Author Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.  (Read 257999 times)

Offline aw1991

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,104
  • Love Firmino, hate bastards
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #280 on: June 1, 2020, 03:56:15 pm »
I'm not sure America need a civil war or a revolution. They just need better leadership.

Offline Welshred

  • CBE. To be fair to him, he is a massive twat. Professional Ladies' Arse Fondler. Possibly......we're not sure any more......
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,608
  • JFT96
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #281 on: June 1, 2020, 03:56:16 pm »
A revolution to effect change in America would require the overthrowing of a government. For revolution not to imply civil war you'll need to list the number of times a government has been overthrown peacefully. Oh and to back it up when faced with civil war comments from others Cpt_Reina has just doubled down on it being needed so he clearly means civil war.

Online Gerry Attrick

  • Sancho's dad. Tight-arse, non-jackpot-sharing get :)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 49,654
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #282 on: June 1, 2020, 03:57:52 pm »
the US political system has major flaws, particularly as it's only a two party system. there's also the issue of gerrymandering [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering] just a reference for those who aren't aware of it.

What did I do?

Offline Lone Star Red

  • Tex
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,363
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #283 on: June 1, 2020, 03:58:22 pm »
A revolution is not a civil war.

Right. The vast majority of people in this forum have made it quite clear how they feel about guns and gun rights and how this country is just FILLED (FILLED!) with a bunch of angry, racist, white armed-to-the teeth rednecks...I guess who will go peacefully into the night?
You cannot call overseas Liverpool supporters glory hunters. We’ve won one trophy this decade. If they’re glory hunters, they’re really bad ones. They’re actually journey hunters. It’s the journey and the story. Something about Liverpool has grabbed them." - Neil Atkinson (May, 2019)

"So don’t think about it – just play football.” - Jurgen Klopp

Online Peabee

  • SKPB! Is goin' down der Asd.....der Waitrose.....anyone wannany hummus?
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,298
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #284 on: June 1, 2020, 03:58:52 pm »
A revolution to effect change in America would require the overthrowing of a government. For revolution not to imply civil war you'll need to list the number of times a government has been overthrown peacefully. Oh and to back it up when faced with civil war comments from others Cpt_Reina has just doubled down on it being needed so he clearly means civil war.

I’ve updated my post. A revolution and civil war are two different things. A revolution doesn’t have to involve armed battles.
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Offline ljycb

  • RAWK's Bullen Oracle of Wisdom & Knowledge, the Collective Voice of our Moral Conscience
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,704
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #285 on: June 1, 2020, 03:59:20 pm »
Totally agree with the previous post though. We’re letting personal issues with one another get in the way of having a constructive discussion about something that is very important. I imagine we all agree that this is a deplorable situation and something needs to be done about it, so let’s keep referring back to that no matter what other differences we have.

Online Peabee

  • SKPB! Is goin' down der Asd.....der Waitrose.....anyone wannany hummus?
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,298
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #286 on: June 1, 2020, 03:59:56 pm »
Right. The vast majority of people in this forum have made it quite clear how they feel about guns and gun rights and how this country is just FILLED (FILLED!) with a bunch of angry, racist, white armed-to-the teeth rednecks...I guess who will go peacefully into the night?

I’m not arguing for a revolution or civil war. I’m just being pedantic about the definitions for both and the differences.
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,996
  • ....mmm
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #287 on: June 1, 2020, 04:00:52 pm »
Why does America need a revolution?

If you go back to the Second World War and move forward one decade at a time doesn't the social and political landscape change dramatically and for the better each time? By the time we get to 2010 we have a Black President. Or have I missed something.

The revolution has been happening for the best part of 70 years, and unfortunately when things are incredibly systemic they take generations to change.
:D

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,703
  • YNWA
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #288 on: June 1, 2020, 04:01:43 pm »
It doesn't need to be a full blown civil war.

The people could break the wheel and bring upon a revolution... by organising a national strike, rioting, protesting, hacking, boycotting, occupying.

There are any number of ways it could be enacted before it becomes a full blown civil war.

Can see given the history of America and their last civil war essentially giving birth to the nation how that would be the first assumption however.

Offline Caligula?

  • Most Negative poster on site, Moan, Moan, Moan, Liverpool are shite... Does he ever stop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,710
  • SPQR
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #289 on: June 1, 2020, 04:01:54 pm »
Who advocated for civil war? Genuine question because I haven’t seen that on here.

I hope they burn the country down to the ground.
This.
Well, yes, that would have to happen first and many (more) lives would be lost so I'm not going to sit on my arse here in Liverpool and say what Americans should or shouldn't do.
Doubt it goes as far as a full blown revolution because those who should all be getting involved are too fragmented but...fingers crossed.

Offline jillcwhomever

  • Finding Brian hard to swallow. Definitely not Paula Nancy MIllstone Jennings of 37 Wasp Villas, Greenbridge, Essex, GB10 1LL. Or maybe. Who knows.....Finds it hard to choose between Jürgen's wurst and Fat Sam's sausage.
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 78,510
  • "I'm surprised they didn't charge me rent"
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #290 on: June 1, 2020, 04:03:07 pm »
Totally agree with the previous post though. We’re letting personal issues with one another get in the way of having a constructive discussion about something that is very important. I imagine we all agree that this is a deplorable situation and something needs to be done about it, so let’s keep referring back to that no matter what other differences we have.

To do that, people need to be grown up and stop using phrases such as hoping a country burns to the ground. That is neither constructive or encourages sensible debate on serious subjects such as these.

"He's trying to get right away from football. I believe he went to Everton"

Offline Hendollama

  • Baldanovski stan. Injustice can be committed only by persons who cannot be touched, only by persons who have power and authority.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,098
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #291 on: June 1, 2020, 04:04:18 pm »
Totally agree with the previous post though. We’re letting personal issues with one another get in the way of having a constructive discussion about something that is very important. I imagine we all agree that this is a deplorable situation and something needs to be done about it, so let’s keep referring back to that no matter what other differences we have.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to ask. I am pretty sure all want the same end result.
Happy is the man who avoids hardship, but how fine is the man who is afflicted and shows endurance.

Offline Welshred

  • CBE. To be fair to him, he is a massive twat. Professional Ladies' Arse Fondler. Possibly......we're not sure any more......
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,608
  • JFT96
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #292 on: June 1, 2020, 04:04:29 pm »
I’m not arguing for a revolution or civil war. I’m just being pedantic about the definitions for both and the differences.

In this case though the two are intrinsically linked. As Lone Star Red has said there are too many people in America who see themselves as their local militia that they wouldn't stand for any peaceful revolution.

Offline Caligula?

  • Most Negative poster on site, Moan, Moan, Moan, Liverpool are shite... Does he ever stop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,710
  • SPQR
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #293 on: June 1, 2020, 04:04:44 pm »
It doesn't need to be a full blown civil war.

The people could break the wheel and bring upon a revolution... by organising a national strike, rioting, protesting, hacking, boycotting, occupying.

There are any number of ways it could be enacted before it becomes a full blown civil war.

Can see given the history of America and their last civil war essentially giving birth to the nation how that would be the first assumption however.

And that's exactly what's happening now, and what should continue to happen. If that's the revolution you mean, then fair enough. It's the type of change I've obviously been in agreement to as well.

Offline Snail

  • Disgusted by you. Snail murdering S h e e p. Ms Soppy Twat Potty Mouth. The Annabel Chong of RAWK's X-Factor. Likes giving Sir Cliff of Richard one.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,983
  • How are we
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #294 on: June 1, 2020, 04:05:54 pm »


I apologise for my post from yesterday as that was insensitive and I fully understand why that’s upset people, it was a twattish thing for me to say. So to you, soxfan and anyone else I pissed off, I’m sorry.

My post from today in full:

Well, yes, that would have to happen first and many (more) lives would be lost so I'm not going to sit on my arse here in Liverpool and say what Americans should or shouldn't do. But he's not the only problem here. If Biden wins in November (I don't personally think he will, I also think there'll be foul play from the Republicans and things could turn very ugly again very fast, assuming things have calmed down at all by then) it's not going to magically make everything better. What we're seeing in the US right now is the cumulative effect of centuries and it all needs tearing up and starting again.

Failing that, a root and branch clear out of police departments across the country - from the top brass down to the newest recruits, a complete overhaul of the recruitment process, and introducing actual real accountability and consequences for pieces of shit like Chauvin and the countless other murderers with their ranks who are currently enjoying full pensions. But I fear we'd only see the same thing happen again down the line, and it wouldn't solve everything - far from it.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 04:07:31 pm by Snail »

Offline jillcwhomever

  • Finding Brian hard to swallow. Definitely not Paula Nancy MIllstone Jennings of 37 Wasp Villas, Greenbridge, Essex, GB10 1LL. Or maybe. Who knows.....Finds it hard to choose between Jürgen's wurst and Fat Sam's sausage.
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 78,510
  • "I'm surprised they didn't charge me rent"
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #295 on: June 1, 2020, 04:10:26 pm »
I apologise for my post from yesterday as that was insensitive and I fully understand why that’s upset people, it was a twattish thing for me to say. So to you, soxfan and anyone else I pissed off, I’m sorry.

My post from today in full:

Fair play for that post, and I agree with an awful lot of your revised post.
"He's trying to get right away from football. I believe he went to Everton"

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,703
  • YNWA
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #296 on: June 1, 2020, 04:15:18 pm »
And that's exactly what's happening now, and what should continue to happen. If that's the revolution you mean, then fair enough. It's the type of change I've obviously been in agreement to as well.

Indeed. But civil disobedience and destruction of property/violence against oppression is just as much a valid avenue as any others when they've ceased to even be heard never mind work.

Occupy Wall St yielded no tangible results, peaceful protest (Colin Kaepernick) yielded no tangible results, attempting to put in place an actual progressive democratic candidate yielded no results.

The situation as it is now, having escalated as it has done, has not been the first port of call for anyone participating in it. It's a result of the non violent methods failing.

And so where else is there to turn? You go back to step no1 and start the cycle over again? Or do you try something more radical, more dangerous and admittedly more worrying?

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,902
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #297 on: June 1, 2020, 04:18:17 pm »
Why does America need a revolution?

If you go back to the Second World War and move forward one decade at a time doesn't the social and political landscape change dramatically and for the better each time? By the time we get to 2010 we have a Black President. Or have I missed something.

The revolution has been happening for the best part of 70 years, and unfortunately when things are incredibly systemic they take generations to change.

Is a very good point. It's easy to miss changes happening in front of you when they move so slowly.

Compared to the 1930s and then the 1950s and 60s and 70s - and going forward, you can point to many things where things are better in the US.

Cracking post.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,226
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #298 on: June 1, 2020, 04:18:45 pm »
Right. The vast majority of people in this forum have made it quite clear how they feel about guns and gun rights and how this country is just FILLED (FILLED!) with a bunch of angry, racist, white armed-to-the teeth rednecks...I guess who will go peacefully into the night?

Depends how law enforcement is deployed.   Right now,  under Trump,  it works a certain way.  The base elements in the populace are emboldened.

Say a top class leader is president,  law enforcement works closer to how it should. Do you see these militias facing the fire? Put it this way,  when was the last time a local militia stood against the odds,  faced death,  displayed valour?  A couple of hundred years ago? 

In life,  in terms of probability,  if you have to shout to the world you are strong,  brave and lethal,  chances are,  you are none of those things.  The resistance of your militias against greater odds (proper law enforcement)  is a myth that hopefully gets tested sooner rather than later in the abolishment of gun ownership.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2020, 04:20:27 pm by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #299 on: June 1, 2020, 04:26:03 pm »
Is a very good point. It's easy to miss changes happening in front of you when they move so slowly.

Compared to the 1930s and then the 1950s and 60s and 70s - and going forward, you can point to many things where things are better in the US.

Cracking post.

Sure there's progress, but that progress isn't enough. In this instance, changing the police departments, is not something that should take another 70 years. Start using laws that you use for everyone else, and stop protecting and hiding criminals who happen to be police officers.

Offline Lone Star Red

  • Tex
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,363
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #300 on: June 1, 2020, 04:29:11 pm »
Why does America need a revolution?

If you go back to the Second World War and move forward one decade at a time doesn't the social and political landscape change dramatically and for the better each time? By the time we get to 2010 we have a Black President. Or have I missed something.

The revolution has been happening for the best part of 70 years, and unfortunately when things are incredibly systemic they take generations to change.

This is a good post.

I guess for me though, that's more of evolution than revolution, since it's positive change over a time span of decades.

When one wants revolution, it's a much more abrupt and quicker change. At least that's how I interpret the internet rallying cries.
You cannot call overseas Liverpool supporters glory hunters. We’ve won one trophy this decade. If they’re glory hunters, they’re really bad ones. They’re actually journey hunters. It’s the journey and the story. Something about Liverpool has grabbed them." - Neil Atkinson (May, 2019)

"So don’t think about it – just play football.” - Jurgen Klopp

Online Andy82lfc

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,657
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #301 on: June 1, 2020, 04:30:08 pm »
For anyone who didn't see:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/52875059

Offline Lone Star Red

  • Tex
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,363
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #302 on: June 1, 2020, 04:31:06 pm »
Sure there's progress, but that progress isn't enough. In this instance, changing the police departments, is not something that should take another 70 years. Start using laws that you use for everyone else, and stop protecting and hiding criminals who happen to be police officers.

I think you're missing the point. He's not saying all the good things that have happened and changed in this country over the last 70 years TOOK 70 years to implement.

He was just pointing out that over that time period, so many advances forward have occurred, many (most?) of them not taking 70 years.

Could be wrong though.
You cannot call overseas Liverpool supporters glory hunters. We’ve won one trophy this decade. If they’re glory hunters, they’re really bad ones. They’re actually journey hunters. It’s the journey and the story. Something about Liverpool has grabbed them." - Neil Atkinson (May, 2019)

"So don’t think about it – just play football.” - Jurgen Klopp

Offline rafathegaffa83

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,456
  • Dutch Class
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #303 on: June 1, 2020, 04:31:48 pm »
Why does America need a revolution?

If you go back to the Second World War and move forward one decade at a time doesn't the social and political landscape change dramatically and for the better each time? By the time we get to 2010 we have a Black President. Or have I missed something.

The revolution has been happening for the best part of 70 years, and unfortunately when things are incredibly systemic they take generations to change.

I think what can't be forgotten here is that in the 1960s Lyndon Johnson had pushed to develop The Great Society: a set of domestic programs designed to eradicate poverty and racial injustices through extensive public investments in healthcare, education and welfare, as well as legislation designed to protect the environment and restrict discrimination in areas such as housing and voting.

It would be interesting to see where the United States would be now had its involvement in Vietnam War and the subsequent protests, not derailed that. Various Presidents beginning with the Nixon Administration have cut back on many of those programs and the weakened effectiveness of those programs has been used as a conservative rallying cry that government shouldn't get involved in socio-economic problems ever since.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,195
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #304 on: June 1, 2020, 04:34:24 pm »
Indeed. But civil disobedience and destruction of property/violence against oppression is just as much a valid avenue as any others when they've ceased to even be heard never mind work.

Occupy Wall St yielded no tangible results, peaceful protest (Colin Kaepernick) yielded no tangible results, attempting to put in place an actual progressive democratic candidate yielded no results.

The situation as it is now, having escalated as it has done, has not been the first port of call for anyone participating in it. It's a result of the non violent methods failing.

And so where else is there to turn? You go back to step no1 and start the cycle over again? Or do you try something more radical, more dangerous and admittedly more worrying?
But we already know rioting doesn't work. Did the LA riots make anything better for black Americans in Los Angeles? Not from where I'm standing. If anything, they exacerbated the problems by destroying the local economies of the deprived neighbourhoods that were burnt down. Same as the Watts riots in the 60's. All it does is breed more violence and gives the authorities an excuse to be more heavy handed.

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #305 on: June 1, 2020, 04:35:37 pm »
I think you're missing the point. He's not saying all the good things that have happened and changed in this country over the last 70 years TOOK 70 years to implement.

He was just pointing out that over that time period, so many advances forward have occurred, many (most?) of them not taking 70 years.

Could be wrong though.

I am aware of what he is saying. When you pride yourself as being the country of the Land of the Free, and all men are created equal, and you have massive massive inconsistencies and discrepancies within punishment for cops who murder innocent people, all said progress is not good enough regardless of any advances that have taken, whether it be 10,15,5 years, 2 years, 1 year, etc..

Two police officers were fired in Atlanta last night for using a taser on an unarmed young women.


Online skipper757

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,154
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #306 on: June 1, 2020, 04:35:41 pm »
I think the concern with the progress is that the country is really divided, and everything is politicized to the extreme (see:  COVID).  The country should be coming together for solutions, but when you politicize everything, it becomes a matter of keeping power.  It becomes really difficult to have a good bi-partisan plan to continue to address systemic issues.  And you need that support.

Looking at the GOP, you see a big problem on how they're addressing things.  When Barack Obama was elected in 2008, the GOP was in a lot trouble at the federal level as well as the state level.  Their (combined with news/radio) relentless criticism of Obama and the push for the Tea Party from some of the donors helped turn things around, taking control of the House, more state governorships, and more state legislatures.  But a 2012 presidential defeat and a failure to regain the Senate led to an introspection.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/rnc-completes-autopsy-2012-loss-calls-inclusion-policy/story?id=18755809

Some snippets:
"We need to campaign among Hispanic, black, Asian, and gay Americans and demonstrate we care about them, too. We must recruit more candidates who come from minority communities. But it is not just tone that counts. Policy always matters."

"Public perception of our party is at record lows," Bradshaw said. "Young voters are increasingly rolling their eyes at what the party represents and many minorities think Republicans don't like them or don't want them in our country. When someone rolls their eyes at us they aren't likely to open their ears to us."

Bradshaw added that the GOP "needs to stop talking to itself" and needs to open the tent in order to win presidential elections in the future.

"We have become expert at how to provide ideological information to like-minded people but ,devastatingly, we have lost the ability to be persuasive with or welcoming to those who don't agree with us on every issue," Bradshaw said, noting they need to be "inviting and inspiring."

"Our standard should not be universal purity, it should be a more welcoming form of conservatism," Bradshaw said, bluntly adding that the party "needs to do better with women" and it needs to address the "unique concerns" women voters have.

The theme of inclusion continued with Glenn McColl, a national committeeman from South Carolina who insisted the party seems to some as "intolerant and unaccepting of differing points of view."

"If our party isn't welcoming and inclusive young people and increasingly other voters will continue to tune us out," McColl said. "The party should be proud of its conservative principles but just because someone disagrees with us on 20 percent of the issues does not mean we can't come together on the rest of the issues we do agree on."

Before Priebus unveiled the report, the group, including the committeewoman from Puerto Rico, Zoraida Fonalledas, addressed the crowd of reporters in Spanish and she too stressed the need for a change in tone and for candidates to be compassionate and inclusive.

"If Hispanic Americans hear the GOP doesn't want them in the U.S.A.," Fonelledas said, "they won't pay attention to our next sentence. It doesn't matter what we say about education, jobs or the economy. If Hispanics think we don't want them here, they will close their ears to our policies."


So what did the GOP do?  The 2014 elections that gave the GOP the Senate led to the stonewalling of Obama's Senate candidate.  Major legislation pieces, including items such as immigration and education (items that Boehner wanted to work on with Obama) were shelved.  And the kicker:  in the 2016, it put forth a candidate that was literally the antithesis of everything that needed to happen above.  Much about the outreach to minorities, women, and young voters was kicked to the curb.

And it worked.  The GOP not only won the Presidency but also retained the House and Senate.  It also kept its gains at the state level.  In 2016, over 60% of states had GOP governors (the numbers have come down to almost 50-50 since) and the GOP had significantly more states where it controlled both the state House and state Senate.  It also was able to replace a conservative SC justice and a swing vote SC justice with two more conservative justices.

The GOP pushing a hard, divisive agenda won them basically everything.  The negative consequences are starting to roll in in terms of midterm results, but the GOP (up until coronavirus anyway) was well positioned to either continue a Trump presidency in which control of the Senate could mean another justice on the court (if Breyer/Ginsberg step down; or even a replacement of Thomas with a younger conservative) or to stall a Democratic president in 2020 (if the GOP can hold the Senate) and then hope that the 2022 midterms even swing the House back.

To this point, there has not be electoral consequences for the GOP.  A landslide in 2016 combined with losses at every level would've forced that introspection to the fore.  It would've communicated that the GOP needs to take leadership on issues such as race relations, inequality, etc.  That eventually there will be discontent with the Democratic Party, and that the GOP would need to be ready to lead.  It would've had to embrace a broader coalition.

Instead, the GOP was completely rewarded even with a candidate and a party approach that went away from those 2012 lessons.  There have been very little consequence for the party.  Politicizing and pushing a divisive agenda is working.  So there's no incentive for the GOP to change their approach and take on leadership in addressing some of these difficult issues.  The thing is, no matter how much Biden/your Dem governor/your Dem Senator wants to reform, you need enough support at the appropriate level (local, state, federal, etc).  As it stands, you need the GOP to agree to these major changes.  If the GOP has been humbled enough to 1) get them to work with you on these issues or 2) be powerless to challenge your changes, then yes you can make sweeping reforms.  For example, if the GOP was clearly dominated for years, then it may have to accept that universal healthcare is the way to go (but work with the Dems to get a good vision for everyone) and that, yes, minority rights are still being trampled and must be addressed (and thus even pushing Democrats to get things done to win votes).

Until that point happens, the hardliners have won (see Trump, Donald, McConnell, Mitch, among others).  So that's your issue.  Politicizing everything is not good for the country, but it worked for the GOP.  Now the Democrats basically have to respond in kind.  And the country's more divided than ever.

Things ranging from amending the Constitution to reforming the police to implementing more safety nets in disadvantaged communities, etc are almost impossible in today's political environment.
King Kenny.

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #307 on: June 1, 2020, 04:36:53 pm »
But we already know rioting doesn't work. Did the LA riots make anything better for black Americans in Los Angeles? Not from where I'm standing. If anything, they exacerbated the problems by destroying the local economies of the deprived neighbourhoods that were burnt down. Same as the Watts riots in the 60's. All it does is breed more violence and gives the authorities an excuse to be more heavy handed.

The authorities will make an excuse regardless. There will always be an excuse, peaceful [see Collin Kapernick] or not.


Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,996
  • ....mmm
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #308 on: June 1, 2020, 04:37:21 pm »
I think what can't be forgotten here is that in the 1960s Lyndon Johnson had pushed to develop The Great Society: a set of domestic programs designed to eradicate poverty and racial injustices through extensive public investments in healthcare, education and welfare, as well as legislation designed to protect the environment and restrict discrimination in areas such as housing and voting.

It would be interesting to see where the United States would be now had its involvement in Vietnam War and the subsequent protests, not derailed that. Various Presidents beginning with the Nixon Administration have cut back on many of those programs and the weakened effectiveness of those programs has been used as a conservative rallying cry that government shouldn't get involved in socio-economic problems ever since.

And somewhat ironically Nixon's 'War on Drugs' was hugely wrapped up in socio-economic problems and the fallout can still be felt today.
:D

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,703
  • YNWA
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #309 on: June 1, 2020, 04:37:53 pm »
But we already know rioting doesn't work. Did the LA riots make anything better for black Americans in Los Angeles? Not from where I'm standing. If anything, they exacerbated the problems by destroying the local economies of the deprived neighbourhoods that were burnt down. Same as the Watts riots in the 60's. All it does is breed more violence and gives the authorities an excuse to be more heavy handed.

I'm unqualified to answer what the outcomes were at that time. In that specific city/those communities.

But I will say that the LA riots isn't comparable to even the scale of rioting and unrest that we're seeing now, never mind a sustained and lasting period of 'revolution'. I'm not sure it's an applicable comparison?

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,226
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #310 on: June 1, 2020, 04:39:32 pm »
Cheers for that skipper.

Offline Lone Star Red

  • Tex
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,363
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #311 on: June 1, 2020, 04:41:09 pm »
I am aware of what he is saying. When you pride yourself as being the country of the Land of the Free, and all men are created equal, and you have massive massive inconsistencies and discrepancies within punishment for cops who murder innocent people, all said progress is not good enough regardless of any advances that have taken, whether it be 10,15,5 years, 2 years, 1 year, etc..

Two police officers were fired in Atlanta last night for using a taser on an unarmed young women.

I think you and I are on the same side and agreeing there that needs to be continued systemic change for the vast majority of police forces within this country. At least the ones within large cities.
You cannot call overseas Liverpool supporters glory hunters. We’ve won one trophy this decade. If they’re glory hunters, they’re really bad ones. They’re actually journey hunters. It’s the journey and the story. Something about Liverpool has grabbed them." - Neil Atkinson (May, 2019)

"So don’t think about it – just play football.” - Jurgen Klopp

Offline [new username under construction]

  • Poster formerly know as shadowbane. Never lost his head whilst others panicked. Fucking kopite!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,527
  • Insert something awesome here!
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #312 on: June 1, 2020, 04:51:55 pm »

Offline RainbowFlick

  • The Test Ticket Tout. Head of the RAWK Vice Squad.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,479
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #313 on: June 1, 2020, 04:52:00 pm »
Black Lives Matter.
YNWA.

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,195
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #314 on: June 1, 2020, 05:03:32 pm »
But I will say that the LA riots isn't comparable to even the scale of rioting and unrest that we're seeing now, never mind a sustained and lasting period of 'revolution'. I'm not sure it's an applicable comparison?
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The LA riots lasted for six days and were responsible for the deaths of dozens of people in addition to entire neighbourhoods being decimated. This unrest is has been going on two days so far and the destruction level is nowhere near. If you're referring to the nationwide nature of it, a more direct comparison would be the wave of riots that took place across American cities in 1967 and '68. The ones that were followed by the election of a right-wing Republican government and a pro-segregation candidate winning five states.

I mean, no one is actually explaining how rioting is going to help the cause against police brutality. Especially since the far more likely result is what we're already seeing: the police being given more powers to quell unrest.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #315 on: June 1, 2020, 05:03:35 pm »
I'm unqualified to answer what the outcomes were at that time. In that specific city/those communities.

But I will say that the LA riots isn't comparable to even the scale of rioting and unrest that we're seeing now, never mind a sustained and lasting period of 'revolution'. I'm not sure it's an applicable comparison?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Quote
The rioting spread throughout the Los Angeles metropolitan area, as thousands of people rioted over a six-day period following the announcement of the verdict. Widespread looting, assault, arson, and murder occurred during the riots, which local police could not control due to lack of personnel and resources against the sheer number of rioters. The complete disorder in the Los Angeles area was only resolved after the California Army National Guard, the United States military, and several federal law enforcement agencies intervened.

By the time the riots ended, 63 people had been killed, 2,383 people had been injured, more than 12,000 had been arrested, and estimates of property damage were over $1 billion, much of which disproportionately affected Koreatown, Los Angeles.
pretty sure there haven’t been many, if any, deaths so far or the number of injuries, plus that was just LA not many big cities

Online Ray K

  • Loves a shiny helmet. The new IndyKalia.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,293
  • Truthiness
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #316 on: June 1, 2020, 05:09:34 pm »
@edokeefe
MORE: Trump tells governors: "You’ve got to arrest people, you have to track people, you have to put them in jail for 10 years and you’ll never see this stuff again," per audio obtained by @CBSNews

One person listening in on the call describes the president's words and tone as "unhinged."
"We have to change from doubters to believers"

Twitter: @rjkelly75

Offline Giono

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,005
  • And stop calling me Shirley
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #317 on: June 1, 2020, 05:10:22 pm »
It's almost like a shallow attempt by a corrupt leader to have anyone who protests against him being labelled as a terorrist.

Building up the rep of antifa to the level of organized white nationalists is the same as equating his supporters in Charlottesville as being good people too.
"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 95,050
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #318 on: June 1, 2020, 05:10:32 pm »
@edokeefe
MORE: Trump tells governors: "You’ve got to arrest people, you have to track people, you have to put them in jail for 10 years and you’ll never see this stuff again," per audio obtained by @CBSNews

One person listening in on the call describes the president's words and tone as "unhinged."
The National cellaring needs calming words, words to reassure people, to bring them together.

Trump? Beat more, shoot more, arrest more.....
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Civil unrest in America
« Reply #319 on: June 1, 2020, 05:14:08 pm »
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The LA riots lasted for six days and were responsible for the deaths of dozens of people in addition to entire neighbourhoods being decimated. This unrest is has been going on two days so far and the destruction level is nowhere near. If you're referring to the nationwide nature of it, a more direct comparison would be the wave of riots that took place across American cities in 1967 and '68. The ones that were followed by the election of a right-wing Republican government and a pro-segregation candidate winning five states.

I mean, no one is actually explaining how rioting is going to help the cause against police brutality. Especially since the far more likely result is what we're already seeing: the police being given more powers to quell unrest.

The rioting is not going to help, but when you are backed into a corner and you don't know what else to do, in that moment, and you are trying to get people to actually pay attention to whats going on, it's an  understandable reaction

LA riots were LA specific as well, not nation wide, not to this extent .