you don't think Nunez is good enough. It obvious where it went wrong.

The play style being too intense is bollocks. Every top side in the league plays intense football. Instantly blaming a medical department for every injury when so much of it is random and difficult to predict. Was it their fault Robbo done his shoulder for Scotland? The Brentford player landed on Jota? Jones got snapped in the same game and went off? Salah pulled up for Egypt during the same period? That Bajcetic has had growing pains? Matip did his knee? Trent hyperextended his knee?

Nobody was saying our intense football was too much when Mane/Salah/Firmino/Gini/Virgil were barely missing a minute for full seasons. Injuries happen, a lot of it’s luck and we’ve done more than enough to try and control that luck this season and still been hammered.

The club have made mistakes, no question, but how many of them were avoidable/predictable and how many of them were just the nature of the sport? Was anybody saying we needed a more productive winger when Diaz came in and usurped Mane and Jota?

People are acting like the club’s a walking fuck up, we’ve had a great season that’s been mired by poor fortune and a bit of inexperience. Recency bias makes you think that every decision has been shite when 8 months ago everyone was saying this is year 1 again, get top 4 and have a good run on the cups. We do that and now we’re revising every decision for the last god knows how many years because we think we know better when we don’t.

[BER]

Why didn't we just sign Harry Kane last year?

[red mongoose]

Why didn't we just sign Harry Kane last year?

Because of the "No Dickheads" policy, sub-section 41B: "No big, brave, horse-faced trophy repellents."

[A Red Abroad]

Because of the "No Dickheads" policy, sub-section 41B: "No big, brave, horse-faced trophy repellents."

And... the fee for his pet tongue was extortionate.

 

[kop306]

20 goals for isak this season

[PeterTheRed ...]

20 goals for isak this season

Isak:

33 goals and 4 assists in 4.337 minutes of football for Newcastle.

Nunez:

33 goals and 17 assists in 5.342 minutes of football for LFC.

I understand that Isak is the flavor of the month, but no person with a footballing knowledge would swap Nunez for Isak. Especially not Edwards, who knows very well the potential of Nunez. Not to mention that Isak is more injury prone than Nunez ...

[mullyred94]

Isak:

33 goals and 4 assists in 4.337 minutes of football for Newcastle.

Nunez:

33 goals and 17 assists in 5.342 minutes of football for LFC.

I understand that Isak is the flavor of the month, but no person with a footballing knowledge would swap Nunez for Isak. Especially not Edwards, who knows very well the potential of Nunez. Not to mention that Isak is more injury prone than Nunez ...

Nor suits the style of gameplay that Klopp wants and apparently what Slot will want too...

[istvan kozma]

Isak:

33 goals and 4 assists in 4.337 minutes of football for Newcastle.

Nunez:

33 goals and 17 assists in 5.342 minutes of football for LFC.

I understand that Isak is the flavor of the month, but no person with a footballing knowledge would swap Nunez for Isak. Especially not Edwards, who knows very well the potential of Nunez. Not to mention that Isak is more injury prone than Nunez ...

Ok 

[mullyred94]

Ok 

When was the last time a Klopp team had a 9 that only got involved as a poacher?

[plura]

Does a Jurgen Klopp team have a striker that just gets involved in the final touch?

Or is there multiple things expected of the striker?

Honest question.

Idk, I think Jurgen is not a static manager so he can and will adapt to some extent. But no, I don't think Klopp would perhaps go for Isak as his primary target.
I do think a forward line with more involved contributors like Diaz and maybe Salah next to him, and Isak being a lethal finisher it would work out alright. Look people love to jump on to comments as major beliefs, I merely said I believe Isak would score up to 30 league goals in our side. The rest of the side, I think he's too passive, as I mentioned.

[plura]

Ok 

No need to always entertain him

[Hazell]

Isak:

33 goals and 4 assists in 4.337 minutes of football for Newcastle.

Nunez:

33 goals and 17 assists in 5.342 minutes of football for LFC.

I understand that Isak is the flavor of the month, but no person with a footballing knowledge would swap Nunez for Isak. Especially not Edwards, who knows very well the potential of Nunez. Not to mention that Isak is more injury prone than Nunez ...

Glad you're back just in time for the transfer window Mac

[plura]

Isak wasn’t either

27 games and 20 goals so far. With Newcastle. It's not wild to think he'd score more here, we do average 0.7 more xg per game than them. We have the greatest xg in the league, and thus probably the leading side wasting chances. It's not crazy to think he'd be at 25 ish here already.

[mullyred94]

27 games and 20 goals so far. With Newcastle. It's not wild to think he'd score more here, we do average 0.7 more xg per game than them. We have the greatest xg in the league, and thus probably the leading side wasting chances. It's not crazy to think he'd be at 25 ish here already.

He has 15 goals from open play though, with 1 assist.

From open play Nunez has 11 and 8.

I wouldn't be against Isak or that ilk up top with Nunez playing off him on the left but I honestly don't think he would have suited the team Klopp built because as a CF he I don't think he would create as much for Salah as Nunez has.

How is he off the ball as well, could we afford to have him and Salah up top with just one other forward pressing?

Can Liverpools Klopp afford two players who aren't good defending from the front?

[mikey_LFC]

Are the goals from our front line a problem? I’d guess they’re scoring a similar number to what they normally do as a unit, it’s just spread across more players. Haven’t looked at it exactly but all in double figures and our overall team scoring numbers are up there with anyone in all comps. It’s only in this later phase of the season that any problem has even been raised, and that’s not a problem will sustain in the long term.

[RedG13]

Are the goals from our front line a problem? I’d guess they’re scoring a similar number to what they normally do as a unit, it’s just spread across more players. Haven’t looked at it exactly but all in double figures and our overall team scoring numbers are up there with anyone in all comps. It’s only in this later phase of the season that any problem has even been raised, and that’s not a problem will sustain in the long term.

They underperforming in terms of scoring but it very clearly the best attack in the PL in terms of how much is created etc

[mullyred94]

They underperforming in terms of scoring but it very clearly the best attack in the PL in terms of how much is created etc

We've scored the least out of the top 3 but also given up the most goals.

Few goals from the forward line would help but also given up so many soft and sloppy goals would have helped.

Depends what you view as more important.

[Egyptian36]

After a bit of scouting purely based on numbers I found a player who I think will be a good defensive midfielder in the future and his name makes you feel he is a character from the The Sopranos. Johnny Cardoso.

[KC7]

Swap Salah for the Salah of the first two seasons with us and we would have walked the league this year. Same goes for VVD.

Virgil, POTY contention when we were top six weeks ago, has nothing to do with where we are. None of the defence does. He's had an excellent season as has Quansah.

Virgil played in the second half of the 2017-2018 season, we conceded 38 goals (with 3 games left in this one we have conceded 36 goals)
He played in the two semi finals of the CL vs Roma which finished 7-6 on agg (had the game gone on 10 minutes longer extra time was likely).

Defensively our levels now are similar to then, the difference is in between, and that's a watertight midfield with Fabinho as the defensive screen.

We conceded 22 goals in Fabinho's first season.

When Fabinho was taken from midfield and put in defence the season when we had no senior CB with the owners having destroyed our season in the January window, we lost 6 on the bounce. When Fabinho was put back in midfield (with Hendo also), we went on a title winning level run with the might of Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips as our CB pairing.

When Fabinhp fell off a cliff in the 22-23 season, we fell off a cliff. Alisson has never been busier.

This season we have only added a slow 30 year old last ditch bargain basement signing whom Crystal Palace targeted twice, one who leaves our 8s having to stay close to him to protect him so as not to expose his lack of mobility (which in turn impacts their game, leaving them knackered in having to carry the workload of the slow 6). Without a quality standard of defensive protection in midfield we have been ropey in every game this season bar maybe five.

The ease with which teams have been able to get to our back line this season is the prime reason we are on the beach. It's actually been amazing that we were able to be competitive for as long as we have as the number of comebacks we have had in accumulating almost 30 points in doing so is freakish. This wing and a prayer type game wasn't sustaintable though.

We failed in the 22 summer window which then left us too much to do in the last one. Trying to rebuild an entire midfield in one window has never been done before. We were looking for a miracle this season, so realistically we should be grateful with 3rd and a Cup. Its not enough for a manager of the standard of Jurgen, but he didn't help himself by reeling off those 8 "midfielders" in August 2022 (maybe only two of which were good enough at that stage) in an attempt to assuage the fears of those saying we needed midfield additions. I will add the caveat to that in that financially its likely his hands were tied under the current owners as they often have been. He then added an injury prone last ditch bargain basement loan signing.

Failure to strengthen what is an especially vital position for a Jurgen Klopp side which presses high, leaves gaps, thus needs someone putting out fires, has effectively watered down his last two seasons here

[Garlic Red]

Without wanting to open up old wounds as we’ve been around the houses on this topic probably more than any other. If the owners were/are to blame for the lack of defensive midfielder, why did they allow the manager to pursue Tchouameni, Caicedo and Lavia? Why have we signed two forwards and four midfielders in that time and none of them have been an elite 6?

I’m not sure you can blame the owners for a failure on the footballing side to convince either of the three listed above to join.

The season we played Fab centre half, I agree it was a balls up, but I think the idea was he’d play 10-15 games there as fourth choice, we signed Thiago and kept Gini for the final year, meaning we were stocked enough in midfield to cover Fab playing a few games at the back over the course of a season. The issue obviously arose when we lost all three centre halves. We decided to wait for Konate in that summer as Leipzig wouldn’t sell to us as we’d drew them in the last 16. Could we have signed another defender on top even with Konate in the pipeline? Maybe, yeah, but there probably weren’t many/any good ones available in January.

[KC7]

Could top of the table Liverpool, who were without any centre backs as it hit January 1, signed CBs and given themselves a shot at winning the league (with fans in the stadium to see it), with owners who actually backed the manager the answer is bleedin obvious.

Without question the worst transfer window of any club since the inception of the window. To not have any senior CB. The only situation "more desperate" is not having any senior Goalkeepers, and in that situation it is mandatory you act (which automatically makes it less desperate).

The image that really does it for me is Andy Robertson being interviewed on LFTCV after either the boxing day game or the one after it (we were at home, cannot be arsed checking which one it was), and he responded to a question by saying how amazing the team had done in December under the circumstances with hopefully help coming in in the window.

There was no help. What they had done was in vain.

Jurgen having to tell a stunned press room that signing a CB was "unlikely" in his first press conference days after the window had opened, before letting out some frustration (exceptionally rare for Jurgen who is an employers dream) three weeks later by mentioning restrictions. This "right one" is bollocks, we played with two CB in Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips who were barely second tier league standard. Nobody on the planet would say they either were "the right one".


From the beginning of December when all our senior CB were confirmed out for the season we should have spent the next three weeks planning behind the scenes for when that window opened to have two CB be sat in a press conference with Jurgen on 1 January, like any competent football club that is serious about being successful.

What they did guaranteed we would not be successful.

[Garlic Red]

I enjoyed the Neville-esque opening to that, too of the table Liverpool sounds really good when you’re about for make a statement.

We’d lost Matip at the end of January, not in December, it doesn’t make it any more ‘right’ but your facts are clearly a little hazy.

As I said, the club had lined Konate up for the summer, the plan was in place to go with Matip/Fabinho, only for Matip to then get injured in the game at Spurs, which forced the panic buys of Davies and Kabak. Poor signings but low risk.

[NightDancer]

When was the last time a Klopp team had a 9 that only got involved as a poacher?

Lewandowski?


Maybe Aubameyang (when Klopp used him as a 9 and not out wide) or Barrios.

[mullyred94]

Lewandowski?


Maybe Aubameyang (when Klopp used him as a 9 and not out wide) or Barrios.

I'd argue they get involved in the attack more than Isak does but that still proves my point.

That was 10 years ago, what happened to Benteke when Klopp came?

[RedG13]

We've scored the least out of the top 3 but also given up the most goals.

Few goals from the forward line would help but also given up so many soft and sloppy goals would have helped.

Depends what you view as more important.

And have the highest NPXG it very clear best attack and worst defense of the 3 but the defense needs to improve to like 30-35 XGA which is  very doable. Not having consistent lineups have no helped also. Goals are way more important then defense. Defense difference should be marginal. 1 goal=1 point normally on avg.

[KC7]

*after checking, Matip didn't get injured until late January which put him out for the season (so we had one senior CB on 1 Jan)

That doesn't reduce it to one. We needed two CB through the door on 1 January. That was the expectation at the time.

We sat on our backside and did nothing and the freefall commenced.

[NightDancer]

I'd argue they get involved in the attack more than Isak does but that still proves my point.

That was 10 years ago, what happened to Benteke when Klopp came?

Oh I am not arguing the type of striker Klopp might want in his team were he staying on at all.

I was just throwing out the names of the guys that matched what was asked in the question, and showing that it was some years back.
As for the type of striker, if we want an out and out striker, we are going to have going forward. I have no idea who Slot will  want to get in or if he thinks we already have the guy he wants.

[Knight]

Could top of the table Liverpool, who were without any centre backs as it hit January 1, signed CBs and given themselves a shot at winning the league (with fans in the stadium to see it), with owners who actually backed the manager the answer is bleedin obvious.

Without question the worst transfer window of any club since the inception of the window. To not have any senior CB. The only situation "more desperate" is not having any senior Goalkeepers, and in that situation it is mandatory you act (which automatically makes it less desperate).

The image that really does it for me is Andy Robertson being interviewed on LFTCV after either the boxing day game or the one after it (we were at home, cannot be arsed checking which one it was), and he responded to a question by saying how amazing the team had done in December under the circumstances with hopefully help coming in in the window.

There was no help. What they had done was in vain.

Jurgen having to tell a stunned press room that signing a CB was "unlikely" in his first press conference days after the window had opened, before letting out some frustration (exceptionally rare for Jurgen who is an employers dream) three weeks later by mentioning restrictions. This "right one" is bollocks, we played with two CB in Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips who were barely second tier league standard. Nobody on the planet would say they either were "the right one".


From the beginning of December when all our senior CB were confirmed out for the season we should have spent the next three weeks planning behind the scenes for when that window opened to have two CB be sat in a press conference with Jurgen on 1 January, like any competent football club that is serious about being successful.

What they did guaranteed we would not be successful.

This is absolutely bang on and the continual refusal to acknowledge how badly Klopp was let down by the owners will, in the long term, go down as the great, ‘what if’ of this era.

[Garlic Red]

*after checking, Matip didn't get injured until late January which put him out for the season (so we had one senior CB on 1 Jan)

That doesn't reduce it to one. We needed two CB through the door on 1 January. That was the expectation at the time.

We sat on our tod and did nothing and the freefall commenced.

The problem with squad planning and being run sustainably is you can’t just make signings for the sake of making signings. Every decision has to be made with medium to long term planning in place, that’s how we match Man City, by not blowing money on short term fixes and always maximising value. It was a frustrating window but I could understand why we waited for Konate. That period of results was only exasperated by the loss of Henderson in midfield too. The free fall wasn’t just due to a lack of centre backs, the forwards were piss poor during that period, going through a barren spell not too dissimilar to the one the current lot are going through now.

But our recipe for success under Jurgen has always been waiting for the right player and trying to get the best player we can. When it comes off it’s brilliant (Virgil, Konate) but when you fail to land the players, it leaves you looking foolish and borderline arrogant.

I’m no ownership apologist, I just think it’s naive and childish to insinuate they would intentionally hold the club back from signing a quality player. They wouldn’t, they’ve backed the manager throughout his time here, but they won’t compromise on quality, nor would the manager, and they wouldn’t allow for bad investments. The lack of 6 signing isn’t down to the ownership, as much as you want to swing the debate to go back over January 2021. The original point was regarding a 6 and I’m not sure you can blame them for three failed (public) pursuits, one of which was set to be a British transfer record.

[...]

Virgil, POTY contention when we were top six weeks ago, has nothing to do with where we are. None of the defence does. He's had an excellent season as has Quansah.

Virgil played in the second half of the 2017-2018 season, we conceded 38 goals (with 3 games left in this one we have conceded 36 goals)
He played in the two semi finals of the CL vs Roma which finished 7-6 on agg (had the game gone on 10 minutes longer extra time was likely).

Defensively our levels now are similar to then, the difference is in between, and that's a watertight midfield with Fabinho as the defensive screen.

We conceded 22 goals in Fabinho's first season.

When Fabinho was taken from midfield and put in defence the season when we had no senior CB with the owners having destroyed our season in the January window, we lost 6 on the bounce. When Fabinho was put back in midfield (with Hendo also), we went on a title winning level run with the might of Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips as our CB pairing.

When Fabinhp fell off a cliff in the 22-23 season, we fell off a cliff. Alisson has never been busier.

This season we have only added a slow 30 year old last ditch bargain basement signing whom Crystal Palace targeted twice, one who leaves our 8s having to stay close to him to protect him so as not to expose his lack of mobility (which in turn impacts their game, leaving them knackered in having to carry the workload of the slow 6). Without a quality standard of defensive protection in midfield we have been ropey in every game this season bar maybe five.

The ease with which teams have been able to get to our back line this season is the prime reason we are on the beach. It's actually been amazing that we were able to be competitive for as long as we have as the number of comebacks we have had in accumulating almost 30 points in doing so is freakish. This wing and a prayer type game wasn't sustaintable though.

We failed in the 22 summer window which then left us too much to do in the last one. Trying to rebuild an entire midfield in one window has never been done before. We were looking for a miracle this season, so realistically we should be grateful with 3rd and a Cup. Its not enough for a manager of the standard of Jurgen, but he didn't help himself by reeling off those 8 "midfielders" in August 2022 (maybe only two of which were good enough at that stage) in an attempt to assuage the fears of those saying we needed midfield additions. I will add the caveat to that in that financially its likely his hands were tied under the current owners as they often have been. He then added an injury prone last ditch bargain basement loan signing.

Failure to strengthen what is an especially vital position for a Jurgen Klopp side which presses high, leaves gaps, thus needs someone putting out fires, has effectively watered down his last two seasons here

Agree with this completely, but think you're being harsh on Endo.

[KC7]

This is absolutely bang on and the continual refusal to acknowledge how badly Klopp was let down by the owners will, in the long term, go down as the great, ‘what if’ of this era.

The major problem is, Jurgen is a smashing fella, to his own detriment on this in that he would never call them out on this or complain. He got on with it, which meant he was then judged accordingly without the rightful caveat of his hands being tied taken into account.

He is now being critiqued as being "tactically naive" in the media. The man is a genius given the hand he has been dealt.

Does anyone genuinely think that Jurgen Klopp would, without servere restrictions, sign a Kabak, a Ben Davies, an Artbur Melo, or an Endo?

The first two (late loan and 500k) were from the wrecked 2020-21 season. The next one (late loan) was from the wrecked 2022-23 season. And the last one, having "tried" (I'll wait to see that money (which is "still there", if it ever was there) being available for Slot before confirming the legitimacy of that completely uncharacteristic bid from these owners) to bring in a DM late in the window, ended up signing an obscure 30 yo fella (who cannot run) for just over 10% of that alleged bid, in what ultimately is an ok season, but far short of what one of the best managers in the world should be accepting.

[...]

This is absolutely bang on and the continual refusal to acknowledge how badly Klopp was let down by the owners will, in the long term, go down as the great, ‘what if’ of this era.

Same with Rafa to an extent, no? Look at the calibre of players he wanted. Granted, he had some shockers too.

[kop306]

endo is a good squad player

to win the league you need somebody of rodri class

i wanted isak before nunez for those of you that want to carry on that argument

[Chris~]

Our record for goals conceded with and without Fabinho was pretty identical in 18/19  and if you compare 17/18 with and without Van Dijk there is quite the improvement (odd to use full season comparison for players who started 14 and 21 games in those seasons) getting Van Dijk and Alisson was the biggest difference maker to our defence. Two absolute elite players in the box was massive for us.

[KC7]

Agree with this completely, but think you're being harsh on Endo.

If we are weak in a key position do we ignore it?

That's what it boils down to.

You cannot carry any weaknesses if you aspire to be successful. We have one of the two (or three) best managers in the world, and it's a bloody waste by not giving him the tools to work to the best of his ability. That was a "having to make do" signing, it's nowhere near good enough. The team has been hamstrung all season by having to protect the slow 6. We got exposed big time.

[KC7]

endo is a good squad player

to win the league you need somebody of rodri class

i wanted isak before nunez for those of you that want to carry on that argument

Not sure I agree with the squad option either. The same was said of Milner towards the end, a "closer" type, but his legs had gone that when he came on he was still getting done.

36 year old Milner looked more mobile than Endo.

We haven't been a pressing machine in midfield in two years, and that's because it isn't mobile enough (the 8s are now, but the 6 isnt). We have been passive, easily bullied (Palace twice...the game at their place but for the sending off (and it was a weak one) we never looked like getting back level, and the first half at Anfield, the fella shouldn't have been anywhere near the team sheet), and overrun (Atalanta was a disgrace). The two games at OT, the gaps galore in midifield allowed a pathetic United to get through too easily without having to do much). One hook over his head by Casimiro into oceans of space infront of the defence (no DM in sight, eventually you see him chasing back behind the runners as per usual). Even the breakaway in the cup, when Harvey sliced the ball, United broke.,..and the wee 30 year fella was in his familiar role of seeing the back of opponents shirts (he saw it again vs West Ham, one for which he got booked by dragging the player back).

Squad player should mean good options off the bench, players who can enhance the team performance when they enter the field. He's not terrible. He's tidy on the ball, his heart and effort is there, but we need alot more than a player in a key position, a pivotal position, who wouldn't get in a top 10 PL side. This league is too quick to carry passengers. I think I'm being generous by limiting it to the top 10, as I dont think he would get in the Everton side. Gueye, no way he is a better player than him.