Author Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...  (Read 364203 times)

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2480 on: February 23, 2019, 09:53:52 pm »
Pidcock is more likely than Burgon or Lewis.
Trada would suffer a priapism if that happened.

Great. So Article 50 gets extended, we get a new general election, a Tory landslide, and a hard Brexit. TIG playing a blinder.

Not necessarily.

Surely TIG would be wiped out in any election and replaced by Corbyn loyalists, and from what we've been told by those who have repeatedly told us centrists to "fuck off and vote Tory", Corbyn could even possibly achieve a landslide or at least a majority.

But I fear and expect that even if so, we will all still then get the hard Brexit as the unrealistic expectations of Corbyn's apparently superlative skills at negotiation flounder and it then becomes obvious that Corbyn/Milne/Macdonell/McCluskey are the ones who have played the blinder in leading naive trusting people along in order to get what they and their little clique have always wanted, a detachment and complete unentanglement from the EU.

But, there is a way out of this in that Corbyn could announce unequivocal backing by Labour for a new referendum, and with no condition of GE first, and most importantly with remain as an option.

It's completely in his hands, and now.

But if he still prevaricates, he, his circle of worshippers and lackies, and his most ardent supporters and apologists, are rightly going to be damned for ever by posterity by anyone with the slightest intelligence or understanding of the highly probable outcome of this game that's being played.

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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2481 on: February 23, 2019, 09:54:00 pm »


And Corbyn is her mirror image on the left.

What a time to be alive. Possibly the two shittest leaders ever in the history of British politics as leaders of the two main parties...

Was thinking that myself.

Has the Liberal party been wiped out now? Seems they got all the blame for all the decisions made by the coalition.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2482 on: February 23, 2019, 09:54:48 pm »
And people say he's the left's Trump. Bollocks.

If it had been a growler shot, fair enough.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2483 on: February 23, 2019, 09:56:36 pm »
i reckon it’ll be long Bailey (who is female and doesn’t have the baggage of McDonnell) will get it and the likes of Milne and McDonnell can work in the background knowing they can do what they like as she’s not exactly the sharpest as McDonnell would fail bigtime as leader as the public would detest a man like him where his act is so obviously transparent now
If she became leader after two years and no major brief (which the other two have had) then it would show what a terrible place they’re in

True. McDonnell will be biding his time and waiting for the revolution not the counter-revolution.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2484 on: February 23, 2019, 10:01:44 pm »
i reckon it’ll be long Bailey (who is female and doesn’t have the baggage of McDonnell) will get it and the likes of Milne and McDonnell can work in the background knowing they can do what they like as she’s not exactly the sharpest as McDonnell would fail bigtime as leader as the public would detest a man like him where his act is so obviously transparent now
If she became leader after two years and no major brief (which the other two have had) then it would show what a terrible place they’re in
You all seem to be a bit behind the curve here. The nation is fully in 'Boaty MacBoatface mode' at the moment. Ergo there is only one nailed on future PM. Come on down Diane Abbott.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2485 on: February 23, 2019, 10:14:45 pm »


But I fear and expect that even if so, we will all still then get the hard Brexit as the unrealistic expectations of Corbyn's apparently superlative skills at negotiation flounder and it then becomes obvious that Corbyn/Milne/Macdonell/McCluskey are the ones who have played the blinder in leading naive trusting people along in order to get what they and their little clique have always wanted, a detachment and complete unentanglement from the EU.

But, there is a way out of this in that Corbyn could announce unequivocal backing by Labour for a new referendum, and with no condition of GE first, and most importantly with remain as an option.

It's completely in his hands, and now.

But if he still prevaricates, he, his circle of worshippers and lackies, and his most ardent supporters and apologists, are rightly going to be damned for ever by posterity by anyone with the slightest intelligence or understanding of the highly probable outcome of this game that's being played.

I agree.  What they have done is far worse than anything the Leave campaign ever did during the referendum.  That lot just hoodwinked a lot of people who had no real grasp of what was being asked of them, or had a very simplistic view of a complex situation.  The way the Labour leadership have systematically betrayed the trust of those in most desperate need, in a manner so outright pre-meditated it borders on predatory, it verges on the sinister.

History will well ask how otherwise ordinary and intelligent people were so easily besotted by such obvious frauds, but the truth is it happens all the time.  The more information available, the more complex understanding becomes, the easier it is to let somebody else who claims they can do it all for you.
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2486 on: February 23, 2019, 10:30:38 pm »
Corbyn and Thornberry competing for the biggest shit in politics prize today. Quite some achievements considering the opposition.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2487 on: February 23, 2019, 10:31:51 pm »
....it verges on the sinister.

That comes naturally with the territory of the far left as also the far right.

Deception of real intent by employing distraction techniques and premeditated blame apportionment, in order to achieve your hidden objective, these are well rehearsed and described techniques.

It's all detached and pseudo intellectual nonsense being play acted  by those who can afford to play revolutionary leaders and given a veneer of credibility for the incredulous and dim by reference to severe and often turgid tomes from over a hundred years ago written by the usual suspects.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline John C

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2488 on: February 23, 2019, 10:37:47 pm »
Some bad dickheads in wavertree

But like BBC News this week, they literally went to the suburb of Wavertree which although is full of sound people its doesn't represent the entire constituency at all :)

Luciana will never get the same numbers, but with a good bit of footwork the decent people of Liverpool Wavertree constituency will marginally support her I reckon.

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2489 on: February 23, 2019, 10:38:05 pm »
What is antisemitism in Labour?

I'm not completely stupid but I am somewhat struggling in this moment (given the Labour party divisions) to pin down what it is, and what is done, to be antisemitic.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2490 on: February 23, 2019, 10:41:46 pm »
History will well ask how otherwise ordinary and intelligent people were so easily besotted by such obvious frauds
History has always asked that. And still we keep doing it. There are a few exceptions that prove the rule, but going all the way back to that bloke coming down the mountain with his tablets, we just love a bloke with all the answers. For some reason we're all dying to believe them.

Oh bollocks! I'm not just a miserable bastard - now I'm anti-Semitic an' all.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2491 on: February 23, 2019, 10:43:33 pm »
Great. So Article 50 gets extended, we get a new general election, a Tory landslide, and a hard Brexit. TIG playing a blinder.
I never see the point of arguments like this. They always assume that the shedding party - or parties - are blameless.

In reality if we suffer a Hard Brexit the culprits will be the Tory-Labour grouping.
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2492 on: February 23, 2019, 10:47:32 pm »
History has always asked that. And still we keep doing it. There are a few exceptions that prove the rule, but going all the way back to that bloke coming down the mountain with his tablets, we just love a bloke with all the answers. For some reason we're all dying to believe them.

Oh bollocks! I'm not just a miserable bastard - now I'm anti-Semitic an' all.

No it hasn't. History, as you call it, has always been subjective. There is, however, a common answer to these reoccurring nightmares: education.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2493 on: February 23, 2019, 10:48:54 pm »
What is antisemitism in Labour?

I'm not completely stupid but I am somewhat struggling in this moment (given the Labour party divisions) to pin down what it is, and what is done, to be antisemitic.


it's pretty straightforward. On the far left there are plenty who go for the full range of anti-semitic conspiracies - the Jews control a global conspiracy of bankers and media interests. all taken straight form yteh Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Then there are the anti-Zionists who protest that they are just criticising Israel (the only Jewish state in the World) rather than Jews in general. Then there are the Corbyn cultists who believe that accusations of anti-semitism are just a plot against Jeremy (the definition of institutional racism) by Jews/Blairites/Women...

Bottom line - Corbyn's Labour runs the full range from open Holocaust denial to institutional racism on Twitter and Facebook by the JC4PM crowd.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2494 on: February 23, 2019, 10:52:23 pm »
History has always asked that. And still we keep doing it. There are a few exceptions that prove the rule, but going all the way back to that bloke coming down the mountain with his tablets, we just love a bloke with all the answers. For some reason we're all dying to believe them.

You. It's why the sensible arguments are so hard to sell over simplistic shite from an idiot with total conviction.

Quote
Oh bollocks! I'm not just a miserable bastard - now I'm anti-Semitic an' all.
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Offline John C

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2495 on: February 23, 2019, 10:55:38 pm »
Is it just me, or does anyone else even hate the way he holds his head on an angle when he speaks?

Offline BoRed

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2496 on: February 23, 2019, 10:57:50 pm »
I never see the point of arguments like this. They always assume that the shedding party - or parties - are blameless.

In which case you've entirely misunderstood what I said. Brexit is obviously first and foremost on the Tories, and certainly to an extent on Labour, too.

I also perfectly understand why these MPs left Labour, I have from day one only questioned their timing, and purely in the context of Brexit. I just don't see how what they've done helps stop Brexit.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2497 on: February 23, 2019, 11:08:47 pm »
Is it just me, or does anyone else even hate the way he holds his head on an angle when he speaks?

If the antisemitism weren’t there I would be fighting him with every bone in my body as he’s just wrong on almost every issue that really matters when it comes to foreign affairs and how we can actually affect change in our country.

But it is, and it makes me utterly despise him.  I hate his fucking geek fisherman hat, I hate his fucking anger when he gets asked a question he doesn’t like, the way he spits when he gets angry. He’s absoutley the passionnalty deluded teacher who can not control a class and gets angry when they don’t do as they are asked.

And yes, the way he holds his head is hugely troubling.  Because what it says is ‘this question is beneath me’, it’s the contempt for the interviewer it conveys.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2498 on: February 23, 2019, 11:11:27 pm »
Jess Phillips gets it.

Quote
I’m a tribal sort. Always have been. I was raised singing songs about putting Tories on a bonfires and being told that even saying “Maggie Thatcher” was swearing. My parents would have been deeply disappointed if I had married a Tory.

It wasn’t all cynicism and vitriol. I was also raised with stories of solidarity. Soulful yarns about striking workers fighting for better pay, and tales of the unexpected where the little man won out thanks to the Labour party and the union. If you cut me my blood is made up of one part Birmingham, one part Labour party.

I’m a tribeswoman without doubt. And yet I find myself questioning the very nature of tribalism more and more. I have never liked the idea of the MP who sits on a massive majority, knowing they are secure. I don’t like the rot that can set in when one group of people is a shoo-in for a particular political party and without question this type of person will always vote one way.

I think the ordinary citizen is not served well by safe seats or a politics that takes their votes for granted.

The 2017 election saw most voters split down the middle, and again go back to the politics of the two main parties. People were voting as much for what they didn’t want as what they did. I should be dancing around because I have a bigger majority, a safer seat, an easier ride. But I’m not. I don’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth but I do want to earn the votes I get. Hey – perhaps all that conditioning in childhood about never benefiting from unearned income worked.

While all over the world division and vitriol is blasting across our airwaves, I still think, from my experiences as a local MP and an ordinary citizen, that this is not an accurate portrayal, and that people desperately want reasonable, pragmatic solutions to the problems in their lives. I think they are sick of the tribal squabble and want us talk to them and about them. So, yes, I am sad that my colleagues have left our party. I am even sadder that some were bullied out by antisemites that have not been kept in check. But I don’t think I am sad that this breakaway has happened.

I think politics needed a kick up the bum, with both main parties seeking to feed red meat to their bases above serving the country. Both have engaged appallingly in a squabble for the heart of the party and forgotten that the average person doesn’t give a toss.

I don’t buy the argument that the new breakaway group are handing the Tories a victory over the Labour party because they will split the vote. I think we in the Labour party should try to win every vote we receive by being better than the others. We will not do that if we don’t tackle the antisemitism in our ranks, or if we continue to obsessively fight with one other. Every one of us needs to back down. Me included.

If we – with all our history, our folk tales, our heart – can’t set out a vision that would win an election, then that is on us. We failed to keep those nine MPs with us and we should ask ourselves why, not just slag them off. How the party responds will determine our future, not a split in our ranks.

I don’t want the Labour party to split, but I don’t think it deserves to exist just because. For me to leave would be like having a full-body blood transfusion, but when you’re sick that’s what you do. I hope the party can get better. Lord knows, my constituents need it to.

There also contributions from Luciana Berger, talking of the values she's hoping to see within TIG, Roy Hattersley, who has a pop at the hard left, and Angela Rayner, who wants to talk about TIG stopping a Labour government.

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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2499 on: February 23, 2019, 11:19:19 pm »
Is it just me, or does anyone else even hate the way he holds his head on an angle when he speaks?


Perhaps not just yourself, allthough I'd personally hesitate to simply use posture and facial or expressive ticks as a reason for ever disliking someone. We often can't help ourselves and it's a bit along the train of thought that led to Baden Powell type assessments of inhabitants of the colonies.

But he does have a peculier gulp type swallowing thing as he speaks but I thought Gordon Brown was great and very misunderstood and he too had a pronounced facial and peculiar gulping type tick when speaking.

So I think we have to be always careful about assuming such physical characteristics, distracting mannerisms as I was taught when learning how to teach or do presentations, as indicating someones honesty or legitimacy of thought and intent.

I often imagine I'm blind or listening on the radio when watching some people on TV in order to ignore or to attempt to obviate such bias.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2500 on: February 23, 2019, 11:21:39 pm »
Is it just me, or does anyone else even hate the way he holds his head on an angle when he speaks?


I hate everything about the man,have since I first listened to him.

He is nothing but a snidey bastard & you can bet your left bollock that he and his brother are two peas from the same pod,both utter c*nts.
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2501 on: February 23, 2019, 11:27:32 pm »
it's pretty straightforward.

It is not, that is why I asked.

On the far left there are plenty who go for the full range of anti-semitic conspiracies - the Jews control a global conspiracy of bankers and media interests.

I have no time for this concept.

Then there are the anti-Zionists who protest that they are just criticising Israel (the only Jewish state in the World) rather than Jews in general.

And you feel this is wrong? To criticise that sate for its actions? 

 
Then there are the Corbyn cultists who believe that accusations of anti-semitism are just a plot against Jeremy (the definition of institutional racism) by Jews/Blairites/Women...

Well this is why I asked. What are the cold hard facts?

Bottom line - Corbyn's Labour runs the full range from open Holocaust denial to institutional racism on Twitter and Facebook by the JC4PM crowd.

Corbyn is incompetent, in so many ways, and he is not a true Labour leader. But this antisemitic stuff is pathetic. 
And in short, I was afraid

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2502 on: February 23, 2019, 11:38:01 pm »
But this antisemitic stuff is pathetic. 

p.96 Hope Not Hate

Spoiler
Quote
Over the last few years, the Labour party, and, since his election as leader, Jeremy Corbyn himself, have become embroiled in numerous allegations of antisemitism and failing to deal adequately with those members and supporters who are perpetuating it.

In 2012, while still a backbencher, Jeremy Corbyn offered his backing to an artist whose clearly antisemitic mural was to be removed. It depicted profiteers with exaggeratedly large noses gathered around a board game, held up by the subjugated masses. A video has recently surfaced, filmed not long after this, in which Corbyn responding to a question by saying that Zionists “clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either”, mobilising old antisemitic tropes of Jews as outsiders, lacking loyalty and not belonging in the UK.

This was just one of several instances involving Jeremy Corbyn.

While Corbyn has now spoken out about antisemitism on the left, many people have questioned his understanding of contemporary antisemitism, and how seriously he takes the issue. The problem of antisemitism within the Labour party goes well beyond Corbyn however, and the lack of action by the party has caused great worry amongst large sections of the Jewish community.

In 2018 seven elected Labour representatives were suspended or resigned after making antisemitic comments. These suspensions we held up as a potential signal that finally, after an extremely slow start, concrete action against antisemitism is being taken. However, the quiet readmission of members formerly suspended for investigation, without full transparency on the disciplinary process they underwent has led to concerns that the Party approach has been to try to make the problem of antisemitism go away, rather than to tackle the root causes. So much more is required to root out antisemites and to create a zero-tolerance approach of deeds as well as words.

There are cases which have resulted in no tangible repercussions. MP Chris Williamson recently signed a petition in support of Gilad Atzmon, an individual who is infamous for having promoted Holocaust deniers and spread antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Williamson’s belated but barely credible apology was taken at face value by the party and no action – not even an investigation – resulted.

Likewise, there was real reluctance from the party leadership to deal with Pete Willsman, a long-time colleague of Corbyn’s, after he accused Jewish “Trump fanatics” of making up allegations of
antisemitism in the party.

Although dropped by Momentum, he was nevertheless re-elected to the NEC in 2018 as an independent candidate.

Even pro-Corbyn Jewish leftwingers like Jon Lansman and Rhea Wolfson have been on the receiving end of antisemitic abuse.

Disgracefully, some of those who have faced the worst antisemitic abuse from within the Labour Party are Jewish Labour members of parliament. In a House of Commons speech in April, MP for
Stoke-on-Trent North (and former Deputy Director of HOPE not hate) Ruth Smeeth explained in no uncertain terms the deluge of antisemitism she had experienced from the left such as: “Hang
yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth. You are a cancer of humanity”. The chair of the Jewish Labour Movement’s parliamentary group, Luciana Berger, has faced abhorrent abuse online
simply for highlighting instances of antisemitism within the Labour movement.

Encouragingly, there have been signs from within the left, most notably from the Jeremy Corbyn supporting group Momentum, of an awareness that this is a serious problem requiring serious action. They have produced a series of videos opposing antisemitism, and have run social media campaigns to expose left-leaning antisemites, warning supporters to steer clear of groups masquerading as Corbyn supporters which also post racist content.

But much more needs to be done to reassure people that the Labour party is taking the issue of antisemitism seriously.

Some have sought to play down the threat posed by antisemitism in the Labour party by pointing to antisemitism emanating from the far-right or Islamophobia in the Conservative Party. However,
what worries so many within the Jewish community is the prospect of a mainstream political party, possibly a party of government, having a problem with antisemitism which is not only not taken
seriously by its leadership but emanates from it.

Within this concern is a feeling that Jewish people are not considered ‘victims’ of racism and prejudice in the same way that other minority groups are, and that the Jewish community is powerful enough to look after itself, which of course is an age-old trope.

The family history of so many members of the British Jewish community includes first-hand experience of persecution. Many people in the Jewish community therefore identify with a sense of the precariousness of their safety, where material security and educational attainment are not seen as guarantors of security and safety. The inability of the Labour Party leadership to understand and acknowledge this experience is particularly chilling when the Labour Party and the left in general hold values of equality and antiracism as core to their identity.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2503 on: February 23, 2019, 11:52:20 pm »
It is not, that is why I asked.

I have no time for this concept.

And you feel this is wrong? To criticise that sate for its actions? 


Well this is why I asked. What are the cold hard facts?

Corbyn is incompetent, in so many ways, and he is not a true Labour leader. But this antisemitic stuff is pathetic. 
Let me ask you this?

If 85% of black people said someone was racist, would you ever doubt them?
Of course you wouldn’t.

And I will tell you what the problem is.  Zionism is a state of empancipationfor the Jewish people.  After several attempts at genocide over the last 1500 years, several ethic cleansings and a good proportion of the Jewish population slaughtered, the question of a Jewish homeland was finally resolved.

And a Jewish homeland can be no more or less valid than a Christian or Muslim state, but in the case of the Jews they were symbolically returning to the land they were driven from to suffer centuries of bitter and twisted hatred.

Now most Jews couldn’t give much of a damn about Zionism, but the cruel and unusual percecution they have suffered does mean that will generally believe in the need and right for a Jewish state to exist. And that’s where his antizionism comes instuck, because it essentially says that everyone else can have a homeland but not the Jews. For me, that’s discriminatory form the start.

And here’s where the problems start. For Corbyn and his fucking idiots, the Jewish state is some extension of western imperialism, one born out of regret over the holocaust. And Corbyn himself has said that he hopes European support for Israel will diminish as people forget the Holocaust over time. 

And then, then there is the whole host of vile Jewish tropes that are promulgated by the left.  The greed. The Rothschilds.  The money lender.  The hooked nose. The cabal controlling the world. Rothschilds (other bankers are bailable but they always pic the Jewish ones). Soros (other billionaires are available but they always pic the Jewish ones). Corbyn fan twitter is simply awash with these tropes. Not a couple of times, thousands and thousands.

Then there’s Corbyn himself.  He’s made comments that do deny Israel the right to exist. Now remember this isn’t saying that their government is awful, it’s far more than that. But it’s the amount of times he’s stood with people on the same bill who are extreme antismeites.  People who want all Jews killed, people would deny the Holocaust. Once, twice, no. Dozens and dozens of times.  He’s even laid  a reef of the graves of terrorists who castrated (whilst alive) Jewish prisoners and then killed them.  Just because thye were Jewish.  These aren’t odd events, it’s several times a year, every year. And three years ago, Berger got antisemitic abuse form some guy at an event they were appearing at, Corbyn apologised and said he would phone him later.  That’s right, he was on calling terms with the filthy racist.

And now a Jewish MP quits over the abuse. And let’s not deny the antisemitic abuse eh? The police have been involved several times.  Are you suggesting that the victims of racism are making it up?

Are you suggesting that the chief rabbi is making it up? 

Are you suggesting that Jewish people are lying?  Because if you tell me that then youre a huge part of the problem.
I hope you aren’t.



 
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2504 on: February 24, 2019, 12:02:27 am »
p.96 Hope Not Hate

Spoiler
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I respect you Zeb, but did you read what you posted?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2505 on: February 24, 2019, 12:07:46 am »
I respect you Zeb, but did you read what you posted?

I did. I went for providing you with the overall assessment of Hope Not Hate, based on cold hard facts, which was relevant to the portion of Alan's post you were quoting to reply to.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2506 on: February 24, 2019, 12:12:25 am »
I respect you Zeb, but did you read what you posted?

Why don’t you spit out what you’re tiptoeing around

It’s a bit weird you’re choosing to deny the concerns about intolerance by a minority population, but even weirder you’re now also seemingly denying a neutral and professional assessment of that intolerance 

Do you have a theory than runs contrary to this?

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2507 on: February 24, 2019, 12:43:28 am »
Let me ask you this?

If 85% of black people said someone was racist, would you ever doubt them?
Of course you wouldn’t.

Its not about doubting them, not at all. But thanks for answering your own question. It is about truth. What is the truth? What is said, by whom and how? 



And I will tell you what the problem is.  Zionism is a state of empancipationfor the Jewish people.  After several attempts at genocide over the last 1500 years, several ethic cleansings and a good proportion of the Jewish population slaughtered, the question of a Jewish homeland was finally resolved.

And a Jewish homeland can be no more or less valid than a Christian or Muslim state, but in the case of the Jews they were symbolically returning to the land they were driven from to suffer centuries of bitter and twisted hatred.

What?

Now most Jews couldn’t give much of a damn about Zionism, but the cruel and unusual percecution they have suffered does mean that will generally believe in the need and right for a Jewish state to exist. And that’s where his antizionism comes instuck, because it essentially says that everyone else can have a homeland but not the Jews. For me, that’s discriminatory form the start.

Utter bulishit

And here’s where the problems start. For Corbyn and his fucking idiots, the Jewish state is some extension of western imperialism, one born out of regret over the holocaust. And Corbyn himself has said that he hopes European support for Israel will diminish as people forget the Holocaust over time.

I think you have a particularly favourable view there. 

And then, then there is the whole host of vile Jewish tropes that are promulgated by the left.  The greed. The Rothschilds.  The money lender.  The hooked nose. The cabal controlling the world. Rothschilds (other bankers are bailable but they always pic the Jewish ones). Soros (other billionaires are available but they always pic the Jewish ones). Corbyn fan twitter is simply awash with these tropes. Not a couple of times, thousands and thousands.

Sometimes, there is no accounting for stupid.


Then there’s Corbyn himself.  He’s made comments that do deny Israel the right to exist. Now remember this isn’t saying that their government is awful, it’s far more than that. But it’s the amount of times he’s stood with people on the same bill who are extreme antismeites.  People who want all Jews killed, people would deny the Holocaust. Once, twice, no. Dozens and dozens of times.  He’s even laid  a reef of the graves of terrorists who castrated (whilst alive) Jewish prisoners and then killed them.  Just because thye were Jewish.  These aren’t odd events, it’s several times a year, every year.

More proof please - so I may better judge

 
And three years ago, Berger got antisemitic abuse form some guy at an event they were appearing at, Corbyn apologised and said he would phone him later.  That’s right, he was on calling terms with the filthy racist.

And now a Jewish MP quits over the abuse. And let’s not deny the antisemitic abuse eh? The police have been involved several times.  Are you suggesting that the victims of racism are making it up?

Are you suggesting that the chief rabbi is making it up? 

Are you suggesting that Jewish people are lying?  Because if you tell me that then you're a huge part of the problem.
I hope you aren’t.

I'm saying that people will use anything, and I mean anything, as a political football. I don't blame them.

I don't condone them. But I can cast my opinion.

While someone can be inept that does not mean they are representative of others ineptitude. However, one can support a view without endorsing a manifesto.

I maintain that the calls of antisemitism are, in the main, bogus.



 
[/quote]
Let me ask you this?




 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 01:16:44 am by Antoine Lavoisier »
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2508 on: February 24, 2019, 01:05:21 am »
Why don’t you spit out what you’re tiptoeing around

It’s a bit weird you’re choosing to deny the concerns about intolerance by a minority population, but even weirder you’re now also seemingly denying a neutral and professional assessment of that intolerance 

Do you have a theory than runs contrary to this?

Well yes I do. And its called "religion poisons everything" not mine you'll understand but true never the less. This is my position and educated understanding. "weird" to you may be a wall or an impossible answer to that which you cannot surmount.
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2509 on: February 24, 2019, 01:18:16 am »
I did. I went for providing you with the overall assessment of Hope Not Hate, based on cold hard facts, which was relevant to the portion of Alan's post you were quoting to reply to.

But the reason i asked..
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2510 on: February 24, 2019, 01:35:13 am »
But the reason i asked..

Hmm? You mean your original stated reason of questioning the definition of antisemitism within the Labour party? Yes, hence Hope not hate.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2511 on: February 24, 2019, 01:39:34 am »
Hmm? You mean your original stated reason of questioning the definition of antisemitism within the Labour party? Yes, hence Hope not hate.

So is there antisemitism? and Where? I dont believe it has been answered.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2512 on: February 24, 2019, 02:27:50 am »
So is there antisemitism? and Where? I dont believe it has been answered.

I hope you're reading what you post because you've said yourself that there are instances of antisemitism. That way, when people provide you with individual cases which clearly are antisemitism, you can both accept them and retain your belief that these are isolated instances yet 'in the main' it's all bogus.

Have a good evening Antoine.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2513 on: February 24, 2019, 02:41:28 am »
Nothing antisemitic here?

“My fanbase has shown scant regard for appropriate parliamentary language, so I apologise in advance. ‘Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth, you’re a cancer of humanity’. ‘Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist, she has no shame and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler, who the Zionists betrayed’. ‘Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling first class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down’.”
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2514 on: February 24, 2019, 03:37:49 am »
Nothing antisemitic here?

“My fanbase has shown scant regard for appropriate parliamentary language, so I apologise in advance. ‘Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth, you’re a cancer of humanity’. ‘Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist, she has no shame and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler, who the Zionists betrayed’. ‘Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling first class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down’.”
Thats horrible shes had a really hard time, the PLP had a meeting just before she left the party, very emotional and full of tears, Lavery argued he's angry that some critics of the Labour party argue they are institutionally anti Semitic, Ruth Smeeth told the meeting that her and Louise Ellman had been told by a Labour member that they didn't have human blood, they complained but no action was taken against the Labour member.
Chris Bryant

It feels as if the major from Fawlty Towers has taken over the Tory campaign.
10:42 PM · May 25, 2024
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2515 on: February 24, 2019, 05:50:49 am »
Its not about doubting them, not at all. But thanks for answering your own question. It is about truth. What is the truth? What is said, by whom and how? 



What?

Utter bulishit

I think you have a particularly favourable view there. 

Sometimes, there is no accounting for stupid.

More proof please - so I may better judge

I'm saying that people will use anything, and I mean anything, as a political football. I don't blame them.

I don't condone them. But I can cast my opinion.

While someone can be inept that does not mean they are representative of others ineptitude. However, one can support a view without endorsing a manifesto.

I maintain that the calls of antisemitism are, in the main, bogus.

Bogus. Wow.

Just those Jews making trouble for Corbyn I suppose. All in the pay of Tel Aviv. Or would that be the Rothschilds? Same thing really isn’t it?...   

I think it might be sensible to leave it there mate. Would you say that kind of thing about misogyny, anti-gay abuse, racial prejudice against black people? “There’s no such thing as gay-bashing... black lives don’t really matter... women should know their place and get back in the kitchen...”

 No one is going to give you any more ‘proof’ as you’re clearly not interested. If you can dismiss the torrents of vile abuse on Twitter from people with #JC4PM after their Twitter handle then there’s no hope.
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Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2516 on: February 24, 2019, 09:10:27 am »
Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove, Tom Watson, Heidi Allen and Luciana Berger on today's Marr show at 10am.

Some interesting comments from David Schneider on twitter. He's right, but asking Corbyn to change is like asking water to stop being wet. Too defensive and set in his ways.

Quote
19th Feb:
John McDonnell promises “mammoth listening exercise” on antisemitism.

4 days later:
Jeremy Corbyn shows he still ain’t listening.

I know you feel under attack, Jeremy, but if we’re going to fix this you *have* to change your tone.

---

JC needs to show he’s willing to change. That he gets the problem. He does this in pre-written videos and articles, then seems tone-deaf on antisemitism in interviews.
No point banging on about Jews who support him on this, he needs to reach out, show he understands the issue.

---

The letter JC quotes doesn’t cut it for me. It minimises/barely admits the problem we have in Labour, and links it to an attempt to shut down debate on Palestine. Yes, some “weaponise" it for that, but the problem's there, real and it must be dealt with.

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1099586539640758272

I'm saying that people will use anything, and I mean anything, as a political football. I don't blame them.

Of course. The problem here, however, is that Labour have stood by while that football was produced and even now, after years of criticism, are no closer to deflating it.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2517 on: February 24, 2019, 09:16:58 am »
So is there antisemitism? and Where? I dont believe it has been answered.

What a strange set of posts. Because of the way you use language it is sometimes very difficult to understand what you’re saying. It’s very irritating.
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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2518 on: February 24, 2019, 10:24:08 am »


Corbyn is incompetent, in so many ways, and he is not a true Labour leader. But this antisemitic stuff is pathetic.

These are not mutually exclusive:

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/02/15/overview/

The Labour Party continues to be embroiled in its antisemitism scandal, which sadly is mostly of its own making. While it is undoubtedly true that its opponents have publicly exploited as anyone involved in politics would exploit problems in their opposition, the fact remains that a few Labour Party members and supporters, from the top to the bottom, have either engaged in antisemitism and the party has a whole has failed to deal with issues as they arise.

Central to Labour’s problem has been Jeremy Corybn himself, whether that is his conflation of his anti- Israeli position with the Jewish people more generally, his repeated presence in the company of Holocaust Deniers and anti-Semites, his failure to apologise for his past statements or associations and his complete lack of empathy with the concern of his own Jewish MPs and activists and the wider Jewish community more generally.

Even his own closest advisers privately admit that his handling of the antisemitism row has only made matters worse.

Of course, the overwhelming majority of Labour Party members, supporters and MPs are not antisemities, and as research on conspiracy theories shows, those people who voted UKIP in 2015, which is four million people, are far more likely to believe in Jewish conspiracies than Labour voters. Indeed, there is virtually no difference between the number of Labour voters who believe in anti-Jewish conspiracies than Conservative Party voters.

However, left wing antisemitism on the left is very real amongst a small but very vocal group of people.
A study of thousands of left wing social media accounts by HOPE not hate shows gives a glimpse into the extent of the problem. While overt antisemitism and Holocaust Denial is uncommon, a larger group engage in conspiratorial antisemitism and use antisemitic tropes, especially in relation to supposed Jewish power, and an even larger group are involved in denying a problem exists and dismissing the issue as a right wing and Zionist smear.

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Re: Politico-a-go-go Looney Tunes! Schorcio!
« Reply #2519 on: February 24, 2019, 10:28:53 am »
Nothing antisemitic here?

“My fanbase has shown scant regard for appropriate parliamentary language, so I apologise in advance. ‘Hang yourself you vile treacherous Zionist Tory filth, you’re a cancer of humanity’. ‘Ruth Smeeth is a Zionist, she has no shame and trades on the murder of Jews by Hitler, who the Zionists betrayed’. ‘Ruth Smeeth must surely be travelling first class to Tel Aviv with all that slush. After all, she’s complicit in trying to bring Corbyn down’.”

Digusting.

Who has said/written this?

Is it a labour M.P. or is it some random nutter who has signed up as a Labour supporter?
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