Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[NaivetyinBlack]

Obviously you can't.

People were saying the exact same things they are saying now all last season and the start of this season. We needed a better left back than Moreno. We needed a better back up CB than Klavan. We needed a better starter than Lovren. None of this is knee jerk in the slightest.

Also, this whole it was the game after international break excuse needs to be fucked off.

We had 2 months to build a squad depth. We didn't.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I agreed with the broader point that Rich made. Then I expanded and explained in many posts. If you understood logic you'd see that I explained my opinion on the matter, going further than one player or one club even. So if you were following my logic you'd see precisely what I meant. But when you cherry pick to score points then I suppose that is what happens.

If you don't have a problem with players not being able to play due to being a bit tired or not 100 percent then maybe we care about the game on different levels. And the more you try and patronise me with the 'got it?' stuff, the more you cheer me up after a miserable result. So nice one.

If you dont agree with Rich calling one of players a shithouse then if I was in your shoes I would have made that clear. You didnt. So all I had to go on was the fact you agree with Rich.
When you make a shit allegation that I have put words in your mouth I want it fully explained that I haven't and that thinking you agree Lovren was a shithouse was quite a natural conclusion.

So where has someone suggested you are a shithouse?

As for players not playing unless 100% fit. This is something that managers decide. If Klopp thinks Lovren isnt fit enough to start the game then thats on Klopp. Its a squad game now, to compete you need to fully use the squad. Its got nothing to do with being lazy or anything, its to do with maintaining a winning edge. We have only one player so far who's refused to play, I suggest you keep your ire for him.

Anyway. Why have you not had a go at Mignolet for missing the Arsenal game?

[redhokie8]

We're generally decent from open play defensively, but today there were holes all over the place. The adjustment at half time was quite poor in hindsight. Having Can drop into a back 5 when we didn't have the ball didn't work particularly well. Honestly if Lovren was anywhere near fit he should've been brought on at half time. Gone 4-4-1. So

               Sturridge
Salah Henderson Can Milner
Moreno Lovren Matip Trent

Studge, Salah, and Moreno would've given us a threat going down the left. Sturridge would been able to hold the ball up and use space in behind to get the into Salah. Milner would've given Trent more cover, and Lovren would've been much more stable than Klavan.

[istvan kozma]

Also, this whole it was the game after international break excuse needs to be fucked off.

We had 2 months to build a squad depth. We didn't.

We did.

[Eeyore]

so we lost to the best attacking side in the league after going down to 10 men and we let in a bunch of goals after switching to a makeshift formation to try and get us back in the game. Yeah, forget about the 7 clean sheets in the previous 9 league games then 

Firstly given the amount of goals we concede if we are going to compete then surely we simply HAVE to be the best attacking side in the League.

Secondly what has a makeshift formation got to do with Klavan being five yards behind the rest of the defence for the first or both Silva and Jesus being totally unmarked in the centre of the six yard box for the second.

Thirdly look at the form of the teams we played in those 9 games.

[NaivetyinBlack]

We did.

The topic of discussion was Lovren's absence due to international break.

If we had depth, Klavan would be nowhere near the first team.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

The topic of discussion was Lovren's absence due to international break.

If we had depth, Klavan would be nowhere near the first team.

Carrying 4 CB's, plus perhaps 1 or 2 youth players who are competent, should be enough depth. But depth is not the issue here, the issue is whether or not Klavan is good enough to play for Liverpool, period.

And to be honest, I find it really hard to accept that he's of the required quality. He does have huge issues with the speed of the game in the PL it looks like.

[Eeyore]

We have strengthened the side. You're upset and hysterical after a shit result. But beyond that, what's the excuse? We've strengthened the midfield by signing Salah because it means that Couts can drop back in. Robertson adds depth and Solanke has moved ahead of Origi - who has a callback clause. Chamberlain adds depth, too. He'll start left-wing after Mane's red.

Absolute bollocks mate.

Look at the bench we had for games at the turn of the year it was embarrassing. We were short of numbers without having to contend with the Champions League in January.

It may turn out that we have slightly increased the quality of the players at our disposal, on the other hand it may not.

What is beyond debate is that we haven't addressed the problem of our lack of numbers. Without European football last season we ended up with benches that resembled a kindergarten. 

[Fiasco]

If you dont agree with Rich calling one of players a shithouse then if I was in your shoes I would have made that clear. You didnt. So all I had to go on was the fact you agree with Rich.
When you make a shit allegation that I have put words in your mouth I want it fully explained that I haven't and that thinking you agree Lovren was a shithouse was quite a natural conclusion.

So where has someone suggested you are a shithouse?

As for players not playing unless 100% fit. This is something that managers decide. If Klopp thinks Lovren isnt fit enough to start the game then thats on Klopp. Its a squad game now, to compete you need to fully use the squad. Its got nothing to do with being lazy or anything, its to do with maintaining a winning edge. We have only one player so far who's refused to play, I suggest you keep your ire for him.

Anyway. Why have you not had a go at Mignolet for missing the Arsenal game?

This is going in circles because you are hellbent on point scoring. Rich said he shit out, I expanded on the point he made because I had feelings that were in the same ballpark. I didn't say he shit out or call him a shithouse in such terms, I went on to explain how I thought in this day and age it is amazing with the money involved players are missing games due to tiredness and so on. I find it astonishing, but there we are.

If I wanted to call Lovren a shithouse I would have explicitly said it, wrongly or rightly. It might have got me banned, but if I felt it I would have said it. I didn't, because that isn't what I said, I expanded on a broader point that he 'shit out', but for some reason you ignored the many posts afterwards where I clarified what I was saying. Funny, that. It isn't my fault you can't follow my points thereafter I replied to something that was *similar* to what I was making.

Mignolet, missing the Arsenal game? Depending on what you want to follow then there is more than one explanation for that. So that is a different argument.

Very rarely is a player 100 percent fit. Some are simply tougher than others. And before you get precious thinking I've questioned Lovren's toughness, I haven't. That is just the way it is these days.

[AaronSingh25]

It's an issue with the players, but there's also a tactical issue at times. Was Lovren injured today?

[Eeyore]

Carrying 4 CB's, plus perhaps 1 or 2 youth players who are competent, should be enough depth. But depth is not the issue here, the issue is whether or not Klavan is good enough to play for Liverpool, period.

And to be honest, I find it really hard to accept that he's of the required quality. He does have huge issues with the speed of the game in the PL it looks like.

The thing is Klavan is 32 next month.

When you think about it how many centre backs have been good enough to play for the top sides at that age in the Premier League.

[AaronSingh25]

Horrendous we didn't buy a central defender.

Whatever went on this summer, it's nothing but a disgrace from all sides. Either Klopp took on FSG by demanding his first choice targets and not second (most likely cheaper) alternatives - an issue which has haunted the club ever since FSG became owners. Did he try to call their bluff and demand his first choice, playing a game of risk with his owners, not believing they wouldn't go through with it by not signing VVD? Rodgers accepted cheaper options like Mario back in the day (and we all know how that ended) - either way Klopp lost out on the issue.

Edwards and co will always be safe, not spending money is always going to look good to owners who aren't exactly ambitious. The can will always land on the manager. So he either does 'a Raffa' and expose the situation going on, either through himself or through journalists or just accepts his fate. 

The alternative option would be Klopp was naive in the extreme believing in these set of central defenders, two of whom are injury prone. I don't want to believe in this option.

[istvan kozma]

Absolute bollocks mate.

Look at the bench we had for games at the turn of the year it was embarrassing. We were short of numbers without having to contend with the Champions League in January.

It may turn out that we have slightly increased the quality of the players at our disposal, on the other hand it may not.

What is beyond debate is that we haven't addressed the problem of our lack of numbers. Without European football last season we ended up with benches that resembled a kindergarten.

....Which is exactly your point about the squad not being stronger, going by your logic City didn't Strengthen their squad because they allowed 4 fullbacks to leave and only brought in 3.

[stevensr123]

....Which is exactly your point about the squad not being stronger, going by your logic City didn't Strengthen their squad because they allowed 4 fullbacks to leave and only brought in 3.

we start with klavan, Moreno and mignolet in just the 4th game of the season and you think we have strenghtend? Laughable really.

That back line isn't good enough for Everton, never mind Liverpool.

[Kenny's Jacket]

This is going in circles because you are hellbent on point scoring. Rich said he shit out, I expanded on the point he made because I had feelings that were in the same ballpark. I didn't say he shit out or call him a shithouse in such terms, I went on to explain how I thought in this day and age it is amazing with the money involved players are missing games due to tiredness and so on. I find it astonishing, but there we are.

If I wanted to call Lovren a shithouse I would have explicitly said it, wrongly or rightly. It might have got me banned, but if I felt it I would have said it. I didn't, because that isn't what I said, I expanded on a broader point that he 'shit out', but for some reason you ignored the many posts afterwards where I clarified what I was saying. Funny, that. It isn't my fault you can't follow my points thereafter I replied to something that was *similar* to what I was making.

Mignolet, missing the Arsenal game? Depending on what you want to follow then there is more than one explanation for that. So that is a different argument.

Very rarely is a player 100 percent fit. Some are simply tougher than others. And before you get precious thinking I've questioned Lovren's toughness, I haven't. That is just the way it is these days.

Im not trying to point score. Im just looking for evidence that we should be having a go at Lovren. From what we know Klopp thought a fresh Klaven was a better option than a jaded Lovren. Know I understand, although I dont agree about your take on the modern day footballer.  However its the managers decision. Im pretty sure Lovren hasnt refued to play.  So the decision is with the manager. 
That the reason I understand but dont agree with your assesment of modern day players. Its the managerial team who make the decisions on if we are better with a jaded Lovren or a fully fit Klaven

We have no evidence what so ever that this was like the time Gerrard had to persuade Sturridge to play and he ended up getting the winner,

Klopp thought last week that a fresh Kariu was better than a jaded Mig. A decision you have not complained about as far as I know.

Anyway enjoy the rest of your night and heres to getting back to wininng ways in midweek. 

[istvan kozma]

we start with klavan, Moreno and mignolet in just the 4th game of the season and you think we have strenghtend? Laughable really.

That back line isn't good enough for Everton, never mind Liverpool.

Yep, anybody who doesn't think the squad is stronger than last season is clueless.

[Eeyore]

....Which is exactly your point about the squad not being stronger, going by your logic City didn't Strengthen their squad because they allowed 4 fullbacks to leave and only brought in 3.

City had Champions League football last season and have a massive squad. Probably the deepest squad in European football.

On the other hand in the only period we played twice a week last season we ended up with benches that looked like a boyband,

[SerbianScouser]

Yep, anybody who doesn't think the squad is stronger than last season is clueless.

Our bench today was Gomez, Lovren, Ox, Milner, Sturridge, Solanke with Phil, Lallana, Clyne and Robertson in the stands. This is our best squad since 07/08 imo.

[Eeyore]

Yep, anybody who doesn't think the squad is stronger than last season is clueless.

We showed our strength today when we ended up with Can as the middle centre back. Last season we could of dropped in Lucas or Stewart this season we move Can to the centre of defence.

[stevensr123]

Yep, anybody who doesn't think the squad is stronger than last season is clueless.

overall squad yes, defence> fucking no chance, if you believe that mate keep your head in the stand.

Mignolet still first choice, Moreno still first choice, lovren still first choice, klavan still 2nd choice.


These are players that have proven themselves to not be good enough for the last 4 years. And we are still picking them.

[Eeyore]

Our bench today was Gomez, Lovren, Ox, Milner, Sturridge, Solanke with Phil, Lallana, Clyne and Robertson in the stands. This is our best squad since 07/08 imo.

Only because we had TAA, Klavan and Moreno starting !!!

With a completely unbalanced midfield of Hendo, Can and Gini.

[Fiasco]

Im not trying to point score. Im just looking for evidence that we should be having a go at Lovren. From what we know Klopp thought a fresh Klaven was a better option than a jaded Lovren. Know I understand, although I dont agree about your take on the modern day footballer.  However its the managers decision. Im pretty sure Lovren hasnt refued to play.  So the decision is with the manager. 
That the reason I understand but dont agree with your assesment of modern day players. Its the managerial team who make the decisions on if we are better with a jaded Lovren or a fully fit Klaven

We have no evidence what so ever that this was like the time Gerrard had to persuade Sturridge to play and he ended up getting the winner,

Klopp thought last week that a fresh Kariu was better than a jaded Mig. A decision you have not complained about as far as I know.

Anyway enjoy the rest of your night and heres to getting back to wininng ways in midweek. 

I thought the idea to play Karius was to get him some competitive football as he is set to be our European goalie this year? That's what I had in my mind.


We can only go on what we see, and that isn't a lot. Admittedly, it is speculation. It confuses me that Klopp, who indeed picks the team, thought he was fit enough to play from the bench if needed, just not to start. That's where I find it all strange. Had Lovren played then we might have still conceded 5, but he wouldn't have hid on the pitch. That is his downfall at times, so he was needed in that regard. So if he was so injured, don't put him on the bench. It just sticks in my craw a little bit.

Same to you mate, let's hope we get back to winning ways. Football is shit sometimes, but it'll be good again soon 

[redhokie8]

For this season, or at least until January, not buying a Centerback was a gamble. If Klopp is looking long term and is that confident that buying the right players is what will get us over the line and ultimately win us the title than so be it. These are the kinds of decision you live and die by as a manager. I like the idea of having a clear direction and clear ideas.

I would say, like many people have mentioned. I think we could've bought a center back that we think had some potential and would be an upgrade on Klavan. Long term vision is great, but many managers struggle to get to that point when they sacrifice too much in the short term. Like I said these are the decisions you live and die by as a manager. I have faith in Klopp even if I don't agree with the decision not to buy. I won't be surprised if we get a centerback in January.

[SerbianScouser]

Only because we had TAA, Klavan and Moreno starting !!!

With a completely unbalanced midfield of Hendo, Can and Gini.

It wouldn't have mattered if we didn't get a red card. We would have given them one hell of a game otherwise.

[Suareznumber7]

Firstly given the amount of goals we concede if we are going to compete then surely we simply HAVE to be the best attacking side in the League.

Secondly what has a makeshift formation got to do with Klavan being five yards behind the rest of the defence for the first or both Silva and Jesus being totally unmarked in the centre of the six yard box for the second.

Thirdly look at the form of the teams we played in those 9 games.

Well, we're not the best attacking side in the league although we are pretty close.

Why aren't you mentioning Matip's positioning and non movement/reaction to the giveaway that led to the first goal?  You tell me where the midfielders were on that 2nd goal because I have deleted the game and can't go back and look.  Nothing to do with our "defenders" though as they were all in the right positions. 

The form of the teams in those 9 games doesn't matter.  What matters is that we kept 7 clean sheets. 

[Suareznumber7]

The topic of discussion was Lovren's absence due to international break.

If we had depth, Klavan would be nowhere near the first team.

Nonsense.

[istvan kozma]

We showed our strength today when we ended up with Can as the middle centre back. Last season we could of dropped in Lucas or Stewart this season we move Can to the centre of defence.

Lol you're trying to hard mate, mentioning Kev Stewart to try and validate your point is pretty desperate. Btw Klopp had other options rather than move Can into a back 3, but he decided not to use them.

[harryc]

It wouldn't have mattered if we didn't get a red card. We would have given them one hell of a game otherwise.

No doubt about that but it's still getting a bit ridiculous that we can't defend.

So losing 5-4 is not much consolation.

[stevensr123]

Joint 2nd goals conceded already - people still defending them.

[Suareznumber7]

We showed our strength today when we ended up with Can as the middle centre back. Last season we could of dropped in Lucas or Stewart this season we move Can to the centre of defence.

What is wrong with that?  Can is better then both Lucas and Stewart.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. 

[redmark]

Horrendous we didn't buy a central defender.

Whatever went on this summer, it's nothing but a disgrace from all sides. Either Klopp took on FSG by demanding his first choice targets and not second (most likely cheaper) alternatives - an issue which has haunted the club ever since FSG became owners. Did he try to call their bluff and demand his first choice, playing a game of risk with his owners, not believing they wouldn't go through with it by not signing VVD? Rodgers accepted cheaper options like Mario back in the day (and we all know how that ended) - either way Klopp lost out on the issue.

Edwards and co will always be safe, not spending money is always going to look good to owners who aren't exactly ambitious. The can will always land on the manager. So he either does 'a Raffa' and expose the situation going on, either through himself or through journalists or just accepts his fate. 

The alternative option would be Klopp was naive in the extreme believing in these set of central defenders, two of whom are injury prone. I don't want to believe in this option.

Or we fucked up tapping up VVD, and Klopp didn't move on to an alternative target because he was partly at fault, put VVD in a shitty position and hoped Southampton would cave in at the end.

[istvan kozma]

City had Champions League football last season and have a massive squad. Probably the deepest squad in European football.

On the other hand in the only period we played twice a week last season we ended up with benches that looked like a boyband,

No they didn't, yet more nonsense.

[Eeyore]

What is wrong with that?  Can is better then both Lucas and Stewart.  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. 

You think Can is a better DM / 3rd centre back than Lucas ?

Funny how the manager continually brought on Lucas towards the end of games last season.

[Suareznumber7]

Horrendous we didn't buy a central defender.

People may not like it, may not agree with it, but should probably understand that Klopp has no problem waiting for the right player.  The one player that he wants and isn't going to settle for anyone else until it's obvious that there is no chance the player he wants is going to come at some point in the near future.  He's building a side for the long term and is willing to take short term gambles while he waits.  While it gives people like you something to complain about after every game we lose or don't play well you have to understand that he isn't going to change. 

[Suareznumber7]

You think Can is a better DM / 3rd centre back than Lucas ?

Funny how the manager continually brought on Lucas towards the end of games last season.

Absolutely, Can is a better player then Lucas.  Of course the manager brought on a defensive minded player towards the end of games.  Is that a surprise to you?  Doesn't mean that Lucas is better then Can because Can was already playing and started every game he was semi-fit for. 

[jillcwhomever]

People may not like it, may not agree with it, but should probably understand that Klopp has no problem waiting for the right player.  The one player that he wants and isn't going to settle for anyone else until it's obvious that there is no chance the player he wants is going to come at some point in the near future.  He's building a side for the long term and is willing to take short term gambles while he waits.  While it gives people like you something to complain about after every game we lose or don't play well you have to understand that he isn't going to change.

In one.

[harryc]

People may not like it, may not agree with it, but should probably understand that Klopp has no problem waiting for the right player.  The one player that he wants and isn't going to settle for anyone else until it's obvious that there is no chance the player he wants is going to come at some point in the near future.  He's building a side for the long term and is willing to take short term gambles while he waits.  While it gives people like you something to complain about after every game we lose or don't play well you have to understand that he isn't going to change.

So what happens if we never get VVD, we are stuck with Lovren and Co for ever 

The pish that's posted on here!

[NaivetyinBlack]

Or we fucked up tapping up VVD, and Klopp didn't move on to an alternative target because he was partly at fault, put VVD in a shitty position and hoped Southampton would cave in at the end.

Most likely scenario.

[Suareznumber7]

So what happens if we never get VVD, we are stuck with Lovren and Co for ever 

The pish that's posted on here!

You must of missed the part where I said "until it's clear that his preferred player won't come in the near future". 

[NaivetyinBlack]

People may not like it, may not agree with it, but should probably understand that Klopp has no problem waiting for the right player.  The one player that he wants and isn't going to settle for anyone else until it's obvious that there is no chance the player he wants is going to come at some point in the near future.  He's building a side for the long term and is willing to take short term gambles while he waits.  While it gives people like you something to complain about after every game we lose or don't play well you have to understand that he isn't going to change.

Its not a short term gamble, if it directly affects the season.