Topic: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)

[ljycb]

I'm not going to pretend to be the most educated person on this topic but the way Rowling talks about this issue just makes her come across as extremely small minded and bitter. There's not an ounce of humility in that blog and certainly no attempt to have a reasonable discussion about why people think she's wrong.

There's also a few points that even without fact checking I knew were complete lies.

It must be exhausting for trans people to read pieces like that. In fact, it must be exhausting for trans people to read the discourse being had (usually without them) full stop. Whether it’s Glinner or Rowling or even threads like this one, set up by a cisgender man like me!

[TepidT2O]

Long Twitter thread worth reading on Rowlings blog post. Its unbelievable how economic with the truth she has been.

(Across 2 different threads)

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1270766889325727744

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1270784861779918848

These aren’t accessible

[TepidT2O]

I'm not going to pretend to be the most educated person on this topic but the way Rowling talks about this issue just makes her come across as extremely small minded and bitter. There's not an ounce of humility in that blog and certainly no attempt to have a reasonable discussion about why people think she's wrong.

There's also a few points that even without fact checking I knew were complete lies.

Which ones?

[Elmo!]

These aren’t accessible

Looks like they have protected their account since I posted. I can't access their profile any more either.

[Red Viper]

Which ones?

Actually she just reiterates the same incorrect point a number of times

"A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this."

"I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman "

That jumped out straightaway as rubbish and a quick google confirmed it to be so.

Why does she feel the need to lie like this?

[Elmo!]

Actually she just reiterates the same incorrect point a number of times

"A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this."

That jumped out straightaway as rubbish and a quick google confirmed it to be so.

Why does she feel the need to lie like this?

One of the points that the Twitter thread I posted that is no longer accessible made. Also pointed out that the tax accountant that Rowling claimed had lost her job, was in fact on a contract and the employer chose not to renew it. She was not fired.

[TepidT2O]

Actually she just reiterates the same incorrect point a number of times

"A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this."

"I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman "

That jumped out straightaway as rubbish and a quick google confirmed it to be so.

Why does she feel the need to lie like this?

For clarity, why is it rubbish??

[Red Viper]

For clarity, why is it rubbish??

Because it's not true

[Elmo!]

For clarity, why is it rubbish??

Bathrooms are already open to any sex or gender.

[Red Viper]

This is a very informative thread that discusses Rowling's blog and points out it's many problems.

https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/1270787941275762689?s=20

[Red_Bear]

For clarity, why is it rubbish??

As others have said already, there is no law in the UK that stops anyone from using any toilets they want. That's just societal convention. There are laws, however, that govern everyone's behaviour in toilets (and everywhere else) - trans or cis, male, female or non-binary.

I feel like I'm going round in circles here, I addressed a lot of this in my post earlier in the thread. I'm aware that it's a lot to take in, especially if you're unfamiliar with the subject, so I'm not blaming anyone, but anyone who's genuinely interested might want to go and read it again (and other posts, I'm not claiming mine is the only good post!)

Secondly, currently to get a Gender Recognition Certificate you don't need to have had surgery or take hormones anyway - so that's not going to change!

JK Rowling is an intelligent woman - these things she's writing are not mistakes, she's deliberately lying. Or if she thinks she's telling the truth, maybe she should actually do some research and fact checking first, rather than just believing what others have told her.

There's a long thread here about many of the problems with JK Rowling's piece - this breaks it down very nicely: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270787941275762689.html. Unlike JK Rowling's piece, it's also backed up with plenty of statistics and other evidence.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Regardless of where you stand, not sure this was wise from whoever runs the body shop twitter account

https://twitter.com/thebodyshop/status/1270773993109434373?s=21

[Red Viper]

There's a long thread here about many of the problems with JK Rowling's piece - this breaks it down very nicely: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270787941275762689.html. Unlike JK Rowling's piece, it's also backed up with plenty of statistics and other evidence.

I clicked on that to read it and saw it's the same thread as I've just posted. Great minds and all that.

[Red_Bear]

I clicked on that to read it and saw it's the same thread as I've just posted. Great minds and all that.

Haha, sorry - I'd must've been writing it while you posted!

[Red_Bear]

It must be exhausting for trans people to read pieces like that. In fact, it must be exhausting for trans people to read the discourse being had (usually without them) full stop. Whether it’s Glinner or Rowling or even threads like this one, set up by a cisgender man like me!

As you say, most of my trans friends are totally exhausted by it. Generally, trans people just want to get on with their lives and be afforded the same human rights as everyone else. Trans people don't want to "recruit" more people, or force people to transition - trans people know better than anyone else how shitty it is to have gender dysphoria, and wouldn't want to inflict it on anyone else. What trans people DO want is to support trans youth and help alleviate the shit they're going through.

[Snail]

Rowling knocks me sick to be honest.

[TepidT2O]

Bathrooms are already open to any sex or gender.

I thought we were referring to the other paragraph..

I get it now.

[TepidT2O]

As others have said already, there is no law in the UK that stops anyone from using any toilets they want. That's just societal convention. There are laws, however, that govern everyone's behaviour in toilets (and everywhere else) - trans or cis, male, female or non-binary.

I feel like I'm going round in circles here, I addressed a lot of this in my post earlier in the thread. I'm aware that it's a lot to take in, especially if you're unfamiliar with the subject, so I'm not blaming anyone, but anyone who's genuinely interested might want to go and read it again (and other posts, I'm not claiming mine is the only good post!)

Secondly, currently to get a Gender Recognition Certificate you don't need to have had surgery or take hormones anyway - so that's not going to change!

JK Rowling is an intelligent woman - these things she's writing are not mistakes, she's deliberately lying. Or if she thinks she's telling the truth, maybe she should actually do some research and fact checking first, rather than just believing what others have told her.

There's a long thread here about many of the problems with JK Rowling's piece - this breaks it down very nicely: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270787941275762689.html. Unlike JK Rowling's piece, it's also backed up with plenty of statistics and other evidence.

Thank you..

It was a genuine question so thank you for an informative answer. I do worry that asking questions to clarify things can come across as sarky, it isn’t really meant to be.

[Iska]

Thank you..

It was a genuine question so thank you for an informative answer. I do worry that asking questions to clarify things can come across as sarky, it isn’t really meant to be.

Be very careful with that twitter thread.  I’m not going to check it all, but points 1a. and 1b. are simply wrong.

1a. says that JKR has misrepresented the claimant as the victim, but the claim is exactly about her being a victim of discrimination (para 4 of the judgment).  Whether the discrimination was a result of sacking or resulted in her not having a contract renewed is hardly the point.

1b. says that the claimant didn’t ask for a ruling on whether her belief is a protected philosophical belief.  In fact that’s exactly what she asked for (para 3 of the judgment).

See for yourself: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e15e7f8e5274a06b555b8b0/Maya_Forstater__vs_CGD_Europe__Centre_for_Global_Development_and_Masood_Ahmed_-_Judgment.pdf  If that’s how the thread starts, you can probably safely form a view on the rest.

[TepidT2O]

Be very careful with that twitter thread.  I’m not going to check it all, but points 1a. and 1b. are simply wrong.

1a. says that JKR has misrepresented the claimant as the victim, but the claim is exactly about her being a victim of discrimination (para 4 of the judgment).  Whether the discrimination was a result of sacking or resulted in her not having a contract renewed is hardly the point.

1b. says that the claimant didn’t ask for a ruling on whether her belief is a protected philosophical belief.  In fact that’s exactly what she asked for (para 3 of the judgment).

See for yourself: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e15e7f8e5274a06b555b8b0/Maya_Forstater__vs_CGD_Europe__Centre_for_Global_Development_and_Masood_Ahmed_-_Judgment.pdf  If that’s how the thread starts, you can probably safely form a view on the rest.

Yes, some bits stood out to me as being quite wrong, but I thought others were valid criticism.

The trouble I’m finding is that I seem to agree with conflicting arguments from both sides of the fence...

[Sheer Magnetism]

Almost half (48 per cent) of trans people in Britain have attempted suicide at
least once; 84 per cent have thought about it. More than half (55 per cent)
have been diagnosed with depression at some point.
(Trans Mental Health Survey 2012, sample size = 889)

I would be fascinated to know what proportion of those took place a) before the person regarded themselves as trans, b) after they identified as trans but before hormones/surgery, c) post-hormones and d) post-surgery.

[killer-heels]

Not sure why she felt she needed to say anything.

[Elmo!]

As you say, most of my trans friends are totally exhausted by it. Generally, trans people just want to get on with their lives and be afforded the same human rights as everyone else. Trans people don't want to "recruit" more people, or force people to transition - trans people know better than anyone else how shitty it is to have gender dysphoria, and wouldn't want to inflict it on anyone else. What trans people DO want is to support trans youth and help alleviate the shit they're going through.

And now this morning, Rowling is getting coverage on Radio 4 for her blog, with no input from anyone in the Trans community, other than listeners being told by the presenter that Rowling faced a torrent of abuse from trans activists.

[filopastry]

Yes, some bits stood out to me as being quite wrong, but I thought others were valid criticism.

The trouble I’m finding is that I seem to agree with conflicting arguments from both sides of the fence...

While its not a "debate" I have followed in any great detail, I do find it odd that the way people split on this one isn't nearly as predictable as it is on most other social issues. I actually know quite a few social liberals who have sympathy with feminist arguments around trans issues, and even more surprisingly to me, some members of the lesbian and gay communities who feel the same way.

Surprising to me, just because we seem to have entered a culture war on so many issues, with generally the same protagonists  on opposite sides of those issues.

Maybe age plays an even greater part in attitudes to trans issues than it does in some of the other dividing issues of our time.

[J_Kopite]

Given that they don’t need to provide any evidence I don’t see that her statement is in any way wrong though..


You can just say you’re a woman (and vice versa that you’re a man.??)

I’m not sure I think people having to provide evidence like that is necessarily a good thing though...

BIGOT

[HomesickRed]

BIGOT

Useful. Can you expand on this?

[Snail]

If I were a multi-millionaire author of the most successful book series of all time, I would simply shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives. Maybe build a sex dungeon, have some mad parties, but mostly shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives.

[Bobsackamano]

If I were a multi-millionaire author of the most successful book series of all time, I would simply shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives. Maybe build a sex dungeon, have some mad parties, but mostly shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives.

https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w

[Red Viper]

https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w

Oh dear.

[Snail]

https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w

Yes, I am notorious on here for being a raging misogynist.

[J_Kopite]

If I were a multi-millionaire author of the most successful book series of all time, I would simply shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives. Maybe build a sex dungeon, have some mad parties, but mostly shut the fuck up and let people get on with their lives.

Rich women must notoriously be silenced on any topic we disagree with them on, although thanks to her fortune she is totally immune to the vicious misogynistic abuse she receives from so called progressives. Fucking TERFs right!

[Snail]

Rich people notoriously must be silenced on any topic we disagree with them on, and thanks to her fortune is immune to the vicious misogynistic abuse she receives from so called progressives.

I don't condone the abuse she receives, but she's also dishing out plenty herself. I saw she's in the Guardian today saying how being a victim of domestic and sexual abuse has played a part in her opinion on the trans community (), I myself am a victim of both as well and in addition to the bile she sends out to her 15m followers, I massively take issue with her using that as justification. It doesn't even make sense.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/10/jk-rowling-says-survivor-of-domestic-abuse-sexual-assault

[Sheer Magnetism]

How does revealing you've suffered sexual abuse and domestic violence qualify as dishing out abuse to others?

[Snail]

How does revealing you've suffered sexual abuse and domestic violence qualify as dishing out abuse to others?

No, I didn't mean that, apologies if I worded that badly. I was referring to the nonsense she constantly tweets about the trans community, which people on here may not deem abusive or harmful, but myself and plenty others do. Using her past of domestic violence and sexual assault, as someone who has been through that as well, to justify these views doesn't sit well with me. Certainly in my case, I had my drink spiked and was raped by two lads when I was 18, and then I was knocked about for three years by my ex. Don't know how that's the trans community's fault or how it's even relevant.

[Bobsackamano]

How does revealing you've suffered sexual abuse and domestic violence qualify as dishing out abuse to others?

Is that what the kids call 'gaslighting'??

Anyway a previous poster has summed this up much more eloquently than i can manage....

I think this Rowling furore neatly sums up (again) why social media is such a toxic warzone when it comes to reasoned discussion. I think she brings up some interesting points, not that I agree with them all.

The idea that she's a bigot is faintly absurd though. These harmful labels are often thrown about casually as a result of the escalating back and forth nature of Twitter. The platform simply doesn't lend itself to sensible debate. Twitter is perfect for pile-ons like this where you either dig your heels in or you're a transphobe. You either stand with Rowling or you're a "SJW". Repeat this process enough times and the disagreements become more and more vitriolic.

If you genuinely think JK Rowling is a bigot it's because the landscape of social media has become so poisonous and binary that people can now be neatly categorised by whether they're with or against you. There's a whole grey area in the middle where rational discourse is supposed to happen.

[Snail]

Is that what the kids call 'gaslighting'??

You might want to read my posts before you start throwing that word around.

[filopastry]

Is that what the kids call 'gaslighting'??

Anyway a previous poster has summed this up much more eloquently than i can manage....

That is an excellent post from S

[El Lobo]

Is that what the kids call 'gaslighting'??

Anyway a previous poster has summed this up much more eloquently than i can manage....

You could really do with speaking to people with a little more respect when discussing such serious issues....

[Bobsackamano]

You could really do with speaking to people with a little more respect when discussing such serious issues....

I replied to this?

How does revealing you've suffered sexual abuse and domestic violence qualify as dishing out abuse to others?

With a question, is this gaslighting? Im not an expert on these new fangled words so correct me if ive interpreted this wrong but it does seem fit with what Sheer Magnatism is saying?

[Sheer Magnetism]

No, I didn't mean that, apologies if I worded that badly. I was referring to the nonsense she constantly tweets about the trans community, which people on here may not deem abusive or harmful, but myself and plenty others do. Using her past of domestic violence and sexual assault, as someone who has been through that as well, to justify these views doesn't sit well with me. Certainly in my case, I had my drink spiked and was raped by two lads when I was 18, and then I was knocked about for three years by my ex. Don't know how that's the trans community's fault or how it's even relevant.

Yeah, I misconstrued that because those points were together. Rowling making that leap seemed crass to me but I didn't think it was my place to pass judgment, any more than I would with your experience - and I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through all that.