Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2017-18

[farawayred]

So they won't score more than 15 points for the rest of the season?

How many points do you think we should have as a target next season if we want to win the league?  If we got 90 this season, we'd not have been close.

As I always interpreted the APLT charts, 90 points is the target for winning the league. It still is. City will likely make more points, but that means that no other team will.

I see your point though in the event that two teams are performing like City. Then the 90 points will not be a determining factor that separates those. But we will worry about that next season when we compete with City.

[drmick]

What has been the highest 2nd place points total?

[Djozer]

Think Utd got 88 or 89 a few years back when City won it on goal difference.

[sms1986]

What has been the highest 2nd place points total?

Going back in order from last season -

86 pts Spurs
71 pts Arsenal
79 pts Man City
84 pts Liverpool
78 pts Man City
89 pts Man United
71 pts Chelsea
85 pts Man United
86 pts Liverpool
85 pts Chelsea
83 pts Chelsea
83 pts Man United
83 pts Arsenal
79 pts Chelsea
78 pts Arsenal
80 pts Liverpool
70 pts Arsenal
73 pts Arsenal
78 pts Arsenal
77 pts Man United
68 pts Newcastle
78 pts Newcastle
88 pts Man United
84 pts Blackburn
74 pts Aston Villa

89 for United is the biggest, but many other times teams have come close to that. The average is 79.6 points.

[Iska]

lest we forget

[Kennys from heaven]

Arsenal

Gesundheit...

[Kennys from heaven]

lest we forget

Seeing that when Aguero hit the winner against QPR was one of the most satisfying moments in football watching any team other than my own. Oh, and the pictures of Demento's face falling as well. We'd do well to get the lead down to 9 points at the end of the season though, as they've just had a freak season akin to the Arsenal side going unbeaten in '03-'04 and as someone else said elsewhere, you can't begrudge them even with their resources, as they've shown themselves to be worthy.

That said, we stop stupid draws against sides and an ability to do over lower ranked teams - something that we're starting to show signs we can do - and next season has the makings of an historic one. Keita coming in with possibly a few others should see us at the level we need to be at. And let's not discount the possibility that we could do well in the Champions League either which in all honesty given the way that we're both playing would not surprise me if it was us and them in the final come May. Outlandish? maybe, but we're in form and looking good enough to do so and I think take three points of the shithouses down the road on Saturday and it would also be a great omen.

Key thing to winning the league is consistency and an ability to grind out the results when things don't go to plan. I would take a boring 1-0 on the odd occasion, but the APLT does makes some wonderful reading for a Red. Turning it into a reality would be even better though...

[drmick]

Going back in order from last season -

86 pts Spurs
71 pts Arsenal
79 pts Man City
84 pts Liverpool
78 pts Man City
89 pts Man United
71 pts Chelsea
85 pts Man United
86 pts Liverpool
85 pts Chelsea
83 pts Chelsea
83 pts Man United
83 pts Arsenal
79 pts Chelsea
78 pts Arsenal
80 pts Liverpool
70 pts Arsenal
73 pts Arsenal
78 pts Arsenal
77 pts Man United
68 pts Newcastle
78 pts Newcastle
88 pts Man United
84 pts Blackburn
74 pts Aston Villa

89 for United is the biggest, but many other times teams have come close to that. The average is 79.6 points.

Thanks for taking the time to do that. Some pretty high totals in there, mote than I realised.

[Brian Blessed]

90 points is still the right target as it always wins the title; the question is really only which are the right 12 games in which to lose those 24 dropped points.

The only fairly simple adjustment would be at game 19 change the par 1s to match that table, so you get a better idea which teams really are the hardest. But that sort of ruins the simplicity.

[Nessy76]

Going back in order from last season -

86 pts Spurs
71 pts Arsenal
79 pts Man City
84 pts Liverpool
78 pts Man City
89 pts Man United
71 pts Chelsea
85 pts Man United
86 pts Liverpool
85 pts Chelsea
83 pts Chelsea
83 pts Man United
83 pts Arsenal
79 pts Chelsea
78 pts Arsenal
80 pts Liverpool
70 pts Arsenal
73 pts Arsenal
78 pts Arsenal
77 pts Man United
68 pts Newcastle
78 pts Newcastle
88 pts Man United
84 pts Blackburn
74 pts Aston Villa

89 for United is the biggest, but many other times teams have come close to that. The average is 79.6 points.

[Joff]

68 points - Newcastle second. Must have been a shit year.

[kcbworth]

Our 2nds in recent years while incredible seasons wouldn't have even got 2nd other seasons. Tough league

[Ray K]

68 points - Newcastle second. Must have been a shit year.

That was the year where we were 2nd in a two horse race after beating Arsenal at Highbury in late March in the Robbie Fowler penalty game and absolutely fucked up the run-in.

[Iska]

68 points - Newcastle second. Must have been a shit year.

You could equally make the argument that it reflects a stronger league.  The top four could conceivably all break 80 this year, but a lot of that would be down to how bad the bottom two-thirds are.

[Suareznumber7]

You could equally make the argument that it reflects a stronger league.  The top four could conceivably all break 80 this year, but a lot of that would be down to how bad the bottom two-thirds are.

I think the league this year is really, really shit.  Not even taking into account Man City who is absolutely pissing the league.  Everyone thought that all this new money coming into the league was going to make it harder for the top 6 but, in reality, it’s been the opposite.  It’s so disappointing seeing all of these bottom half teams do nothing but defend against the top 6.  This league is crying out for a new batch of young, talented managers with different ideas then the old guard who give up before a ball is kicked. 

[wige]

Seeing that when Aguero hit the winner against QPR was one of the most satisfying moments in football watching any team other than my own. Oh, and the pictures of Demento's face falling as well. We'd do well to get the lead down to 9 points at the end of the season though, as they've just had a freak season akin to the Arsenal side going unbeaten in '03-'04 and as someone else said elsewhere, you can't begrudge them even with their resources, as they've shown themselves to be worthy.

That said, we stop stupid draws against sides and an ability to do over lower ranked teams - something that we're starting to show signs we can do - and next season has the makings of an historic one. Keita coming in with possibly a few others should see us at the level we need to be at. And let's not discount the possibility that we could do well in the Champions League either which in all honesty given the way that we're both playing would not surprise me if it was us and them in the final come May. Outlandish? maybe, but we're in form and looking good enough to do so and I think take three points of the shithouses down the road on Saturday and it would also be a great omen.

Key thing to winning the league is consistency and an ability to grind out the results when things don't go to plan. I would take a boring 1-0 on the odd occasion, but the APLT does makes some wonderful reading for a Red. Turning it into a reality would be even better though...

No

[Qston]

I think the league this year is really, really shit.  Not even taking into account Man City who is absolutely pissing the league.  Everyone thought that all this new money coming into the league was going to make it harder for the top 6 but, in reality, it’s been the opposite.  It’s so disappointing seeing all of these bottom half teams do nothing but defend against the top 6.  This league is crying out for a new batch of young, talented managers with different ideas then the old guard who give up before a ball is kicked.

Quite possibly. In years gone by there has inevitably been 1 or 2 teams that have taken a hiding week in week out but the old cliche that the rest were capable of beating anyone on their day was also true until this season. It used to happen quite regularly. What has happened this season is that all the teams bar the top 6 have been beating each other lowering the points total but also meaning that there was no one team taking a hiding every single week other than west brom in the last few months. The points difference between 7th and the bottom is much smaller than it has been in recent seasons and it reflects the fact that they are all taking points off each other. This is all whilst the top 5 or 6 are going on long winning streaks and building up impressive points totals. It has been an odd season in many ways. City are having a season that is unlikely to be matched again anytime soon - a bit like arsenal did with the invincibles. The next 4 teams all have points totals and goal differences that are remarkably similar and then everyone below arsenal only have 20 points between them and if you take WBA out then only 13 points.

A bit of a ramble then so I apologise but in short, a strange old season this.

[drmick]

Our 2nds in recent years while incredible seasons wouldn't have even got 2nd other seasons. Tough league

Our 2nds in recent years while incredible seasons wouldn't have even got 2nd other seasons. Tough league

Yourself or Nessy- is that a graph based on your own spreadsheet?

If so, is it possible to draw a line of best fit through it? I'd be curious to know if there is even a hint of a trend.

(Same for league winners too, now that I think of it).

[JCB]

Yourself or Nessy- is that a graph based on your own spreadsheet?

If so, is it possible to draw a line of best fit through it? I'd be curious to know if there is even a hint of a trend.

(Same for league winners too, now that I think of it).

If you recall Mick, I did something akin to that for the top 6. Mine only went as far back as 2000 though.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=337435.msg15822850#msg15822850

[Nessy76]

Yourself or Nessy- is that a graph based on your own spreadsheet?

If so, is it possible to draw a line of best fit through it? I'd be curious to know if there is even a hint of a trend.

(Same for league winners too, now that I think of it).

I just plotted the data quoted above on a free online graph doohickey, don't think that was an option soz.

[drmick]

If you recall Mick, I did something akin to that for the top 6. Mine only went as far back as 2000 though.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=337435.msg15822850#msg15822850

Ah yes. I just re-quoted it (thinking it was this thread- doh!)

[keyop]

you can't begrudge them even with their resources, as they've shown themselves to be worthy.

Yes you can. Anyone that buys the title is never worthy, including City, Chelsea and PSG. I have no doubt City play great, clean football in the right spirit, but then so do my son's team. The City team we beat this season cost more then double ours, and worthy winners in any sport are those that compete and win on a level playing field, or are able to defy the odds.

[farawayred]

Yes you can. Anyone that buys the title is never worthy, including City, Chelsea and PSG. I have no doubt City play great, clean football in the right spirit, but then so do my son's team. The City team we beat this season cost more then double ours, and worthy winners in any sport are those that compete and win on a level playing field, or are able to defy the odds.

But as long as players have a price, there won't ever be a level playing field. 

[btandt]

But as long as players have a price, there won't ever be a level playing field.

This.
If you've got it, why would you not spend it?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yes you can. Anyone that buys the title is never worthy, including City, Chelsea and PSG. I have no doubt City play great, clean football in the right spirit, but then so do my son's team. The City team we beat this season cost more then double ours, and worthy winners in any sport are those that compete and win on a level playing field, or are able to defy the odds.

We used to do that, back in the day...

[Prof]

We used to do that, back in the day...

There's a huge difference between clubs that have been supported by local business people (think Hayward at Blackburn) or clubs that have built their spending power through building a brand and getting sponsorship due to on pitch success (dare I say Man Utd) and clubs who have been bought out and 'invested' in by what should be the national wealth of other countries (Chelsea and Man City).

Any spending power we have now is down to the brand and on pitch success over decades.  I don't see any of the titles Chelsea or man city have as counting as much from a sporting perspective.  The badge of the club against those titles could just as easily be any other club badge.

[PhaseOfPlay]

There's a huge difference between clubs that have been supported by local business people (think Hayward at Blackburn) or clubs that have built their spending power through building a brand and getting sponsorship due to on pitch success (dare I say Man Utd) and clubs who have been bought out and 'invested' in by what should be the national wealth of other countries (Chelsea and Man City).

Any spending power we have now is down to the brand and on pitch success over decades.  I don't see any of the titles Chelsea or man city have as counting as much from a sporting perspective.  The badge of the club against those titles could just as easily be any other club badge.

Not arguing - but when we were the top team in the land, we basically bought whatever player we needed, with very few slipping through the net - especially in the mid to late 80s. Most teams who win titles spend good amounts of money on getting the best players they can. The likes of City, United and Chelsea raised the levels exponentially, but the principle of "buying the title" is not something we're strangers to as a club.

[SpionBob]

There's a huge difference between clubs that have been supported by local business people (think Hayward at Blackburn) or clubs that have built their spending power through building a brand and getting sponsorship due to on pitch success (dare I say Man Utd) and clubs who have been bought out and 'invested' in by what should be the national wealth of other countries (Chelsea and Man City).

Any spending power we have now is down to the brand and on pitch success over decades.  I don't see any of the titles Chelsea or man city have as counting as much from a sporting perspective.  The badge of the club against those titles could just as easily be any other club badge.

I basically agree with the Prof on this but we should still have respect for clubs like Manchester City and Chelsea who were both decent sized clubs in the 60's and 70's before falling on hard times as did Leeds United too. In their time these clubs all spent big money, I remember Manchester City breaking the transfer record with Steve Daley and spending a king's ransom on Mike Robinson and still they finished lower than us despite outspending us. ManUre too always spent more than us but we were better managed/coached. Under Klopp we are heading back the same way and when we win trophies it will mean more because we are not the absolute top spenders. So proud to support this great club.

[btandt]

There's a huge difference between clubs that have been supported by local business people (think Hayward at Blackburn) or clubs that have built their spending power through building a brand and getting sponsorship due to on pitch success (dare I say Man Utd) and clubs who have been bought out and 'invested' in by what should be the national wealth of other countries (Chelsea and Man City).

Any spending power we have now is down to the brand and on pitch success over decades.  I don't see any of the titles Chelsea or man city have as counting as much from a sporting perspective.  The badge of the club against those titles could just as easily be any other club badge.

Do you mean that local business people (like Martin Edwards, the local butcher's lad) selling out a profitable concern to 'local' Irish racehorse stud owners and 'local' Americans (who take money out of the club) is preferable to Bates selling an unprofitable concern to a non-local Russian oligarch, or Wardle to a non-local Thai and then a non-local Arab billionaire, who put money into the club? Me, I would rather owners put money in than took it out. And I don't have any preference for rich Americans over rich Russians. Or rich Arabs. Or rich local butchers, come to that.

The spending power of the clubs now is principally from tv and sponsorship money, not from the pockets of the owners. They are mostly sitting very happily on often spectacular increases in the value of the clubs as an asset. The days when my half crown at the turnstile made a difference to how much Ronnie Yeats might have been paid disappeared around the same time as half crowns.

The question should not be whether a Chelsea championship last year or a City championship this year in some mystical way 'counts less' than a Liverpool championship in 1990; but what can Liverpool do to stop it next year and the year after and the year after that? Leicester did something; Liverpool nothing - so far!

[RooiBefok]

APLT Full Table : Round 29

[RooiBefok]

APLT Analysis & Extrapolations : Round 29

[RooiBefok]

LFC Current & Projected Form : Round 29

[Nessy76]

The spending power of the clubs now is principally from tv and sponsorship money, not from the pockets of the owners.

Clearly not, in the case of City and until recently, Chelsea.

[MerseysideBrum]

New APLT numbers:

City: 5
United: -7
Liverpool: -11
Chelsea -12
Spurs: -13
Arsenal -22

Matchday 30 preview:

City: 5 Stoke (A) Par 1 Win:7 Draw:5 Lose:4
United: -7 Liverpool (H) Par 3 Win:-7 Draw:-9 Lose:-10
Liverpool: -11 United (A) Par 1 Win:-9 Draw:-11 Lose:-12
Chelsea -12 Palace (H) Par 3 Win:-11 Draw:-13 Lose:-14
Spurs: -13 Bournmouth (A) Par 1 Win:-11 Draw:-13 Lose:-14
Arsenal -22 Watford (H) Par 3 Win:-22 Draw:-24 Lose:-25

Interesting week APLT-wise. We can leap United if we can pull off a win at OT. Spurs can leap-frog us or go level with us if we fail to win at OT. Chelsea need a win to stop their freefall and a win for United would all but confirm them a top 4 finish. City and Arsenal are both out of sight at the top and bottom respectively.

[btandt]

Clearly not, in the case of City and until recently, Chelsea.

So, presumably you think their accounts are not true?
Get used to the idea: City are now spending money from being in the Champions League every year; the only such Club; and from being a tv Company favourite. No new investment (or borrowing) for the last three years. That's what the rest of the big six (and also-ran 14) are up against, not a rich sheik. He's done his bit; he'll bank the money from now on in.
Chelsea have always shown Abramovich's money as "borrowed", a different business model. They're still borrowing, presumably to pay the compensation due to an unending succession of sacked managers, They weren't in either CL or Europa last year, and that will hit their earnings by more than the Prem trophy boosts them.

[Nessy76]

So, presumably you think their accounts are not true?
Get used to the idea: City are now spending money from being in the Champions League every year; the only such Club; and from being a tv Company favourite. No new investment (or borrowing) for the last three years. That's what the rest of the big six (and also-ran 14) are up against, not a rich sheik. He's done his bit; he'll bank the money from now on in.
Chelsea have always shown Abramovich's money as "borrowed", a different business model. They're still borrowing, presumably to pay the compensation due to an unending succession of sacked managers, They weren't in either CL or Europa last year, and that will hit their earnings by more than the Prem trophy boosts them.

Oh dear. This really isn't the thread for this, but no, Manchester City are definitely not simply spending what they legitimately earned. What do they call their stadium now? Look into that deal, it's an eye-opener.

[btandt]

Oh dear. This really isn't the thread for this, but no, Manchester City are definitely not simply spending what they legitimately earned. What do they call their stadium now? Look into that deal, it's an eye-opener.

You are, of course, absolutely correct.

That this isn't the thread, that is.

The rest is just innuendo, innit?

[KurtVerbose]

The rest is just innuendo, innit?

Unless you can make it stand up?

[btandt]

Unless you can make it stand up?

Make what stand up?
I know what the audited accounts say; I know what Liverpool's audited accounts say; I know what the Arsenal accounts say. I don't know what an uncited, unnamed, website probably quoting what the Hindoostan Times says that an American expert living in Kalamazoo but with an important and knowledgeable contact in Skem who used to work in Al Ain with the Mahdi himself says. But I'm sure you do.
If you think that Liverpool FC will learn anything, and improve anything to their benefit, by investigating the 'Etihad Stadium' deal (of which there are actually four) and complaining about it, feel free to expose all. If you think THAT is the way to improve LFC performance, please forgive my utter, utter, disagreement. If sheer wealth is taking over the Prem (and I hope it isn't) why not come up with anything that might stop it?
[Edit] But, like I already conceded, not the thread].

[KurtVerbose]

Make what stand up?

Ooh er mrs.