Author Topic: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles  (Read 144113 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,324
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2720 on: August 28, 2019, 02:55:30 pm »
Almost as if 2011 was a lifetime away. 1000+ convictions, 3000+ arrests. Salford was feisty for a bit.

More saliently, one thing which this has really shown to me is that it's cut through to people I wasn't expecting. Seeing Tories I know outraged by the "anti-democratic" politics of this, proper 'leave' Tories too - albeit not the Frottage wing, has surprised me.
Yeah, same for me with some (not many) US politicians, Republican Strategists, GOP members, etc. It has made me realise that with some, our differences are sincerely held positions and views. However, there are a shit load of them (and loads on the left too), who will do anything to further particular agenda. I don't know why I am so surprised - history is littered with examples.

So, are you at all hopeful that there are enough high-minded MPs across the parties who will get together to prevent this?
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,803
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2721 on: August 28, 2019, 02:56:30 pm »
The Withdrawal Agreement is, to all intents and purposes, an extension of time under Article 50.

edit: ie it's the preconditions for an extension of time in which to then negotiate the future relationship.
Am not sure if thats correct to be honest, you may well be right but I look at it from what the EU have said, if we have a no deal then they won't talk until we accept the WA, if the WA was a sort of extension of art 50 then the WA would become void after we have left with a no deal.
@David__Osland
Leaving the European Union has completely destroyed the Conservative Party. If that doesn't qualify as a concrete Brexit benefit, what does?

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2722 on: August 28, 2019, 03:09:18 pm »
Am not sure if thats correct to be honest, you may well be right but I look at it from what the EU have said, if we have a no deal then they won't talk until we accept the WA, if the WA was a sort of extension of art 50 then the WA would become void after we have left with a no deal.
As we've discussed before, they would mean the conditions and obligations contained within the WA, rather than the WA itself, which would cease to have currency after a No Deal. And there'd be no transition period either.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2723 on: August 28, 2019, 03:14:48 pm »
So how do the French consistently manage?

Why can't we do anything?

How did we manage to do something about the poll tax?
I don't know, as I said I wasn't necessarily agreeing with the claim.

The French seem to have it in their character, certainly since 1789. And the Poll Tax riots were after the fact - after people had suffered genuine privation - rather than, as we're talking here, objections to a point of process.

Maybe the British public will surprise us and rise up en masse (if that phrase is still allowed) but I would be surprised. I do expect some organised protests, though, just not anything dramatic.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2724 on: August 28, 2019, 03:17:25 pm »
Yeah, same for me with some (not many) US politicians, Republican Strategists, GOP members, etc. It has made me realise that with some, our differences are sincerely held positions and views. However, there are a shit load of them (and loads on the left too), who will do anything to further particular agenda. I don't know why I am so surprised - history is littered with examples.

So, are you at all hopeful that there are enough high-minded MPs across the parties who will get together to prevent this?

Goes back to some things not cutting between left/right on economics (as such), doesn't it?

There's enough of a majority to stop 'no deal'. Question isn't really that so much as 'how?' and 'then what?'. Because there's no majority for anything else. And just stopping 'no deal' isn't enough - MPs opposed to Johnson have to win an election. Would have to be an idiot to think you could predict what that'll throw out. I mean,this is Wales, so lord knows. Temptation must be to pass the Withdrawal Agreement with tinkerings, numbers for that may look a bit more favorable depending on how hard Labour whip the vote (other side effect of being a permanent rebel in your own party is that you've no right to expect anyone to sacrifice themselves for your political whims).
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,609
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2725 on: August 28, 2019, 03:22:04 pm »
As we've discussed before, they would mean the conditions and obligations contained within the WA, rather than the WA itself, which would cease to have currency after a No Deal. And there'd be no transition period either.

That's the way I see it.

The bottom line is that 'No-Deal' is a meaningless term unless the UK decides never to trade with the EU in the future. At some point we will need a deal with the EU and at that point all the posturing and jingoistic bullshit will have to be set aside and the 'divorce bill' will need to be paid, the status of EU citizens will need to be rationalised, either a permanent plan for the NI border or some form of temporary arrangement (let's call it a backstop) will need to be agreed etc.

'No-deal' just means 'No-Withdrawal-Agreement' and an un-managed negotiation process.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2726 on: August 28, 2019, 03:23:30 pm »
Am not sure if thats correct to be honest, you may well be right but I look at it from what the EU have said, if we have a no deal then they won't talk until we accept the WA, if the WA was a sort of extension of art 50 then the WA would become void after we have left with a no deal.

Think that may be a blurring of what the WA contains vs the extension of time (and effectively remaining within SM+CU even though no longer an EU member - aka 'transition period') which comes with signing off on it.

From Menon's academic thinktank

Quote
EU rules (Article 50) set out that once a member state has sent a notification that it wants to leave the EU, “the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal”.

These arrangements are contained in the draft Withdrawal Agreement that the UK and EU have been negotiating. The draft Withdrawal Agreement is concerned entirely with terminating the UK’s membership, such as its financial obligations, the status of citizens in both the UK and the EU, and how the Irish border will continue to function. Discussions about future trading arrangements between the UK and EU are separate from the Withdrawal Agreement. The EU will not start negotiating that until after the UK has left the EU.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/what-is-the-withdrawal-agreement/

So, no WA, and we leave. But there's no 'transition period'. So no more being in the SM+CU, even if it were only to be for a couple more years (though likely much longer) til the future relationship is sorted. No WA and we're not under Article 50 any more so everything goes back to every EU member state for agreement.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline alonsoisared

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,727
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2727 on: August 28, 2019, 03:33:38 pm »
There's been fucking huge protests over Brexit and none of them have achieved a thing.

I don't think the lack of wide scale protest today is down to being subservient or whatever. Primarily it's probably because it takes a bit longer than a few hours to arrange a massive protest nowadays. But also, is it not that this is what the people want? "The people" voted leave three years ago and I genuinely think they would vote the same way tomorrow, my instinct says probably by even more than the last time. For every person who voted Brexit who has been on the news saying they didn't realise what they voted for etc there's been a remainer saying that we should respect the vote.

I don't think people sat at home in the aftermath of Brexit, pulled out a couple of books and suddenly educated themselves on the pro's and con's and suddenly changed their minds. People couldn't be fucked to research it past the political grandstanding they saw on the news, in the papers and all over social media for the year running up to the referendum, so what would make them change their minds since? Equally, I don't believe that people saw any further past the simple suggestion of "leaving", certainly not to the extent of having a deal or not. The people who voted didn't give a shit about the technicalities and I believe they still don't, they just want to leave.

Education has to be the answer to all this. Not just learning about politics but critical thinking and understanding the media. We're a nation of hopelessly ill-educated people on these matters but then so are most others. And you can hardly blame people for it either, it's the way we've all been brought up. The difference is that our dickhead prime minister of the time decided to let us decide something we quite obviously didn't understand.

I think people are tired of it. It's fucking boring. It doesn't help that you go on twitter and see some daft fucking idiot doing tours of Europe funded by her follower's contributions, singing songs on her acoustic guitar about how wonderful Europe is.  It doesn't help that people who voted remain slag off the entire country, its history and its people. I'm no ultra patriot, I live and work in Spain and lots of fellow young English people here profess their shame at their nationality and its politics. They must have missed the Spanish police beating the shit out of the Catalan people for trying to have a vote. There is an attitude of "you're all fucking idiots and I hate this country" about remain voters that helps fuel the right wing bullshit about traitors and whatnot. The left needs to reclaim patriotism if they ever want to win the majority of the public over but at the moment it's a dirty word. The Welsh and Scottish are doing it with success but we continue to leak voters because of it.

For the record I obviously voted remain and I'm worried about what is to come in the next few months. I'm hoping with my employment I should be alright for a little while longer here at least but who knows. The enemies in all this are the absolute fucking wankers who put our country's future in jeapordy to win an election, and those absolute fucking wankers who have kept it all going for their own careers, statuses and monetary gain. But I don't hate the people of Britain who bought in to what they were sold. I probably did at the time of the vote but I see it differently now. You get caught up in social media, you see the worst of the right wing and you see the worst of the left. But it's normal, average working people who went out and voted for Brexit. If you met them in the pub you'd probably get along with most of them a dream and would agree to disagree on the politics, like we would've done in years gone by. Now though it's all insults and hatred.

British people certainly have their own characteristics and you definitely notice it more being away and hearing what other people have to say about you. But I think many of the shortcomings people complain about; not being politically educated, not taking to the streets every time something happens in Westminster that sounds bad, an underlying xenophabia (not so underlying when you look online), a habit of succumbing to echo chambers, swallowing up fake news etc etc etc, none of it is at all unique to Britain. It's the world we live in. Our best hope is to get educating our children properly on those aforementioned matters that will be crucial in their adult lives, so they know what to believe and what not to believe, so they understand bias in the media and how to recognise it. Turning on each other just helps fuel the chaos.

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2728 on: August 28, 2019, 03:38:29 pm »
Cummings has always said that Parliament is outdated, not fit for purpose and doesn't have as much power as it thinks it does (or words to that effect).

Also, the shite "opposition" has created the perfect storm where something like this could happen.

The MPs who voted for Article 50 are all responsible for this.

and more generally, anyone who helped to legitimise the "the will of the people must be respected", "the result of the referendum must be honoured" etc rhetoric

They fed the beast, and are now are complaining that it might eat them.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,324
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2729 on: August 28, 2019, 03:39:41 pm »
I don't know, as I said I wasn't necessarily agreeing with the claim.

The French seem to have it in their character, certainly since 1789. And the Poll Tax riots were after the fact - after people had suffered genuine privation - rather than, as we're talking here, objections to a point of process.

Maybe the British public will surprise us and rise up en masse (if that phrase is still allowed) but I would be surprised. I do expect some organised protests, though, just not anything dramatic.
I've said it before, but I expect the protests to come after Brexit, and from that twats who voted in favour of it in the first place. Most will be unable to connect the dots, but protest they will when there is a power outage and they miss Strictly, or I'm a celebrity, etc. Lord knows what they will do when they lose their jobs, there are rations, and they can longer fly to Majorca for their hols without applying for a visa and queuing up at the airport for half a day (for the lucky few who can still afford it, of course).

The only positive from all this is the tough lesson these people will learn. Shame everyone else has experience it too.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,609
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2730 on: August 28, 2019, 03:41:52 pm »
...But it's normal, average working people who went out and voted for Brexit. If you met them in the pub you'd probably get along with most of them a dream and would agree to disagree on the politics, like we would've done in years gone by. Now though it's all insults and hatred...


Based on my own experience I don't think that's true. Ive been involved in massive rows with Brexit supporters and I honestly don;t think I could remain friends with someone who thinks so differently on such an important issue.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline jason67

  • He likes the 15cm morning glory boy!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,917
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2731 on: August 28, 2019, 03:47:02 pm »
There's been fucking huge protests over Brexit and none of them have achieved a thing.

I don't think the lack of wide scale protest today is down to being subservient or whatever. Primarily it's probably because it takes a bit longer than a few hours to arrange a massive protest nowadays. But also, is it not that this is what the people want? "The people" voted leave three years ago and I genuinely think they would vote the same way tomorrow, my instinct says probably by even more than the last time. For every person who voted Brexit who has been on the news saying they didn't realise what they voted for etc there's been a remainer saying that we should respect the vote.

I don't think people sat at home in the aftermath of Brexit, pulled out a couple of books and suddenly educated themselves on the pro's and con's and suddenly changed their minds. People couldn't be fucked to research it past the political grandstanding they saw on the news, in the papers and all over social media for the year running up to the referendum, so what would make them change their minds since? Equally, I don't believe that people saw any further past the simple suggestion of "leaving", certainly not to the extent of having a deal or not. The people who voted didn't give a shit about the technicalities and I believe they still don't, they just want to leave.

Education has to be the answer to all this. Not just learning about politics but critical thinking and understanding the media. We're a nation of hopelessly ill-educated people on these matters but then so are most others. And you can hardly blame people for it either, it's the way we've all been brought up. The difference is that our dickhead prime minister of the time decided to let us decide something we quite obviously didn't understand.

I think people are tired of it. It's fucking boring. It doesn't help that you go on twitter and see some daft fucking idiot doing tours of Europe funded by her follower's contributions, singing songs on her acoustic guitar about how wonderful Europe is.  It doesn't help that people who voted remain slag off the entire country, its history and its people. I'm no ultra patriot, I live and work in Spain and lots of fellow young English people here profess their shame at their nationality and its politics. They must have missed the Spanish police beating the shit out of the Catalan people for trying to have a vote. There is an attitude of "you're all fucking idiots and I hate this country" about remain voters that helps fuel the right wing bullshit about traitors and whatnot. The left needs to reclaim patriotism if they ever want to win the majority of the public over but at the moment it's a dirty word. The Welsh and Scottish are doing it with success but we continue to leak voters because of it.

For the record I obviously voted remain and I'm worried about what is to come in the next few months. I'm hoping with my employment I should be alright for a little while longer here at least but who knows. The enemies in all this are the absolute fucking wankers who put our country's future in jeapordy to win an election, and those absolute fucking wankers who have kept it all going for their own careers, statuses and monetary gain. But I don't hate the people of Britain who bought in to what they were sold. I probably did at the time of the vote but I see it differently now. You get caught up in social media, you see the worst of the right wing and you see the worst of the left. But it's normal, average working people who went out and voted for Brexit. If you met them in the pub you'd probably get along with most of them a dream and would agree to disagree on the politics, like we would've done in years gone by. Now though it's all insults and hatred.

British people certainly have their own characteristics and you definitely notice it more being away and hearing what other people have to say about you. But I think many of the shortcomings people complain about; not being politically educated, not taking to the streets every time something happens in Westminster that sounds bad, an underlying xenophabia (not so underlying when you look online), a habit of succumbing to echo chambers, swallowing up fake news etc etc etc, none of it is at all unique to Britain. It's the world we live in. Our best hope is to get educating our children properly on those aforementioned matters that will be crucial in their adult lives, so they know what to believe and what not to believe, so they understand bias in the media and how to recognise it. Turning on each other just helps fuel the chaos.

Excellent post mate.
At last the TRUTH 26th April 2016

Still don't buy the s*n.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2732 on: August 28, 2019, 03:47:39 pm »
But I don't hate the people of Britain who bought in to what they were sold.

They were sold a lie and should have had the brains to find this out. I blame them as much as the right wing scum who feed them the lies.

an underlying xenophabia (not so underlying when you look online),

The xenophobia/racism in this country is up front and blatant in the majority. You won't notice it if like me your friends and social circle are educated, thinking liberal types. Try a building site/working mans pub/unskilled production line etc.

The big mistake was allowing uneducated people to decide on an extremely complicated issue and allow them to be fed lies by those with vested interests.

Overall this was a xenophobic/racist decision by leavers.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2733 on: August 28, 2019, 03:49:28 pm »
There's been fucking huge protests over Brexit and none of them have achieved a thing.

I don't think the lack of wide scale protest today is down to being subservient or whatever. Primarily it's probably because it takes a bit longer than a few hours to arrange a massive protest nowadays. But also, is it not that this is what the people want? "The people" voted leave three years ago and I genuinely think they would vote the same way tomorrow, my instinct says probably by even more than the last time. For every person who voted Brexit who has been on the news saying they didn't realise what they voted for etc there's been a remainer saying that we should respect the vote.

I don't think people sat at home in the aftermath of Brexit, pulled out a couple of books and suddenly educated themselves on the pro's and con's and suddenly changed their minds. People couldn't be fucked to research it past the political grandstanding they saw on the news, in the papers and all over social media for the year running up to the referendum, so what would make them change their minds since? Equally, I don't believe that people saw any further past the simple suggestion of "leaving", certainly not to the extent of having a deal or not. The people who voted didn't give a shit about the technicalities and I believe they still don't, they just want to leave.

Education has to be the answer to all this. Not just learning about politics but critical thinking and understanding the media. We're a nation of hopelessly ill-educated people on these matters but then so are most others. And you can hardly blame people for it either, it's the way we've all been brought up. The difference is that our dickhead prime minister of the time decided to let us decide something we quite obviously didn't understand.

I think people are tired of it. It's fucking boring. It doesn't help that you go on twitter and see some daft fucking idiot doing tours of Europe funded by her follower's contributions, singing songs on her acoustic guitar about how wonderful Europe is.  It doesn't help that people who voted remain slag off the entire country, its history and its people. I'm no ultra patriot, I live and work in Spain and lots of fellow young English people here profess their shame at their nationality and its politics. They must have missed the Spanish police beating the shit out of the Catalan people for trying to have a vote. There is an attitude of "you're all fucking idiots and I hate this country" about remain voters that helps fuel the right wing bullshit about traitors and whatnot. The left needs to reclaim patriotism if they ever want to win the majority of the public over but at the moment it's a dirty word. The Welsh and Scottish are doing it with success but we continue to leak voters because of it.

For the record I obviously voted remain and I'm worried about what is to come in the next few months. I'm hoping with my employment I should be alright for a little while longer here at least but who knows. The enemies in all this are the absolute fucking wankers who put our country's future in jeapordy to win an election, and those absolute fucking wankers who have kept it all going for their own careers, statuses and monetary gain. But I don't hate the people of Britain who bought in to what they were sold. I probably did at the time of the vote but I see it differently now. You get caught up in social media, you see the worst of the right wing and you see the worst of the left. But it's normal, average working people who went out and voted for Brexit. If you met them in the pub you'd probably get along with most of them a dream and would agree to disagree on the politics, like we would've done in years gone by. Now though it's all insults and hatred.

British people certainly have their own characteristics and you definitely notice it more being away and hearing what other people have to say about you. But I think many of the shortcomings people complain about; not being politically educated, not taking to the streets every time something happens in Westminster that sounds bad, an underlying xenophabia (not so underlying when you look online), a habit of succumbing to echo chambers, swallowing up fake news etc etc etc, none of it is at all unique to Britain. It's the world we live in. Our best hope is to get educating our children properly on those aforementioned matters that will be crucial in their adult lives, so they know what to believe and what not to believe, so they understand bias in the media and how to recognise it. Turning on each other just helps fuel the chaos.

You'd fit in brilliantly at the Guardian with the "I blame Remainers for the shitshow that is Brexit" perspective.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2734 on: August 28, 2019, 03:53:56 pm »
I've said it before, but I expect the protests to come after Brexit, and from that twats who voted in favour of it in the first place. Most will be unable to connect the dots, but protest they will when there is a power outage and they miss Strictly, or I'm a celebrity, etc. Lord knows what they will do when they lose their jobs, there are rations, and they can longer fly to Majorca for their hols without applying for a visa and queuing up at the airport for half a day (for the lucky few who can still afford it, of course).

The only positive from all this is the tough lesson these people will learn. Shame everyone else has experience it too.

Spot on with this post.

"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2735 on: August 28, 2019, 03:56:16 pm »
That's the way I see it.

The bottom line is that 'No-Deal' is a meaningless term unless the UK decides never to trade with the EU in the future. At some point we will need a deal with the EU and at that point all the posturing and jingoistic bullshit will have to be set aside and the 'divorce bill' will need to be paid, the status of EU citizens will need to be rationalised, either a permanent plan for the NI border or some form of temporary arrangement (let's call it a backstop) will need to be agreed etc.

'No-deal' just means 'No-Withdrawal-Agreement' and an un-managed negotiation process.
Yep, and for all those reasons we should start calling it 'No Fucking Plan', or the more family friendly 'No Plan' rather than 'No Deal'. Get the Remain Twitterati using and popularising that instead of FBPE and all that shite. Beat the opposition at their own game by using language to highlight their lack of a plan or clue.

'No Deal' sounds like something said from a position of strength, the kind of thing you say if the person you're dealing with is a chancer: 'Sorry pal, no deal, I'm off'.

Somehow people need to realise that No Deal means No Plan, even though a plan is essential. It'll mean all that shock and upheaval and cost and privation and even fatalities for nothing, because ultimately, we'll have to sign up to plans anyway

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline gamble

  • andproctor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,837
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2736 on: August 28, 2019, 03:56:48 pm »
We have the hard Brexiteers in power and they said they would deliver a hard brexit. Why would anyone think that wasn’t going to happen?

parliamentary sovereignty my arse. Shows what they think of parliament and democracy

Online TheShanklyGates

  • Firmly in the "shake it all about" camp
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,101
  • Outside The Shankly Gates...
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2737 on: August 28, 2019, 03:57:02 pm »
I've said it before, but I expect the protests to come after Brexit, and from that twats who voted in favour of it in the first place. Most will be unable to connect the dots, but protest they will when there is a power outage and they miss Strictly, or I'm a celebrity, etc. Lord knows what they will do when they lose their jobs, there are rations, and they can longer fly to Majorca for their hols without applying for a visa and queuing up at the airport for half a day (for the lucky few who can still afford it, of course).

The only positive from all this is the tough lesson these people will learn. Shame everyone else has experience it too.

It won't be the right lesson though. It will be the fault of remainers, MPs, the judiciary, civil servants, the evil EU. It won't be the fault of them or their precious Brexit and they'll continue to vote against their own best interests again and again and again.

Johnson and Cummings are already laying the groundwork for the stab in back myth to take hold. It's only going to get worse from here.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Offline Snail

  • Disgusted by you. Snail murdering S h e e p. Ms Soppy Twat Potty Mouth. The Annabel Chong of RAWK's X-Factor. Likes giving Sir Cliff of Richard one.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,994
  • How are we
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2738 on: August 28, 2019, 04:04:21 pm »
Based on my own experience I don't think that's true. Ive been involved in massive rows with Brexit supporters and I honestly don;t think I could remain friends with someone who thinks so differently on such an important issue.

My dad and I have had blazing rows over it which literally ended in tears.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2739 on: August 28, 2019, 04:14:31 pm »
Based on my own experience I don't think that's true. Ive been involved in massive rows with Brexit supporters and I honestly don;t think I could remain friends with someone who thinks so differently on such an important issue.

It's weird. My closest friend is a Brexiter. She's also a Tory. Maybe 20 years of continual skirmishing on issues has taken the edge off it, or at least we can disagree without leaving too many marks. She's now not impressed at all with Johnson doing this. Much as 27% of Tories apparently aren't.



(via The Times (paywall))

Less a dog whistle, more a fog horn for a big chunk of current Tories. Not sure where I classify on this, probably Labour 'not acceptable' as I'm still technically a member in arrears and Yougov polled me on this earlier today.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2740 on: August 28, 2019, 04:22:43 pm »
Some interesting points alonsoisared, which I'd like to respond to:

There's been fucking huge protests over Brexit and none of them have achieved a thing.

I don't think the lack of wide scale protest today is down to being subservient or whatever. Primarily it's probably because it takes a bit longer than a few hours to arrange a massive protest nowadays.
I don't think anyone is bemoaning lack of protests today or right this minute; the claim is that even if the government successfully subvert the democratic process, or put another way, pull a fast one, over the next few weeks, people will just sit there and take it, rather than rising up en masse in protest, despite claiming to be passionate about democracy.

At this stage we're all still hoping that MPs will be able to take control and neuter any of Cummings's shananigans, so influencing MPs rather than protesting a potential coup, is what is in the forefront of our minds. And I imagine there will be some organised protests. There's the big one in October, but no doubt there'll be some before that if the government get their way

Quote
But also, is it not that this is what the people want? "The people" voted leave three years ago and I genuinely think they would vote the same way tomorrow, my instinct says probably by even more than the last time. For every person who voted Brexit who has been on the news saying they didn't realise what they voted for etc there's been a remainer saying that we should respect the vote.
Sure, but you'd still expect those who voted against and, separately, those who do not take kindly to the government trying to sideline Parliament, to make their voices heard.



Quote
I think people are tired of it. It's fucking boring. It doesn't help that you go on twitter and see some daft fucking idiot doing tours of Europe funded by her follower's contributions, singing songs on her acoustic guitar about how wonderful Europe is.  It doesn't help that people who voted remain slag off the entire country, its history and its people. I'm no ultra patriot, I live and work in Spain and lots of fellow young English people here profess their shame at their nationality and its politics. They must have missed the Spanish police beating the shit out of the Catalan people for trying to have a vote. There is an attitude of "you're all fucking idiots and I hate this country" about remain voters that helps fuel the right wing bullshit about traitors and whatnot. The left needs to reclaim patriotism if they ever want to win the majority of the public over but at the moment it's a dirty word. The Welsh and Scottish are doing it with success but we continue to leak voters because of it.
Self-effacement is also part of the British character, though. We're not the US, we don't fetishise the nation in the same way; that's why very patriotic/nationalistic rhetoric sounds a bit icky to most of us. It's not that we don't care for our country - if there was an invasion you'd soon see that people do care - it's that being overdemonstrative about it is, well, not cricket.

And because of this, when people do become too demonstratively and vocally patriotic there's always more than a suspicion that this isn't positive, celebratory patriotism, but rather negative, destructive, intolerant, authoritarian and dangerous poison.

I do agree, though, that there's far too much anger and name-calling and intolerance and refusal to even try and understand other points of view  - and believe me I am the biggest offender in this regard, so I'm not really having a go at anyone else but myself. It's a peculiarity of liberalism that it is incredibly intolerant and demanding of the 'other'. But that's a whole other subject.


Quote
For the record I obviously voted remain and I'm worried about what is to come in the next few months. I'm hoping with my employment I should be alright for a little while longer here at least but who knows. The enemies in all this are the absolute fucking wankers who put our country's future in jeapordy to win an election, and those absolute fucking wankers who have kept it all going for their own careers, statuses and monetary gain. But I don't hate the people of Britain who bought in to what they were sold. I probably did at the time of the vote but I see it differently now. You get caught up in social media, you see the worst of the right wing and you see the worst of the left. But it's normal, average working people who went out and voted for Brexit. If you met them in the pub you'd probably get along with most of them a dream and would agree to disagree on the politics, like we would've done in years gone by. Now though it's all insults and hatred.

The point here isn't that ordinary people should be blamed for voting Leave - many have had their views shaped by media reporting and outright lies; they were victims of manufactured dissent, if anything.

The problem is that these same people won't adjust their views when they are shown that they were wrong, that they were lied to etc. Doubling down on patent bollocks isn't a sign of being an innocent victim of an organised right wing coup; it's a sign of irresponsible pig-headedness or downright stupidity.

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline Betty Blue

  • 37.2 deg @ 2am. Big Fat Scaredy Cat. "Tonight Matthew, I will be Lancelot Du Lac!"
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,339
  • JFT96
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2741 on: August 28, 2019, 04:35:41 pm »
FYI. The following anti-prorogation protests are already planned/ongoing today and tomorrow -

London, Westminster, College Green - 5.30pm

Cardiff, Aneurin Bevan Statue - 6pm

Cambridge, Market Square - 6pm

Leeds, City Square - Thursday 5.30pm

Edinburgh, The Mound - 4.30pm

Manchester, Albert Square - 4pm
"Don’t let your heads drop. We’re Liverpool. You’re playing for Liverpool. Don’t forget that. You have to hold your heads high for the supporters. You have to do it for them." - Rafa Benitez, halftime, Istanbul, 2005.

Offline alonsoisared

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,727
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2742 on: August 28, 2019, 04:46:05 pm »
Based on my own experience I don't think that's true. Ive been involved in massive rows with Brexit supporters and I honestly don;t think I could remain friends with someone who thinks so differently on such an important issue.
I suppose it depends on how far into the argument you want to go and how much you want to challenge them, as opposed to accepting you'll never win eachother round ;D

Probably half my family voted to leave. Mostly Labour voters but i'd say they're the typical British family in the sense that they don't follow things that closely, two of them have retired to Spain and don't know a word of the language, their hearts are in the right place but every now and then they'll come out with something that you just know has come directly from the tele or the Daily Mail. In the lead up to the referendum I saw my uncle sharing things on Facebook that were just obviously bollocks, probably paid for by Cambridge Analytica. I challenged him on a couple of things but when the argument about fishermen came into it and he'd completed Brexit bingo I knew it was hopeless.

So i've got two choices, accept that it's just the way they are or never drop it, have a blazing row and never speak to any of them again. I don't think they're idiots, I don't think they're bad people. I think some classic little England xenophobia rears its head sometimes, just like it does from one or two mates or people you've known all your life that you hear in the pub. But I think they're good people, in fact I know that they're good people. I mentioned Cambridge Analytica before and it's something that the left are well read on and have rightly been calling out. But if we accept that those methods of propaganda worked, as they have all throughout history, then to what extent can we blame people for swallowing it up? Where is the line between being fucking stupid subservient wankers and being human? It's like having an otherwise loving, caring nan who comes out with the odd racist remark. Do you roll your eyes and accept that she was brought up that way and she's a product of her generation or do you go on Twitter and call her a horrible old c*nt?

You'd fit in brilliantly at the Guardian with the "I blame Remainers for the shitshow that is Brexit" perspective.
Brexit isn't the fault of remainers. In fact I quite explicitly said who I blame in the post; the opportunists who used this to win elections and to further their own political careers. I'm saying that name calling (as tempting as it so often is) doesn't help. And more to the point I really think the self loathing doesn't help either. As I said, the left in practically every other country manage to stake a claim on patriotism. Our left are incredibly prone to the"you're all idiots and i'm getting out of this shithole as soon as I can" shouts and, when you consider that Brexit seemed basically won by jingoism and bollocks about putting the Great in Great Britain, then it stands to reason that it's not a great tactic. The left need to reclaim national pride and I think it's a major problem beyond Brexit as well.

Offline alonsoisared

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,727
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2743 on: August 28, 2019, 05:01:47 pm »
Some interesting points alonsoisared, which I'd like to respond to:
I don't think anyone is bemoaning lack of protests today or right this minute; the claim is that even if the government successfully subvert the democratic process, or put another way, pull a fast one, over the next few weeks, people will just sit there and take it, rather than rising up en masse in protest, despite claiming to be passionate about democracy.

At this stage we're all still hoping that MPs will be able to take control and neuter any of Cummings's shananigans, so influencing MPs rather than protesting a potential coup, is what is in the forefront of our minds. And I imagine there will be some organised protests. There's the big one in October, but no doubt there'll be some before that if the government get their way
Sure, but you'd still expect those who voted against and, separately, those who do not take kindly to the government trying to sideline Parliament, to make their voices heard.


Self-effacement is also part of the British character, though. We're not the US, we don't fetishise the nation in the same way; that's why very patriotic/nationalistic rhetoric sounds a bit icky to most of us. It's not that we don't care for our country - if there was an invasion you'd soon see that people do care - it's that being overdemonstrative about it is, well, not cricket.

And because of this, when people do become too demonstratively and vocally patriotic there's always more than a suspicion that this isn't positive, celebratory patriotism, but rather negative, destructive, intolerant, authoritarian and dangerous poison.


I do agree, though, that there's far too much anger and name-calling and intolerance and refusal to even try and understand other points of view  - and believe me I am the biggest offender in this regard, so I'm not really having a go at anyone else but myself. It's a peculiarity of liberalism that it is incredibly intolerant and demanding of the 'other'. But that's a whole other subject.

 
The point here isn't that ordinary people should be blamed for voting Leave - many have had their views shaped by media reporting and outright lies; they were victims of manufactured dissent, if anything.

The problem is that these same people won't adjust their views when they are shown that they were wrong, that they were lied to etc. Doubling down on patent bollocks isn't a sign of being an innocent victim of an organised right wing coup; it's a sign of irresponsible pig-headedness or downright stupidity.


Apologies, I had already written out my last reply before seeing this mate.

Your point in bold is a really good one and I agree. I just think it needs to change if the left are ever going to get anywhere. I was too young to directly comment on this but using Britpop as an example, it was a time where the left managed to champion the country and it was a major part of winning that election. They were the patriotic choice. Like I said, I was too young and I may be completely wrong on that but it doesn't seem coincidental to me. If we accept that Britain is full of "little Englanders", which let's face it, it is, then we have to find a way to win them over with our political arguments. They're not going to change!

Your final point is also a good one and I understand that. It's infuriating seeing the some arguments on Twitter, the same myths being debunked that had been debunked three and a half years ago. But again, I don't think anyone can change that. It's human nature. People don't like being told that they were lied to, or that they were suckered in by propaganda. It's bad for pride and makes them feel stupid. And these beliefs that they've picked up from the last few years are essentially underlined by a lifetime of other believes drummed into them from newspapers, their parents and their social groups. Nobody will win a Brexiteer over by arguing with them. It's too late. The only hope is to educate people while they're young.

Offline alonsoisared

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,727
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2744 on: August 28, 2019, 05:03:28 pm »
They were sold a lie and should have had the brains to find this out. I blame them as much as the right wing scum who feed them the lies.

The xenophobia/racism in this country is up front and blatant in the majority. You won't notice it if like me your friends and social circle are educated, thinking liberal types. Try a building site/working mans pub/unskilled production line etc.

So you and all your mates are smart and people who work on building sites are stupid. Got it. That's a vote winner.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2745 on: August 28, 2019, 05:07:53 pm »
Nobody will win a Brexiteer over by arguing with them.

Which is part of the reason why a referendum should not have been called in the first place. Their patriotism , nationalism, racism meant they weren't interested in looking at the facts. Just make Britain Great again, bring back the Empire, 2 World Wars and 1 World cup.

It's pathetic. 
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,686
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2746 on: August 28, 2019, 05:09:47 pm »
So you and all your mates are smart and people who work on building sites are stupid. Got it. That's a vote winner.

Try a building site/working mans pub/unskilled production line.

Fucking hell, so working class plebs/lumpen proleteriat then.The British Deplorables, I suppose.

And what about all the smart people who have supported and engineered Brexit? And will make a fortune out of it.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2747 on: August 28, 2019, 05:10:03 pm »
So you and all your mates are smart and people who work on building sites are stupid. Got it. That's a vote winner.

Not interested in vote winning. More interested in people paying attention to what's going on and allowing more than crap TV, sport and alcohol rule their lives.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2748 on: August 28, 2019, 05:12:03 pm »

And what about all the smart people who have supported and engineered Brexit? And will make a fortune out of it.

What about them, they have an agenda. The public let themselves be manipulated because most failed to think beyond send the foreigners home.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,686
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2749 on: August 28, 2019, 05:16:54 pm »
What about them, they have an agenda. The public let themselves be manipulated because most failed to think beyond send the foreigners home.

You obviously have a very dismissive attitude towards working class people.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2750 on: August 28, 2019, 05:19:25 pm »
You obviously have a very dismissive attitude towards working class people.

Well they do keep voting to make their own lives worse.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,686
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2751 on: August 28, 2019, 05:21:49 pm »
Well they do keep voting to make their own lives worse.

There's no answer to that level of intellectual arrogance.

Offline Snail

  • Disgusted by you. Snail murdering S h e e p. Ms Soppy Twat Potty Mouth. The Annabel Chong of RAWK's X-Factor. Likes giving Sir Cliff of Richard one.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,994
  • How are we
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2752 on: August 28, 2019, 05:24:41 pm »
Well they do keep voting to make their own lives worse.

Dear God.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,466
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2753 on: August 28, 2019, 05:25:29 pm »
Remember 10 years ago when the UK seemed halfway sane and the worst thing we had to worry about was a global recession? :(
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2754 on: August 28, 2019, 05:28:10 pm »
Well they do keep voting to make their own lives worse.

There's no answer to that level of intellectual arrogance.

Dear God.

True or not?

I'm happy to read any theories or even better proof that lower earners do not consistently make political decisions that lead to worse living conditions.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 05:30:04 pm by Sudden Death Draft Loser »
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline lobsterboy

  • Sworn enemy of crayfishgirl. Likes to draw spunking cocks n balls at sunday school
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,987
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2755 on: August 28, 2019, 05:30:52 pm »
What about them, they have an agenda. The public let themselves be manipulated because most failed to think beyond send the foreigners home.

Its rather more than that. They've been squeezed by austerity which was constantly blamed on Socialists, Labour, immigrants, benefits and the rest rather than the banks that caused it or the ideology that pushed it through. The media, which is helmed by the same "smart" people has ensured these ideas have propagated. They haven't let themselves be manipulated they have just been manipulated full stop.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2756 on: August 28, 2019, 05:32:31 pm »
Its rather more than that. They've been squeezed by austerity which was constantly blamed on Socialists, Labour, immigrants, benefits and the rest rather than the banks that caused it or the ideology that pushed it through. The media, which is helmed by the same "smart" people has ensured these ideas have propagated. They haven't let themselves be manipulated they have just been manipulated full stop.

Now a more considered and reasonable answer than those above.
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2757 on: August 28, 2019, 05:34:51 pm »
Brexit vote was only 'working class' if you go by home owning pensioners claiming they're working class after 40 years running their family's building company. Poorest Brits tended to vote for 'remain'. (NB: these are generalisations, YMMV when applying to specific real life examples.)

Real interesting stuff is in the authoritarian/liberal axis. Brexit voters tend towards the authoritarian. One of the interesting things about voters who lean that way isn't that they vote against their own interests on some things but that they tend to think that stuff is ok so long as it's happening to other people who they think don't deserve any better. Think Question Time Tory tears over tax credits.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 05:41:27 pm by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,859
  • Trada
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2758 on: August 28, 2019, 05:35:28 pm »
Ruth Davidson is stepping down

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Online Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Kingdom Untied - Pfeffel the Liar is STILL PM of these Sceptered Isles
« Reply #2759 on: August 28, 2019, 05:39:34 pm »
Apologies, I had already written out my last reply before seeing this mate.

Your point in bold is a really good one and I agree. I just think it needs to change if the left are ever going to get anywhere. I was too young to directly comment on this but using Britpop as an example, it was a time where the left managed to champion the country and it was a major part of winning that election. They were the patriotic choice. Like I said, I was too young and I may be completely wrong on that but it doesn't seem coincidental to me. If we accept that Britain is full of "little Englanders", which let's face it, it is, then we have to find a way to win them over with our political arguments. They're not going to change!
That's a good point and yes, it's through art and popular culture that we've traditionally bound ourselves together in a 'patriotic' sense, presenting and treasuring notions of Britishness via archetypes and literary representations. But again these tend to take on an understated and self-effacing quality, which seems to work better for us than outright bombast and triumphalism. This even goes right back to days of Empire, where we were more likely to be celebrating great disasters like the Charge of the Light Brigade in poetry rather than great success. And while Little Englanders have always been with us it's telling that the very phrase is pejorative, and not a term of pride or identification. Very few Little Englanders will admit to being so, for example.

What Frottage, Cummings and the new alt-right are tapping into is a smaller wellspring of triumphalist and self-aggrandising populism that has always been there, but hidden away, treated rather like a mad relative in the attic. Only the mad relative has escaped, and the rest of us, used to a more genteel, 'don't scare the horses' approach aren't quite sure how to cope with it or counter it.

Whether a new kind of tolerant positive celebratory patriotism can develop to win the hearts of the Little Englanders is a fascinating question, and one to keep an eye on, certainly.

Quote
Your final point is also a good one and I understand that. It's infuriating seeing the some arguments on Twitter, the same myths being debunked that had been debunked three and a half years ago. But again, I don't think anyone can change that. It's human nature. People don't like being told that they were lied to, or that they were suckered in by propaganda. It's bad for pride and makes them feel stupid. And these beliefs that they've picked up from the last few years are essentially underlined by a lifetime of other believes drummed into them from newspapers, their parents and their social groups. Nobody will win a Brexiteer over by arguing with them. It's too late. The only hope is to educate people while they're young.
Yes as I keep saying you can't reason people out of something they haven't reasoned themselves into. Very few Brexiters had a well-reasoned basis for their position - and the few that had were the cynical manipulators, those out to make fortunes from the event. Evil, but perfectly rational when looked at dispassionately.

So if reason did not bring them to their position, reason will probably not shift them away. I remember Aron Banks (I think) saying something like 'Remain lost because they tried to use reason and argument; Leave won because they went straight for the emotion'

We need to engage Leavers via emotion, but I'm not quite sure how
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D