Topic: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series - MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS

[Alan_X]

I know what you mean, the police department definitely did some shady stuff and were way too focused on Avery, but at the same time he still seems like an awful human being who more than likely killed her. It's good that the show has brought a lot of attention to how his nephew was treated though.

Zellner just seems like she loves the exposure but who knows, it'll be interesting to see what's been going on with the case.

You should watch the series. She absolutely nails the police department to the wall. There isn't a single piece of evidence that stands up. Of course she wants exposure. It is more than just a case of maybe he did/maybe he didn't do it. There isn't a shred of credible evidence that shouldn't be thrown out and she wants that in the public domain.

It's a shame people aren't finding this as gripping as the last one. Is that what this was all about? It was just TV entertainment? Two men are still in prison for a crime they should never have been found guilty of. They are still in prison because the US 'justice' system is completely fucked up.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

You should watch the series. She absolutely nails the police department to the wall. There isn't a single piece of evidence that stands up. Of course she wants exposure. It is more than just a case of maybe he did/maybe he didn't do it. There isn't a shred of credible evidence that shouldn't be thrown out and she wants that in the public domain.

It's a shame people aren't finding this as gripping as the last one. Is that what this was all about? It was just TV entertainment? Two men are still in prison for a crime they should never have been found guilty of. They are still in prison because the US 'justice' system is completely fucked up.

The only reason it isn’t as gripping is because everyone now knows about the case and how it has progressed since part 1. I’d guess most watched the first season not knowing if he was going to be found guilty, whereas now everyone will be aware that he is still in prison.

[tubby]

The only reason it isn’t as gripping is because everyone now knows about the case and how it has progressed since part 1. I’d guess most watched the first season not knowing if he was going to be found guilty, whereas now everyone will be aware that he is still in prison.

That's basically it for me, we all know how it ends.

[Brian Blessed]

I've kept up with the story, so, as above, haven't been as eager to watch. I did watch the first episode the other day and it is better than I thought it would be.

[Alan_X]

That's basically it for me, we all know how it ends.

It hasn't ended.

[Alan_X]

I've kept up with the story, so, as above, haven't been as eager to watch. I did watch the first episode the other day and it is better than I thought it would be.

Seriously, watch the series. His lawyer is brilliant and goes through the evidence item by item. You may know where it gets to so far but the work they do is fascinating and it will have you raging at the Manitowoc County and the US justice system.

There may have been some doubt in my mind about whether Avery was innocent or not but it's 100% clear in my mind from the second series that he was set up and it's about 90% certain who actually did it.

[Brian Blessed]

Seriously, watch the series. His lawyer is brilliant and goes through the evidence item by item. You may know where it gets to so far but the work they do is fascinating and it will have you raging at the Manitowoc County and the US justice system.

There may have been some doubt in my mind about whether Avery was innocent or not but it's 100% clear in my mind from the second series that he was set up and it's about 90% certain who actually did it.

Oh, I am. I was trying to get fellow doubters on board:P

Two episodes in, and I don’t know who set Steven up (other than what came out of season 1) but I can say Brendan was treated like shit, and Ken Kratz is a piece of shit.

[west_london_red]

Oh, I am. I was trying to get fellow doubters on board:P

Two episodes in, and I don’t know who set Steven up (other than what came out of season 1) but I can say Brendan was treated like shit, and Ken Kratz is a piece of shit.

Brendan’s step dad seems very shifty to me, and the neighbor on whose property the burn barrels were found has to worth a further look (am watching episode 4 as I type this)

[Original]

Just finished it and it has made my head fall off more than an Everton transfer window. How on earth are these 2 men in jail?

[Alan_X]

Just finished it and it has made my head fall off more than an Everton transfer window. How on earth are these 2 men in jail?

Politics and money. And the ones who fucked him over the first time being shit scared of the consequences.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Brendan’s step dad seems very shifty to me, and the neighbor on whose property the burn barrels were found has to worth a further look (am watching episode 4 as I type this)

Spoiler

Cannot remember what episode, but the lawyer woman says that the neighbours alibi checked out

[close]

[Kashinoda]

There may have been some doubt in my mind about whether Avery was innocent or not but it's 100% clear in my mind from the second series that he was set up and it's about 90% certain who actually did it.

That's the problem with the whole premise.

In the first season they show how bad it was for Manitowoc County to paint Avery in such a horrible light in a very public way before there was even a trial. Which is completely correct.

But then they discredit the series by omitting evidence in favour or Avery and pushing their agenda rather than provide an unbias view.

On the second series they double down on this to a ridiculous degree. His new laywer is incredibly guilty of this, despite getting no where with the courts she has no problem constantly and publicly accusing others of the crime with no evidence to back it up.

When the series is being investigative it's great, but when it's attempting trial by media when the premise of the show is meant to be the opposite then who can really believe anything.

[Alan_X]

That's the problem with the whole premise.

In the first season they show how bad it was for Manitowoc County to paint Avery in such a horrible light in a very public way before there was even a trial. Which is completely correct.

But then they discredit the series by omitting evidence in favour or Avery and pushing their agenda rather than provide an unbias view.

On the second series they double down on this to a ridiculous degree. His new laywer is incredibly guilty of this, despite getting no where with the courts she has no problem constantly and publicly accusing others of the crime with no evidence to back it up.

When the series is being investigative it's great, but when it's attempting trial by media when the premise of the show is meant to be the opposite then who can really believe anything.

Interesting take on it.

You don’t think Avery was subject to ‘trial by media?’ from the start.

You think there is good evidence that Avery actually did it?

Of course she has to use every tool at her disposal. There isn’t a shred of credible evidence that either Avery or Dassey committed the murder.

[Kashinoda]

Interesting take on it.

You don’t think Avery was subject to ‘trial by media?’ from the start.

You think there is good evidence that Avery actually did it?

Of course she has to use every tool at her disposal. There isn’t a shred of credible evidence that either Avery or Dassey committed the murder.

Avery was very much the victim of trial by media, it was very 'Central Park Five' all over again.

There's circumstantial evidence to back up that Avery did it but nothing for me that confirms he was guilty beyond doubt. I'm of the view he likely did but with what I saw in season 1 and what what I read afterwords, I still can't be sure. I think that's a fair reflection of the case overall.

No doubt Zellner has to do everything she can, it's her job. But I feel it sets a dangerous precedent to start accusing people (initially those close to Halbach, then later doing the same to Bobby Dassey) when you now have millions of people willing to side with Avery in the wake of the initial season.

Really this should have been the work of competent police detectives at the time of the murder, perhaps there is no other way to do it now.

[Alan_X]

Avery was very much the victim of trial by media, it was very 'Central Park Five' all over again.

There's circumstantial evidence to back up that Avery did it but nothing for me that confirms he was guilty beyond doubt. I'm of the view he likely did but with what I saw in season 1 and what what I read afterwords, I still can't be sure. I think that's a fair reflection of the case overall.

What is the evidence that makes you believe that?

Spoiler

The bullet clearly was never near a human skull.

The hood latch swab makes no sense. It had no traces of the materials you'd find on the inside of any car bonnet. The chain of evidence was faked.

Brendan Dassey's confession was clearly coerced - the one 'fact' that they kept going back to was the hood latch, which indicated strongly that the detectives knew it was fake.

The bone fragments aren't from a whole body and there are far more elsewhere than were found (probably planted) near Avery's home.

The RAV4 was spotted away from the Avery yard and reported to the policeman who then just happened, for no reason, to call in the plate model and colour of the vehicle. The policeman was also involved in fitting up AVery the first time round and had an interest in setting Avery up for the Halbach murder.

Bobby Dassey had paedophilia and pictures of dead women on his computer. His testimony that Theresa Halbach didn't leave the Avery yard is contradicted by other witnesses.

And so on.

[close]

It's not just a question of reasonable doubt. There is simply no credible case that Stephen Avery or Brendan Dassey had anything to do with it based on the police evidence.

No doubt Zellner has to do everything she can, it's her job. But I feel it sets a dangerous precedent to start accusing people (initially those close to Halbach, then later doing the same to Bobby Dassey) when you now have millions of people willing to side with Avery in the wake of the initial season.

Really this should have been the work of competent police detectives at the time of the murder, perhaps there is no other way to do it now.

It wasn't the work of 'competent detectives' because they knew from the outset that they were setting him up. And there is a way to do it now, the same way that other miscarriages of justice have been overturned - you re-test and re-run the experiments (blood spatter, ballistics etc) that were either not done or corrupt at the time.

That's exactly what Zellner is doing - a forensic analysis of all of the remaining evidence. And so far it's demolished the police case at every turn.

[Ray K]

I'm 7 episodes into S2, and it's really striking the different approaches both legal teams are taking.

Zellner - who I really don't like, she's way too celebrity and fame-obsessed - seems to love experimentation, trying every type of testing to prove that it was impossible for the crime to have happened the way the police and prosecutors say, so should be considered unsafe. She's throwing a lot of mud, but I'm not sure enough is sticking (the blood spatter stuff is unconvincing), though the bullet fragment looks to be the most compelling.

Nirider and Drizen are much more of your academic-type lawyers, focusing on case laws and precedent and not getting their hands dirty. (I don't think I've seen either of them near the Avery's property).  I found it interesting that during the appeal in Chicago, most of their disgust at the appearance of Ken Kratz wasn't because he's an unbelievably awful shitbag, but that he was giving a press conference in the lobby of the courthouse and (indirectly) shilling for his book there.

I'll see how the rest of the series plays out, but I don't think I've moved much from my position at the end of S1 that Brendan Dassey is completely innocent and that the police framed a probably guilty man in Avery.

[Alan_X]

I'm 7 episodes into S2, and it's really striking the different approaches both legal teams are taking.

Zellner - who I really don't like, she's way too celebrity and fame-obsessed - seems to love experimentation, trying every type of testing to prove that it was impossible for the crime to have happened the way the police and prosecutors say, so should be considered unsafe. She's throwing a lot of mud, but I'm not sure enough is sticking (the blood spatter stuff is unconvincing), though the bullet fragment looks to be the most compelling.

Nirider and Drizen are much more of your academic-type lawyers, focusing on case laws and precedent and not getting their hands dirty. (I don't think I've seen either of them near the Avery's property).  I found it interesting that during the appeal in Chicago, most of their disgust at the appearance of Ken Kratz wasn't because he's an unbelievably awful shitbag, but that he was giving a press conference in the lobby of the courthouse and (indirectly) shilling for his book there.

I'll see how the rest of the series plays out, but I don't think I've moved much from my position at the end of S1 that Brendan Dassey is completely innocent and that the police framed a probably guilty man in Avery.

I really don't get it - why do you think Avery is guilty?

[Ray K]

I mean I wouldn't bet my life on it, but on the balance of probabilities I think Steven Avery is the person most likely to have murdered Teresa.
- He requested her personally to visit the yard
- She did arrive at the yard and did meet with him and took pictures
- There's no evidence she ever left the yard.
- Her car was found in the yard, and the blood in the car matched Avery. The defence at trial suggested that blood came from the test tube of blood from his original conviction, but the EDTA results proved negative for that, implying that it was fresh blood.
- Some of her remains were found in the burn pit outside his trailer
- He cleaned his garage with bleach (and thus bringing Brendan into the case)

What happened after 2:31 must have happened very quickly. If it was another killer, the real killer must have been incredibly fortunate timing-wise to have been on or near the property,  seen her arrive and meet with Avery, then apprehend her as she left, but she was unable to make an emergency phone call while this happened.

Too many coincidences. Too many people required for a grand conspiracy, including Federal agents not in the pay of Manitowoc County.
Occam's Razor suggests Avery acted alone and quickly after she arrived.

[tubby]

Yeah my feeling on it after watching the first season was that he likely did it but he knew the authorities didn't know how so he could fight anything they threw at him, even more so when they just started doing a whole bunch of dodgy shit to try and put him away.

[Alan_X]

So a bullet that hasn’t passed through a human skull but has her DNA on along with traces of lip salve is not evidence of the police planting evidence? The bullet with no traces of bone but clear traces of wood (ie shot through the side of the barn and landing inside.

A swab that has massive amounts of DNA but no traces of engine compartment dirt is convincing evidence to you?

The fact that Brendan Dassey was persuaded to mention the hood latch (which he wouldn’t have known about if he was innocent) before they ‘found’ it tells you that the police must have known it was there. Which means they planted it.

The fact that the RAV4 was spotted away from the Avery property and the licence plate was called in by the cop who set him up first time round.

There was no blood or DNA in the bedroom where she was meant to have been brutally raped, tortured and stabbed. No marks from handcuffs on the bed.

The ‘burn pit’ wouldn’t reach the temperature require to incinerate a body.

The only witness saying she was still at Avery’s place was a young man with a hard drive full of paedophilia and pictures of mutilated young women and girls.

It didn’t require a grand conspiracy to fit him up. Manitowoc County Sherrifs Department took control of the crime scene and investigation. They had the motive and opportunity to move the abandoned car onto the Avery lot after it was found. They had the motive and opportunity to plant blood and re-label swabs.

It also didn’t require any collusion between the police and the real killers.

[markedasred]

- He cleaned his garage with bleach (and thus bringing Brendan into the case)

Did he?. I though it was said in series 1 that the garage was dirty (not cleaned), but no DNA. I have no recollection of bleaching the garage, any idea where that was discussed?.

[Alan_X]

Did he?. I though it was said in series 1 that the garage was dirty (not cleaned), but no DNA. I have no recollection of bleaching the garage, any idea where that was discussed?.

It came from Brendan Dassey's 'confession'.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Brendan-Dassey-Interview-Transcript-2006Mar01_text.pdf

Search for 'bleach' and it comes up.

It's obviously nonsense. The 'clean up' of the blood from a woman who was raped, stabbed, had her throat cut and then shot ten times in the stomach, heart and head was 'two spots' about 2' x 2'. And the clean up of the bedroom and the garage took about ten minutes between 9.50 and 10.00.

It's absolute bullshit.

[Alan_X]

Honestly reading through that 'confession' is laughable. Brendan is desperately trying to guess what they want him to say but keeps fucking it up.

Brendan never mentions her being shot. When they ask 'what else happened?...' he comes up with his best guess: 'cut her hair...'

As he clearly has no idea either what actually happened, or what the police story is, they have to ask him straight out 'who shot her in the head...'

Then we go on a dance where she's shot once, twice, three times and finally ten times... When they ask him where, again he guesses that it was 'outside'. They need it to be inside the garage to fit their story so he's led around until he get's it 'right'.

Or almost right - at first he guesses they want him to say she was shot in the RAV4. But that's not right either so they move him on until he comes up with the answer that fits the bullet they found. The bullet with no bone fragments (but with timber fragments) and Theresa's DNA mixed up with lip salve.

[Chalky Boots]

You should watch the series. She absolutely nails the police department to the wall. There isn't a single piece of evidence that stands up. Of course she wants exposure. It is more than just a case of maybe he did/maybe he didn't do it. There isn't a shred of credible evidence that shouldn't be thrown out and she wants that in the public domain.

It's a shame people aren't finding this as gripping as the last one. Is that what this was all about? It was just TV entertainment? Two men are still in prison for a crime they should never have been found guilty of. They are still in prison because the US 'justice' system is completely fucked up.

It's not as good a TV show but I think I learned far more about the case in this (around what I've read up) season than prior and Zellner is a large part of it. It's a what if but I think Avery probably would never have been jailed had she had been the original defence team as she presents enough reasonable doubt to question the validity of the countys case.


I'm not sure that Avery wasn't involved but I do think, if I was a member of the jury, I'd have enough doubt to attribute the murder of Theresa to him directly. Bobby is another story altogether.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Just watched first three episodes of season two.

Ken Kratz is the epitome of evil...  The press conference, taunts about evidence (trunk latch, sweat DNA, and the obscene use of the Dassey confession) and the history of this county's malfeasance using police and prosecutorial self serving policies for forensics, crime scene evaluation makes me want to vomit.

Zellner is the real freaking deal.  Love the obsessive nature of how she approaches a case. 

I think his previous attorneys knew that they were not going to be able to go the entire way --- and since one element of his defense has to be failure of previous council to try the case, I think they are all agreed to play along with Steven Avery's complaint about council.  And when you look at Dassey's first attorney --- its easy to see how the fix was in.  What a doucher.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

How do we feel about Strang and Buting now?

I feel a little bit sad that they weren't able to do some of the basic testing she did, or bring any expert witnesses to the stand. Why was that? Was the testing not available then? Not enough resources/money?

I didn't like Zellner at the start - she did seem to enjoy the attention and the spotlight but she looks to have done a brilliant job - not just breaking down the 'evidence' but bringing new names into the frame and doing everything to bring about a lack of confidence in the verdict. 

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

I don't quite understand what will happen with Brendan? Can he only now be released if Steven Avery gets a new trial/vacated?

[Chalky Boots]

I think because of the obstructive way the prosecution handled proceedings they dropped the ball on a number of things they may not have done in a less high profile case. They missed things they shouldn't have and didn't push enough with what they did. They were far too polite, which the state wasn't. I think being a defence attorney or even prosecution you need to be great with how you present facts just as much as you are about finding them. They weren't.

It's the same thing with the woman who did Dasseys appeal. She came across like a first year associate, that's not a really good look when you're sat in front of 7 circuit judges.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Or almost right - at first he guesses they want him to say she was shot in the RAV4. But that's not right either so they move him on until he comes up with the answer that fits the bullet they found. The bullet with no bone fragments (but with timber fragments) and Theresa's DNA mixed up with lip salve.

Was she only testing one bullet? And if so, is that the only bullet that had TH's DNA on it?

[Alan_X]

Was she only testing one bullet? And if so, is that the only bullet that had TH's DNA on it?

It was the only bullet that the police registered as evidence. It had her DNA on it but it had never been near anyone's head.

[Alan_X]

I don't quite understand what will happen with Brendan? Can he only now be released if Steven Avery gets a new trial/vacated?

Possibly not even then. The real killers could be found guilty with full DNA and video of them actually committing the trial and they could still keep him inside.

It's one thing showing he didn't commit the crime, the insanity seems to be that the acceptable grounds for overturning the verdict are almost insurmountable.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I don't quite understand what will happen with Brendan? Can he only now be released if Steven Avery gets a new trial/vacated?

Episode 2 - in the second season discusses why this is so difficult to get this overturned

1.  State court defeats over years make each step insurmountable for state action
2.  US Judicial system built upon the premise of ----> Finality (state and federal)
3.  The federal Clinton/Congressional response to the Oklahoma City bombing (linking terrorism appeals to habeaus corpus in society) was to pass a bill called AEDPA - which limited the federal response in overturning state appeals courts

This means that Federal Courts not only have to correct:

1.  Past judgements
2.  Widespread culture of jurisprudence in the US related to finality
3.  Taking on AEDPA - https://thewire.in/world/gutting-habeas-corpus-the-inside-story-of-how-bill-clinton-sacrificed-prisoners-rights-for-political-gain

In this moment, there are few elected officials doing this kind of work. 

[Alan_X]

The AEDPA is a dreadful piece of legislation but it was bi-partisan and not just a Clinton decree. It's a classic example of making bad law in haste and not looking at the consequences of populist politics.

Another good article here:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-destruction-of-defendants-rights

The act was response to the first Word Trade Centre attack in 1993 and the Oklahoma bombing. Before the act, a significant number of cases were being overturned as a result of errors in the legal process:

A landmark Columbia Law School study of virtually every state and federal death-penalty appeal from 1973 to 1995 reported that “courts found serious, reversible error in nearly 7 of every 10 of the thousands of capital sentences that were fully reviewed during the period.” There were so many mistakes, the study found, that after “state courts threw out 47% of death sentences due to serious flaws, a later federal review found ‘serious error’—error undermining the reliability of the outcome—in 40% of the remaining sentences.” Without federal habeas corpus, those serious errors would have gone unchecked. Instead of later being found not to deserve the death penalty, as happened in seventy-three per cent of the cases, or instead of being found innocent, as happened in nine per cent of the cases, these defendants likely would have been put to death.

Oklahoma and the first WTC attacks encouraged the feeling that terrorists shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the failures in the court system and be allowed to get off.

The AEDPA didn't resolve the failings in the justice system. It simply meant that those failings would not be allowed to stop the bad guys being put to death. It would mean quite a few innocent or unfairly convicted people would be put death or imprisoned but hey, what's a few innocent dead people among friends?

As a result of A.E.D.P.A., and the Court’s interpretation of it, Liebman and a colleague estimate, the reversal rate of state courts in death penalty cases has been reduced by about forty per cent. There is no reason to believe that state courts have improved in the past two decades, which would have been a factor in the decline. That forty-per-cent decline translates into a failure to catch many serious errors in cases where individuals did not deserve the death penalty—and some serious errors in cases where individuals were, very likely, innocent.

That's what Brendan Dassey is up against.

[owens_2k]

Spoiler

Some things I just need to get off my chest!

The planner that the ex boyfriend could have only obtained from the Rav!!?

The fact they couldnt replicate the key falling off the bookcase. Be interesting to see if they make the police try and do that in court

The brake light that they wont let Zellner test. Wonder why? Key evidence for the defence?

The CDs containing bobby dassey search history sneakily hidden by Kratz from the defence

Zellner did a Q&A online which is quite good reading. One of the main things that isnt mentioned is that the shackles Avery bought were novelty fluffy ones that had no traces of Halbach's DNA

One thing that I do question though is the intelligence of Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych. Would they be smart enough to take Stephens blood from the sink using a pipette and to also take some blood flakes and plant them in the RAV? And in the process not leave any of their own DNA? I think not.

[close]

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Just binged watched the entire second season last night.

Should have known it was going to be the trifecta of depression:

1.  Election night stupidity in so many states but none more so than Florida
2.  The show highlights how the system works to fuck people over - not so fun little precipitate of show (as I admire the hell out of Zellner)
3.  Anger and rage Manitowac County - opposite of who we are

by the by ---- Fucking Scott Walker was defeated in Wisconsin in the gubernatorial race --- that insipid bastard needs to rot inside a cell for a decade or more for what he did to the state of Wisconsin.   Thank fuck he he's gone. 

Alas, we wait.  Pissed off, and hungry for justice.  Reminds of the JTF96! 

[Alan_X]

Spoiler

Some things I just need to get off my chest!

The planner that the ex boyfriend could have only obtained from the Rav!!?

The fact they couldnt replicate the key falling off the bookcase. Be interesting to see if they make the police try and do that in court

The brake light that they wont let Zellner test. Wonder why? Key evidence for the defence?

The CDs containing bobby dassey search history sneakily hidden by Kratz from the defence

Zellner did a Q&A online which is quite good reading. One of the main things that isnt mentioned is that the shackles Avery bought were novelty fluffy ones that had no traces of Halbach's DNA

One thing that I do question though is the intelligence of Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych. Would they be smart enough to take Stephens blood from the sink using a pipette and to also take some blood flakes and plant them in the RAV? And in the process not leave any of their own DNA? I think not.

[close]

Spoiler

You're mixing two things up. The crime and the fitting up of Steven Avery were not collusion. The police didn't know or care who the real perpetrators were, they wanted to stitch up Avery and the disappearance of Teresa Halbach gave them that opportunity. The sink and other forensic evidence were taken by Manitowoc Sherriff's Dept and used to create the case.

The hypothesis is that Bobby Dassey followed Teresa Halbach and killed her with Scott Tadych (probably). The RAV4 was concealed off the road and spotted by a passer-by who informed the officer who then called in a query about the licence plates. The following day, the RAV 4 was 'discovered' on Avery's property.

[close]

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Spoiler

You're mixing two things up. The crime and the fitting up of Steven Avery were not collusion. The police didn't know or care who the real perpetrators were, they wanted to stitch up Avery and the disappearance of Teresa Halbach gave them that opportunity. The sink and other forensic evidence were taken by Manitowoc Sherriff's Dept and used to create the case.

The hypothesis is that Bobby Dassey followed Teresa Halbach and killed her with Scott Tadych (probably). The RAV4 was concealed off the road and spotted by a passer-by who informed the officer who then called in a query about the licence plates. The following day, the RAV 4 was 'discovered' on Avery's property.

[close]

Al, the one thing I am struggling with is the pace of decision making here for the murder.  It seems like a weird time, and scenario to commit a random act of violence against someone they did not know that well. 

Halloween time in rural Wisconsin notwithstanding, it makes me think there is another reason (besides SA's past with the county) for this murder.  Although, the type of behaviors and language coming out of the Avery's is so disturbing as well as computer contents -- enough for many.

But, I wonder if there is more here about THalbach's passion of taking photos.   Did she take a picture of something that no one was supposed to see?  Small speculative theory, but the timeline for her death seems weird, especially since she was headed home first before she was to see her mother (from MaM2).   Probably not, but just something to float out into the world.

Lastly, did you see this tweet from STadych? https://twitter.com/zellnerlaw (remember the c- word in the US is much different than in UK)

[Alan_X]

Interesting series of questions and answers in that thread. I must have missed that she thinks the killer planted the blood in the RAV4, not the police.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Interesting series of questions and answers in that thread. I must have missed that she thinks the killer planted the blood in the RAV4, not the police.

Good point - in a small town like that, everyone knows each others' business. 

It would not surprise me if the killer(s)/police plant was an agreed upon marriage of convenience. Then again it could be one or the other, most likely police aided since they would have access to his blood in bigger samples - hospital swabs etc..

What shocks me most about this is how much the family has all of these disparate parties who come and go without much analysis
1.  Bobby's testifying
2.  Tadych's testifying and hostility to the Avery's
3.  Earl - thinking his brother did it and then changes his tune (relationship with Police via his wife Candy)
4.  Bryan's statements about Bobby
5.  Barb's protection of Bobby at Steven's expense
6.  Other brother of Steven's - name escapes me

Just nutty.

[Schmidt]

Only watched the first episode so far, it was a bit jarring going from people talking about remembering Theresa and wanting some peace early in the episode to seeing a group of people throwing a Theresa doll soaked in blood around 20 minutes later.