Topic: Labour Thread

[Circa1892]

Weren't they Far Right fascists and nothing to do with The Labour Party? 🤔

We all remember the day we woke up, signed up for a football forum and had to make the decision of whether to mark our first post talking about the relative merits of Gerrard, Souness and Biscan or instead joining an old cyclical argument in the forums sub-forum Labour thread.

[reddebs]

You'll get one next election. Probably. They might not do very much but they'll be there. And it'll be better than the Tories, because that what they've positioned themselves to be - a better version of the Tories. Not to challenge any of the Tory assumptions about the country, the economy or society.

That's the issue, there's only so long you can bodge it before everyone realises the system itself needs some serious structural change (lots of people already have) rather than just some meaningless PR fluff about your 'missions' or your tool-making Dad or the size of your flag.

And if you block that change coming from the left, then people are just going to inevitably turn to the right. Which is always bad news.

Change to the system like what mate?  Are the left campaigning on different policies to the party? 

That last paragraph doesn't make sense either.  Do you mean the far left will become racist fascists to somehow get their own way 🤷 

[Father Ted]

Change to the system like what mate?  Are the left campaigning on different policies to the party? 

That last paragraph doesn't make sense either.  Do you mean the far left will become racist fascists to somehow get their own way 🤷 

No I mean the electorate will look for solutions, to a system that's fucked and failing them.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What difference did he make? Seriously. Seems like it was all wiped away in an instant the minute the coalition took charge. What are people meant to do, burn their cherished pictures of ye old Sure Start centres for warmth to get them through the fifteen years until Labour decide they've got a right-wing enough Leader to actually pull behind? The economy fucking exploded and killed that style of politics stone dead, wiping away any good feelings most people might have had. And I'm not saying that was Labour's fault, although it does seem like a massive rebuttal to their 'let the market decide' mantra.

You read like you've swallowed some cliched Labour right book about those glorious Britpoppin', New Labour days and are just regurgitating it randomly into the thread. It was shite, a wasted opportunity. Being better than the Tories isn't exactly some miraculous achievement only St. Tone could deliver, they don't even attempt to make things better except for them and their class. Of course New Labour was better than that. I thought they were better, they were - because anything would be.

You might not be attempting to change the world, but the Tories are and every time they get in they push it further and further. All you're doing is fighting a doomed rearguard action, always on the defensive.

That's the point mate. You have no idea what difference he made because it didn't affect you. How would you know?

I went through the shite that was Thatcher and as a kid was at the bottom. I can replay the same story again and again, but for you it means nothing.

We have choices - either were too young in which case you don't know. You weren't in a position to benefit because you were unaffected in which case you don't know. Or you do know and lived through it and idealogy defeated anything good that improved life for the worst off.

[TerenceTrentDerby]

Three found guilty were.  Two were from the left.

Sorry, who are the two from the left who threatened death to Luciana?

[reddebs]

No I mean the electorate will look for solutions, to a system that's fucked and failing them.

Let's get them in first before deciding 5yrs early that they've failed us.

[Father Ted]

Well, I am cynical.

Maybe a giant flag and a growth target will help, who knows. I don't mean to argue or make out like a c*nt. I accept New Labour were better than the Tories (again, I'd say what isn't?) and admit I was too young to even vote for the party back then.

My experience was that it was a disappointment, but whatever.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Let's get them in first before deciding 5yrs early that they've failed us.

Well, I am cynical.

Maybe a giant flag and a growth target will help, who knows. I don't mean to argue or make out like a c*nt. I accept New Labour were better than the Tories (again, I'd say what isn't?) and admit I was too young to even vote for the party back then.

My experience was that it was a disappointment, but whatever.

Well I and people liived through it mate and Thatchers Britain was fucking grim

Beyond belief and horrific

[TepidT2O]

Sorry, who are the two from the left who threatened death to Luciana?

read the thread back.

[Father Ted]

So's now though, and Labour decided five years of petty in-fighting was the desired course of action.

[reddebs]

Well, I am cynical.

Maybe a giant flag and a growth target will help, who knows. I don't mean to argue or make out like a c*nt. I accept New Labour were better than the Tories (again, I'd say what isn't?) and admit I was too young to even vote for the party back then.

My experience was that it was a disappointment, but whatever.

I think like Andy says, it depends how low the starting point is whether you're disappointed.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So's now though, and Labour decided five years of petty in-fighting was the desired course of action.

Agree there. The Right might be c*nts but they are united and work together well.o

It's easy when you want to fuck everyone but yourself

[TepidT2O]

I think like Andy says, it depends how low the starting point is whether you're disappointed.

The 70s.  Terrible
The 80s. Terrible
The 90s mostly terrible
The naughties. Great.
The 10s. Terrible
The 20s terrible.


If only there were some link.

[Yorkykopite]

Three found guilty were.  Two were from the left.

The poster was right Tepid. Far Left, Far Right.....there's no difference. Mindless conspiratorial, anti-semitic, authoritarian bollocks on both sides.

[classycarra]

Amazing what the mere mention of Luciana Berger has done to exercise some people. Even inspired more passion than our team has for TTD, and compelled them to make their first posts about her.

Sorry, who are the two from the left who threatened death to Luciana?

One of them is probably Philip Hayes. The other doesn't appear to have been named.

Either way, weird first couple of posts pal - you in Wavertree by any chance?

[TerenceTrentDerby]

read the thread back.

No thanks! 😁

[reddebs]

So's now though, and Labour decided five years of petty in-fighting was the desired course of action.

Was precisely my point earlier.  It's like a primary school playground with how petty and childish the bickering is.

You've got the Tory's still blaming labour for everything that's wrong today and you've got labour still blaming labour for the mess the next labour government won't ever be able to sort out.

We could learn something from those Tory's but the left won't let us 🤷

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Was precisely my point earlier.  It's like a primary school playground with how petty and childish the bickering is.

You've got the Tory's still blaming labour for everything that's wrong today and you've got labour still blaming labour for the mess the next labour government won't ever be able to sort out.

We could learn something from those Tory's but the left won't let us 🤷

You will notice that many don't do that. Only certain people. Corbyn really did fuck us and the Right are laughing their heads off for fucks sake

When he was saying Ukraine should do the decent thing the other day. What a c*nt.

[TerenceTrentDerby]

The poster was right Tepid. Far Left, Far Right.....there's no difference. Mindless conspiratorial, anti-semitic, authoritarian bollocks on both sides.

Amazing what the mere mention of Luciana Berger has done to exercise some people. Even inspired more passion than our team has for TTD, and compelled them to make their first posts about her.One of them is probably Philip Hayes. The other doesn't appear to have been named.

Either way, weird first couple of posts pal - you in Wavertree by any chance?

Wasnt Phil Hayes convicted in 2012? Sorry how do we know the political persuasion if the other isnt identified?
 

[Red-Soldier]

Change to the system like what mate?  Are the left campaigning on different policies to the party? 

That last paragraph doesn't make sense either.  Do you mean the far left will become racist fascists to somehow get their own way 🤷

It's fairly common political thinking that if people feel left behind/ignored, they start drifting to the far right.  You must remember, many far right economic 'policy' (be that bullshit or real) can often be more left wing than centrist stuff.

People are also more suceptible to populist policies, when they feel disenfranchised.

It's been written that Blair and Brown started to lose the Red Wall on their watch.  What we did have under them was a well-functioning benefits system though.  This was a main reason why people weren't dying and destitute.  I needed it back then and was very grateful.

We don't have that anymore, under the Tories.

Also, the system is designed to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.  After every single economic shock, such as Covid, CoL crisis, or the GFC in 2008, inequality has seen a massive spike.

Saying all this, the facts are that the country cannopt afford another Tory government and the thought is so despressing for me, I haven't even entertained the idea.

I don't care if I don't agree with everything they currently say.  The country is currently on it's fucking knees!!

[reddebs]

You will notice that many don't do that. Only certain people. Corbyn really did fuck us and the Right are laughing their heads off for fucks sake

When he was saying Ukraine should do the decent thing the other day. What a c*nt.

I know mate but I don't hold out much hope of them uniting once the chance arises to make a difference.  They'll still be bickering about something they don't like or agree with.

[Jiminy Cricket]

We all remember the day we woke up, signed up for a football forum and had to make the decision of whether to mark our first post talking about the relative merits of Gerrard, Souness and Biscan or instead joining an old cyclical argument in the forums sub-forum Labour thread.

But to be fair:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=327632.msg14759799#msg14759799

 

[classycarra]

Wasnt Phil Hayes convicted in 2012? Sorry how do we know the political persuasion if the other isnt identified?

It was identified from their twitter profile.

I'm happy to take Berger at her word anyway. Certainly more inclined to trust her word over some online conspiracists in 2018 (or 2023) acting like it's made up anyway. Good news though, the EHRC who investigated this have now concluded that Labour can be taken out of special measures, so there's a lot of progress in the right direction).

Sadly over the years I've witnessed antisemitism online from Labour supporters. Before then also almost got battered by one of our fans and his mate for having a go at the antisemitic c*nt at Madrid away (Benayoun later scored, and they celebrated).

[reddebs]

It's fairly common political thinking that if people feel left behind/ignored, they start drifting to the far right.  You must remember, many far right economic 'policy' (be that bullshit or real) can often be more left wing than centrist stuff.

People are also more suceptible to populist policies, when they feel disenfranchised.

It's been written that Blair and Brown started to lose the Red Wall on their watch.  What we did have under them was a well-functioning benefits system though.  This was a main reason why people weren't dying and destitute.  I needed it back then and was very grateful.

We don't have that anymore, under the Tories.

Also, the system is designed to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.  After every single economic shock, such as Covid, CoL crisis, or the GFC in 2008, inequality has seen a massive spike.

Saying all this, the facts are that the country cannopt afford another Tory government and the thought is so despressing for me, I haven't even entertained the idea.

I don't care if I don't agree with everything they currently say.  The country is currently on it's fucking knees!!

Yeah I guess that makes sense mate and I agree with you too, let's get those fuckers out and start to get back on track. 

Hopefully everyone that's fucked off also gets behind whatever they try to do.

[TerenceTrentDerby]

We all remember the day we woke up, signed up for a football forum and had to make the decision of whether to mark our first post talking about the relative merits of Gerrard, Souness and Biscan or instead joining an old cyclical argument in the forums sub-forum Labour thread.

Im not arguing with anyone. Im just trying to find out who the left wing anti semitic scum who threatened Luciana are!
I'll bow out of thread if its causing concern. 👍

[Jiminy Cricket]

Well I and people liived through it mate and Thatchers Britain was fucking grim

Beyond belief and horrific

Yep. I never liked Blair on a personal level, but his Government was an massive night and day change and improvement over the Tory years. I'd only add that I think that the past 12 years have been even worse than the Thatcher years. And I lived through that utter shite of no jobs and no hope.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Yep. I never liked Blair on a personal level, but his Government was an massive night and day change and improvement over the Tory years. I'd only add that I think that the past 12 years have been even worse than the Thatcher years. And I lived through that utter shite of no jobs and no hope.

Totally agree, this lot make Thatcher seem moderate.

And I also lived through the Thatcher years.

[classycarra]

Im not arguing with anyone. Im just trying to find out who the left wing anti semitic scum who threatened Luciana are!
I'll bow out of thread if its causing concern.

So sincere!

Another of the scumbags on the left is named Nick Nelson by the way. Got a suspended sentence.

Curious though, was it the suspensions of Nina Houghton (supportive pal of filthy scumbag Chris Williamson) and Hazuan Hashim over their response to Luciana Berger's abuse that got you worked up to post? Or the expulsions of Kevin Bean and Helen Dickson (these four were members of the Wavertree Constituency Labour Party before you ask their political persuasion!)

Another one associated with Wavertree CLP was former chair Alex Scott-Samuel who appeared on David Icke's conspiracy theory show and spouted off about the Rothschild trope

If you're still dubious about people on the left being just a little bit unsavoury, give this a read. That CLP in particular seems to have been a bit of a cesspool

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/23/liverpool-wavertree-labour-constituency-antisemitism-luciana-berger-derek-hatton

[Elmo!]

Fuck me, the SNP will be glad Labour are still having this infighting to take away the spotlight from their shitshow. 

[reddebs]

Yep. I never liked Blair on a personal level, but his Government was an massive night and day change and improvement over the Tory years. I'd only add that I think that the past 12 years have been even worse than the Thatcher years. And I lived through that utter shite of no jobs and no hope.

Same here re Thatcher.  I was 19 with the world at my feet and instead had 20yrs of shite.  Redundancy, house repossessed, domestic violence, divorce.

[TerenceTrentDerby]

I'm not worked up mate. I happened upon the thread and just wanted to know who the left wing anti semitic thugs mentioned are. Ive been told the names now (although the piss head Phil Hayes was in 2012 and was he ever a member if the Labour Party?) Thanks for the info. 👍

[Father Ted]

Labour aren't infighting though. Labour voters are. It's completely irrelevant to anyone outside of those bubbles, and the media have moved on from reporting on every raised voice in any CLP anywhere in the land.

Labour MP's united behind Starmer, because that was mostly what they wanted from 2010 onwards - only those pesky irritating members ruined it by continually voting against their preferred Labour right candidates.

[Sangria]

In what way were constant leadership challenges

I remember Corbyn facing 1 leadership challenge during his 5 years as leader. Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott used to rotate leadership challenges against whoever was Labour leader. I saw a quote in the FT from Corbyn regarding a leadership challenge against Blair not 12 months after the latter had won a general election with a landslide.

[classycarra]

I'm not worked up mate. I happened upon the thread and just wanted to know who the left wing anti semitic thugs mentioned are. Ive been told the names now (although the piss head Phil Hayes was in 2012 and was he ever a member if the Labour Party?) Thanks for the info. 👍

Very welcome!

You seem to know Phil Hayes, guess you could ask him his politics?

Can't say I understand your repeated 2012 point? You seemed to take issue with the claim people on the left having received convictions for these crimes, didn't realise you were only interested in certain years.

[oldfordie]

Well, I am cynical.

Maybe a giant flag and a growth target will help, who knows. I don't mean to argue or make out like a c*nt. I accept New Labour were better than the Tories (again, I'd say what isn't?) and admit I was too young to even vote for the party back then.

My experience was that it was a disappointment, but whatever.

I can see why some people were disappointed over Labour not rescinding trade union laws, upping min wage etc, problem is they judge these things in isolation, no understanding on the main political issues at the time, the consequences on unemployment etc.
It's all ancient history now but people defended the indefensible. I had no problem with unemployed people doing a bit of work on the side for a few bob but  I would never deny people chose a life on the dole, many did, arguing it was all rubbish made up by the Torys to attack the working class, it was infuriating to hear as everyone saw it happening around them daily, it gave the Torys all the ammo they needed to hammer the genuine people down on their luck. that's what really sickens me about Thatchers Torys, they went after the easy touches under the pretence of going after the abusers, the genuine people who didn't know how to fight back.

[west_london_red]

It's fairly common political thinking that if people feel left behind/ignored, they start drifting to the far right.  You must remember, many far right economic 'policy' (be that bullshit or real) can often be more left wing than centrist stuff.

People are also more suceptible to populist policies, when they feel disenfranchised.

It's been written that Blair and Brown started to lose the Red Wall on their watch.  What we did have under them was a well-functioning benefits system though.  This was a main reason why people weren't dying and destitute.  I needed it back then and was very grateful.

We don't have that anymore, under the Tories.

Also, the system is designed to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer.  After every single economic shock, such as Covid, CoL crisis, or the GFC in 2008, inequality has seen a massive spike.

Saying all this, the facts are that the country cannopt afford another Tory government and the thought is so despressing for me, I haven't even entertained the idea.

I don't care if I don't agree with everything they currently say.  The country is currently on it's fucking knees!!

There’s a lot of data to suggest wealth inequality actually got worse under the last Labour government, everyone may have been better off, but the share between the top and bottom moved in the favour of the top although whether that’s a good thing or bad thing can be argued as everyone was generally better off. And they absolutely fucked up the housing market, house prices went from 4 times the average salary to 8 by 2007, even after the crash they were still over 7. Hopefully that lesson has been learned.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Labour aren't infighting though. Labour voters are. It's completely irrelevant to anyone outside of those bubbles, and the media have moved on from reporting on every raised voice in any CLP anywhere in the land.

Labour MP's united behind Starmer, because that was mostly what they wanted from 2010 onwards - only those pesky irritating members ruined it by continually voting against their preferred Labour right candidates.

Can you explain that please - what are you implying here?

I must admit that if someone called me a Tory thesedays in a pub I'd spark the c*nt.

[Father Ted]

That the PLP is to the right of the membership?

[Sangria]

Conjecture from an unreliable witness. You'd be a fella saying Blair made no difference. For those living in poverty and those working in public services, health care and a load of other places and those that at the bottom, Labour made a massive difference.

I've had this discussion with some of my Left mates that were affluent, came from rich/middle class neighbourhoods and thought no difference was made. I lived at the bottom in some shitholes with stuff you wouldn't even believe today. I don't want Labour to change the world. The vision means nothing if you're not in a position to change anything.

But you won't give Labour a chance. Is it all or nothing for you? Labour reversing the damage is the best we can hope for. Could Corbyn have made things better in some ways? Yeah I  think so, but after allowing Ukraine to be defeated, NATO would have stepped up and escalations and an arms race would have been a likely outcome.

Appeasers don't end wars. They guarantee them.

It really annoys me whenever people say that Blair's government made no real difference, only changed things a little when radical change was needed, etc. Revolutionary change doesn't win elections, but said "little change" was felt most by those who were most vulnerable. It's the difference between those who want practical change and who are willing to tolerate much compromise in order to get that, and those who are only happy with their theories enacted.

[Robinred]

Fuck me, the SNP will be glad Labour are still having this infighting to take away the spotlight from their shitshow. 

Except it’s not Labour Party infighting - the far left and Momentum have been largely marginalised. It’s this-particular-thread-on-a football-forum nonsense, where the usual suspects occasionally saunter in, throw a little grenade, and saunter out again. And even though the odd one grudgingly concedes that anything is better than the Tories - most particularly the current appalling manifestation - the palpable disdain for the centre left is as predictable as it’s scathing dismissiveness of Starmer, and his being an ‘heir’ to Blair (not that “centre left” ever appears in the vocabulary).