Author Topic: Sadio Mané  (Read 1819430 times)

Offline Chakan

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4440 on: September 12, 2017, 07:24:14 pm »
Oh sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing either. Apologies. Reading my post back I can see how it came across.

Yeah, I sort of hoped the similar challenges the day after would have helped us. Obviously not. Annoying. If we had got it reduced to 2 games he'd have only missed the Bunrley game really as he was never going to play the LC game anyway. Hopefully with Salah though we won't miss him too much. Be interesting to see if Ox plays wide or Coutinho.

Unfortunately once the FA makes a decision they tend to back their decision with their "independent commissions". Yeah I think if Mane was going to get a red and miss 3 games these are the ones you'd want him to miss. I think Ox might come in and Coutinho go center. Least  that's the hope.

Offline Koplad83

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4441 on: September 12, 2017, 07:26:35 pm »
We will miss mane regardless of who comes in as he is that good! I still think we can win without him obviously, but he's a massive miss.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4442 on: September 12, 2017, 07:26:52 pm »
Well he's getting a rest for midweek

Offline sms1986

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4443 on: September 12, 2017, 07:48:44 pm »
Well he's getting a rest for midweek

Did Klopp say that?

If so, he might feel that Mane needs the rest.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4444 on: September 12, 2017, 07:49:45 pm »
Did Klopp say that?

If so, he might feel that Mane needs the rest.

No the FA said that ;)

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4445 on: September 12, 2017, 07:52:47 pm »
If I'm a ref going into this weekends round of fixtures I've no idea what decision I'm expected to make if someone challenges with a high foot. All options are open to me it seems seeing as one lad was sent off, one booked and another received nothing for very similar challenges and the FA and PGMOL have seemingly backed all of those decisions. I've also seen former referees on tv give completely different opinions on those incidents despite citing the exact same wording and guidance.  Helpful.

I guess, more to the point, if I was a player I'd have no idea where I stand. Is it worth challenging for a high ball or not seeing as, on the whim of a referee, you could walk, not be penalised at all or anywhere in between.

A couple of sentences from the FA or the head of the referees could clear it all up, but no. Nothing.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:54:31 pm by Kekule »

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4446 on: September 12, 2017, 07:58:47 pm »
If I'm a ref going into this weekends round of fixtures I've no idea what decision I'm expected to make if someone challenges with a high foot. All options are open to me it seems seeing as one lad was sent off, one booked and another received nothing for very similar challenges and the FA and PGMOL have seemingly backed all of those decisions. I've also seen former referees on tv give completely different opinions on those incidents despite citing the exact same wording and guidance.  Helpful.

I guess, more to the point, if I was a player I'd have no idea where I stand. Is it worth challenging for a high ball or not seeing as, on the whim of a referee, you could walk, not be penalised at all or anywhere in between.

A couple of sentences from the FA or the head of the referees could clear it all up, but no. Nothing.

The law is written with no mention of the outcome. Yet the outcome seems to be the only thing that is taken into account. Basically, the opposite interpretation of how it is written. It was dangerous if someone gets hit/hurt. If not, it wasn't dangerous.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4447 on: September 12, 2017, 10:11:02 pm »
I dont see what else Mane could do and am trying to think how he could have approached this.  I think Klopp and almost all fans would be pissed if he didnt try to flick the ball over the goalie. If he bottled out would we have been happy?
Someone mentioned what happens with future bicycle kicks thats clip an opponents head? Will they be sending offs? because in past ok they are free kicks but normally not even a booking.  This sets a new precedent where it isnt worth trying an overhead kick which is one of the most exciting tricks we see.
Sad the keeper got hurt, but Manes challenge was a normal one and I think the fully expected thing to do with unfortunate outcome. Not a lunging red card. You can see what Mane is trying to do. A normal clip over the keeper.  Felt like yellow and still does.

Offline Blue Coop

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4448 on: September 12, 2017, 10:22:05 pm »
I dont see what else Mane could do and am trying to think how he could have approached this.  I think Klopp and almost all fans would be pissed if he didnt try to flick the ball over the goalie. If he bottled out would we have been happy?
Someone mentioned what happens with future bicycle kicks thats clip an opponents head? Will they be sending offs? because in past ok they are free kicks but normally not even a booking.  This sets a new precedent where it isnt worth trying an overhead kick which is one of the most exciting tricks we see.
Sad the keeper got hurt, but Manes challenge was a normal one and I think the fully expected thing to do with unfortunate outcome. Not a lunging red card. You can see what Mane is trying to do. A normal clip over the keeper.  Felt like yellow and still does.
Mane had every right to go for the ball, the same way a defender has every right to go for a last ditch tackle. If you time it wrong you pay the price. That doesn't stop last ditch tackles in the same way it doesn't stop people attempting overhead kicks. Football has always been a game of timing and if you miss time something and it's dangerous then it's always been a red. Studs are the most dangerous part of the footballers foot and he's put it through the lads cheek 6 ft in the air. I don't see how that means overhead kicks are now redundant, but anytime your studs are near faces surely you're taking a chance if your timing is off... surprised it's rumbled on this long to be fair but maybe I'm just biased.

It was far more of a red than Walker and that was news for about 4 minutes.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4449 on: September 12, 2017, 10:41:53 pm »
Mane had every right to go for the ball, the same way a defender has every right to go for a last ditch tackle. If you time it wrong you pay the price. That doesn't stop last ditch tackles in the same way it doesn't stop people attempting overhead kicks. Football has always been a game of timing and if you miss time something and it's dangerous then it's always been a red. Studs are the most dangerous part of the footballers foot and he's put it through the lads cheek 6 ft in the air. I don't see how that means overhead kicks are now redundant, but anytime your studs are near faces surely you're taking a chance if your timing is off... surprised it's rumbled on this long to be fair but maybe I'm just biased.

It was far more of a red than Walker and that was news for about 4 minutes.
I dont see this biased and you know what, your example of last ditch foul isnt bad way to think on it. We see those last ditch red card situations a lot.
This Mane example is maybe a less common occurance as the striker gets the foul/ red card going forward to try to score rather than stop something happening (which a defender does)   I still think I would feel the same if Aguero was the attacker and Mignolet the keeper.
Anyway it was surely unfortunate in the outcome for the keeper and for Mane.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4450 on: September 13, 2017, 12:19:43 am »
let it go ffs. its a red, deal with it. or, if you must, have a whinge to make yourself feel better.
i wonder what the odds on him winning the PL Player of the Month award for september are.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4451 on: September 13, 2017, 03:12:39 am »
i wonder what the odds on him winning the PL Player of the Month award for september are.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4452 on: September 13, 2017, 04:26:07 am »
If I'm a ref going into this weekends round of fixtures I've no idea what decision I'm expected to make if someone challenges with a high foot. All options are open to me it seems seeing as one lad was sent off, one booked and another received nothing for very similar challenges and the FA and PGMOL have seemingly backed all of those decisions. I've also seen former referees on tv give completely different opinions on those incidents despite citing the exact same wording and guidance.  Helpful.

As a ref I wouldn't give a shit because the independent commission will back up whatever decision I make.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4453 on: September 13, 2017, 09:02:50 am »
Someone mentioned what happens with future bicycle kicks thats clip an opponents head? Will they be sending offs?

Nobody knows since they will pretty much make up the rules as they go along. The FA have shown that they don't care about consistency of their refs and whatever the refs decide is fine. You might get sent off, or a booking, or a telling off, just depends on what ref you get, and what team you are.

I think the FA should have to explain their decision and why similar incidents are dealt with in different ways in order to show why any appeal should be rejected. They should also make clear that this is a precedent going forward, just like the announcement that final man won't automatically be sent off now.

Consistency over red cards is always a problem but as long as the c*nts at the FA are kept in comfort who gives a fuck about the applying the rules fairly.

I was pissed off when the incident happened, but I'm even angrier now. At least if the same punishment was being handed out to everyone then you could understand it.

Fuck em, Sadio gets 2 weeks off after today and we get to integrate Coutinho back into the team.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4454 on: September 13, 2017, 10:25:18 am »
The Mané / Ederson incident is an extremely interesting one though - it throws up all sorts of logical inconsistencies in both the actual law as written and the policing of it. Kicking someone in the head should be a read to protect players health, so high feet are dangerous - except when they aren't. The laws are really badly written and the refs interpret them contextually every time. It has always been thus. What you get is a largely a lucky draw. Morally, can't argue with the decision though. Look at the poor lad's boat.

Ederson was ridiculously brave (and/or stupid) to stick his head there, but he won his team the game with that action. Very unusual. Glad Mané is only missing two league games and not three.

Offline jckliew

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4455 on: September 13, 2017, 11:12:37 am »
missing Mane in the PL games will be the first real test of our squad management and quality since most have associated last season's deterioration after a fine start with Mane's abscence.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4456 on: September 13, 2017, 11:26:36 am »
missing Mane in the PL games will be the first real test of our squad management and quality since most have associated last season's deterioration after a fine start with Mane's abscence.

We should be fine, shouldn't we? Klopp gets to build a front 3 out of the below:

Coutinho/Firmino/Salah/Sturridge/Solanke/AOC/Woodburn/(and if really desperate - Milner)

The issue last year was we'd lost Coutinho and Sturridge at same time as Mane. and Salah, Solanke, AOC weren't here. Woodburn was 16/17 and Milner was our first choice LB.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4457 on: September 13, 2017, 11:54:30 am »
Nobody knows since they will pretty much make up the rules as they go along. The FA have shown that they don't care about consistency of their refs and whatever the refs decide is fine. You might get sent off, or a booking, or a telling off, just depends on what ref you get, and what team you are.

I think the FA should have to explain their decision and why similar incidents are dealt with in different ways in order to show why any appeal should be rejected. They should also make clear that this is a precedent going forward, just like the announcement that final man won't automatically be sent off now.

Consistency over red cards is always a problem but as long as the c*nts at the FA are kept in comfort who gives a fuck about the applying the rules fairly.

I was pissed off when the incident happened, but I'm even angrier now. At least if the same punishment was being handed out to everyone then you could understand it.

Fuck em, Sadio gets 2 weeks off after today and we get to integrate Coutinho back into the team.

Make refs higher paid, set higher standards, ask for transparency with match reports made public. Maybe even mike them up as they do with Rugby.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4458 on: September 13, 2017, 11:58:05 am »
The Mané / Ederson incident is an extremely interesting one though - it throws up all sorts of logical inconsistencies in both the actual law as written and the policing of it. Kicking someone in the head should be a read to protect players health, so high feet are dangerous - except when they aren't. The laws are really badly written and the refs interpret them contextually every time. It has always been thus. What you get is a largely a lucky draw. Morally, can't argue with the decision though. Look at the poor lad's boat.

Ederson was ridiculously brave (and/or stupid) to stick his head there, but he won his team the game with that action. Very unusual. Glad Mané is only missing two league games and not three.
Rules/Laws are usually intentionally vague to allow a lot of room for interpretation. If you make a rigid rule about high feet, you could get to a point where Zidane's volley against Leverkusen is dangerous. Can's goal against Watford is a red card, etc. With a loose rule you end up with inconsistency as ever person interprets it differently.

I think the rules have to be quite vague as it would ruin the sport to make it that rigid. Therefore the requirement is for referees to improve, be more consistent, be transparent, be open.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4459 on: September 13, 2017, 12:03:07 pm »
Rules/Laws are usually intentionally vague to allow a lot of room for interpretation. If you make a rigid rule about high feet, you could get to a point where Zidane's volley against Leverkusen is dangerous. Can's goal against Watford is a red card, etc. With a loose rule you end up with inconsistency as ever person interprets it differently.

I think the rules have to be quite vague as it would ruin the sport to make it that rigid. Therefore the requirement is for referees to improve, be more consistent, be transparent, be open.
Yep, 'public opinion' as expressed through pundits has gone through several phases over the years of demanding consistency, followed by demanding common sense. If you allow common sense and interpretation, you can't have complete consistency.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4460 on: September 13, 2017, 12:12:00 pm »
Make refs higher paid, set higher standards, ask for transparency with match reports made public. Maybe even mike them up as they do with Rugby.
Interestingly, research has indicated that paying somebody more money has no appreciable improving impact on their performance if the task is more complex than a simple menial one. In this instance, would paying Moss more money have made him more accurate?

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4461 on: September 13, 2017, 12:17:29 pm »
ask for transparency with match reports made public. Maybe even mike them up as they do with Rugby.

This is what I want.

I think the refs have it horrible with some stick they get, and it's not easy making these decision a lot of the time. (Although some are awful). Germany at the minute has video technology, which means the players that complain soon forget it when the ref says the VAR system backs the decision. Other than that, just to have clarification of the interpretation on the rules would make it so much easier for fans to understand (even if they may still disagree).
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Offline redmark

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4462 on: September 13, 2017, 12:18:50 pm »
Interestingly, research has indicated that paying somebody more money has no appreciable improving impact on their performance if the task is more complex than a simple menial one. In this instance, would paying Moss more money have made him more accurate?
Presumably the argument would be that the career would attract more people and the larger pool of 'talent' would push Moss down the list.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4463 on: September 13, 2017, 12:19:11 pm »
Rules/Laws are usually intentionally vague to allow a lot of room for interpretation. If you make a rigid rule about high feet, you could get to a point where Zidane's volley against Leverkusen is dangerous. Can's goal against Watford is a red card, etc. With a loose rule you end up with inconsistency as ever person interprets it differently.

I think the rules have to be quite vague as it would ruin the sport to make it that rigid. Therefore the requirement is for referees to improve, be more consistent, be transparent, be open.

Yeah I agree the laws need wiggle room, but I think the most interesting thing is that where precedent is set over two-footed tackles, the launching-off feet kind, this kind of incident is so rare that some lads doesn't usually get the full boot to the jaw. In midfield or in defence, the player with the head in the mix pulls out of the challenge (e.g. Mawson), or the keeper who fears for his health pulls out, probably bodychecks Mané and gets sent off. The incident is so unusual because it's going to become a landmark decision, the start of a conversation about player welfare, head injuries, concussion, etc.

Mané's getting a red because he cleans out Ederson, not because his foot was high though which remains a problem, logically. What's the punishment for a high foot near someone's head that doesn't make contact - red? Does it not fulfil all the criteria for recklessness, particularly if we bear in mind that a two-footed lunge doesn't necessitate contact to be a red card offence.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4464 on: September 13, 2017, 12:21:15 pm »
Make refs higher paid, set higher standards, ask for transparency with match reports made public. Maybe even mike them up as they do with Rugby.

If they mic'd up the refs it would expose how much abuse they are on the end of. They'd have to start sending off everyone, or miraculously change a century of ref-baiting culture overnight!

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4465 on: September 13, 2017, 12:26:26 pm »
Yeah I agree the laws need wiggle room, but I think the most interesting thing is that where precedent is set over two-footed tackles, the launching-off feet kind, this kind of incident is so rare that some lads doesn't usually get the full boot to the jaw. In midfield or in defence, the player with the head in the mix pulls out of the challenge (e.g. Mawson), or the keeper who fears for his health pulls out, probably bodychecks Mané and gets sent off. The incident is so unusual because it's going to become a landmark decision, the start of a conversation about player welfare, head injuries, concussion, etc.

Mané's getting a red because he cleans out Ederson, not because his foot was high though which remains a problem, logically. What's the punishment for a high foot near someone's head that doesn't make contact - red? Does it not fulfil all the criteria for recklessness, particularly if we bear in mind that a two-footed lunge doesn't necessitate contact to be a red card offence.
But this is where we context and interpretation comes into it and - difficult though it seems to be for many Liverpool fans - Mane's was a little worse than the other examples this weekend. Little details add to the degree of danger/recklessness involved. Players running straight at each other and the straight leg combine to deliver more force, delivered through studs straight into the side of the keeper's face. It's not 'just' the high foot, it's the context of the high foot.

Of the three examples and the punishments delivered, I do think the referees collectively got the 'order' (if not degree) of seriousness right, though clearly the unpunished should have been a yellow, and Mane's on another day might not have been red.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4466 on: September 13, 2017, 12:41:33 pm »
But this is where we context and interpretation comes into it and - difficult though it seems to be for many Liverpool fans - Mane's was a little worse than the other examples this weekend. Little details add to the degree of danger/recklessness involved. Players running straight at each other and the straight leg combine to deliver more force, delivered through studs straight into the side of the keeper's face. It's not 'just' the high foot, it's the context of the high foot.

Of the three examples and the punishments delivered, I do think the referees collectively got the 'order' (if not degree) of seriousness right, though clearly the unpunished should have been a yellow, and Mane's on another day might not have been red.


I think that differentiating between Ederson and Mawson decision is a moral one rather than a technical one. They are both the same offence... I think realistically, football is absolutely full or moral decisions by referees, judgements on intentions of another human, and contextualising of decisions. There are precious few black and white decisions. I don't think the Mané one was either, but I'm fine with him getting a red card. If that happened to Mignolet I would demand one, so I have to take it when Sadio cleans out the dude.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4467 on: September 13, 2017, 12:53:55 pm »
Interestingly, research has indicated that paying somebody more money has no appreciable improving impact on their performance if the task is more complex than a simple menial one. In this instance, would paying Moss more money have made him more accurate?
On top of what RM said, the paying more was simply for the increased workload and public scrutiny their work would be under - not because I attribute more money to Moss becoming a better referee. I would also start hiring from abroad (if possible) to shake up the status quo.
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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4468 on: September 13, 2017, 12:57:53 pm »
I think that differentiating between Ederson and Mawson decision is a moral one rather than a technical one. They are both the same offence... I think realistically, football is absolutely full or moral decisions by referees, judgements on intentions of another human, and contextualising of decisions. There are precious few black and white decisions. I don't think the Mané one was either, but I'm fine with him getting a red card. If that happened to Mignolet I would demand one, so I have to take it when Sadio cleans out the dude.
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Offline Koplad83

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4469 on: September 13, 2017, 01:19:52 pm »
Manes was a red card, why can't people accept this?? He gone in studs up, with a straight leg and caught the player! That's a red card these days. Yes it wasn't malicious and he was trying to get the ball but he mistimed it.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4470 on: September 13, 2017, 01:20:58 pm »
Manes was a red card, why can't people accept this?? He gone in studs up, with a straight leg and caught the player! That's a red card these days. Yes it wasn't malicious and he was trying to get the ball but he mistimed it.

As proved by the Newcastle and West Ham games that's inaccurate.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4471 on: September 13, 2017, 01:25:36 pm »
The same FA that went grovelling to UEFA to get Rooney's three game ban reduced to two before Euro 2012 for kicking an opponent
I guess it's violent conduct with them when suits
Different tournament. Different rules.





Which was Hodgson's justification after Dalglish (who was backed up by Redkanapp) called out the inconsistency.
That was when he was obviously positioning himself for the England job and saw it as a chance to brown nose the FA and put himself in a better light than his rival for the role, Redknapp. Such a transparent move by such an odious, self serving dickhead.

Offline Bromley Red

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4472 on: September 13, 2017, 01:40:19 pm »
Have the FA ever accepted an appeal? The only ever headline I read about appeals are those that are rejected. No harm done. Worth a shot.

also the Matic ban for pushing Ashley Barnes over, reduced from 3 to 2. If it had happened now Matic plays for United, Barnes would get a ban for touching Matic's hands with his back.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31613184
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4473 on: September 13, 2017, 01:47:52 pm »
Manes was a red card, why can't people accept this?? He gone in studs up, with a straight leg and caught the player! That's a red card these days. Yes it wasn't malicious and he was trying to get the ball but he mistimed it.

People can't or struggle to accept it because of the obvious inconsistencies that occur.
The FA don't help with their ridiculous rules on which incidents can be reviewed retrospectively.

Offline baffled

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4474 on: September 13, 2017, 03:03:43 pm »
If Fellaini did that to someone, I'd want him to be tied to a goalpost and have his legs broken.

If he did that I'd expect a celebratory feature the in Sunday papers the following weekend about how Shit Coat has turned him into the player he always knew he could be.

Offline Curtisinho

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4475 on: September 13, 2017, 03:40:05 pm »
At the end of the day a play like that should be a red card. Period. Just because others were missed or not given doesn't mean Mane shouldn't have seen red. He should have, he did, and he'll take the 3 games. In the grand scheme of things it's not so bad since he can still play in the CL, and we would like to see him rotated when possible anyway so view it as a forced rotation.
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Offline Koplad83

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4476 on: September 13, 2017, 04:15:47 pm »
As proved by the Newcastle and West Ham games that's inaccurate.

They aren't the same tho are they?

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4477 on: September 13, 2017, 04:17:16 pm »
They aren't the same tho are they?

Of course they are the same.

"He gone in studs up, with a straight leg and caught the player."

Offline Koplad83

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4478 on: September 13, 2017, 04:25:55 pm »
Of course they are the same.

"He gone in studs up, with a straight leg and caught the player."

The West Ham one the players is stood still and tries to kick the ball. Mane is running flat out puts his foot 6ft in the air studs showing mistimes it and catches the keeper. It's unlucky but a red. Anyway that's my opinion. I appreciate you don't agree and I can see where you're coming from. I just think it's an unfortunate red.
I'll just add there's always instances of players being sent off for something in one game and someone doing something identical in another doesn't get sent off. Annoying yes, but it's always been that way.

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Re: Sadio Mané
« Reply #4479 on: September 13, 2017, 04:28:05 pm »
The West Ham one the players is stood still and tries to kick the ball. Mane is running flat out puts his foot 6ft in the air studs showing mistimes it and catches the keeper. It's unlucky but a red. Anyway that's my opinion. I appreciate you don't agree and I can see where you're coming from. I just think it's an unfortunate red.
I'll just add there's always instances of players being sent off for something in one game and someone doing something identical in another doesn't get sent off. Annoying yes, but it's always been that way.

I think all 3 incidents are comparable. It's the inconsistency of the decisions that gets me, mainly from the FA side. What constitutes a red card one game is totally ignored in the next and the next is different from those 2. I don't mind it was a red if the very next challenge involving a high boot was also red. I have stated before I think they should all be yellow cards and then move on.