Topic: Ben Woodburn.

[vivabobbygraham]

ok mate



I guess the people slating Sterling here are the same ones that said we didn't need to buy a replacement as we had someone better in Ibe?

Not at all and using the terminology 'slating' is crass and stupid, mate. I'm not slating Raheem so fuck right off on that. Someone put Sterling ahead of Woodburn in his development and I countered it is all and yes, I did have high hopes for Ibe so what the fuck do I know!

I believe it's wrong and counter productive to compare players so I'll back off save to say Ben Woodburn is a prodigious talent and we should all savour his talent in the hope that he stays with us for many years to develop into one of our very best players

Regarding the clip above that just confirms my opinion he has gone backwards since leaving Liverpool

[groove]

I'm firmly in the 'Sterling is excellent and is a big loss for us' camp but you can't use the one time he struck a ball really cleanly from range for us as evidence that that kinda stuff isn't clearly the weakest part of his game. We had plenty of evidence that it was.

[SlowRap]

Not at all and using the terminology 'slating' is crass and stupid, mate. I'm not slating Raheem so fuck right off on that.

You must've missed the bit where I quoted lamonti but if the shoe fits

[lionel_messias]

Ben is ahead of Sterling in his development. Streets ahead. Pace is one thing but you need balance, composure and technique to supplement it. Sterling does not have Ben's goal today in his locker. He would have scuffed it weakly to the keeper on his left peg, undoubtedly. He might have gone round the defender like Ben but then his head would have fallen off. This kid of ours has all the above in abundance and will only improve and develop into World class, no doubt in my mind. Sterling has hit his ceiling. He will not improve. In fact, he was better at Liverpool than he is now.

I'm not expert on football but this cannot be true. I seem to remember Raheem Sterling being thought of as one of the best talents in English football at 18, which is why we took a punt on him before he was 17.

You can say Woodburn is a very good talent though, clearly Klopp has identified this and so is giving him game time to develop. Seems Woodburn has composure, a good shot and a good range of passing skills. If he combine this with the mental strength it takes to play for Liverpool, initially in 10-25 minute bursts you'd think, then perhaps we've a gem on our hands.

Age-old problem though, a Liverpool manager needs results and cannot throw kids in too much.

[vivabobbygraham]

You must've missed the bit where I quoted lamonti but if the shoe fits

The shoe fits what?

I get it you think the sun shines out of Raheem's arse. There is another view that he has regressed which you haven't commented on, I see? Ben has the alertness, technique and, more importantly, the willingness to learn in order to turn into a top drawer player. Let's hope he has the maturity to see past the short term riches that will bring and find himself a decent agent who gives a fuck about him

[CraigDS]

The shoe fits what?

The right sized foot?

[vivabobbygraham]

The right sized foot?

A size nine and I know where I'd like to put it!

[El Lobo]

Sterlings gonna have an awesome season btw

[CraigDS]

A size nine and I know where I'd like to put it!

Inside a shoe that fits?

[vivabobbygraham]

Sterlings gonna have an awesome season btw

He'll spend half of it on the bench then his agent will be looking for the next payday. Meanwhile, a real talent wastes away

[El Lobo]

He'll spend half of it on the bench then his agent will be looking for the next payday. Meanwhile, a real talent wastes away

Nah I think he'll be pretty regular.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

Nah I think he'll be pretty regular.

Guardiola will rotate for sure, I imagine that Sterling will be in the 30-35 game bracket this season, including subs. But that's with the current squad as it is, they may still add the likes of Sanchez to the squad. With De Bruyne, the Silvas, and Sane in the same slots, there's a lot of competition already. I imagine he would play less compared to last year barring injuries to the other players on the squad.

[Redcap]

I can actually see a world in which Sterling comes back to us, if he doesn't have a good season. He's very, very good for our system, in the same way Salah and Mané are. He just needs to improve his finishing and he'll be tremendous. It's a massively long shot, but I wouldn't mind having him back at all.

Re: Woodburn, I think the thing that's going to help him in the next couple of years is he's reasonably versatile. There'll be some games where he can come on at CM and other games where he can come on at LW or FW. He's intelligent enough, and has the right skill set to do all of the above reasonably competently. The hope will be that we'll blow a few teams away in the first half, and have the chance to bring him on the wreak havoc in the second half, similarly to how Pulisic was used 2 seasons ago by Dortmund. Hopefully he'll be able to make an impact from those opportunities, by which I mean score and/or assist. It's one thing to come on and look neat and tidy and 'not out of place', but it's quite another for him to be doing damage. That's the thing you'd be looking for in a young player. I'm hopeful Woodburn can have that effect by mid-late this season.

[Dench57]

I can actually see a world in which Sterling comes back to us, if he doesn't have a good season.

And we would tell him to get fucked.

[Shaved Crossbar]

ok mate



I guess the people slating Sterling here are the same ones that said we didn't need to buy a replacement as we had someone better in Ibe?

I'm a big fan of Sterling as a player, and generally don't get involved with people who chat shit about him on here, but what's funny is that goal in the gif was actually deflected.

[Eliit]

I guess the people slating Sterling here are the same ones that said we didn't need to buy a replacement as we had someone better in Ibe?

Sorry to deviate this threads discussion ever further away from Woodburn, but I still can't believe that people actually thought Ibe was anywhere near as good as Sterling. As someone who used to watch youth games pretty regularly, Ibe didn't have much other than pace and power, neither of which he implemented very well. When he had his early game for first team against everton as a wing-back, I was very surprised but unfortunately it was flash in the pan.

Woodburn on the other hand seems to be very good talent for me, and along with Trent is the best talent in the academy since Sterling. At the moment I wish he'd show a bit more arrogance and take game onto his own hands because he has the ability (I thought the same with Suso) but he's still 17 and there's plenty of time for that. There's also big question of which position suits him the best. Personally I'd like to see him get a role behind the striker, where he can both drop deep and build up the play, but also get in the box a lot, but we don't seem to have this role in the team at the moment.

[Djimi Smicer34]

And we would tell him to get fucked.

I wouldn't.

I didn't like the manner in which he went about leaving and think he was very badly advised.  But if the opportunity came up to get him back, I'd jump at it because I think Klopp would really take him to another level as player.  Not that I think it will ever happen though.

[Shaved Crossbar]

I think Woodburn is just about ready to make regular appearances. I don't think the strength or experience of the opposition really matters as much as his ability to play on the same wavelength as our senior players. He did it in preseason with flying colours, but the PL will be another step up in speed and intensity. I think he struggled with it last season, most evident in his start at Stoke where he and TAA were maybe step or two behind the rest. I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do now. He's incredibly talented and, for my money, a better all-round prospect than Sterling. The latter's pace, dribbling, and spatial awareness are exceptional, but his passing, crossing, shooting, and finishing have been pretty poor since he started playing in the PL. Woodburn will never have Sterling's pace or dribbling skill, but I think he can probably develop the other attributes to a much higher standard.

Honestly him and Trent were two of the better players that day, and they were let down by a lot of the players around them. Woodburn looked a bit toothless but had no service because him and Divock were so isolated and the midfield was shocking. On the ball he was composed and pretty good, his movement was decent too. I guess part of the game is making yourself involved, but it was a system failure more than a Woodburn failure, because Origi was much worse. 

As for actual dribbling 'skill', he's already on a par or better than Sterling. Sterling is definitely a better dribbler because of his pace and acceleration, but Woodburn uses feints, dummies, 'hesitation-moves' (to steal a word from basketball) and dragbacks better than I've seen Raheem do.

[penga]

Honestly him and Trent were two of the better players that day, and they were let down by a lot of the players around them. Woodburn looked a bit toothless but had no service because him and Divock were so isolated and the midfield was shocking. On the ball he was composed and pretty good, his movement was decent too. I guess part of the game is making yourself involved, but it was a system failure more than a Woodburn failure, because Origi was much worse. 

As for actual dribbling 'skill', he's already on a par or better than Sterling. Sterling is definitely a better dribbler because of his pace and acceleration, but Woodburn uses feints, dummies, 'hesitation-moves' (to steal a word from basketball) and dragbacks better than I've seen Raheem do.

Thing that sets Sterling apart is indeed pace and acceleration but his dribbling skill I would also class above Woodburn. Remember the step overs and burning someone which Woody doesn't seem to be able to do, also the close control style dribbling at pace where Raheem can ghost past multiple opponents e.g. vs Spurs when he went past 4 of them in a tight space then scuffed the easy shot. Finishing and shooting Woodburn wins easily but Sterling has good movement and positioning which is what got him goals at the top level. Both are tenacious and strong for their size and both are pretty good passers.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

To be honest, I think Woodburn is a completely different type of player compared to Sterling. You will never see Woodburn beat anyone with pace, but he holds the ball up well and has a great football sense about him. Sterling is a lot more tactically aware then most people give him credit for, but he's a winger, whereas I think with Woodburn he's more suited to be an attacking midfielder because of his physical limitations.

I think that's why Klopp is giving him an education in MF at the moment. I believe he's trying to groom him as a player in the same mould as Coutinho. And I think he's intelligent enough to do it.

[newterp]

It will also be interesting to see how Woodburn progressing physcially - he may be done growing, but he certainly can get stronger and maybe even a bit faster with the training. Couple of simple things that coupled with his football brain could make a significant difference.

[wemmick]

Honestly him and Trent were two of the better players that day, and they were let down by a lot of the players around them. Woodburn looked a bit toothless but had no service because him and Divock were so isolated and the midfield was shocking. On the ball he was composed and pretty good, his movement was decent too. I guess part of the game is making yourself involved, but it was a system failure more than a Woodburn failure, because Origi was much worse. 

As for actual dribbling 'skill', he's already on a par or better than Sterling. Sterling is definitely a better dribbler because of his pace and acceleration, but Woodburn uses feints, dummies, 'hesitation-moves' (to steal a word from basketball) and dragbacks better than I've seen Raheem do.

Those are good points, mate. And to be honest, I thought Woodburn and TAA played pretty well as individuals, but as part of the team they just didn't quite click with the seniors that day. The moment Firmino and Coutinho came on the whole team clicked into gear. (As a brief aside, I would apply the same argument to Origi. He often seems to be playing at wavelength that is a step or two slower than the seniors in our system.)  I also agree that Woodburn is very good on the ball, especially in tight spaces. More than anything this makes me think he has a big future as a midfielder. Woodburn might not beat a 3-v-1 trap on the wings, like Sterling can, but he might develop skills that are similar to Coutinho. You know, great players that can't really be dispossessed.   

Edit: Ha. You beat me to it, Bend It Like Aurelio.

[xbugawugax]

wow.

just wow.

the amount of revisionism here is amazing. No doubt Woodburn is good but honestly he still have a way to go to even be at Sterling's level and be an EPL regular. We don't even know his final position yet. He played as forward in the youth and currently is being played further back as link between midfield and attack under klopp.

Sterling at his age was already almost a top tier player. Pace in abundance, great balance and skill and good technically. Only weakness was his finishing and final product which was understandable since he is still young and inexperienced. Love the body language experts analysing his disinterested form from a short clip of him with pep.

The downplaying of Sterling ability just sounds bitter. He did leave us on a bad not but he is still a good player on his day.

[penga]

wow.

just wow.

the amount of revisionism here is amazing. No doubt Woodburn is good but honestly he still have a way to go to even be at Sterling's level and be an EPL regular. We don't even know his final position yet. He played as forward in the youth and currently is being played further back as link between midfield and attack under klopp.

Sterling at his age was already almost a top tier player. Pace in abundance, great balance and skill and good technically. Only weakness was his finishing and final product which was understandable since he is still young and inexperienced. Love the body language experts analysing his disinterested form from a short clip of him with pep.

The downplaying of Sterling ability just sounds bitter. He did leave us on a bad not but he is still a good player on his day.

As much as I hate to say it I agree. This was Raheem at his best there is a long way to go before Woodburn can be as effective as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut5JInKAW1Y

Aside from general wing play, you see many intelligent runs in behind, intelligent passes, the ability to receive the ball in midfield then turn sharply and just drive straight through the opposition midfield, unrelenting tenacity fighting off the likes of bigger blokes like Moussa Dembele.

However Raheem hasn't hit those height again since that season but is sort of back on his way now, was still playing at a decent level though. He would be great under Klopp but unfortunately snaked it out.

[7777]

Just had a look at when he made the breakthrough and he was 17

'Since Brendan Rodgers took over as boss at Liverpool Sterling became a vital player in the starting line-up and his rapid progress earned him a call-up to the England u-21's In October and on 14 November 2012, at 17 years and 332 days, he became the fifth-youngest England player when making his debut against Sweden in Stockholm. Sterling signed a new and long-term five-year contract with Liverpool just before Christmas 2012. Sterling appeared in thirty-six of the club's fifty-four competitive matches in 2012/13'

http://www.lfchistory.net/players/player/profile/1237

[NaivetyinBlack]

Raheem at 17 was a prodigy. Remember the U18 game against Southend ? The FAYC game against Mancs ? A lot of other high profile games ? His debut ? There wasn't a player in youth teams across England that could touch his level, let alone match it.

Ben is a fantastic talen too, but let's not get too ahead of ourselves. I love the fact this he is technically superior to all current LFC youngsters. He is positionally astute as well, and Klopp is looking to utilize that by playing him in the midfield to develop his other skillsets. He is far away from a regular starter though. He needs to beat a man. Either by stepover / dribbles or sheer pace. He also needs to figure out how to play on the shoulder of the last defender ( won't be an issue if his proper position is an AM ).

And that is where I am a bit wary of heaping the Sterling level praise on Ben. Raheem knew at 17 he was an inside forward. With the skills to match. Kenny knew it first time he saw him. So did Brendan. All he needed was working to enhance those skills. Ben is still figuring out where he will be most productive. I'd be a lot more excited, once he settles down on a perfect position to play in. In any case, he is a prodigious talent and I can't wait to see where Ljinders and Klopp take him from here.

[IanZG]

If I'm not mistaken, in age terms this season for Woodburn will be equivalent to Sterling's breakthrough season when we finished 2nd, right? Hopefully we manage to give him enough games while keeping him out of the spotlight. The way Solanke impressed this preaseason will be good for him, much less pressure on him to instantly produce.

[Chris~]

If I'm not mistaken, in age terms this season for Woodburn will be equivalent to Sterling's breakthrough season when we finished 2nd, right? Hopefully we manage to give him enough games while keeping him out of the spotlight. The way Solanke impressed this preaseason will be good for him, much less pressure on him to instantly produce.

No equivalent of Rodgers' first season.

[plura]

I'm a big fan of Sterling as a player, and generally don't get involved with people who chat shit about him on here, but what's funny is that goal in the gif was actually deflected.

It was, you're right. But still it had a lot of power that the deflection couldn't really stop it. Which is kinda impressive. Obviously not sure where it would have ended up at if it hadn't been deflected.

[Moos]

I have enjoyed watching Sterling in a red shirt. I hope I can say the same about Woodburn for years to come. Damn, the kid was five when we last won the CL.

[IanZG]

No equivalent of Rodgers' first season.

You're right, my mistake

[Kopenhagen]

I'm a big fan of Sterling as a player, and generally don't get involved with people who chat shit about him on here, but what's funny is that goal in the gif was actually deflected.

He was incredible in that game, absolutely incredible.

[wige]

And we would tell him to get fucked.

That would be very, very silly in my opinion

I kinda agree that he hasn't really pushed on since he joined City, and he still needs to be more consistent when striking a ball to shoot. Just a brilliant player already though. Quick and intelligent, strong as an Ox on the ball, unselfish, able to beat 1 or 2 men, tactically flexible. If he was available and wanted to come back I'd be all over it. Imagine having Mane, Salah and Sterling as wide forward options? He could cover the AMC role too. Plus right wing back

Back on topic to Woodburn - I think we'll see him get between 15-25 appearances this season, depending on how he performs when he gets his chances. All the league Cup games - lets take a negative approach and say 3 full 90 minutes. FA Cup, the same, another 3, leaving him between 9 and 19 across: the weaker teams, let's say there are 10 fixtures for him there, games that have already been put to bed, 6? another 10? Then, if he's performed in the chances he's got, maybe he gets a legitimate shot as a rotation option at home against a bottom 12 team, say Stoke. 2/3 here chances here, say, dependent on form.

Yes, the above is all speculation and hypotheticals, but I think the boy has shown some glimpses of top talent. The finish against Bilbao was excellent. First team worthy for sure. Sturridge puts that in, we're all saying it's because he's the best finisher at the club. His awareness, movement, eye for a pass have also stood out. On the flip side, he's at times been careless with his distribution as well as being caught on the ball.

[Garnier]

Ben Woodburn is for his age very mature footballing wise, but make no mistake Raheem Sterling is an intelligent player, at least he was for us. I remember Brendan going on and on about how smart Raheem was - this is a kid who was at 19 trusted to start as the apex of a diamond away at Old Trafford. Shame he left but he was replaceable unlike Suarez or Gerrard.

If our welsh youngster matches Sterling's quality for us then he's done very well - maybe he could be the one to fill the hole to be left once Lallana gets on the wrong side of 30

[didi shamone]

Potential is just that. Sterling was really good when he broke through and has neither progressed or regressed since we sold him. Woodburn has a lot to do to come close to that level but if he does he might continue to develop. Pointless comparing the two( even though i have) . You'd be one of the richest people alive if you could predict what level young players would reach.

[Redcap]

I think it's premature to compare Woodburn and Sterling because Woodburn hasn't had a first season with the club yet. He played about.. 180 minutes all up last season? That's not enough to really see how far along he is. At the end of this season we can have some data to compare - if all goes well for him, he'll have a similar number of performances as Sterling in 12/13. Of course, with the strength of the players ahead of him, he'd probably have to play some pretty outstanding stuff to get that many performances.

[istvan kozma]

Why the fuck are people rambling about that shit house Sterling in the Ben Woodburn thread?

[joekim87]

Why the fuck are people rambling about that shit house Sterling in the Ben Woodburn thread?

Because all the haters are the actual ones who miss him the most and just want others to praise him. In some sort of f*cked up self loathing masochistic self burn. [I have no idea what I just wrote].

[ThePeetmix]

Really hope he can take his opportunities this season. As with the other youngsters. We've been missing youth talent coming through the last few years because we're not going to be like Man City and have a massive squad of expensive players.

It was a big part of us winning trophies in the past and it's something we need to get back to.

As good as Woodburn is now, imagine in 2-3 years time how good he'll be if he keeps getting good exposure to first team football.

[vivabobbygraham]

Nah I think he'll be pretty regular.

Fucking hope so for his sake. Otherwise.....