Topic: Barcelona: Van hits crowds on Ramblas tourist area

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Not the point

So what is the point...? Why should we feel more guilty about hating someone with brown skin than someone with white skin?

[lobsterboy]

You can't.
You can barrier parts of the pavement to stop cars or completely separate every single pavement from the road. But these cowards will find a way to kill.

People have been killing in the name of religion from the start of time. Solve religion, Achieve world peace.

Religion is just a tool used to hold sway over the masses.
Its always been the same. Control sex lives and play on our fears of mortality. Very powerful.
Not sure its solvable unless we can rid our species of its greed and desire for control and power. Looking at our history I would say its pretty much impossible to solve. Perhaps by only our inevitable extinction?

[Yorkykopite]

So what is the point...? Why should we feel more guilty about hating someone with brown skin than someone with white skin?

It was a clumsy tweet by Tom Holland. The fact that most people misinterpreted it attests to its clumsiness. He was trying to make the point that Fascism can come with a brown face as well a white one and that, in the past, lots of well-meaning people, who are happy to call out things like White Supremacy, have been uncomfortable with equating Islamism with Fascism - and some have even sought to make excuses for their atrocities (a bit like one poster did earlier on this thread). 

[lobsterboy]

Not the point

so what is the point?
The general gist appears to be its OK to hate fascists only if they are white neo-nazis.
Personally, I hate all murderous scumbags who wish to impose their  ideologies of hate and intolerance on the rest of us through murdering innocents.

[TepidT2O]

so what is the point?
The general gist appears to be its OK to hate fascists only if they are white neo-nazis.
Personally, I hate all murderous scumbags who wish to impose their  ideologies of hate and intolerance on the rest of us through murdering innocents.

Yorky explained it better than I could.

[So… Howard Philips]

It was a clumsy tweet by Tom Holland. The fact that most people misinterpreted it attests to its clumsiness. He was trying to make the point that Fascism can come with a brown face as well a white one and that, in the past, lots of well-meaning people, who are happy to call out things like White Supremacy, have been uncomfortable with equating Islamism with Fascism - and some have even sought to make excuses for their atrocities (a bit like one poster did earlier on this thread).

And I don't recall anyone on here making excuses for Jo Cox's murderer or the arsehole who drove a car into people leaving a mosque in London either.

If it's wrong it's wrong.

[Yorkykopite]

And I don't recall anyone on here making excuses for Jo Cox's murderer or the arsehole who drove a car into people leaving a mosque in London either.

If it's wrong it's wrong.

Indeed. But excuses would have been made for both these atrocities as well. We don't hear them because we don't go on Far-Right websites. But some fucking loser is bound to have "explained" the reasons why Jo Cox deserved it - the Finsbury Park Muslims too. 

[TravisBickle]

Indeed. But excuses would have been made for both these atrocities as well. We don't hear them because we don't go on Far-Right websites. But some fucking loser is bound to have "explained" the reasons why Jo Cox deserved it - the Finsbury Park Muslims too.

 That Jack Buckby made excuses for Cox's murder. Described the incident as "death of a fool" and stood in the by-election that occurred as a result of her murder. He won a few votes as well. These people exist and they're fucking cranks to a man.

[Purple Red]

You can't stop vehicle terrorism, it'll then be something like, like groups using knives in mass pedestrian areas.

I'd ban religion. Let people worship how they want in private if they're so backward. In public, ban it all.

Prize for the stupidest idea aired on RAWK in a while goes to...

[markedasred]

Just a few weeks ago I moved my brothers worldly good to southern Spain where he is retiring after a few decades in London. We rented a van one way, and it was the first time I had been anywhere in Spain outside of Catalonia, as we have Catalan friends, and before I met them I had only been to Barcelona just by chance, a few months before the Olympics there. At Malaga airport a young woman was doing  a survey about our experience of Spain. She asked me, how many times I had been to Spain. I said you won't like this answer but this is my first time in Castilian speaking Spain, but I have been to Barcelona 15 to 20 times, I've lost count. She laughed.   I spent a fortune by my income standards on two nights for five of us in Barcelona for next week. I suspect the same family rooms will cost a fraction this week, but I can't begrudge them the cost as tourism will be hit hard by this. Probably the safest time to be there though, vigilance will be high. The security forces response rate was impressive anyway, with the obvious need to despise the amount of lives affected or lost already. I only wish my love of the place was not tarnished by their clubs shenanigans with our player.

[So… Howard Philips]

That Jack Buckby made excuses for Cox's murder. Described the incident as "death of a fool" and stood in the by-election that occurred as a result of her murder. He won a few votes as well. These people exist and they're fucking cranks to a man.

I'd never heard of Jack Buckby until this thread. Obviously a gimp.

Isn't it strange how all of these white supremacists look like, in his case Harry Potter, or other cartoon characters. None of Hitler's inner circle were particularly Aryan looking either.

[Purple Red]

No one condemns these brutal and cowardly attacks on innocent civilians by Hamas in Israel ... it's a sad world we live in.

Wars happen, I understand that they are difficult to avoid, but cold blooded murder of people you have targeted because they are innocent civilians is an entirely different matter.

It's terrifying how so entrenched some people get in their views of the Israel-Palestine conflict that civilian casualties become mere tools for ideological purposes. Dead Israelis don't fit with the progressive narrative that Israel are entirely to blame for the conflict. It's the same as Israeli supporters not shedding any tears over dead Palestinians. The most sickening aspect of any act of war or terrorism, for me personally, is how political activists couldn't care less for grieving families but rather the political capital it generates. Barcelona will be the same.

[Millie]

Looks like Finland is being hit now.

Just breaking on the Beeb

[So… Howard Philips]

Looks like Finland is being hit now.

Just breaking on the Beeb

Not clear yet what has happened and why.

[The Bournemouth Red]

Looks like Finland is being hit now.

Just breaking on the Beeb

Just seen this, multiple stabbings by one assailant who police shot in the leg, now in custody (edit).

[Red Beret]

Heart wrenching stuff.  Have a close friend who is Finnish, her brother lives there.

RIP.  Deeply saddened.  No words offer comfort at this terrible time. 

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

I was in a few of the spots in the pictures of the Barcelona attack just a couple of weeks ago, my wife is freaking out right now, I have another work trip there end of next month, I had to explain to her that everything will be fine.

Hope the victims who are hurt recover well, and the people who passed away rest in peace.

[dalarr]

I don't see a solution to this problem and it's making me very sad. I wish that the media would report differently though. With the constant live updates they are giving these bastards everything they ask for. (I'm not in any way, shape or form blaming the media for these horrendous acts).

How on earth can you justify killing innocent civilians and among them children? Somewhere in the world some evil evil men are feeding young men with poison. How do these fuckers sleep at night.

[Narwin Dunez]

IHow do these fuckers sleep at night.

After praising an imaginary sky fairy for giving them the orders in a book written by men.

[dalarr]

After praising an imaginary sky fairy for giving them the orders in a book written by men.

Of course. But they are still human. Somewhere deep inside there should be some rational thoughts telling them that killing children is wrong! If not, they should be able to understand that these acts change absolutely nothing, they only bring senseless pain and suffering.

[Jack the Red]

I was waking down Las Ramblas last Thursday afternoon with the wife and kids... it is absolutely packed with people at that time of day. My 13 year old daughter was in tears yesterday when she saw the news. It's tough having to explain to her that these bastards will NOT stop us going to places like this when she's terrified of something happening.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

I'm not one who uses the Ramblas on my many many visits to Bardelona. I only us it to cut across from Raval to Bari Gotic. But i will be spending some minutes there in just over four weeks to remember those who died and were injured.

Found out all my friends there are safe and sound.

[Golden_Child]

Prize for the stupidest idea aired on RAWK in a while goes to...

Not to be argumentative but please explain....

I've always been a proponent of "whatever you believe is your business, just don't let it affect others".

I'd be interested into hearing your ideas on why you disagree with the poster you quoted for reasons other than the logistics and likelihood of banning public religious displays (although I'd fucking love that).

I'm fully expecting a free speech argument (which I would ultimately agree with but is currently and potentially proving counterproductive)

[Purple Red]

Not to be argumentative but please explain....

I've always been a proponent of "whatever you believe is your business, just don't let it affect others".

I'd be interested into hearing your ideas on why you disagree with the poster you quoted for reasons other than the logistics and likelihood of banning public religious displays (although I'd fucking love that).

I'm fully expecting a free speech argument (which I would ultimately agree with but is currently and potentially proving counterproductive)

It's the exact sort of disproportionate response that would encourage these reprehensible vermin to increase the scale of their attacks. Such a ban would affect Muslim dress etc.

[stoa]

Not to be argumentative but please explain....

I've always been a proponent of "whatever you believe is your business, just don't let it affect others".

I'd be interested into hearing your ideas on why you disagree with the poster you quoted for reasons other than the logistics and likelihood of banning public religious displays (although I'd fucking love that).

I'm fully expecting a free speech argument (which I would ultimately agree with but is currently and potentially proving counterproductive)

The problem is it achieves nothing and only serves to create even more division. You don't see ISIS fighters roaming the streets waving signs saying "Kill the infidels". They meet in secret in some back room of a mosque or wherever they can and even online. A ban would not affect them. However, it would affect the people you'd want on your side, i.e. "regular" Muslims who oppose those extremists.
Trying to fight Islamist terrorism by banning religion is like trying to fight xenophobia by taking away everyone's passport...

[Golden_Child]

It's the exact sort of disproportionate response that would encourage these reprehensible vermin to increase the scale of their attacks. Such a ban would affect Muslim dress etc.

No offense mate but you haven't adequately answered the question.

Ultimately I'm in agreement with you but you haven't made a point.

[Golden_Child]

The problem is it achieves nothing and only serves to create even more division. You don't see ISIS fighters roaming the streets waving signs saying "Kill the infidels". They meet in secret in some back room of a mosque or wherever they can and even online. A ban would not affect them. However, it would affect the people you'd want on your side, i.e. "regular" Muslims who oppose those extremists.
Trying to fight Islamist terrorism by banning religion is like trying to fight xenophobia by taking away everyone's passport...

Please explain what a 'regular muslim' is.

I'm playing devils advocate by the way. Don't crucify me!

I'm just asking for the opinion before I question it

[Kenny's Jacket]

Not to be argumentative but please explain....

I've always been a proponent of "whatever you believe is your business, just don't let it affect others".

I'd be interested into hearing your ideas on why you disagree with the poster you quoted for reasons other than the logistics and likelihood of banning public religious displays (although I'd fucking love that).

I'm fully expecting a free speech argument (which I would ultimately agree with but is currently and potentially proving counterproductive)

Sorry to Geg in but I cant sleep. Im not sure about Purple Red but its just impossible to ban an idea and even if the ban was only public displays of religion its still going to cause more problems than it solves.  Wehad Muslims murdering Charlie Hebdo employee's A fatwa calling for Salman Rushdies death, supported by Brits like Cat Stevens. Imagine how much a ban would stoke the fire.

Im not currently upto Speed on our free speech laws, however I suspect there may be enough nastiness in the Bible and Qu'ran for a ban being justified without them claiming free speech.

In modern countries we give "protection" to personnel circumstances like race, gender, disability etc. Religious protection needs to stop.

I would like to see religious beliefs to be challenged more. We are still in a situation in the UK where religious leaders are sought out to give opinions on things that may define policy or law. Lets get an opinion from someone who thinks a 15 year old virgin had a baby that later rose from the dead or that a  schizophrenic warlord flew to Jerusalem then up to heaven on a winged horse. Its ridiculous. 

In the 70's it was socially acceptable to be racist or drive after a drink, we've managed to progress by challenging these norms.
We need to expose religion to enough scrutiny that it fades away, however a ban wont work or end well, just ask Guido Fawkes.

[MOZ]

My wife's uncle and his family were there when it happened. They ran into a cafe and ended up staying in there most of the night. Thankfully none of them were hurt.

[Purple Red]

No offense mate but you haven't adequately answered the question.

Ultimately I'm in agreement with you but you haven't made a point.

It would help if you could be clearer on what a public religious display is? You're being very obscure.

[So… Howard Philips]

The problem is it achieves nothing and only serves to create even more division. You don't see ISIS fighters roaming the streets waving signs saying "Kill the infidels". They meet in secret in some back room of a mosque or wherever they can and even online. A ban would not affect them. However, it would affect the people you'd want on your side, i.e. "regular" Muslims who oppose those extremists.
Trying to fight Islamist terrorism by banning religion is like trying to fight xenophobia by taking away everyone's passport...

Looking at the photos if the murderers shot by the police they all look like "normal" young guys.

Some of them even looked like some of our younger Hispanic players so it would be very difficult to identify them anywhere.

[stoa]

Please explain what a 'regular muslim' is.

I'm playing devils advocate by the way. Don't crucify me!

I'm just asking for the opinion before I question it

Okay, "regular" might have been the wrong choice of words. I'm talking about Muslims who don't see this whole thing as a war of religions. Who are prepared to work with, talk to and spend time with people no matter if they have a different religion. People who don't think you need to "kill infidels" or that they are somehow worse people because they believe in a different God. That's the vast majority of Muslims in the west I'd believe. Those are the people you need to encourage and banning them from congregating in a place of worship or whatever is the wrong way to go. Especially, when it won't stop terrorists who often aren't even that religious (or don't come from particularily religious families) in the first place, but get "caught" by some hate-preacher who then turns them into religious nutters.

[Upinsmoke]

Just been down there this afternoon to pay our respects. It was still packed, lots of crowds and memorials.

Also a sense of defiance and nobody was afraid to be there.

[TepidT2O]

Just to ease people's concerns over the risk of terrorism, these are the deaths from terrorism over the last few decades...



And then showing deaths from terrorism in Europe as a percentage of total global deaths from terrorism...



When we look at terrorism, it's changed.  We've gone from high concept and high tech attacks like 9/11, and we've stopped them being feasible.
They then moved on to lower concept high tech attacks such as the 7/7 bombings.  These have since been made far more difficult, and have been very rare subsequently .

So we are left with low concept, low tech attacks such as Barcelona, London and Finland.
In Barcelona, the checks put in place to prevent major terrors attacks worked.  They wanted to build large scale bombs and put them on trucks, paperwork checking stopped this being possible.

So, whilst it is no consolation to the families of those who died, things are perhaps not quite as bad as they seem.

[classycarra]

Just to ease people's concerns over the risk of terrorism, these are the deaths from terrorism over the last few decades...



And then showing deaths from terrorism in Europe as a percentage of total global deaths from terrorism...



When we look at terrorism, it's changed.  We've gone from high concept and high tech attacks like 9/11, and we've stopped them being feasible.
They then moved on to lower concept high tech attacks such as the 7/7 bombings.  These have since been made far more difficult, and have been very rare subsequently .

So we are left with low concept, low tech attacks such as Barcelona, London and Finland.
In Barcelona, the checks put in place to prevent major terrors attacks worked.  They wanted to build large scale bombs and put them on trucks, paperwork checking stopped this being possible.

So, whilst it is no consolation to the families of those who died, things are perhaps not quite as bad as they seem.

Is it worth sticking this post - or just quoting it - in the wider context terrorism thread, Tepid? Seems very relevant to it

[ggcc14]

seem's like the Catalan police are doing a sterling job wiping out these monsters.

[TepidT2O]

Is it worth sticking this post - or just quoting it - in the wider context terrorism thread, Tepid? Seems very relevant to it

It's relevant in that the relative terrorist threat is less than it was.  It's easy to get scared and change your life and ways, there's no need to.

However, it shouldn't let us ignore the evil that is ialsmist terrorism, and neither should it let us shy away from tackling this evil and it's causes.

[Fiasco]

Some new information coming out today. After the attack the perpetrator who drove the van down Las Ramblas escaped on foot and then hijacked a car in the university district. The car drove past a police checkpoint and was later abandoned. The owner of the vehicle was found stabbed to death in the back seat.

A man has been shot and killed 25 miles from Barcelona, he was wearing what appeared to be an explosive belt. There is no word yet if this is the suspect on the loose from the attack on Las Ramblas.

[Narwin Dunez]

Guardian saying the van driver has been shot and killed.

Hope he suffered, c*nt.

[The Bournemouth Red]

We could do with these Catalan coppers over here.