Author Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)  (Read 932517 times)

Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #440 on: February 4, 2017, 09:51:56 pm »
Given the hindsight, maybe some squad rotation early in the season should help. But given our early season loss to Burnley showed that we were still shaky, maybe that hasn't given Klopp a lot of confidence to change too much. And then the perfect storm brewed, firstly with the loss of Coutinho to the friggin outstretched leg of Chelsea player in the Sunderland match. Then followed by Henderson's heel problem and finally compounded with the loss of Mane for a month.

I don't see it as hindsight. If you are running a marathon and you take off like a train using up much of resources in a bid to be ahead at a certain mark knowing it is fact that you will gas at a certain point, what kind of an approach is that to take?

I'll be honest that when it was all going well early in the season that while I did raise some eyebrows towards what was going on, I just presumed that this was sustainable given these guys know far more about what footballers are capable of than me. I very much got a Benitez schooling around these subjects so my education had every bone in my body feeling this was all counter-intuitive to my beliefs. I still wonder is it possible that the management team thought it was possible to play some of these players in nearly every minute of every game for the whole season.


Offline Henry Gale

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #441 on: February 4, 2017, 09:53:10 pm »
We need a new strategy then.
You can't run more than anyone in the league, never rotate, rarely use subs and expect to be playing at the same level after a congested fixture schedule as you did in September
It's a totally incongruent strategy

That's the worrying thing for me. After watching how we have played all January and today I don't think we have one.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #442 on: February 4, 2017, 09:54:57 pm »
I think back to those games when we were battering teams with ample opportunity to rest players with substitutions but instead the manager encouraged often the same 11 to keep the foot on the throat flat to the board right till the final whistle.
Spurs are doing the exact same thing we do successfully for 3 years, it can be done. Fatigue is a red herring , we're fitter than most teams , still outrun anyone we play against.

Our problem right now is simply lack of confidence. We had a couple of real blows in January and it's normal players are subconsciously starting to doubt themselves and just go through the motions at times. At the end of all ends every team goes through a rough patch at one point in the season, we've seen it with all our rival teams - hopefully ours will end at the weekend.

Offline trimore

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #443 on: February 4, 2017, 09:56:28 pm »
We need a new strategy then.
You can't run more than anyone in the league, never rotate, rarely use subs and expect to be playing at the same level after a congested fixture schedule as you did in September
It's a totally incongruent strategy

I don't doubt it. What Klopp strikes me as more then anyone is a trial and error sort of guy. He is not the type to have every single variable worked out in his head before unleashing it. This year the plan was to build a relationship between the forwards and use advanced medical people and new diets (he brought in those Bayern people over the summer) to keep them healthy. They ran triple endurance sessions during the summer to prepare their bodies.

He thought it would be enough without Europe, he was wrong. I want to see how he adapts. The first half of the season is some of the best football this club has ever played, no doubt he will have something over the summer.

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Offline andy07

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #444 on: February 4, 2017, 10:05:43 pm »
The comment about 2008 above made me think:   

Let's go back 9 years and we were turning out.....

Reina
Arbeloa
Hyypia
Carragher
Agger
Mascherano
Alonso
Gerrard
Torres
Kuyt
Babel

Today

Mignolet
Clyne
Matip
Lucas
Milner
Lallana
Henderson
Can
Mane
Firmino
Coutinho

Let's mix today's team and the team above and make a combined 11.  I managed 2 maybe 3 from today who would be in with a shout of breaking into the 2008 team.  Maybe we have deluded ourselves and we have spectacularly overachieved in the first three months of the season.  Give Klopp some genuine quality in the summer.
« Last Edit: February 4, 2017, 10:15:26 pm by andy07 »
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Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #445 on: February 4, 2017, 10:17:18 pm »
Spurs are doing the exact same thing we do successfully for 3 years, it can be done. Fatigue is a red herring , we're fitter than most teams , still outrun anyone we play against.

Our problem right now is simply lack of confidence. We had a couple of real blows in January and it's normal players are subconsciously starting to doubt themselves and just go through the motions at times. At the end of all ends every team goes through a rough patch at one point in the season, we've seen it with all our rival teams - hopefully ours will end at the weekend.

Physically being able to cover the same amount of ground while giving the same output mentally to make good decisions in games are very different things. Fatigue as I was at pains to point out in my last point is far deeper than a players ability to recover to be physically capable of playing the next game.

It is quite a rough patch.

Quote
Last 10 games: DDLDWLLLDL

Includes 2 Losses and a draw to teams battling relegation, a loss to a team in the Championship and a draw to a English Football League 2 team.
Our only win in the last 10 games was against the same team we drew with in the English Football League 2, with a winning goal from Lucas.

Offline trimore

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #446 on: February 4, 2017, 10:24:38 pm »
The comment about 2008 above made me think:   

Let's go back 9 years and we were turning out.....

Reina
Arbeloa
Hyypia
Carragher
Agger
Mascherano
Alonso
Gerrard
Torres
Kuyt
Babel

Today

Mignolet
Clyne
Matip
Lucas
Milner
Lallana
Henderson
Can
Mane
Firmino
Coutinho

Let's mix today's team and the team above and make a combined 11.  I managed 2 maybe 3 from today who would be in with a shout of breaking into the 2008 team.  Maybe we have deluded ourselves and we have spectacularly overachieved in the first three months of the season.  Give Klopp some genuine quality in the summer.

Two of those came from the academy, one (Hyypia) was an amazing, cost effective buy from directly from Finland years before hand. A few are not much better then what we have now. The rest probably would have been split up between City and Spurs who are now equal to us. Don't doubt the size of the task at hand. We need to spend in the summer for sure, but it's not going to solve everything. For me normal purchases we make every year have to be better and the academy products have to step up.   
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #447 on: February 4, 2017, 10:27:56 pm »
Physically being able to cover the same amount of ground while giving the same output mentally to make good decisions in games are very different things. Fatigue as I was at pains to point out in my last point is far deeper than a players ability to recover to be physically capable of playing the next game.
You can devise how ever many theories you want about it but unless you're at Melwood looking at players' numbers from their gps vests with Kornmayer it's all immaterial anecdotal hogwash. I imagine you wouldn't be talking about it had we won the game.

However we should go back to tactics.

Offline newterp

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #448 on: February 4, 2017, 10:31:15 pm »
the sub thing makes no sense to me either - brings on Moreno and Origi with 8 mins to play - essentially no time to make an impact. Hull made their first sub at 60 - we waited til 65 for Sturridge - and Hull was winning.

the subbing has been a problem all season.


Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #450 on: February 4, 2017, 10:57:02 pm »
You can devise how ever many theories you want about it but unless you're at Melwood looking at players' numbers from their gps vests with Kornmayer it's all immaterial anecdotal hogwash. I imagine you wouldn't be talking about it had we won the game.

However we should go back to tactics.

Tactics surely encompass how you use a squad?

As I said previously, everything that I feel now I felt was relevant watching how the squad was used early in the season. I always had a doubt in the back of mind at the ability to play this way in the nature of how the squad was being used. I put all those doubts to the back of mind in a belief that I was wrong and this is possible because we have one of the best managers in the world who looks like he has faith in this line of thinking. I am always open to thinking about things differently when people who know far, far more than me challenge an ideology. I am merely voicing concerns over what I am seeing on the pitch. I hardly think pointing out some of the players looked completely mentally drained is earth shattering news to anyone watching Liverpool.


Offline lgvkarlos

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #451 on: February 4, 2017, 11:20:11 pm »
Now I've calmed down and thought about the season, a few things have dawned on me.

First, since the Premier league began we have never looked as strong home and away against the top six teams. (not just results but the football we play)

Second, we dominate pretty much every game we play (especially with our first eleven)

The reality is that the results are going against us but we boss pretty much every game. Not sure if I've ever seen us control so many games before this. Under Rodgers we hit teams on the break but under Klopp we just dominate.
Klopp's the man who will get us the league,  he just needs realise he needs a bigger and stronger squad in the Prem.

Offline rawcusk8

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #452 on: February 4, 2017, 11:34:33 pm »
Defensively we are a shambles, have been for ages. I'm like a broken record but it's shocking how pathetically feeble our defence is. It is so easy to score against us and it's shit bag rejects that seem to find their scoring touch against us. How do we even go about changing it? We dont have the personnel in my opinion so maybe change of system that offers more protection.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #453 on: February 4, 2017, 11:44:07 pm »
Defensively we are a shambles, have been for ages. I'm like a broken record but it's shocking how pathetically feeble our defence is. It is so easy to score against us and it's shit bag rejects that seem to find their scoring touch against us. How do we even go about changing it? We dont have the personnel in my opinion so maybe change of system that offers more protection.
They piss me off as well, I just can't take these constant mistakes at the back anymore, we dominate possession and territory in almost every single game but recently in particular it seems like every time opposition team steps into our half they score the softest goals possible.

Literally our front 6 is significantly better at defending than our back 5, protection they afford is second to none in the league, we concede the least amount of shots in the division but then you look at the likes of Lovren, Klavan and Mignolet and it's patently obvious they're not good enough. God knows how many mistakes they'd be making if they were tested more than they are.

Systemically I don't think we have a problem but personnel wise there will have to be a major surgery on our defence in the summer.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #454 on: February 4, 2017, 11:44:36 pm »
Fine margins define seasons.  Have we ever recovered from this?  Had this been in and it had been 4-1 and we had won and we were clear top and......Really feel this was the day that we blew it psychologically, we have never really recovered.

we got 13 points from the following 15 from memory, so no it wasn't.

Teams have just figured defend deep and hit it long and you've got a good chance.

Offline jacdaniel

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #455 on: February 4, 2017, 11:59:13 pm »
I am not suggesting we sack Klopp, but there are a few questions worth asking since he has been here well over a year now and has had time to make improvements.

1) Is the goalkeeper position sorted?  The answer is sadly no. We need to either sign one or hope Karius comes good. Mignolet is not good enough and Karius won't improve on the bench.

2) Is the defence better?  Again no, we still concede lots of goals, soft goals, set pieces etc. Fullbacks are too high. Defence today consisted of 2 cm's. It's not a question of personnel. It's that the system is too offensive. Fullbacks bursting forward and no proper DM.

3) Has the midfield improved?  Once again, I would have to say no. Gini is no better than Allen, Can has regressed. We don't have a DM. We don't have a creative type that can dictate play.

4) Are we better up front?  Not better than our 2014 side imo. Not all Klopps fault. But we badly need a striker that fits his system.

5) Are we mentally stronger? Again no, we have lost finals and threw away multiple leads under klopp. We lack a winning instinct.

In conclusion, IMO I think it's brave that FSG and Rodgers and now Klopp are trying to play high pressing, exciting, attacking football. It's been great at times but ultimately I feel like we are 90s Liverpool. Good side, no success or trophies.
Maybe it could work with better players but we don't seem to have the money to invest so it's not relevant.

I believe our clubs best chance of success is to go back to the Rafa / Houllier approach. Make ourselves horrible to play against and tough to beat. Fullbacks that don't always bomb forward. Control in midfield. Some height and physicality. A rougher approach.

Rafas team with a few more creative players would have been almost unstoppable, I think that approach would suit us best given our limited resources.

Attacking football is great in theory, but the PL is mainly won by sides that have a strong defence and don't leak goals. Look at city since Hart lost form and kompany picked up injuries.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #456 on: February 5, 2017, 12:01:58 am »
Can throw pochettinos Spurs in that

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #457 on: February 5, 2017, 12:04:26 am »

4) Are we better up front?  Not better than our 2014 side imo. Not all Klopps fault. But we badly need a striker that fits his system.

I think it's very unfair to compare the attackers Klopp can currently use to the ones Rodgers had in 2014. Suarez and Sturridge were playing at an elite level and I don't think there has been many better attacking teams in the history of the Premier League than the one we had that year.

Offline Jay012345

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #458 on: February 5, 2017, 12:04:54 am »
Teams know how to play us, we need to mix it up and play with other formations.

Offline jacdaniel

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #459 on: February 5, 2017, 12:15:46 am »
I think it's very unfair to compare the attackers Klopp can currently use to the ones Rodgers had in 2014. Suarez and Sturridge were playing at an elite level and I don't think there has been many better attacking teams in the history of the Premier League than the one we had that year.

That's very true, but Klopp needs a striker that fits his vision. Sturridge, origi and Firmino are not it.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #460 on: February 5, 2017, 12:19:24 am »
Teams know how to play us, we need to mix it up and play with other formations.

But will that get our confidence flowing? As that is our biggest problem at the moment. We need to solve it, and certain players need to stand up and be counted. Too many hide behind the manager at present, today though you can sense his frustration with them, so hopefully a week of working with them, will straighten them out for the weekend.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #461 on: February 5, 2017, 12:24:25 am »
Passing map today (via 11tegen11 on Twitter)



A few things you can gleam from that:

1) Can and Henderson taking up each other's space without offering enough on the ball generally to justify it.

2) Milner is the centre of the team's play in the middle and final third, which is very concerning.

3) Connection from left to right is all coming from deep, rather than through midfield and the front three. Very easy for the opposition to shift over to their right, leave Clyne isolated on the other side and know that Clyne has to receive the ball either through running onto a long switch, or receiving into feet from behind him (which only encourages a negative/backwards first touch). Also harder to get Mane properly involved given that without overloads on that side, he's not isolating defenders 1v1 as much and is rarely receiving the ball from anyone other than Clyne, which allows opposition time to shift across and deal with him.

4) Very little output from Lallana, which is ultra concerning given his position.


This pattern of play that we saw today isn't really new though.  If you look back at a lot of our earlier games when we were winning the pattern was very similar with the exception of playing a 4-2-3-1 today instead of a 4-3-3 in other matches.  The biggest problem that I am seeing when we play teams that sit back like this is our poor play in wide areas specifically by our two fullbacks.  Klopp likes to have his wide forwards play in the "half spaces" instead of as a traditional winger.  This leaves all of the responsibility for our wide play to come from our fullbacks.    Teams are now clogging up the middle of the pitch and allowing Milner and Clyne the ball as much as they want it because they know that the majority of time that either of them have the ball they will cut the ball into the middle where there is defensive stability.  Our wide players (the fullbacks) rarely get to the endline and try to make something happen.  We need both Milner and Clyne to improve their wide play or we simply need players who are more attack minded in the fullback position so defenses can't clog up the middle and completely stifle our attack.     

Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #462 on: February 5, 2017, 12:26:50 am »
It's a classic case of having to spend money to make money but FSG don't seem willing or bothered.

Then Klopp should call them out. The fans will back him to the hilt. We have a world class manager who in my opinion hasn't been backed by FSG.

In the modern day era, you don't get 5 odd years to build up a team, to coach young players, and build up a team from grassroutes. Few seasons of finishing outside the top 4 and Klopp will be under immense pressure form the fans. Klopp surely can't be this naive to bellieve he can take on the likes of Chelsea, City and United simply by coaching a bunch of average players, littered with a few very good ones.

Hopefully he's learnt from his first three transfer windows with FSG, that despite the rhetoric of saying they can buy anyone, the reality is very different. Rodgers wised up to very quickly, when his first choices were always out of his reach, and he had to settle for his third and forth choices - or sometimes players he didn't want, but he simply didn't have the stature to take on FSG.

He simply has to demand we pay the bucks for his first choice targets, and secure them. He simply has to make sure his scouts identify the targets he wants, not the targets the fit the criteria of FSG. If not, then he has to come out and say why. No more PR bollocks like said players only wants Champions League, said players only wants to move to London, etc If FSG don't back him, then has to consider his own options and his own stature in the game.

Klopp is a world class manager. We should thank our lucky stars he's with us.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2017, 12:29:50 am by AaronSingh25 »

Offline John C

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #463 on: February 5, 2017, 12:27:19 am »
There's a troll in most threads, including this. Don't quote it.

And to be honest it really has descended in to one of disrespect

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #464 on: February 5, 2017, 12:34:26 am »

Hopefully he's learnt from his first three transfer windows with FSG, that despite the rhetoric of saying they can buy anyone, the reality is very different.

We have a world class manager, who isn't being supported by FSG.
We all want the best for the club and I can give credence to some of the concerns raised about FSG, but have you got any evidence of those 2 statements?

At all?

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #465 on: February 5, 2017, 12:35:40 am »
You can devise how ever many theories you want about it but unless you're at Melwood looking at players' numbers from their gps vests with Kornmayer it's all immaterial anecdotal hogwash. I imagine you wouldn't be talking about it had we won the game.

However we should go back to tactics.

I think the rotation, or lack thereof, of our squad is a great topic for this thread.  The gps won't give the staff any idea of the mental fatigue that could be affecting the team and players who have featured regularly throughout the season.  Mental fatigue is probably worse then physical fatigue as your decision making goes right out the window.  Looking at the massive drop off in form and performances of some of our players I think this could be a big reason why we're currently in the state that we are in. 

Offline Thoros Of Myr

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #466 on: February 5, 2017, 12:35:54 am »
We all want the best for the club and I can give credence to some of the concerns raised about FSG, but have you got any evidence of those 2 statements?

At all?

You see the squad John. The evidence is on the pitch and on the bench.

Offline John C

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #467 on: February 5, 2017, 12:39:08 am »

If Rodgers does get the sack then I feel really sorry for the next guy.  He will have a very impatient fanbase and trigger happy owners to contend with.
I am not suggesting we sack Klopp, but there are a few questions worth asking since he has been here well over a year now and has had time to make improvements.

1) Is the goalkeeper position sorted?  The answer is sadly no. We need to either sign one or hope Karius comes good. Mignolet is not good enough and Karius won't improve on the bench.

2) Is the defence better?  Again no, we still concede lots of goals, soft goals, set pieces etc. Fullbacks are too high. Defence today consisted of 2 cm's. It's not a question of personnel. It's that the system is too offensive. Fullbacks bursting forward and no proper DM.

3) Has the midfield improved?  Once again, I would have to say no. Gini is no better than Allen, Can has regressed. We don't have a DM. We don't have a creative type that can dictate play.

4) Are we better up front?  Not better than our 2014 side imo. Not all Klopps fault. But we badly need a striker that fits his system.

5) Are we mentally stronger? Again no, we have lost finals and threw away multiple leads under klopp. We lack a winning instinct.

In conclusion, IMO I think it's brave that FSG and Rodgers and now Klopp are trying to play high pressing, exciting, attacking football. It's been great at times but ultimately I feel like we are 90s Liverpool. Good side, no success or trophies.
Maybe it could work with better players but we don't seem to have the money to invest so it's not relevant.

I believe our clubs best chance of success is to go back to the Rafa / Houllier approach. Make ourselves horrible to play against and tough to beat. Fullbacks that don't always bomb forward. Control in midfield. Some height and physicality. A rougher approach.

Rafas team with a few more creative players would have been almost unstoppable, I think that approach would suit us best given our limited resources.

Attacking football is great in theory, but the PL is mainly won by sides that have a strong defence and don't leak goals. Look at city since Hart lost form and kompany picked up injuries.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #468 on: February 5, 2017, 12:39:27 am »
Teams know how to play us, we need to mix it up and play with other formations.

Formations ≠ tactics

Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #469 on: February 5, 2017, 12:43:04 am »
We all want the best for the club and I can give credence to some of the concerns raised about FSG, but have you got any evidence of those 2 statements?

At all?

Sunday Supplement journalists said Rodgers would brief the press in private that he was missing out on targets, and players signed he didn't want. Why were we missing out on targets the manager wanted?

Low net spend once again. Infact this year we are in profit, despite revenue for all Premier League clubs at record levels.

We have bought no one again in the winter windows, citing PR excuse that players we want aren't available.  Despite this you can pretty much see transfers that have happened this window that you do think would have improved us. Further PR bluff as you don't get value in January, etc.

That enough evidence ?

I am curious as to know wether Klopp can play the political game and win. He can't be naive enough to believe everything he is told. eg, the commitee couldn't find a single left back in world football for Klopp. Or is it something more sinister - in that they couldn't find a left back that fitted in with FSG recruitment criteria? Same with wingers, etc - It's all well and good Klopp identifying where we need strengthening he has to ensure everyone is working from the same page and supporting HIM.

Offline John C

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #470 on: February 5, 2017, 12:46:01 am »
You see the squad John. The evidence is on the pitch and on the bench.
Absolutely mate, you're correct. The mad thing is, and I'd love to find it, but early in the season some people queried how all the players would get in the team, I've posted a couple of times that we still need a spine. And now its evident we need a bit more than a spine. We know we're desperate for additions, but I wonder if its FSG, the scouts or Klopp that failed to bolster this current cohort. I just think the post I quoted is too imbalanced Thoro.

Offline jckliew

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #471 on: February 5, 2017, 12:48:29 am »
Formations ≠ tactics
Which Klopp seems unable to vary with our bunch of platers.
And yet, we have not brought in players who are able to except for Mane.

This project appears to have been extended a few more years seeing our transfer characteristics.

In meantime, Klopp will have to earn his pay to get us out of this present tailspin of results. Otherwise without CL, betcha transfer kitty will be miniscule.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #472 on: February 5, 2017, 12:49:28 am »
I think the rotation, or lack thereof, of our squad is a great topic for this thread. 
We only used our first-team players in the league and in the league cup semi-final. I'm not buying that one of the fittest teams in the league can't deal with such low work-load. Chelsea and Spurs were using their best team in every league game and have more games in other competitions. The concern over our players' fitness has been overblown, they're dealing with amount of games this season just fine.

Offline jacdaniel

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #473 on: February 5, 2017, 12:50:07 am »


:S  I never suggested sacking Klopp. It's a more a question of the club's approach. Should we be playing attacking football with limited resources? It's clear we won't have the funds to sign the type of players needed.

I guess it's easier to scream troll than question the approach we are taken.


Offline Thoros Of Myr

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #474 on: February 5, 2017, 12:58:11 am »
Absolutely mate, you're correct. The mad thing is, and I'd love to find it, but early in the season some people queried how all the players would get in the team, I've posted a couple of times that we still need a spine. And now its evident we need a bit more than a spine. We know we're desperate for additions, but I wonder if its FSG, the scouts or Klopp that failed to bolster this current cohort. I just think the post I quoted is too imbalanced Thoro.

The lack of accountability is definitely a worry.

Not being able to pinpoint where all our problems stem from causes supporters to search for answers themselves. Many are deducing that the buck stops with the owners. The lack of transfer activity and the stagnation of our performances expedite the process.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #475 on: February 5, 2017, 01:00:17 am »
It really is impossible to know who is to "blame" and how much so. Maybe it is a bit of both as well. Klopp has a particular way of working. It could be that he is still trying to implement that, but has now learnt that he has maybe underestimated what was needed. He is still learning about the Premier League and there are bound to be mistakes along the way.

As for the future people do have a misconception over how much he actually spent when he was at Dortmund. He has never been interested in cheque book football, and he is was scathing when he first arrived, over how obssessed everyone was with money in the Priemier League.

While its true he had some big signings at Dortmund a huge portion of the team where either on free transfers, and others were of low rate but talented players whom he felt he could develop further and fit into how he wanted the team to play. That is his main passion moulding a team who express what he stands for, and gives joy to the fans of that team. I still think that is how he will work early doors. It maybe that he will have to adjust, should certain things not work in the Premier League. But I just cannot see him turning into a big cash spender, it does not interest him one bit. 
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Offline harryc

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #476 on: February 5, 2017, 01:20:35 am »
This is a dirty topic that seems like an elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss due to the nature of what the manager demands being well known so it feels like an attack on him to talk about it but we look fucking wrecked all over the pitch.

I expect that with current sports science people and technology around the game to analyse this stuff that the limitations of what the players can and can't do is quite an exact science in this day and age. I wonder though how much of the focus if any on recovery is around the cumulative effect of playing in such a high intensity, focused, demanding and organised way and how that takes its toll in all departments especially with mental fatigue. I think Jurgen requires his players to be very switched on during games. That kind of focus I think you can clearly see just isn't at the levels it was earlier in the season all over the pitch. They are struggling to make simple good decisions never mind the intricacies of what the manager is demanding. Some of the players have burnout signs hanging around their necks you can see it so badly in them.

There are all sorts of excuses around the lack of a squad to be able to sustain a challenge which I have certain sympathy around but it certainly can't be completely contained within that excuse. I have no understanding of how someone thinks you can ask a team to play in a certain manner without proper use of a squad, substitutions, rotation, game management. They feel like such basic things that form the basis of playing in such a high intense pressing manner than I can't get my head around how it was ever felt this was sustainable.

I think back to those games when we were battering teams with ample opportunity to rest players with substitutions but instead the manager encouraged often the same 11 to keep the foot on the throat flat to the board right till the final whistle.

High Intensity since when?

All of the shit teams just give us the ball there is no need to gegenpress as we have the the ball fir 70%  of the time so I'm sorry your fatigue argument is bollocks.

Offline Caligula?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #477 on: February 5, 2017, 01:28:43 am »
I'm sure it's been mentioned on here, but the subs. The fecking subs. It's probably my biggest ire with Klopp. At half time it was very apparent that it just wasn't working once again. Yet we were perfectly willing to waste around 20 minutes in the second half trying in vain the same things that were tried and failed in the first half in the hope that we might somehow get back into it. Hull, from a winning position, made substitutions before us. And then Moreno and Origi coming on 8 minutes before the final whistle. Well, that's just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Offline trimore

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #478 on: February 5, 2017, 01:45:52 am »

Attacking football is great in theory, but the PL is mainly won by sides that have a strong defence and don't leak goals. Look at city since Hart lost form and kompany picked up injuries.

The PL have been maninly won by sides who did both expectionally well. Moving forward we should stop looking to prioritize one over the other.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #479 on: February 5, 2017, 01:51:13 am »
This pattern of play that we saw today isn't really new though.  If you look back at a lot of our earlier games when we were winning the pattern was very similar with the exception of playing a 4-2-3-1 today instead of a 4-3-3 in other matches.  The biggest problem that I am seeing when we play teams that sit back like this is our poor play in wide areas specifically by our two fullbacks.  Klopp likes to have his wide forwards play in the "half spaces" instead of as a traditional winger.  This leaves all of the responsibility for our wide play to come from our fullbacks.    Teams are now clogging up the middle of the pitch and allowing Milner and Clyne the ball as much as they want it because they know that the majority of time that either of them have the ball they will cut the ball into the middle where there is defensive stability.  Our wide players (the fullbacks) rarely get to the endline and try to make something happen.  We need both Milner and Clyne to improve their wide play or we simply need players who are more attack minded in the fullback position so defenses can't clog up the middle and completely stifle our attack.     
The pattern of play is rather different to what it was earlier in the season actually.
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