Topic: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)

[gatcliffe]

A point gained on the equivalent fixture last year.

Forget last season 2 points dropped today.

[Joe Allens chicken]

I for one dont believe they are bad. His punch in 2nd half to drive off carroll was good positional movement. Mistakes happen , but Karius is still an upgrade on Migs...any fucking day. #StickwithKarius

Are you trying to start a twitter trend or something?

[FLRed67]

Lack of confidence in the back five now palpable. Especially the goalkeeper, obviously.

I would give Karius a rest. I don't think this run is helping him.

Ironic to see Clemence in the stands. Is it a coincidence that when we were the dominant team, we had the best goalkeeper?

I have always wondered why clubs think nothing of spending 30-40 million on strikers, but always look to pick up goalkeepers on the cheap. Can someone who understands how football clubs think explain this to me?

[TepidT2O]

All bar one corner failed to beat the last man, I'm pretty sure.

Wijnaldum is so technically unspectacular, it's painful. Average on the ball, good off it.

I think you mean the first man?

We constantly go for a flick on at the front post from Mane(?)

If it doesn't quite work it looks like it's not beating the first man...

[Luke 17]

I was all for replacing Mignolet if the replacement was an upgrade. Karius is not an upgrade.

[Rob Dylan]

I'm just so sick of seeing us make the same stupid mistakes, over and over again, season after season, whoever the manager is. Why do we always fuck it up against the average teams? Wouldn't mind so much if we just fell short against the top teams. Klopp said they were angry after last week, well it didn't look like it, they looked totally complacent after taking the lead, surely they should know by now that one goal is never enough for us.

Not long ago we were top, we've had a run of fairly easy games and now we're six points off 1st place.

[Rush 82]

Ok. Thing is Payet put that several feet from the corner. The wall seemed to unsight Karius and his starting position left him too much ground to cover. You can't just concede that the wall will stop the ball...  you have to give yourself the chance of making it over to that side to cover it.

Payet can put the ball into either corner. 

I'm not going to blame Karius for that goal. 

[clinical]

Question in my mind is will klopp change his man.

We have seen players get the chop mama, migs others in the summer.
I wonder what he will do genuinely. Stubbornness is a major flaw in most football managers when they stick by their man rightly or wrongly.

I think klopp is different but i think karius number 1 for at least the season

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Stubbornness is the downfall of most managers so let's hope not.
 

[pyroparty]

simply not true

Shut up, it's easily true. Then again you probably dont watch as you are too busy up Gary Neville's arse during games.

[Priest078]

Needed the 12th man in the second half.

[red vinyl]

Avens,its not a myth about not having the correct starting position for a free kick. He showed Payet who is a good striker of the ball where to aim,got there and should imo saved it.
The rest of his game was solid but i hope a pattern dosent develop where we gift a goal or two through bad goalkeeping again.

[killer-heels]

Disappointing to drop points. I thought we attacked well and got down the sides well. But at the end of the day you cannot be conceding that many goals and expect to win all the time.

I thought Mane was great but with him off in Jan and Coutinho maybe just getting his fitness back I hope we show some ambition to get another good player in.

[Arcadian]

Payet can put the ball into either corner. 

I'm not going to blame Karius for that goal.

Well he can, but he didn't.

[Marty 85]

Question in my mind is will klopp change his man.

We have seen players get the chop mama, migs others in the summer.
I wonder what he will do genuinely. Stubbornness is a major flaw in most football managers when they stick by their man rightly or wrongly.

I think klopp is different but i think karius number 1 for at least the season

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

This is it. He's seemingly backed himself into a corner. Today I wanted 3 points first and a good performance by Karius secondly. More so than a 5 or 6-0 entertaining win. There was alot of shit flung during the week over Karius and I'm afraid he didn't do anything to repay the faith put in him. If he was on his toes when Payet hit that, I don't doubt he would've saved it, but he had his feet planted and was too slow to get across the goal because of it.

[smicer07]

West Ham are a decent side. Their league placing is false and they deserved a draw. It was refreshing to see a team actually play some football against us. So fair play really.

[lessthanmatt]

Really? What are you basing that on? His inability to curl the ball in with his shot? Did you not see his turn in the box to control the ball? He was very unfortunate not to get the shot off.

The turn surprised me. It's uncharacteristic of him. The better option in that case was to just pass it off to Firmino who was coming in and facing the goal - but it was almost brilliant. And I'm basing my opinion on having watched him in a Liverpool shirt.

[BRdispatch05]

Rawk has to be one of the only forums where the players get more harsh criticism the higher we are in the table

[Malcolm Night]

Mignolet will be desperate to prove himself and Karius' confidence is horribly shot so it seems like the clear decision to bring Mignolet back in. And forget all the 'bedding in' nonsense - we've had a good half decade of that without anything improving.

[Gerry Attrick]

Don't understand why Moreno isn't seeing more gametime in games like these. He's not great defensively but at least he'll provide us with some width and he can whip a few balls across the 6 yard box.

[Caligula?]

Fantastic to see everyone shitting themselves and helping to perpetuate the Karius myth. The agenda has been set, every time anything slightly questionable happens the commentators jump on board. There was a moment first half when he came out and got to the ball before the West Ham striker. Cech, Courtois, De Gea do that and they say "good goalkeeping". For Karius, they use it as a platform to criticise. Fans hear it, believe it and the nervousness around Karius continues and grows, then he can sense it, causing nervousness and the commentators say "there's a nervousness about Karius" and the cycle continues. He's really not that bad. If he'd got nowhere near that free kick, nobody would have said anything. It's only because he did well to get to it and having done that should have kept it out. Commentators always say how goalkeepers need to look after the side of the goal not protected by the wall - that's what he was doing. The second goal, was an unfortunate Matip mistake. Antonio hits it at him and people would talk about what a great decision it was to not come flying out. The best way to break this cycle of negativity is for the fans to support him and forget about what these utterly clueless commentators and pundits have to say.

Of course he did well to get anything on it, considering he was nearly touching his left-hand post when the ball was struck. Take a look at his starting position the moment Payet strikes the ball. It's extremely poor and amateur at best.

[Haggis36]

I'm just so sick of seeing us make the same stupid mistakes, over and over again, season after season, whoever the manager is. Why do we always fuck it up against the average teams? Wouldn't mind so much if we just fell short against the top teams. Klopp said they were angry after last week, well it didn't look like it, they looked totally complacent after taking the lead, surely they should know by now that one goal is never enough for us.

Not long ago we were top, we've had a run of fairly even games and now we're six points off 1st place.

Groundhog day, isn't it?

This team looks every inch the Liverpool team of the past 3-4 years - lots of promise, but completely lacking the required mental strength, prone to a complete meltdown against average sides and conceding for fun.

Nothing ever changes.

[sms1986]

Disappointing to drop points. I thought we attacked well and got down the sides well. But at the end of the day you cannot be conceding that many goals and expect to win all the time.

I thought Mane was great but with him off in Jan and Coutinho maybe just getting his fitness back I hope we show some ambition to get another good player in.

I think Klopp will have a very good idea what to do with the transfer window, I wouldn't be surprised if we do all of our business in the first week or so.

[Avens]

Avens,its not a myth about not having the correct starting position for a free kick. He showed Payet who is a good striker of the ball where to aim,got there and should imo saved it.
The rest of his game was solid but i hope a pattern dosent develop where we gift a goal or two through bad goalkeeping again.

It is a myth. He is absolutely nowhere near as bad as pundits and many of our own fans seem to think he is. But, the negativity around him certainly won't help his confidence.

[RedRaj]

Yep, he's awful, dunno if he's a frustrated fan or trying not to appear biased but he's like a vulture when one of our players makes a mistake. Shit like "Karius is killing the team" is horrific drivel. If some pundits had said Carra was killing the team when he was scoring OG's he'd have threatened to send lads round.

Agree. Many players seem to go this way when becoming pundits. They lose perspective and disconnect themselves from their careers when they made mistakes or had shit performances aplenty. Having read Cara's book I am not surprised. He actually came across as a little arrogant and overrating his own ability. Before anyone has a go, I still think he is a club legend.

[lessthanmatt]

I think you mean the first man?

We constantly go for a flick on at the front post from Mane(?)

If it doesn't quite work it looks like it's not beating the first man...

Yeah I meant first man. I wasn't aware that was a tactic of ours @ flick. Either way the corners were atrocious. The two best ones were when Matip hit the bar (which wasn't swung it to the first man iirc) and one from Henderson at the end which landed in the middle and there was a desperate scrap to get rid of it by WHU

[Avens]

Of course he did well to get anything on it, considering he was nearly touching his left-hand post when the ball was struck. Take a look at his starting position the moment Payet strikes the ball. It's extremely poor and amateur at best.

You're ignoring the fact that his wall should've done far better.

[Haggis36]

I think Klopp will have a very good idea what to do with the transfer window, I wouldn't be surprised if we do all of our business in the first week or so.

If by all our business you mean none... I think people will be bitterly disappointed if they think we are making any first-team signings in January.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Fantastic to see everyone shitting themselves and helping to perpetuate the Karius myth. The agenda has been set, every time anything slightly questionable happens the commentators jump on board. There was a moment first half when he came out and got to the ball before the West Ham striker. Cech, Courtois, De Gea do that and they say "good goalkeeping". For Karius, they use it as a platform to criticise. Fans hear it, believe it and the nervousness around Karius continues and grows, then he can sense it, causing nervousness and the commentators say "there's a nervousness about Karius" and the cycle continues. He's really not that bad. If he'd got nowhere near that free kick, nobody would have said anything. It's only because he did well to get to it and having done that should have kept it out. Commentators always say how goalkeepers need to look after the side of the goal not protected by the wall - that's what he was doing. The second goal, was an unfortunate Matip mistake. Antonio hits it at him and people would talk about what a great decision it was to not come flying out. The best way to break this cycle of negativity is for the fans to support him and forget about what these utterly clueless commentators and pundits have to say.

I wouldn't say he "did well" to get there though. Getting there is a really realy basic expectation from that free kick. If he hadn't have got there, I'd be seriously questioning him in the long term. He should have kept it out. If his starting position is better, he probably does.

[dirkster]

Can't fault the effort of the players second half.  Just lacked that little piece of invention and incisiveness. The bench also had very few options attacking wise Hopefully this our blip out of the way. Time to go on another long unbeaten run.

[hesbighesred]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue against Clyne's biggest weakness attribute is attacking, but his inability to cross is a fallacy. Just needs to keep them low to the ground like his peach to Origi last week. Besides, its all about trade offs. We saw that with Moreno too much. 

But criticism's like that or how Gini is technically deficient (and yes he needs to add goals) are just one of the reasons this place is horrid when things go south for a bit.

No one cares about the fullbacks when you are on a 15 game unbeaten streak, but boom, a loss and a draw people start looking for blame where it is isn't.

Our biggest issues are clearly 1. A Keeper and 2. An thin attack stifled by injuries.

People looking for smoke where it isn't.   

1. The amount of pressure we were able to put West Ham under in the second half is partly down to the 'keeper. He'll come good, but while he's obviously having a rough time it would help if people (not saying you) at least made some sort of effort to see what he actually brings to the table.

2. You talk about a thin attack - which is fair, but we have scored 5 in two, and the more you come up against defensive teams, the more important the full-backs become. It's why Rafa ultimately spent so much on Glen Johnson.

That said, you're spot on about trade-offs and also about people throwing toys out of the pram, and yeah, the thing I hate most about RAWK is when Liverpool 'supporters' suddenly start trying to outdo each other in finding ways to exagerrate about how shit our players are.

I personally think today was a really bad one - I think psychologically we really needed the win today in terms of our belief for a possible title challenge - but we're entering the really key part of the season and even a top 4 finish this season would be absolutely belting from where we've come from.

I'm just still genuinely thrilled about the kind of foundations we've put into place this season. We're setting ourselves up to be able to challenge season after season, and that sense of building real foundations is something I haven't had about us since we had Rafa, maybe briefly under Houllier. I mean look how well both Dortmund and Mainz are still doing since Klopp left, you know? He doesn't just build teams, he builds clubs. We're lucky to have him and two shit results on the bounce doesn't change that.

[smicer07]

You're ignoring the fact that his wall should've done far better.

Didn't need a wall.

[JustDan]

Whether you think Karius could've done more or not, it's just typical that one of the players of the season last year who was struggling to replicate his form this season manages to recapture some of the magic to score against us...

[JackWard33]

Don't understand why Moreno isn't seeing more gametime in games like these. He's not great defensively but at least he'll provide us with some width and he can whip a few balls across the 6 yard box.

Agree. He's really under rated  going forward. Milner and clyne were particularly bad last 20 ... lot of lofted panicky crosse

[sms1986]

Groundhog day, isn't it?

This team looks every inch the Liverpool team of the past 3-4 years - lots of promise, but completely lacking the required mental strength, prone to a complete meltdown against average sides and conceding for fun.

Nothing ever changes.

Yeah, because beating Dortmund (I include them as the team was fairly similar), Arsenal, Chelsea etc are all signs of lacking the required mental strength. The team we have this season is better than most we've had in the last few seasons. I've seen us play games this season in a way that even the team that finished second under Rodgers would have been impressed by.

[lessthanmatt]

Of course he did well to get anything on it, considering he was nearly touching his left-hand post when the ball was struck. Take a look at his starting position the moment Payet strikes the ball. It's extremely poor and amateur at best.

He's very slow to move over too. Most keepers who stand a crazy distance from the other post take a sidestep towards it as the player is running up to strike the ball

[killer-heels]

I think Klopp will have a very good idea what to do with the transfer window, I wouldn't be surprised if we do all of our business in the first week or so.

Hopefully.

[lachesis]

see below, rawk post being weird.

[sms1986]

If by all our business you mean none... I think people will be bitterly disappointed if they think we are making any first-team signings in January.

I personally don't expect us to sign anyone, but we don't know what Klopp and company are talking about behind the scenes.

[Caligula?]

You're ignoring the fact that his wall should've done far better.

You're ignoring the fact that he's supposed to be standing more centre of his goal. One foot to his right when Payet strikes it and he saves that, regardless of the wall.

[lachesis]

Mate, if anyone can put a ball in a yard gap between keeper and post from 30 odd yards............well, they'd have to have an iron leg swinging at the velocity of a planet. He doesn't deserve to be protected for that decision. And it makes it harder to give your argument credibility. The second one is certainly debatable but that isn't.

You see keeper's sometimes gaming penalty takers with a similar tactic. He's basically said to Payet, go on I've left a gap, now beat me. And he has, with not even a great strike. Not even in the corner.