Author Topic: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)  (Read 58618 times)

Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #320 on: December 11, 2016, 06:49:10 pm »
Like that left foot chipped effort that set-up Lallana against Arsenal, for example?

I mean, I'm obviously not going to get you to agree, but I think he's quality - he's like oil in a set of cogs, just keeps everything moving, smoothly and continuously. I loved him and Lallana in the second half, though ironically thought we missed Can a bit in the first - simply as our intensity dropped (as a team) when (as a player) his never seems to.

Everyone has their moments. Coates scored a wonder goal against QPR but I wouldn't call him technically above-average. I guess there's an argument for Gini being a cog and keeping everything ticking (whereby he gets slaughtered for "doing nothing" when we drop points, but praised when we win). He's defensively sound and makes good runs. He's a reliable player. On the ball he just doesn't impress me
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Offline Arcadian

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #321 on: December 11, 2016, 06:49:19 pm »
Guess you can't sustain that level of intensity over a season.  Especially with a thin squad.

Crazy to me how the squad went from pretty deep, at least IMHO, to thin with a few key injuries.
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Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #322 on: December 11, 2016, 06:49:53 pm »
Why didn't we bring on any subs? Clyne has a dreadful final ball and Milner's wasn't much better today so why not try TAA and Moreno for 20 minutes? We barely had any defending to do and going forward those two are as good as the two on the pitch if not better.

We brought on Klavan after half time.

Was Lovren injured or was it tactical?
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #323 on: December 11, 2016, 06:50:24 pm »
A point gained on the equivalent fixture last year.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #324 on: December 11, 2016, 06:50:36 pm »
We make so many errors and gift teams goals
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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #325 on: December 11, 2016, 06:50:45 pm »
Can you just judge him for his keeping skills first and foremost please?
Like we should judge Matip only on his tackling and heading, right? Like we judged Skrtel? On that basis Carragher would have been one of the best defenders in football history. The reason he wasn't is because footballers, ever more so and ever more so, have to be good at more than one thing.

And people are acting as if young 'keepers coming into a new side have never made mistakes before. Maybe there is an argument for him to be taken out of the 'firing line', so to speak, but isn't it fair that we at least do him the courtesy of pointing out what he actually does well?

And that punch against Carroll was a perfectly fine piece of goalkeeping, by the way.
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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #326 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:02 pm »
More dropped points unfortunately.


We're missing our Magician Coutinho. Either his world class ability on the ball or the amount of defenders he keeps busy so our other players can feed off that extra space.


It's still a point, not the end of the world. Hopefully Phil will be back soon.

Whilst that's true we shouldn't have to be scoring 3 goals (or 5 in the case of last week) all the time to win games. The much bigger problem is the plethora of completely avoidable goals that we gift to opposition teams week in, week out.
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #327 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:05 pm »
Lovren injured again? Seems to of been injured a fair bit this season.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #328 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:18 pm »
Would you have played Woodburn in this match? Im not sure he would have done much to be honest

Don't know what I would have done - possibly TAA or Moreno or both - Woodburn or ejaria for Firmino who wasn't on it and looked knackered
The thing is the data on subs is amazing; as you might expect intuitively it's a massive advantage to come on as a sub agaisnt tired opponents. Doesn't mean you always lose them but in a game like that when you're so on top but some of our players are obviously tiring it's an odd decision not to use them.
It's even more surprising Klopp seems to not like using subs generally because his style is so reliant on the press and expending energy.

Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #329 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:24 pm »
Crazy to me how the squad went from pretty deep, at least IMHO, to thin with a few key injuries.

Yeah I think it's just unfortunate with who is injured. Coutinho is our best attacking talent and he gets injured; Matip is our most immaculate defender but he was missing for the Bournemouth trip. Chelsea would struggle without Hazard and Costa in my opinion - just two injuries
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Offline sms1986

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #330 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:30 pm »
We brought on Klavan after half time.


Was Lovren injured or was it tactical?

Seems to have been a minor injury, he was sat on the bench after being taken off so it won't be anything serious.

Offline pyroparty

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #331 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:33 pm »
I think carra at half time pissed me off more than the result , he is really turning into a fucking clown of the highest order, sick to the teeth of him and rat boy.

Yep, he's awful, dunno if he's a frustrated fan or trying not to appear biased but he's like a vulture when one of our players makes a mistake. Shit like "Karius is killing the team" is horrific drivel. If some pundits had said Carra was killing the team when he was scoring OG's he'd have threatened to send lads round.

Offline red vinyl

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #332 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:38 pm »
That wall set up for Payets set piece was strange for me.
Such a long wall with many players and so Karius then stands other other side of it.
Sad thing is this meant he was almost standing on the far post making it impossible for him to get across to in my opinion an average paced side footer.

A better starting position and he would have got to it.
This is correct,he said basically put it anywhere that Side. If you do that to someone of his quality and dont have the correct starting position your doomed.

Offline Avens

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #333 on: December 11, 2016, 06:51:45 pm »
Fantastic to see everyone shitting themselves and helping to perpetuate the Karius myth. The agenda has been set, every time anything slightly questionable happens the commentators jump on board. There was a moment first half when he came out and got to the ball before the West Ham striker. Cech, Courtois, De Gea do that and they say "good goalkeeping". For Karius, they use it as a platform to criticise. Fans hear it, believe it and the nervousness around Karius continues and grows, then he can sense it, causing nervousness and the commentators say "there's a nervousness about Karius" and the cycle continues. He's really not that bad. If he'd got nowhere near that free kick, nobody would have said anything. It's only because he did well to get to it and having done that should have kept it out. Commentators always say how goalkeepers need to look after the side of the goal not protected by the wall - that's what he was doing. The second goal, was an unfortunate Matip mistake. Antonio hits it at him and people would talk about what a great decision it was to not come flying out. The best way to break this cycle of negativity is for the fans to support him and forget about what these utterly clueless commentators and pundits have to say.
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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #334 on: December 11, 2016, 06:52:14 pm »
Feels like we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

Offline redalways

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #335 on: December 11, 2016, 06:52:31 pm »
Klavan, Moreno, Lucas, Mignolet, Ejaria,Woodburn, Alexander-Arnold.

Thanks

Offline edge

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #336 on: December 11, 2016, 06:53:08 pm »
Start of 20 game unbeaten-run?

Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #337 on: December 11, 2016, 06:53:27 pm »
Would you have played Woodburn in this match? Im not sure he would have done much to be honest

It would have been madness to use Woodburn instead of one of Origi/Lallana/Mane/Firmino. In hindsight Firmino was terrible, but it would be a bold move to replace him with Woodburn
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #338 on: December 11, 2016, 06:53:31 pm »
Lovren injured again? Seems to of been injured a fair bit this season.
He seemed to get a kick in the eye when he tackled Antonio near the sideline, wonder if it was that.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #339 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:03 pm »
Indeed. Trent is far more adventurous, Don't get me wrong, Clyne is a wonderful 'steady eddie' but he offers little in attack.

Lack of adventure by Klopp in not giving one of the lads a go. We didn't give it everything for the win.
I think it's arguably his biggest weakness. He doesn't gamble in terms of his substitutions. Don't get me wrong, he's actually got a pretty solid record of subs coming on and scoring, but for me he kind of lets the game drift a bit, sometimes. It's almost like he gets too involved and forgets he's got options. We play a high energy game and we're going to tire at the end of games, it seems odd not to refresh that energy in the last 20 minutes, even if the team is, collecively, doing pretty well.
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Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #340 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:04 pm »
2 points dropped. Should have won fairly comfortable, like Arsenal did but our defence is just so error prone.
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Offline redalways

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #341 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:15 pm »
If theres one good thing that came out of today it is that Carroll had a shit game and I thank fuck that we sold the lanky c*nt. ;D

Offline Kekule

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #342 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:18 pm »
A disappointing day but not worthy of the overreaction (again) on here.

People had convinced themselves we were going to win the league and seemingly without any set backs along the way.  A couple of weeks later and the same ones seem to think we aren't even in with a shout of top 4. So many people incapable of handling minor disappointment, Christ knows what they're like in a real life crisis.

I would say there are too many drama queens in our support, but sadly a sizeable proportion of football fans in general are like that.

Offline il_principino

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #343 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:36 pm »
Can you just judge him for his keeping skills first and foremost please?

I for one dont believe they are bad. His punch in 2nd half to drive off carroll was good positional movement. Mistakes happen , but Karius is still an upgrade on Migs...any fucking day. #StickwithKarius
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Offline wige

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #344 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:42 pm »
He'd kept two clean sheets in a row before these two games though, hadn't he? Didn't we concede 5 in our first two with Mignolet in goal?

And no, it's not more important than releasing full-backs 50 metres from goal, because our whole entire system is built around intensity and pressure. Having Mignolet in goal is basically like having a pressure cooker where you take the lid off every five minutes. He can't do what Karius did in the second half, and I'm not convinced that many 'keepers can.

In terms of his goalkeeping though, there's also that punch against Carroll. He's decisive, and it takes a lot of fucking balls to come out for something like that after the first half he's had and the scrutiny he's under.

Having the balls to come back from mistakes is a defining feature of a top goalkeeper. That doesn't mean he will be one, necessarily, but I'm not sure it's something you can teach or learn and he has that in spades.

Oh, and he's only 22 isn't he? He's a baby as far as goalkeeping is concerned.

Really enjoy reading your posts mate.

Agree Karius had a good second half, and that for our style his on ball quality is important. 100% on board with the need to take age into account and give him time to develop as well.

Couldn't disagree more that number one has to be his ability to keep goal though, as in, stopping shots. He's cost us point in the last two games.

Think there's a decision to be made by Klopp about whether to take him out of the firing line for a bit though. Similar to the de gea rotation that's regularly referenced.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #345 on: December 11, 2016, 06:54:53 pm »
When it goes to 2-2 we have practically another 45 minutes to win the game, we just didn't do enough. At times Klopp subs last season were inspired, this season he's hesitant to make many. Our bench wasn't strong today but we did have an option or two on there. Feels like the title challenging is slipping away slightly and we've hit a little bump in the road. We've dropped five points against teams we should be doing better against, it means we can't afford any other slip ups against these kind of teams again and we need to show our qualities against the bigger teams, which we've done under Klopp.

Offline kingz

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #346 on: December 11, 2016, 06:55:24 pm »
Can't believe some say our squad is average or our defence is not good enough. We play the best football in the premier league and create the most chances. We scored 2 goals today and our defence was fine, West Ham had no clear cut chances!!!  but our Goalkeeper gifted them 2 goals, the first one his positioning was wrong, the second one he froze.

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #347 on: December 11, 2016, 06:55:26 pm »
If theres one good thing that came out of today it is that Carroll had a shit game and I thank fuck that we sold the lanky c*nt. ;D

 ;D

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #348 on: December 11, 2016, 06:56:33 pm »
Can't believe some say our squad is average or our defence is not good enough. We play the best football in the premier league and create the most chances. We scored 2 goals today and our defence was fine, West Ham had no clear cut chances!!!  but our Goalkeeper gifted them 2 goals, the first one his positioning was wrong, the second one he froze.

simply not true

Offline Marty 85

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #349 on: December 11, 2016, 06:56:35 pm »
All bar one corner failed to beat the last man, I'm pretty sure.

Wijnaldum is so technically unspectacular, it's painful. Average on the ball, good off it.

Really? What are you basing that on? His inability to curl the ball in with his shot? Did you not see his turn in the box to control the ball? He was very unfortunate not to get the shot off.

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #350 on: December 11, 2016, 06:56:57 pm »
I reckon they were on the Christmas party last night. Great start. Careless afterwards. Good effort getting back into it. The ref was poor and that lino was terrible.  Two or three times Carol is stood 5 yards off and not flagged. Maybe a pen or two not given. Ho hum. Least we didn't lose.
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #351 on: December 11, 2016, 06:56:59 pm »
This is correct,he said basically put it anywhere that Side. If you do that to someone of his quality and dont have the correct starting position your doomed.

I don't really understand why he's giving him a side to that extent at all - the free kick is nearly central and that far out the wall is far less effective. He could almost touch his post from his starting position

If anyone knows anything about goalkeeping please comment - I don't but it looked fucking stupid at the time

Offline dramared

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #352 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:02 pm »
I think it's arguably his biggest weakness. He doesn't gamble in terms of his substitutions. Don't get me wrong, he's actually got a pretty solid record of subs coming on and scoring, but for me he kind of lets the game drift a bit, sometimes. It's almost like he gets too involved and forgets he's got options. We play a high energy game and we're going to tire at the end of games, it seems odd not to refresh that energy in the last 20 minutes, even if the team is, collecively, doing pretty well.

I love Clyne but when park the bus teams are sat in it really means our full backs are the ones with the attacking space and responsibility.
He struggles and always looks unsure with his decisions and never puts a convincing final ball in or atleast not enough.

Offline plasterered

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #353 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:21 pm »
Question in my mind is will klopp change his man.

We have seen players get the chop mama, migs others in the summer.
I wonder what he will do genuinely. Stubbornness is a major flaw in most football managers when they stick by their man rightly or wrongly.

I think klopp is different but i think karius number 1 for at least the season

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #354 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:26 pm »
2 shite goals to concede, and missed that little extra moment of magic one of our injured players might have given us. Disappointing but no biggie. We still got this.

Offline Reese

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #355 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:32 pm »
Clyne is a monster, physically, and is an immensely reliable defender, but he is limited in attack, there's no doubt about it.

Our full-backs have been immensely reliable this season but I think they're weak links in our attack. Not massively so, mind, but they're just that bit slower on the ball (Milner mainly because his first instinct tends to be to cut in) and a bit less slick than the rest of the side. They're not bad, by any means, but they're don't add a lot.

Yeah, I don't think anyone would argue against Clyne's biggest weakness attribute is attacking, but his inability to cross is a fallacy. Just needs to keep them low to the ground like his peach to Origi last week. Besides, its all about trade offs. We saw that with Moreno too much. 

But criticism's like that or how Gini is technically deficient (and yes he needs to add goals) are just one of the reasons this place is horrid when things go south for a bit.

No one cares about the fullbacks when you are on a 15 game unbeaten streak, but boom, a loss and a draw people start looking for blame where it is isn't.

Our biggest issues are clearly 1. A Keeper and 2. An thin attack stifled by injuries.

People looking for smoke where it isn't.   


Offline hesbighesred

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #356 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:40 pm »
Don't know what I would have done - possibly TAA or Moreno or both - Woodburn or ejaria for Firmino who wasn't on it and looked knackered
The thing is the data on subs is amazing; as you might expect intuitively it's a massive advantage to come on as a sub agaisnt tired opponents. Doesn't mean you always lose them but in a game like that when you're so on top but some of our players are obviously tiring it's an odd decision not to use them.
It's even more surprising Klopp seems to not like using subs generally because his style is so reliant on the press and expending energy.
Hahahaha, you could have been dictating that post directly out of my brain.

Even more odd because Klopp hardly seems like the type to not know about, or to ignore, data like that. I mean, he doesn't strike me as data-driven in the way that Rafa perhaps was but he knows his onions when it comes to stuff like that, or at the very least pays attention to staff he's hired to do so.
Feels like we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
We are, but then again that's probably because we're a work in progress rather than the finished article, and we're not competing against weak opponents at the top. The run we had prior to these results would have seen us dominating the league last season. This season we're competing against deeper squads with deeper pockets with title winning experience who have stopped shooting themselves in the foot (well, bar City and Utd, anyway).
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline JustDan

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #357 on: December 11, 2016, 06:58:55 pm »
All bar one corner failed to beat the last man, I'm pretty sure.

Wijnaldum is so technically unspectacular, it's painful. Average on the ball, good off it.
Well, at least you have 1 good point... that's better than a lot of the posters on here ;D

We are consistently shit at corners, at both ends.. some things never change I guess.

Offline Arcadian

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #358 on: December 11, 2016, 06:59:19 pm »
Fantastic to see everyone shitting themselves and helping to perpetuate the Karius myth. The agenda has been set, every time anything slightly questionable happens the commentators jump on board. There was a moment first half when he came out and got to the ball before the West Ham striker. Cech, Courtois, De Gea do that and they say "good goalkeeping". For Karius, they use it as a platform to criticise. Fans hear it, believe it and the nervousness around Karius continues and grows, then he can sense it, causing nervousness and the commentators say "there's a nervousness about Karius" and the cycle continues. He's really not that bad. If he'd got nowhere near that free kick, nobody would have said anything. It's only because he did well to get to it and having done that should have kept it out. Commentators always say how goalkeepers need to look after the side of the goal not protected by the wall - that's what he was doing. The second goal, was an unfortunate Matip mistake. Antonio hits it at him and people would talk about what a great decision it was to not come flying out. The best way to break this cycle of negativity is for the fans to support him and forget about what these utterly clueless commentators and pundits have to say.

Ok. Thing is Payet put that several feet from the corner. The wall seemed to unsight Karius and his starting position left him too much ground to cover. You can't just concede that the wall will stop the ball...  you have to give yourself the chance of making it over to that side to cover it.
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Offline CallumLFC

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Re: FULL TIME LFC 2 - West Ham 2 (Lallana '4, Payet '27, Antonio '38, Origi '47)
« Reply #359 on: December 11, 2016, 06:59:28 pm »
Yep, he's awful, dunno if he's a frustrated fan or trying not to appear biased but he's like a vulture when one of our players makes a mistake. Shit like "Karius is killing the team" is horrific drivel. If some pundits had said Carra was killing the team when he was scoring OG's he'd have threatened to send lads round.

He's cost us 4-5 points in our last two games. Killing the team isn't far off.

A poor keeper can weigh any team down. However good they are.