Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Red Beret]

Well we can.

Labour have come out and said they'll allow people to vote again if they're elected.

Great.  Have they said which side they will back this time?

[Cpt_Reina]

Great.  Have they said which side they will back this time?

Given public opinion on the matter has barely shifted in the past 3 years, no they havent.

Clearly they're attempting to not cut off around 50% (give or take a few points) of their possible voters too far ahead of an election.

They will do though, dont worry. And itll probably be remain.

[classycarra]

Clearly they're attempting to not cut off around 50% (give or take a few points) of their possible voters too far ahead of an election.

wait so if that's the strategy why are you trying to cut off possible voters from liberal remain types?

I think if that's the plan they are worse at maths and strategising than they come across

[Cpt_Reina]

wait so if that's the strategy why are you trying to cut off possible voters from liberal remain types?

I think if that's the plan they are worse at maths and strategising than they come across

How is giving remainers another vote cutting them off exactly?

[classycarra]

How is giving remainers another vote cutting them off exactly?

Didn't say anything about that? You're not giving us all another vote that I know of.

Was talking more about your race for absolute purity being at odds with the party's apparent goals. Must be a little galling for you that they're trying to appeal to voters for the brexit party, the tories and (god forbid) lib dems

[Red Viper]

No.  Having a black and white view of politics in the 21st Century is extreme. 

I have a black and white view when it comes to Tories and those who support/enable Tories and their policies. I thought I'd be in the majority view on this forum with that stance. I guess not

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Given public opinion on the matter has barely shifted in the past 3 years, no they havent.

Clearly they're attempting to not cut off around 50% (give or take a few points) of their possible voters too far ahead of an election.

They will do though, dont worry. And itll probably be remain.

so if it’s remain why waste time trying to negotiate instead of fixing those problems you list?

[Cpt_Reina]

I have a black and white view when it comes to Tories and those who support/enable Tories and their policies. I thought I'd be in the majority view on this forum with that stance. I guess not

Case by case assessment on tories depending on if they're leave or remain now. Keep up.

[Snail]

You're not giving us all another vote that I know of.

And in that election we will commit to a public vote with a credible option to leave and the option to remain.

https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-speech-tuc-congress/

[fudge]

As a Lib Dem I'm disappointed with the decision at conference, I can see the angle for simplicity and going aggressively for Remainers votes but so short sighted to literally alienate millions who regardless of their willingness to impose the same on us should not have the same done to them, in terms of denying a proper vote. All it needed was for a referendum vote and let them fight for their particular flavour of Brexit.

I certainly wouldn't have seen the need to do it before the original referendum as obviously it should never have gone to the people but now the genies out of the bottle it just leaves you open to the continual attack of being undemocratic.

[classycarra]

https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-speech-tuc-congress/

I didn't realise Cpt Reina was Jeremy Corbyn!

[Snail]

I didn't realise Cpt Reina was Jeremy Corbyn!

Eh?

[classycarra]

Eh?

I think you and Cpt Reina missed the word "you" in both my messages to him

[Snail]

I think you and Cpt Reina missed the word "you" in both my messages to him

The discussion was clearly about Labour policy?

[classycarra]

The discussion was clearly about Labour policy?

The discussion was clearly about Cpt Reinas attitude to potential voters not aligning with the labour strategy he set out

[Cpt_Reina]

The discussion was clearly about Cpt Reinas attitude to potential voters not aligning with the labour strategy he set out

I think you're overestimating my level of influence. Thanks though.

If you as a remainer won't vote for a party that is giving you a clear second chance to remain, as well as being the one party with a chance to narrow a gap between the haves and have nots then I dunno what else to say.

Vote Lib Dem by all means and enjoy the fruits of it.

[Snail]

The discussion was clearly about Cpt Reinas attitude to potential voters not aligning with the labour strategy he set out

If you're going to be deliberately obtuse then there's no point.

[classycarra]

I think you're overestimating my level of influence. Thanks though.

If you as a remainer won't vote for a party that is giving you a clear second chance to remain, as well as being the one party with a chance to narrow a gap between the haves and have nots then I dunno what else to say.

Vote Lib Dem by all means and enjoy the fruits of it.

I know you love to put words in people's mouths but given how bad you are at it you should probably not bother. Trust me, I'm under no illusions about how influential and persuasive you are.

If you're going to be deliberately obtuse then there's no point.

I have no idea what you're on about, although it seems a bit arrogant to expect that you know better than me what my message meant.

[Snail]

I know you love to put words in people's mouths but given how bad you are at it you should probably not bother. Trust me, I'm under no illusions about how influential and persuasive you are.

I have no idea what you're on about, although it seems a bit arrogant to expect that you know better than me what my message meant.

As if you've just accused me of arrogance when you've directed those two sentences towards Cpt_Reina

[classycarra]

As if you've just accused me of arrogance when you've directed those two sentences towards Cpt_Reina

Arrogance is mutually exclusive now? Interesting.

Weird that Cpt Reina thinks I want to vote Lib Dem when I'd be voting Labour at the next election. It's also weird you keep trying to wade your way into our discussion, including by telling me what I meant in my post. Is it by any chance related to me calling out your use of a false slur/smear yesterday?

[Nobby Reserve]

Swinson & the Lib Dems changing their policy to 'revoke without a 2nd Ref' is going down badly, I'm reading.

Have they felt compelled to do this in order to differentiate themselves from Labour, whose official position now is to allow a 2nd Ref? If so, it's folly, as Labour aren't the 'real and present danger' that the unequivocally pro-Brexit NuTories pose.

And, given the movement toward the centre-right that the Lib Dems have generally been making since 2010, and the recruitment of soft-Tories and 'Bliarite' centre-right Labour MPs, their natural targets should be Tory-Lib Dem marginals, predominantly in the south of the country, especially where there was a Remain majority or at least a close result.

I see no sense in shifting position away from a 2nd Ref, as it will alienate some remain-Tories and the policy is more virtue-signalling than it is a calculated move likely to attract more voters.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Truly speaking as a man of the people Andy.

I get it, trust me. I know whats on the line with Brexit. But pre-brexit britain isnt working for a shit tonne of people anyway. Even if you've not been touched by it to any extent.

Those protections and such are being eroded ANYWAY. People are already needlessly dying because of who we've chosen to govern us...all of this despite our EU membership.

Shutting yourself off from it and saying "yeah its a bit bad now but it'll get worse" is all well and good, its true too. But its the exact fucking arrogance and talking down to people being fucked over daily that led to so many being convinced the EU was a problem in the first place.

Its like nothing has been learned by remainers since the ref. All too busy patting themselves on the back about being right about the fuck up brexit would be that they still haven't bothered to think about how to address the underlying issues for the vote going the way it did.

If we remain but we dont throw our weight behind a labour party which is genuinely looking to level the playing field then all these issues will just crop up again.

People will still be getting fucked over to an ever increasing degree and the anger/hatred will still be there regardless of the EU keeping food and employment standards high.

Can you imagine what Austerity will be like once the NHS has been fully privatised and wholley owned by US Big Pharma and becomes an insurance based system? Can you imagine what Austerity would be like with no social safety net whatsoever..

Have you wondered why a priority for the Tories is building 10,000 new prison cells?

Have a think what people losing their human rights might do.. Assuming you bothered even reading what EU Human Rights are..?
Options I've seen discussed by some of those ERG nutters are things like Workhouses for the Poor,

[Snail]

Arrogance is mutually exclusive now? Interesting.

Weird that Cpt Reina thinks I want to vote Lib Dem when I'd be voting Labour at the next election. It's also weird you keep trying to wade your way into our discussion, including by telling me what I meant in my post. Is it by any chance related to me calling out your use of a false slur/smear yesterday?

You seem to be getting very rattled by the fact there's people disagreeing with the general tone of this thread. I'll get involved in any discussion I like, thanks.

[Cpt_Reina]

Can you imagine what Austerity will be like once the NHS has been fully privatised and wholley owned by US Big Pharma and becomes an insurance based system? Can you imagine what Austerity would be like with no social safety net whatsoever..

Have you wondered why a priority for the Tories is building 10,000 new prison cells?

Have a think what people losing their human rights might do.. Assuming you bothered even reading what EU Human Rights are..?
Options I've seen discussed by some of those ERG nutters are things like Workhouses for the Poor,

No hyperbole here whatsoever.

I think we're done. Been a pleasure.

[Red Viper]

Can you imagine what Austerity will be like once the NHS has been fully privatised and wholley owned by US Big Pharma and becomes an insurance based system? Can you imagine what Austerity would be like with no social safety net whatsoever..

Have you wondered why a priority for the Tories is building 10,000 new prison cells?

Have a think what people losing their human rights might do.. Assuming you bothered even reading what EU Human Rights are..?
Options I've seen discussed by some of those ERG nutters are things like Workhouses for the Poor,

None of these things will happen with a Labour government, which is what Cpt Reina is advocating for.

[classycarra]

You seem to be getting very rattled by the fact there's people disagreeing with the general tone of this thread. I'll get involved in any discussion I like, thanks.

Sure, let’s pretend that my issue with you falsely smearing MPs as transphobic and homophobic has made my head fall off. Nothing to do with preferring truth

[Snail]

Sure, let’s pretend that my issue with you falsely smearing MPs as transphobic and homophobic has made my head fall off

Stand by what I said about both of them.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

None of these things will happen with a Labour government, which is what Cpt Reina is advocating for.

What evidence do you have that Labour will be in power when a No-Deal Brexit happens?

[Cpt_Reina]

Honestly you'd like to think only hard core Brexiteers were so narrow minded and frankly brainwashed until you read remainers who believe no deal will result in workhouses.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Honestly you'd like to think only hard core Brexiteers were so narrow minded and frankly brainwashed until you read remainers who believe no deal will result in workhouses.

Wow you must be pretty sheltered not to have heard of Nike, Adidas, Amazon and the rest.

Imagine those places once Human Rights have gone and Working Rights have gone. They already have to take a dump wearing nappies.

[TheShanklyGates]

None of these things will happen with a Labour government, which is what Cpt Reina is advocating for.

That argument only makes sense if you believe Labour will be in power indefinitely after Brexit which we all know will not be the case. The second a Tory government gets in without any EU restrictions placed on them all bets are off. Sacrificing our EU membership for a term of Labour government is so dangerously short-sighted I'm not even sure where to begin. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That argument only makes sense if you believe Labour will in power indefinitely after Brexit which we all know will not be the case. The second a Tory government gets in without any EU restrictions placed on them all bets are off. Sacrificing our EU membership for a term of Labour government is so dangerously short-sighted I'm not even sure where to begin. 

Exactly right.

[dirks digglers]

Swinson & the Lib Dems changing their policy to 'revoke without a 2nd Ref' is going down badly, I'm reading.

Have they felt compelled to do this in order to differentiate themselves from Labour, whose official position now is to allow a 2nd Ref? If so, it's folly, as Labour aren't the 'real and present danger' that the unequivocally pro-Brexit NuTories pose.
.

Yep, I think this comes across as arrogant - you could call it principled - but it's a blatant attempt to hoover up votes in very specific areas to increase seat wins in a GE. It's an opportunist hit to nothing really.

It's genuinely tricky for Labour, there are pitfalls to any position on Brexit. Back revoke = arrogant, no deal = unthinkable, better deal = achievable?, people's vote = best option?

I don't think their position is wrong per se. It's just the sense of woolliness in how they have come to it vs the absolutely binary nature of the Brexit conversation. They could have sold their position better, mind you, because they've allowed themselves to look like they are self-serving, shooting down May's deal and braying about wanting an election instead. That played badly I think.

I always felt after the ref that the only way to avoid this current scenario was for all MPs to free vote, thereby being ultimately individually accountable to their constituents over the Brexit issue.

[classycarra]

Stand by what I said about both of them.

Heroic stance. I’ll leave you to your sensationalism/lies. Time for some lunch

[Red Viper]

So you all want to stop Brexit but if you're not going to vote Labour then I'm afraid you're opposing the only viable way to stop it.

[Welshred]

Corbyn wants his Lexit though. Voting Labour is a vote for Brexit.

[Elmo!]

So you all want to stop Brexit but if you're not going to vote Labour then I'm afraid you're opposing the only viable way to stop it.

The best way to stop Brexit IMO is to get a hung parliament that relies on the SNP and Lib Dems to govern. Ergo in certain seats it is best to vote Lib Dem (and SNP in any seat they stand in).

[eddymunster]

Corbyn wants his Lexit though. Voting Labour is a vote for Brexit.

I don't think that's true anymore to be honest. Problem is Labour won't get a majority with JC as leader.

[Red Viper]

Corbyn wants his Lexit though. Voting Labour is a vote for Brexit.

But he's literally offering another referendum on it.

[Elmo!]

But he's literally offering another referendum on it.

Which side will he support in it if he does hold a referendum?