Topic: Racism in Football

[drmick]

I have noticed in US procedural crime dramas over the past few years that when a victim/witness is asked to describe an as of yet unseen suspect there is never any mention of the suspect's race.

[Clayton Bigsby]

I have noticed in US procedural crime dramas over the past few years that when a victim/witness is asked to describe an as of yet unseen suspect there is never any mention of the suspect's race.

I hope this isn't art imitating life

[T.Mills]

No he really wouldn't. Being able to read the situation and explain that could look bad, be taken out of context or give a poor or insensitive perception.

But when does it end? Can that kid never wear anything associated with monkeys? In that case the narrow minded fools who thought up the narrative have won.

[Ghost Town]

But why shouldn't it. This is why racism will never truly be eradicated, having black skin is not a negative. When we get to the point where skin colour is judged the same as hair/eye colour we will be in a better place.

I understand your intentions, but trust me, when not in the heat of the moment 9/10 black men would not be offended by being called a ‘black guy’.

Yeh, well said.  I agree with you on this.

Anyway im waffling, my point is, we will never move away from racism if we continue to downplay skin colour and pretend it doesn't exist.

And this.There are so many ways that non-white people are mistreated and discriminated against, which continue unchalleneged and unacknowledged because people are too busy worrying about calling a black person black.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

But when does it end? Can that kid never wear anything associated with monkeys? In that case the narrow minded fools who thought up the narrative have won.

The kid can wear whatever the fuck he wants, if he choose to, his parents can make him wear whatever they want. But a group of other people in a photoshoot, who happen to be white, have to consider the possibility of how bad such a situation can look even if they aren't even remotely racist.

It's not like the kid put the shirt on himself and said take a picture of me. This was arranged.

At the very least, it was insensitive if nothing else.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I understand your intentions, but trust me, when not in the heat of the moment 9/10 black men would not be offended by being called a ‘black guy’.

Depends on the context depends on the situation, depends on the tone, depends on the body language,etc...

[Sheer Magnetism]

No he really wouldn't. Being able to read the situation and explain that could look bad, be taken out of context or give a poor or insensitive perception.

In 2017, maybe. In 2020 it would be publicised heavily, and the thinkpieces would be about how problematic it is that black models have to work with white photographers telling them what to wear in the first place.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

In 2017, maybe. In 2020 it would be publicised heavily, and the thinkpieces would be about how problematic it is that black models have to work with white photographers telling them what to wear in the first place.

I disagree.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

In the heat of battle, I would describe a solitary white coach, surrounded by black (if I can say such an outrageous thing) colleagues as the white bloke. Naming him could even be misconstrued as vengeful. I'd rather pretend that I don't know his identity.

I'm not sure about that analogy. It's a bit like the argument that a black person calling a white person a 'honkey' (is there an similar term in the UK?) is equivalent to a white person calling a black person the n-word. In isolation both are ethnic slurs. But in the historical context of slavery/more general white on black oppression/violence it is clear why one is more offensive than the other.

Interestingly you could make an argument that we (I include myself in that looking at one of my posts above) can sometimes fall into the trap of painting some of the attitudes of people in Eastern Europe as somehow 'backwards' without acknowledging the fact that a country like Romania didn't trade slaves, didn't have African colonies and didn't have large sections of their society ostracised from public life purely because of the colour of their skin. With that in mind it makes more sense understanding how they might have a different perspective on race. For me they don't bear the same kind of "white guilt/privilege" that white people in Western Europe/the Americas/Australia have to come to terms with.

I think I would stand by my point that a Romanian official involved in a European match needs to be aware of wider European attitudes towards race but in hindsight I'd say I was a little bit strident in the way I put that point.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

But your analysing a 3 word sentence to the n’th degree, which can be easily spun to be a negative.

I always go back to the H&M ‘coolest monkey in the jungle’ controversy. When you dissect the situation you automatically come to the conclusion that the guy who arranged the shoot is racist, insensitive and probably got fired. But when you block out all the noise it could have easily come down to the young black child approaching the photographer with the ‘coolest monkey in the jungle’ hoodie and asking to wear it. If the photographer then turns round and says ‘sorry son you can’t wear that because some people associate monkeys with black people’ he’d be in even more shit.

Anyway im waffling, my point is, we will never move away from racism if we continue to downplay skin colour and pretend it doesn't exist.

I think it comes down to context. In this situation there were so many other options to describe Webo, options the 4th official should know or at the very least infer in his position as a 4th official. To single Wrbo out as the black guy in that situation has caused offence, and I can see why it would cause offence. It's unprofessional with a racial context.

It's different than describing a complete stranger where there is no other characteristics you can identify, or an informal situation where by you are describing a friend, so you clearly see more than just the colour of their skin (as you are their mate)

[Six Beardy]

'Send the black one off' is pretty fckin objectionable imo. In a negative situation when you isolate, identify and a reduce a person from being an individual to a visual characteristic that's historically been a point of discrimination, enslavement and genocide how can it be anything else other than offensive ? 

[Dr. Beaker]

I'm not sure about that analogy. It's a bit like the argument that a black person calling a white person a 'honkey' (is there an similar term in the UK?) is equivalent to a white person calling a black person the n-word. In isolation both are ethnic slurs. But in the historical context of slavery/more general white on black oppression/violence it is clear why one is more offensive than the other.

Interestingly you could make an argument that we (I include myself in that looking at one of my posts above) can sometimes fall into the trap of painting some of the attitudes of people in Eastern Europe as somehow 'backwards' without acknowledging the fact that a country like Romania didn't trade slaves, didn't have African colonies and didn't have large sections of their society ostracised from public life purely because of the colour of their skin. With that in mind it makes more sense understanding how they might have a different perspective on race. For me they don't bear the same kind of "white guilt/privilege" that white people in Western Europe/the Americas/Australia have to come to terms with.

I think I would stand by my point that a Romanian official involved in a European match needs to be aware of wider European attitudes towards race but in hindsight I'd say I was a little bit strident in the way I put that point.

So how would you be describing the above mentioned white bloke. But I'm shortly off to bed!

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I hope this isn't art imitating life

I think if you look at the way that the US criminal justice system deals with black people and black men in particular you can pretty safely say that art is not imitating life in that fashion.

[LanceLink!!!!!]

This situation reminds me of this game....



Children are encouraged to differentiate peoples faces by skin tone, should it be banned?

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

'Send the black one off' is pretty fckin objectionable imo. In a negative situation when you isolate, identify and a reduce a person from being an individual to a visual characteristic that's historically been a point of discrimination, enslavement and genocide how can it be anything else other than offensive ?

He reacted because the word "negro" has been used, so he automatically thought the ref used the racist word that starts with N, because they are similar. He didn't reacted because he said "the black one", he reacted because he heard the word "negro".

We all agree that racism is ignorance. But ignorance is also not willing to understand that some nations have been using this word way before slavery, and literally means "black".

[Reeves]

I read this morning:

“If people can’t say “black” now, is it just Lives Matter”

Thought that was evocative

[Reeves]

An interesting task would be to try to define the criminal offence of racism. Maybe something like:

1. Did it cause someone offence
2. Was it objectively reasonable that person was offended
3. If so was it intentional - more severe punishment
4. Or reckless - less severe punishment

That’s just a first stab. I also recall that racism can be defined as unjustifiable negative behaviour towards a group or individual of a given race - maybe that or an adaptation of the same would need building in. A lot of this would go away if the world was ad idem on a definition

[Hendollama]

From all the reports so far I don't think walking off the pitch was warranted

They may as well give PSG the 3-0 win. Istanbul cant qualify for Europa and PSG are already through. Seems a bit pointless to replay it

2.5M ARE ON THE LINE!

[jepovic]

An interesting task would be to try to define the criminal offence of racism. Maybe something like:

1. Did it cause someone offence
2. Was it objectively reasonable that person was offended
3. If so was it intentional - more severe punishment
4. Or reckless - less severe punishment

That’s just a first stab. I also recall that racism can be defined as unjustifiable negative behaviour towards a group or individual of a given race - maybe that or an adaptation of the same would need building in. A lot of this would go away if the world was ad idem on a definition

This is another level though, since the ref was using a word that is far less offensive in his language, than in English. There are probably 10-15 different mother tongues on the field in a regular CL game - should the refs keep track of offensive words in other languages as well?
Or do we deem english (or rather american) slurs as more important than those of other languages?
Is it justifiable to get offended by a word in a language that you don't understand?

[liverbloke]

if we could just friggin ask the black community what is right and wrong then there'd be no tippy- around words sayings or phrases

but who is/are the black community and who is/are the spokesperson/spokespeople for that community - and saying black community also ghettoises people too does it not?

herein lies the problem - we need someone as a figurehead or am agreed body of people who can tell us because we're either too friggin stupid to know or we simply don't know any longer

writing things like we can't even say Black Lives Matter it has to be written as Lives Matter is in itself belittling the problem and being purposely patronising to the subject at hand - it does not help

unfortunately we need guidance - and not from a panel of privileged white guys either

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

if we could just friggin ask the black community what is right and wrong then there'd be no tippy- around words sayings or phrases

but who is/are the black community and who is/are the spokesperson/spokespeople for that community - and saying black community also ghettoises people too does it not?

herein lies the problem - we need someone as a figurehead or am agreed body of people who can tell us because we're either too friggin stupid to know or we simply don't know any longer

writing things like we can't even say Black Lives Matter it has to be written as Lives Matter is in itself belittling the problem and being purposely patronising to the subject at hand - it does not help

unfortunately we need guidance - and not from a panel of privileged white guys either

What we need is common sense, and not more ignorance. Ignorance multiples. Trying to beat ignorance with ignorance will only generate more racism.

This reminds me of that teacher who got fired for using a chinese word that sounds similar to N word.

https://youtu.be/cijQ-gddGCE

[BarryCrocker]

I read this morning:

“If people can’t say “black” now, is it just Lives Matter”

Thought that was evocative

100%

[drmick]

Genuine question here- if the relevant member of the coaching staff last night had have been a woman- what words would have been considered sexist? Could any reference have been made to her gender in that context?

[OperationIvy]

I don't think anyone on here gives me the impression that they are racist though I get the impression some people on here think that some others (maybe me) are. Anyway, serious question, if the bloke was Chinese could the official have said, "The Chinese bloke", without him being racist? Or is that different? Would anyone on here have tried to describe the Chinese bloke by any other means? I actually could make the case that some white people seem to be assuming that any right-minded non-white person would see themselves as naturally inferior and would therefore not want their race brought into it. Anyway (I don't even know whether I'm explaining myself very well) but if Webo was standing there, playing the trombone, and with a parrot on his shoulder, and still found himself described as, "The black bloke", he would have more of a case, but it's not the worst case of racial hatred I've come across - it's a sort of media savvy millionaire's 'racial hatred'. Anyway, like I said before if they all shared the same first language it would be fathomable, but it ain't.

This an excellent point.

There was that TV show on channel 4 where they did this experiement on a school. I remember for the adverts, they showed this one kid saying "I love being referred to as black". That was a really nice and positive statement.  People should not be a ashamed of their skin colour.

I worry this whole episode is taking us down the wrong path in terms of progress made over the years.

[DangerScouse]

He reacted because the word "negro" has been used, so he automatically thought the ref used the racist word that starts with N, because they are similar. He didn't reacted because he said "the black one", he reacted because he heard the word "negro".

We all agree that racism is ignorance. But ignorance is also not willing to understand that some nations have been using this word way before slavery, and literally means "black".

Sorry, but i can't agree with this. The word has seriously negative connotations to put it mildly and should be binned off from every vernacular and from common usage, irrespective of when it originated. 

You'd hope it was just ignorance on the officials behalf and there was no malevolence intended. I was reading a Romanian reporter saying that the 4th official tried to take his own life a number of years ago and it was big news in the country at the time. I hope any punishment and criticism is measured if there was no intent, given his past frailties.

A great precedent set by both teams last night, fair play to them!

[Clayton Bigsby]

Genuine question here- if the relevant member of the coaching staff last night had have been a woman- what words would have been considered sexist? Could any reference have been made to her gender in that context?

The word for women would have to sound derogatory. Say for example if the word for women in Romanian was 'slag', if 4th official repeats that it would be considered sexist

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Sorry, but i can't agree with this. The word has seriously negative connotations to put it mildly and should be binned off from every vernacular and from common usage, irrespective of when it originated. 

You'd hope it was just ignorance on the officials behalf and there was no malevolence intended. I was reading a Romanian reporter saying that the 4th official tried to take his own life a number of years ago and it was big news in the country at the time. I hope any punishment and criticism is measured if there was no intent, given his past frailties.

A great precedent set by both teams last night, fair play to them!

This is the type of ignorance that I'm talking about. Why countries like Romania that got nothing to do with black slavery should bin a word for a colour that they've been using it for hundreds or thousands years?

Should Nigeria change its name as well? The river Niger in Africa? Etc etc.

[eddymunster]

The word for women would have to sound derogatory. Say for example if the word for women in Romanian was 'slag', if 4th official repeats that it would be considered sexist

Surely context can imply that any word used to identify by race or gender is derogatory.

"send the woman off" when she's the only woman in a crowd of men is probably identifying someone in the simplest manner.

"Send the woman off" whilst pointing at a woman stood with no one near her is sexist as including gender is unnecessary and implies that her gender is included in the sentence for a reason other than identification.

[jepovic]

Sorry, but i can't agree with this. The word has seriously negative connotations to put it mildly and should be binned off from every vernacular and from common usage, irrespective of when it originated. 

You'd hope it was just ignorance on the officials behalf and there was no malevolence intended. I was reading a Romanian reporter saying that the 4th official tried to take his own life a number of years ago and it was big news in the country at the time. I hope any punishment and criticism is measured if there was no intent, given his past frailties.

A great precedent set by both teams last night, fair play to them!

This attitude could only come from someone with English as a mother tongue, and it's very anglocentric. Only English speakers expect people outside of their home country to command their languague. My mother tongue is smaller, like Romanian, and then you grow up learning about how the same word can have different meanings. Even if the meaning is similar, it can be significantly different (like "pants" in English).

The irony here is that if the ref would have used a proper Romaniand racial slur, noone would have noticed.

[DangerScouse]

This attitude could only come from someone with English as a mother tongue, and it's very anglocentric. Only English speakers expect people outside of their home country to command their languague. My mother tongue is smaller, like Romanian, and then you grow up learning about how the same word can have different meanings. Even if the meaning is similar, it can be significantly different (like "pants" in English).

The irony here is that if the ref would have used a proper Romaniand racial slur, noone would have noticed.

I understand the point you are making but i think you are missing the point. None of the payers last night were English or speak the language as their mother tongue but were unanimously abhorred by the usage of the word. How do you explain that?

[Snail]

I understand the point you are making but i think you are missing the point. None of the payers last night were English or speak the language as their mother tongue but were unanimously abhorred by the usage of the word. How do you explain that?

They're all overreacting because it's PC gone mad and these days you get thrown in jail simply for being English, or something.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Surely context can imply that any word used to identify by race or gender is derogatory.

"send the woman off" when she's the only woman in a crowd of men is probably identifying someone in the simplest manner.

"Send the woman off" whilst pointing at a woman stood with no one near her is sexist as including gender is unnecessary and implies that her gender is included in the sentence for a reason other than identification.

It might be the simplest manner but it would still be unprofessional in that environment. She has a name, or if that is not known, a job title. Even saying something like "the black coach" or "the female coach" would make it more appropriate. I think?

[markthescouser]

I understand the point you are making but i think you are missing the point. None of the payers last night were English or speak the language as their mother tongue but were unanimously abhorred by the usage of the word. How do you explain that?

Listening to Ba, I don’t think it’s even the Romanian word for black that the teams were angry about, it was that skin colour was used to describe someone.

[jillcwhomever]

It might be the simplest manner but it would still be unprofessional in that environment. She has a name, or if that is not known, a job title. Even saying something like "the black coach" or "the female coach" would make it more appropriate. I think?

Why is it even necessary to refer to the "Black coach" at all? We don't say the "white coach" do we? It is about understanding that they all people and they all deserve to be treated as such. Just say the coach over there, no one  needs to mention their colour at all.

[DangerScouse]

This is the type of ignorance that I'm talking about. Why countries like Romania that got nothing to do with black slavery should bin a word for a colour that they've been using it for hundreds or thousands years?

Should Nigeria change its name as well? The river Niger in Africa? Etc etc.

The word has unfortunately evolved to have direct associations with oppression and marginalising of black people.

The word 'Nigeria' isn't used in the context of identifying someone in terms of their colour and i don't think i need to comment further on the word 'Niger' or the disgusting variation of that word which is thankfully used less frequently these days but still needs to be eradicated entirely.

[DangerScouse]

Listening to Ba, I don’t think it’s even the Romanian word for black that the teams were angry about, it was that skin colour was used to describe someone.

You could well be right but the word itself is offensive to many.

[liverbloke]

regarding the 'chinese' argument

the next time you walk into your locally run chinese chippy or chinese or indian take away then please go up to the counter and say 'hi chinese man' or 'hi indian man' and see how stupid you sound and how long they take to throw you out and then see if it sounds racist or not or offensive or not

i play 6 a-side with a 'chinese' guy (i'll refer to him as chinese for the purposes of this argument) and one day we had someone new who was filling in for a missing player, anyway this guy kept on saying mark that chinese guy and watch for the chinese guy making the runs

i went up to my mate and said 'mate, do you find that offensive - do you mind being called 'the chinese guy'' and he replied 'why doesn't he just call me Alan (his name)'

nuff said really

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Why is it even necessary to refer to the "Black coach" at all? We don't say the "white coach" do we? It is about understanding that they all people and they all deserve to be treated as such. Just say the coach over there, no one  needs to mention their colour at all.

Oh yeah I fully agree, I was saying the same last night on here. I'm just saying that if you do feel the need to bring skin colour into it, it should at least be together with other descriptive factors.

[Dr. Beaker]

The irony here is that if the ref would have used a proper Romaniand racial slur, noone would have noticed.

This is an hilariously excellent point, and everyone should just have a little think about it.

[jepovic]

I understand the point you are making but i think you are missing the point. None of the payers last night were English or speak the language as their mother tongue but were unanimously abhorred by the usage of the word. How do you explain that?

Because they don't understand Romanian of course, and they assumed the worst. I can understand that, but I can also feel for the ref.

I just find it ironic how you preach that everyone is equal, yet elevate English to a special level that everyone is supposed to adapt to. Why? England and the US had no part in this game at all, yet you fully expect everyone to follow you. Suppose an English ref would have used a word that is racist in Turkish - do you think they should have stopped the game?