Author Topic: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)  (Read 43936 times)

Offline King Kenny 7

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2020, 01:16:15 am »
Just an ordinary guy in a smallish city with a catholic view on this stuff.





I've never met a trans person who wasn't interesting, who wasn't sensitive and caring, but who also wasn't as tough as a Mersey docker and who hasn't got a life story they could write a book with. That might sound a little cliché and even a bit stereotypical in an unintentional way, but it's just my personal observation and experience.


Then a guy I'd worked with started saying a few things that confused me (and to be honest worried me) and then bang - he announced his transition.


I didn't and couldn't understand it - I knew his kids and was split on my own feelings, how could he do this to them.


My wife helped me balance my thoughts and made me watch a tv show called "The Fosters" and then "Good Trouble" both mainstream ABC shows but it did help me come to terms with my friend and have since spoke to his eldest son in a positive way but his dad has been moved to another area and his old number has died.


Now feel kind of ashamed of myself.




This is not something I know about and dont pretend to understand but think its great that its being talked about on a (silly) football forum.


Fair play to you guys.

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2020, 01:41:32 am »
Now feel kind of ashamed of myself.

No need to feel ashamed, it sounds like you were open minded and eventually came to terms with it in time. That's perfectly reasonable. Hopefully one day you can get in touch with your friend again.
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2020, 04:55:03 am »
I come from a school of wanting all living beings to have happiness, dignity, respect and acceptance and only ever struggle with these feelings when I encounter (in others) character flaws like mean-ness, bullying, selfishness and toxic narcissism.

It is within the latter trait (albeit minus the toxicity) that I feel many may still be "doing battle" with their appraisals when it comes to evaluating folk who are navigating any kind of gender transition phase, be this physical or psychological.

To try and explain precisely what I mean by this, one oft expressed definition of narcissism is:

"Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation..."

And to be truthful, any and all ongoing petitions or campaigns for societal acceptance of gender transition could very easily become entangled in this kind of gross-missappraisal, because the (justifiable) call for trans rights, recognition and equality could ever so easily be misinterpreted as being a wholesale "reference to others" with a view to solidifying self-definition and self-esteem.

But let me quite frank here in my rubbishing of any such claim.

In ANY areas where societal acceptance is not expansively granted to one and all, it is absolutely crucial that the legislature underpins and underwrites the required terms of acceptance, respect and dignity which should be afforded to all people within a civilized society and the seeking of these standards is NOT merely evidence of any insecurity or "narcissism" on the part of those who press for these standards.

The fact that somebody's gender specifics may not immediately resonate or obviate itself to us should (ideally) be neither here nor there to us, and though it may pique interest or curiosity, should never be a cause for mean-ness, incivility or discrimination.

But what about the seemingly more "modern" instance of the gender fluid person where the criteria for gender definition appears to be set based on how this person is "identifying" themselves on any given day?

Could it not be argued that this might just be attempting to extract just a tad too much "deference" from others in general, who by and large.....may not really give a flying fuck about such things, unless a relationship with such a person becomes much closer and intimate, so as to become a friend, lover or confidante who is more than happy to receive those "daily" (gender identity) updates?

I guess I'm trying to say that it behoves society to treat all with dignity, respect and acceptance and in the interests of each-others well-being and happiness, and that is indeed, my own guiding "mantra" but I do not think it behoves society to go around treading on "eggshells" because they lack the mind-reading skills required to ascribe the necessary deference to somebody whose gender identity can change overnight like the wind direction.

I DO believe that there is a high proportion of society who are really keen and willing to accommodate others just as we all wish to be accommodated ourselves, but there appear to be some things which I think we ought to only expect deference to.....at the more intimate and familiar states of relationship, wherein.... how people accept our gender identity truly matters.

As I've outlined earlier in my post, the last thing anybody undergoing gender transition needs is to attract that rather nasty and narrow-minded accusation of narcissism, but I do not think that gender fluid and/or non-binary folk will help the situation if they press too hard for deference amidst folk who may not even acknowledge such a thing exists, or feel that even if it does....that it's only relevant within a close or intimate relationship where the required deference can be given.....on a "day to day" basis, subject how that person is feeling or "identifying."

If a person's gender identity or lack thereof, cannot or does not readily "obviate" itself when that person is out and about within society, then I think it might be a little unfair or harsh to lament people's ready inclination to employ traditional "binary" labels in accordance with how they perceive a person to look. The only way to challenge this would be to go around continuously informing strangers that there is some "hidden" gender issue which requires their deference, and I once again refer to my concerns about why any strangers one meets.... should actually give a flying fuck about this......or why anybody would want those strangers to be privy to such a private or intimate personal characteristic?

*I hope these meditations do not offend, and I offer them respectfully and thoughtfully with a view to the furtherance and expansion of what can often be a very difficult subject to navigate without falling foul of modern propriety.

 :)
 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 01:38:14 pm by ...anything will do. »
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Offline whiteboots

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2020, 08:11:45 am »
Its already happened, numerous times, why the fuck is that not enough? Better still, how many times would be enough? The point I'm making is that it makes predators have easier access to vulnerable women.

As easy as - "What the fuck are you doing here? Get out or I'll call the police?", "I identify as a woman, dont misgender me, Im legally allowed to use this facility, that's a hate crime TERF."
The law at the moment does not require individuals to use toilets assigned to their own birth gender.

You do have to use the toilets for the purposes for which they are intended, and your behaviour must not be such that it is likely to create a breach of the peace.

It works pretty well. Self ID has no impact on this.

Common sense goes a long way. Mixed changing rooms in swimming pools have become increasingly common.

I do accept that open changing rooms where people of the same sex are often naked pose issues when their genitalia is obviously different, but behaviour causes no immediate problem. There is an implicit "threat" there. But very few T's would put themselves in that position.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2020, 11:37:02 am »
That case is a clear failure of prison management. Putting a predatory sexual predator in any prison general population should not happen. If the prison is competent it is not an instructive example.
I suspect that to permanently restrict (put in solitary) a prisoner, even a violent sexual offender, would be an abuse of his/her human rights. If they are not in the general population, where are they? Doing this as a limited punishment may be acceptable (legally speaking). But doing this permanently, and preemptively? That's problematic.
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2020, 01:25:51 pm »
There seems to be some misunderstanding about what self ID actually means. Effectively, the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) to allow self ID do not mean that anyone can just say that they're a man / woman and must be accepted as such in all situations. They simply mean that instead of having to have 2 doctors letters (which can cost a lot of money, many GPs and specialists charge upwards of £50 to fill in a simple form) - and research has consistently shown that trans people have higher rates of unemployment and underemployment than cis people - the trans person can self-declare their gender. This is still a legal document; it's done as a statutory declaration, and it's an offence to make a false stat dec.

This misunderstanding has been spread by certain transphobic groups, as it suits their agenda for people to believe that it means that anyone can simply say one day that they're a woman and that everyone must accept it, as this plays into people's fears especially around toilets.

By the way, there is no law in the UK that says certain only people can use the facilities behind a certain symbol on the door - it's just a societal convention. However, we DO have laws against people assaulting and attacking people, and these apply regardless of the gender of the person or the sign on the door.

Also, if a cis het man wanted to disguise themselves in order to attack a woman in the toilets, rather than claim to be a woman and make a false legal declaration it would be much easier for them to put on some overalls and pretend to be the cleaner, or a maintenance person. And given how many cis het men react when asked to hold their partner's handbag - holding it out in front of them as if it's about to bite them - I can't see many of them wanting to pretend to be a trans woman in order to enter the women's toilets!

Furthermore, why should we discriminate against and place hurdles in front of the trans community because of the behaviour of a small number of people who aren't even part of the community? That's not a good way to make laws!

In terms of refuges etc, a woman doesn't automatically have the right to enter one. An individual risk assessment is carried out on everyone to ensure that they won't be a danger to any of the other residents, who are also very vulnerable. Don't forget, women in same-sex relationships can also be victims (and thus perpetrators) of domestic violence - shelters are already aware of those possible issues as well. The reason that all those organisations in Scotland are happy to support the proposals is because they are already trans inclusive and have not found any problems in this.

As far as trans women competing in sports is concerned, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has had trans inclusion policies since 2003 - the Stockholm Consensus, and many other sports follow these rules also. Since then, there have been 4 Olympic Games - so if it really was a massive advantage in being a trans woman competing in women's sport then don't you think that at least one medal would have been won by a trans woman?!

Right, that's become quite a long and heavy post, so I'll stop there for now - but I might come back to it later!
This post captures/positions a lot of the issues well.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #87 on: June 7, 2020, 11:07:40 am »
Whole social media kick off about J K Rowling being annoyed at nearly half the population of the world being classified as “menstruators”

Her anger at this seems (on the surface) understandable. Not being able to call people who are biologically women, women seems... odd.

Is there not a better way forwards than this?
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #88 on: June 7, 2020, 11:23:16 am »
Whole social media kick off about J K Rowling being annoyed at nearly half the population of the world being classified as “menstruators”

Her anger at this seems (on the surface) understandable. Not being able to call people who are biologically women, women seems... odd.

Is there not a better way forwards than this?

She goes on to write tweets showing she still doesn't understand the difference between gender and sex so it is going to rile people up. Also most of the replies seem to just be quesioning why this is her focus right now in the middle of the BLM protests.

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Offline ljycb

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #89 on: June 7, 2020, 11:26:11 am »
Whole social media kick off about J K Rowling being annoyed at nearly half the population of the world being classified as “menstruators”

Her anger at this seems (on the surface) understandable. Not being able to call people who are biologically women, women seems... odd.

Is there not a better way forwards than this?

I don’t think her anger is understandable at all. First of all, not all women menstruate, second, there will be people who menstruate that don’t identify as a woman. Seems only fair to use “people who menstruate” because that covers all bases and offends no one. And for her to bring this up with her 15m followers during Pride Month, find that absolutely deplorable to be honest. Also Rowling saying to trans people “I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans”, better get marching then!

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #90 on: June 7, 2020, 11:26:54 am »
I mean she goes on to write tweets showing she still doesn't understand the difference between gender and sex so it is going to rile people up. Also most of the replies seem to just be quesioning why this is her focus right now in the middle of the BLM protests.

This one in particular was a doozy, plenty of rightfully pissed off people in the replies to that. Nasty piece of work.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #91 on: June 7, 2020, 11:28:04 am »
Also Rowling saying to trans people “I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans”, better get marching then!

YEs i almost commented on that as well. It's like someone saying "IF black peope are being discrimated against by the cops in USA, I'd be out there protesting myself" as if there is some doubt about it.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #92 on: June 7, 2020, 11:30:15 am »
YEs i almost commented on that as well. It's like someone saying "IF black peope are being discrimated against by the cops in USA, I'd be out there protesting myself" as if there is some doubt about it.

The worst thing about that statement is the fact that she's been using her considerable platform to spout this stuff for a long time now so she has actively contributed to the discrimination the community suffers.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #93 on: June 7, 2020, 11:33:09 am »
I don’t think her anger is understandable at all. First of all, not all women menstruate, second, there will be people who menstruate that don’t identify as a woman. Seems only fair to use “people who menstruate” because that covers all bases and offends no one. And for her to bring this up with her 15m followers during Pride Month, find that absolutely deplorable to be honest. Also Rowling saying to trans people “I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans”, better get marching then!
Surely this is the point?

People who menstruate?

Only biological women menstruate.  So to use the term women isn’t in anyway wrong.

Or have I missed something?
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #94 on: June 7, 2020, 11:36:55 am »
Surely this is the point?

People who menstruate?

Only biological women menstruate.  So to use the term women isn’t in anyway wrong.

Or have I missed something?

You've missed that lots of woman do not menstruate, and some people who identify as men do menstruate.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #95 on: June 7, 2020, 11:39:14 am »
You've missed that lots of woman do not menstruate, and some people who identify as men do menstruate.
But only people who are biologically women can menstruate.

I’ve not missed what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s the right way forwards.
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Offline ljycb

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #96 on: June 7, 2020, 11:41:26 am »
Surely this is the point?

People who menstruate?

Only biological women menstruate.  So to use the term women isn’t in anyway wrong.

Or have I missed something?

Not everyone who menstruates identifies as a woman. Don’t get me wrong, if the article had said “women who menstruate” then I wouldn’t have noticed but by it saying “people who menstruate” it covers all bases.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #97 on: June 7, 2020, 11:44:06 am »
Not everyone who menstruates identifies as a woman. Don’t get me wrong, if the article had said “women who menstruate” then I wouldn’t have noticed but by it saying “people who menstruate” it covers all bases.
But every person who menstruates is biologically female.

They can identify however they want, great, brilliant, be who you want, define yourself how you want, absolutely

But everyone who menstruates is biologically female so why not just use the term biologically female,  this seems far more inclusive to me.  Maybe just me of course
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #98 on: June 7, 2020, 11:46:57 am »
But only people who are biologically women can menstruate.

I’ve not missed what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s the right way forwards.

It would be a lot easier if everyone could all agree to use the words male/female for biological sex and man/woman for gender.

This particular example taken on its own probably doesn't warrant the pile on, it has to be taken in context, that of Rowling having a long history of controversial trans rights comments, and her further tweets in the same thread.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #99 on: June 7, 2020, 11:47:17 am »
But only people who are biologically women can menstruate.

I’ve not missed what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s the right way forwards.

There are non-menstruating women in the world.

What do you call any male to female transexual person if not a woman? This is why people find it problematic.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #100 on: June 7, 2020, 11:47:57 am »
But every person who menstruates is biologically female.

They can identify however they want, great, brilliant, be who you want, define yourself how you want, absolutely

But everyone who menstruates is biologically female so why not just use the term biologically female,  this seems far more inclusive to me.  Maybe just me of course

Why is “biologically female” far more inclusive to you than “people”? Asking this to understand what you mean rather than trying to prompt an argument.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #101 on: June 7, 2020, 11:51:23 am »
Why is “biologically female” far more inclusive to you than “people”? Asking this to understand what you mean rather than trying to prompt an argument.

It’s such a grim discourse. What my womb does every month isn’t what makes me feel like a woman ffs.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #102 on: June 7, 2020, 11:59:23 am »
It’s such a grim discourse. What my womb does every month isn’t what makes me feel like a woman ffs.
Of course it doesn’t, but it does make you biologically a woman.
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #103 on: June 7, 2020, 12:02:07 pm »
Of course it doesn’t, but it does make you biologically a woman.

What about those women who don’t have a womb?

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #104 on: June 7, 2020, 12:08:13 pm »
What about those women who don’t have a womb?
Are you saying people who are Biologically female have to have a womb?


For, me, the way the WHO has phrased this isn’t inclusive, as (I suspect) we risk excluding losing the inclusion of night on 3 billion people world wide.  I’m pretty sure we can find a better way of classifying people.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline ljycb

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #105 on: June 7, 2020, 12:16:42 pm »
Are you saying people who are Biologically female have to have a womb?


For, me, the way the WHO has phrased this isn’t inclusive, as (I suspect) we risk excluding losing the inclusion of night on 3 billion people world wide.  I’m pretty sure we can find a better way of classifying people.

Not at all, that’s what I’m concerned you’re saying! Not even just having a womb, there are a number of things which stop people from being able to menstruate. The argument Rowling uses can easily be thrown back on her because it gives the impression that being an essential part to being a woman is menstruating and that isn’t inclusive to those women who don’t.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #106 on: June 7, 2020, 12:20:21 pm »
Not at all, that’s what I’m concerned you’re saying! Not even just having a womb, there are a number of things which stop people from being able to menstruate. The argument Rowling uses can easily be thrown back on her because it gives the impression that being an essential part to being a woman is menstruating and that isn’t inclusive to those women who don’t.
That’s not at all what I took from it to be honest.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #107 on: June 7, 2020, 12:23:00 pm »
Not at all, that’s what I’m concerned you’re saying! Not even just having a womb, there are a number of things which stop people from being able to menstruate. The argument Rowling uses can easily be thrown back on her because it gives the impression that being an essential part to being a woman is menstruating and that isn’t inclusive to those women who don’t.


A statement “if X, then Y” says nothing about X being false.  Tepid hasn’t actually said women who don’t menstruate aren’t BF.

But I agree with snail that it’s grim discourse, jumped on by transphobes.

By the way, the article had that specific headline because it was about periods. If they’d put “women” instead of “people who menstruate” then it loses information.
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #108 on: June 7, 2020, 02:27:39 pm »
JK Rowling TERFing her legacy into the bin lol. Unsurprising really, she's hinted at some very dodgy views for years.

Enjoyed (the majority) of these replies








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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #109 on: June 7, 2020, 02:30:12 pm »
JK Rowling TERFing her legacy into the bin lol. Unsurprising really, she's hinted at some very dodgy views for years.

The sole irish character who keeps blowing stuff up and the hook nosed goblins that control the banks and are obsessed with gold were particularly illuminating.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #110 on: June 7, 2020, 02:36:21 pm »
The single-minded arrogance of the timing as well. JK Rowling with her enormous following and influence, has decided this is what's important to post today. Middle of a global pandemic, at the peak of Black Lives Matter protests shaking the US and UK - "Hello! Spotlight on me please! I'm announcing I'm on this side of the trans debate!" Hi Jo, not sure if you noticed but black people are trying to have their voices heard at the moment.
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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #111 on: June 7, 2020, 02:38:28 pm »
Her and Graham Linehan, two bigoted peas in a pod.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #112 on: June 7, 2020, 02:49:53 pm »
What did she say?

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #113 on: June 7, 2020, 03:00:20 pm »
What did she say?
she had an issue with an article which had ‘people who menstruate’ when they could have said ‘women’ instead, not sure why there is a massive outrage as her stance is pretty well known by now so it’s hardly news

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #114 on: June 7, 2020, 03:46:00 pm »
Not everyone who menstruates identifies as a woman. Don’t get me wrong, if the article had said “women who menstruate” then I wouldn’t have noticed but by it saying “people who menstruate” it covers all bases.

Why should language have to change to placate a tiny vocal minority of people, no one is denying anyone's right to exist but to menstrate you either  are a woman or were a woman.

Having to say bleeders or menstrators  is fucking ridiculous.  Are they genuinely worried that people won't understand the topic.

No bollocks it's because however they want to identify themselves is the only thing that matters.




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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #115 on: June 7, 2020, 03:51:36 pm »
she had an issue with an article which had ‘people who menstruate’ when they could have said ‘women’ instead, not sure why there is a massive outrage as her stance is pretty well known by now so it’s hardly news

Didn't read the above posts so missed what was said.

If she would have said females menstruate, would people have accepted that?

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #116 on: June 7, 2020, 03:52:45 pm »
Not everyone who menstruates identifies as a woman. Don’t get me wrong, if the article had said “women who menstruate” then I wouldn’t have noticed but by it saying “people who menstruate” it covers all bases.

That's laughable to be honest. So I shouldn't say women menstruate, I have to say people to risk offending someone?

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #117 on: June 7, 2020, 03:54:46 pm »
Didn't read the above posts so missed what was said.

If she would have said females menstruate, would people have accepted that?
I think that would have been better phrasing. I don't have a huge issue with what she is saying  here per se. It is the context of who is saying it, what she goes on to say and what she has said on the subject in the past that raises eyebrows.

Rowling is a vile, nasty piece of work, the more people that start to realise it, the better.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #118 on: June 7, 2020, 03:59:25 pm »
I think that would have been better phrasing. I don't have a huge issue with what she is saying  here per se. It is the context of who is saying it, what she goes on to say and what she has said on the subject in the past that raises eyebrows.

Rowling is a vile, nasty piece of work, the more people that start to realise it, the better.

It is going to be funny seeing the mental gymnastics going on in peoples head as to whether they should still read or watch her work now though.

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Re: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)
« Reply #119 on: June 7, 2020, 04:06:02 pm »
I think that would have been better phrasing. I don't have a huge issue with what she is saying  here per se. It is the context of who is saying it, what she goes on to say and what she has said on the subject in the past that raises eyebrows.

Rowling is a vile, nasty piece of work, the more people that start to realise it, the better.

She's always seemed a very nice lady to me.

"In 2000, Rowling established the Volant Charitable Trust, which uses its annual budget of £5.1 million to combat poverty and social inequality. The fund also gives to organisations that aid children, one-parent families, and multiple sclerosis research."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._K._Rowling