Topic: Round Table: Pelé Granny´s Man City 1 - Klopp´s Liverpool 4

[BabuYagu]

What can I say after a 4-1 at the Etihad? It was far from perfect but it was very good.

- Jurgen Klopp, 21 November 2015

I predicted at the start of the Klopp era we would probably be wildly inconsistent up until January or February but would see glimpses of what Klopp´s future Liverpool would be. I also predicted we would hand out an absolute battering to one of the top teams. Didn´t we just, eh? The scary thing is, it should have been more. EIGHT would not have flattered us at all. This without our 3 best players in the spine of the team: Sakho-Henderson-Sturridge.

I also got some shit wrong too though. I was worried about Coutinho and Lallana as part of our attacking unit. For Klopp´s style of play to succeed, he needs players in that forward lineup that will run beyond the striker and in behind the defence. When have we seen Coutinho and Lallana do that on a consistent basis? It was part of the reason I thought we may see Henderson further forward as that crucial element is something he does as well as anybody. His finishing is quite tidy too.

In the Chelsea game round table I highlighted how Mikel and Ramires were fucked before a ball was even kicked. We used those 3 + Can, Milner & Lucas to totally overload them time and again giving them so many problems and decisions to make that they were mentally exhausted in no time and all and completely shut down. It was beautiful to watch and made me realise that tactically, Klopp is far far ahead of what people give him credit for.

Wind the clock forward a few weeks and here we are taking City apart like they are nothing. Lallana and Coutinho playing off Firmino was just devastating as they constantly got into those channels and terrorized the City backline. I was quietly excited when I saw the lineups. Touré + Fernandinho made me wonder if Pellegrini even bothered to send a scout to London that game. But we had evolved even from that Chelsea game. We targeted the fullbacks and channels between them and the CB´s also. Watch the game and see how many times we strangled the life out of their midfield, then had our full backs occupying the flanks, a runner between FB & CB and Firmino at the same time either dragging someone away from that runner or running into space unmarked. We also had composure and calm in the final third. That + runners = win it seems with Klopp. Man City´s back 6 will have PTSD this week. Sleepless nights. Waking up in a pool of sweat screaming "Your man", "watch the runner".

As good as Liverpool were, Manchester City were terrible.

- Every British football pundit, 21 November 2015

Get used to this half-praise. Klopp set´s his teams up to suffocate the life out of the opposition midfield and fullbacks and force them into playing rushed, blind, percentage balls or risk losing possession. So when it works, the opposition will look terrible. Their attacking flair players won´t be able to get into the game (We saw Hazard and Carlos Eduardo both hooked early in the game for this), their forwards will have no service or support and their fullbacks and midfielders will struggle to get forward. Their play will be full of mistakes and misplaced passes.

But we haven´t just turned up on a day when Chelsea and Man City decided to play like shit. We made that happen. Yet it will be used to reduce our praise rather than add to it. But rather than get frustrated by this, enjoy it. It can be our little secret while they scratch their heads in bewilderment at why top sides are all collectively decided to be garbage against us.

Key to everything we do in games like this is our Bob. I love this guy already and, having seen a lot of him pre-Liverpool, I know we are still only seeing the tip of the iceberg. If Lucas is our un-brazilian midfielder, then Bob will bring all the flair and skills to make up for it. Remember that moment he was running around the Man City box doing the "seal" trick? He does stuff like that. "No-look" shots. Marseille roulettes into a backheel pass. When he feels confident here, he will be similar to Ronaldinho at Barcelona in how fans will hold their breath when the ball goes to him, expecting something brilliant to happen.

The main thing he brings us in these big away games against top sides as a false 9 is an almost unsolvable problem for the opposition. Mark him or leave him? Defence problem or midfield one? His movement is a nightmare to play against. The defence either marks him and gets moved into areas they don´t want to be in (like yesterday)... or they let him go, allow their midfield to be swamped and over run (like we saw at Chelsea). Hopefully I don´t have to read anymore people in the pre-match threads saying "playing with no striker against sides like this is a mistake".

He cost us a goal yesterday and so scored a belter to make up for it. He´s a real threat in the opposition box but we haven´t seen that for some time. He´s someone who should be good for about 5 goals a season so let´s hope this was the first of many this season. Thought he was excellent yesterday bar the mistake for his goal. I mean, he won a sliding headed tackle in his own box. Handball my arse Sterling.

Bring on Bordeaux! I´m already counting down the hours. Football has rarely felt this good.

Kolo Touré - our new DM?
Lovren - his best performance for us?
Is Emre Can starting to play like the midfielder we need?
Henderson - where?
Lallana - He was MOTM for me. Is his output still a worry for you?
How did you celebrate the 3rd?
That Sterling miss - schadenfreude at it´s finest?

[Yorkykopite]

Pellegrini is a serious manager who has seen a lot and therefore his reaction after the game (and during it if you saw it on TV) is something we should take seriously. He called his side's performance a "disaster" and said that Liverpool might reasonably have scored a few more. At one point in the second half the City coach was slumped back in his chair with his hands covering his face. You felt for him. There were still 20 minutes of this one-sided match to go.

It was a measure of Liverpool's domination that this experienced man should have reacted like that. Over a long a career he will have seen his teams beaten by 4-1 before. Indeed Spurs despatched City by the same scoreline at the start of the season. But there was something about the nature of this demolition that clearly left Pellegrini with considerably more than a flesh wound.

Before we get carried away, we ought to remember that it was only a year and a bit ago since Liverpool were last seen destroying elite teams away from home through such imaginative football and by such thumping scorelines. But then, I suppose, we had Suarez. I have never bought the idea that Rodgers was successful at Anfield because he coached a 'one man team' anymore than Rafa's success depended solely on Gerrard and Torres (it was Alonso ) . But what was truly marvellous about Saturday's thrilling (if sometimes flawed) performance was the team ethic and the all-round excellence. Every Liverpool player played well. Players we've all sometimes wondered about, like Lovren and Moreno perhaps, suddenly appeared indomitable. The full backs had good games, especially once de Bruyn was figured out after 15 minutes or so, and they both timed their forward runs well (more goals will flow from these runs once the team begins to fully understand their potential). Can was magisterial in midfield and appeared to scare Yaya Toure a couple of times. Lucas was Lucas and Milner, in his best game for the Reds, probably edged 'man of the match'.

Then there were the forwards.

The tricksy forward three of Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana (why aren't all 3 in the Brazilian squad?) might have looked 'lightweight' on paper, especially with Benteke and Ibe on the bench, but it was simply too much for City's big blokes at the back. I suspect Kompany wouldn't have made much difference. Of course all three put in a shift. After the game Klopp was asked about this energy and desire and said that "of course" one always expected Liverpool players to be fighters. It was a nice thing to say, but we know it's not true. In the past we've given berths to footballers who aren't fit enough to fight or lack the spirit to fight when things go wrong. We've even seen players who lack the spirit to fight when things go well. Consequently, over time, we've taken to our hearts - pretty much as Stoke City or Huddersfield Town supporters do - players who have poor technique but fight like fury for the badge. In the process we've perhaps convinced ourselves that every team requires both "artists" (skilful but hate doing the spadework) and "fighters" (no skill, but lots of energy) to function properly. We've even called this deeply unsatisfactory state of affairs "balance".

But it's not true. The best teams have fighters from 1 to 11 and each one of those players needs to have high technique.

Yesterday we had that. Klopp was pleased because he saw a team of fighting artistes. At times Firmino resembled Suarez (the fighting artist par excellence) with his demonic chasing. Coutinho is a highly technical player who has now been encouraged to think of himself as a highly technical tackler. The way in which he dispossessed Sanga to set up the first goal was a testament not just to his desire to follow Klopp's instructions but to an accomplished tackling technique.

The final word is for Lallana. When he first came he was always injured and therefore we didn't see him at his best. But even so you could see the fellow had a special talent. After we beat Bournemouth in a cup game at Anfield I wrote that I saw bits of Jari Litmanen in him. What I meant was that he was so in control of the ball, so aware of what was happening around him and so perfectly balanced that he could apparently process information a second or so quicker than anyone else. Players who 'think ahead' like that are hard to dispossess and can constantly spring surprises. There is no more "surprising" thing in football than a dummy. The purity of the dummy represents football at its most sublime. You literally don't have to do anything in order to joint a defensive unit. Two weeks ago a Lallana dummy set up Benteke for the third against the Russian Vanity Project. On Saturday an even better one should have set up Firmino for his second against the Arabian Vanity Project. I hope, and believe, that Lallana has now found his perfect coach. The artistry was always there; now the energy seems there too. If Klopp can bring them together on a consistent basis Liverpool will do extremely well.

[John C]

Enjoy a couple of cracking posts so far 

[CHOPPER]

The third

[rickardinho1]

Top opening posts lads. Babu, you never fail to impress with your round tables, thanks.

I don't have much analysis to add right now that wouldn't just be recycling things that have already been said here and in the post-match thread, but one thing I noted that hasn't been mentioned is that Klopp praised Skrtel for being "excellent tactically" among other things.

Most posters here including me were pretty straightforward in assessing Skrtel's chances of sticking around under Klopp (for his habits of dropping deep, age, etc), but he's making us eat our words with his current level of performance.

He's as reliable fitness-wise as a footballer gets, and you know you're always going to get 110% from him, so it would be pretty silly not to keep him at least another season if he keeps this up, even though he does have his flaws. Curious to hear what others think of his performances, or if I'm the only one who's started to change my mind a little bit when it comes to Skrtel's suitability?

As for your topics...

Toure DM - just need Sakho and Gomez to play at DM to complete the CB to DM group!

Lovren has looked very solid but personally I'm not surprised. He's finally playing in a system that allows him to focus on his strengths (aerials, front foot tackles, not having to force passes under pressure, etc), and also has a much greater degree of support defensively from teammates so isn't hung out to dry as a result.

I think Can was solid, but I think calls that this was his best performance for us yet are exaggerated, perhaps by that back heel, which was pretty damn fine in isolation but doesn't mask the fact that he can become a bit more effective on and off the ball. A good game, but still room for improvement.

Henderson will come into the team gradually through the cup games I suspect. He's been out for months and isn't cultured in Klopp's tactics yet so it makes sense to ease him in slowly first. I expect that he'll take Can's position when he's back to full speed though, for the simple reason that he has significantly more output in attack than Can.

I've never been worried about Lallana. I was overjoyed when we signed him as he was the most entertaining PL player to watch in 13/14 that didn't play for us. His output last season in terms of goals and assists was never as bad as made out to be once you factored in injuries. Glad he's finally getting the plaudits he deserves for his hard work and undeniable quality. The runs in behind are making a big difference to his game, so some credit goes to Klopp too.

The 3rd goal was just *sunglasses on, look at friends and say "awwww yeeeah" good*. Just a super cool goal that didn't need a wild celebration but instead just a casual grin and look over at others watchin the game with you 

As for the Sterling miss, I did freeze for a second when I saw a City player closing down Milners back pass, but when I realised it was Sterling I immediately relaxed safe in the knowledge that he'd probably miss 

[B0151?]

Wow. Just watched the MNF analysis. Didn't realise just how much Klopp's tactics helped us win that game. When you get as many players into the box as that, you're going to be a problem, but it really does look like we specifically worked on exploiting the way Man City defend.

I don't mean this to sound like I thought it was going to be a negative thing, but I tended to just think of Klopp and his gegenpressing being the way he gets his team to play and he just works on getting that to work as well as it can. If this match is anything to go by, he's a lot more precise than I'd imagined. Don't get me wrong, I know every manager makes adjustments and targets weaknesses, but Klopp really did do a number on Pellegrini there.

I was going to say we were ruthless once we saw the way we set up had potential - but I'm not even sure we were ruthless! By the sounds of it, the players were a bit shocked at how well it worked! Truly amazing, the players confidence in Klopp must be unimaginably high after this game. It could easily give us momentum to make the Palace post-match thread look really fucking daft come May time. I don't think that we're going to go on a massive run or anything, the home fragility might need a bit more work, but the way we trounced City was deliberate as fuck. A controlled demolition, with Klopp the man pressing the big red button!

[killer-heels]

It was a truly magnificent performance from start to pretty much finish. There was great belief in the team and that third goal was a type of goal that you dream about your team scoring.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Kolo Touré - our new DM?

Joking aside, it does seem a regular tactic for Klopp to bring on a centre-back for the last five minutes as a holding midfielder in games we are winning. I assume he wants the added aerial ability to counter teams trying to launch a few long balls into the mixer to see what happens.   

Lovren - his best performance for us?

No, I think he’s played better on many occasions, under Rodgers and Klopp. I was quite surprised a couple of his ‘mistakes’ haven’t been brought up in the game thread considering the minute detail his game is often dissected to.

He is a good defender when played central, his problems come when he has to defend out wide and this is compounded when playing next to Moreno who can often be caught too far upfield. Klopp said he started with the team that he had the most time to work with during the international break and I think you could see the fruits of this with some disciplined performances from the likes of Can and Moreno, which meant Lovren wasn’t being dragged into those areas he doesn’t like to go.

Is Emre Can starting to play like the midfielder we need?

He really put that poor performance against Palace with an assured and disciplined game against City. I’m still not sure what type of player he is and I still think there are areas of his game he struggles at such as his pressing which is very ‘all or nothing’. You can see the midfielders are being told to press the player closest to them and this is working well, but if say Milner or Lucas press the player and are beaten, they can quickly change direction and try to get back. When Can is beaten his inertia seems to take him several more yards before he can slow himself down enough to change direction. 

Henderson - where?

In a midfield two (+ either Lucas, Can or Milner) with Sturridge/Benteke up front and an attacking trio of Lallana, Coutinho and Firmino behind. That team, especially if Sturridge is fit, is full of goals and creativity and would be match for anyone in the league. If we played that formation and those players could stay fit and healthy, I would have very high expectations for the remainder of the season.

Lallana - He was MOTM for me. Is his output still a worry for you?

Ran as much as anyone, doesn’t stop all game but also has that silky touch on the ball and an eye for a pass. He may not be getting as many assists and goals as the others in the front line but he is contributing in other ways.

His dummy against Chelsea doesn’t count as an assist or a key pass but he made a massive contribution to that goal. Bombing from the half way line to try and get on the end of Benteke’s knock down against Chelsea and drawing defenders with him doesn’t show as anything in his stats but his unselfish work helped give Coutinho the space to score the second. His dummy against City, which was probably some of the best football of the game, doesn’t show as any stat. His corner against City from which we scored the fourth won’t show on any stat. But he’s ‘involved’ in all those goals and made a massive contribution.

I can understand when people say he needs to score more, which he does, but you can also see we’re making big improvements to make scoring easier with three or four players in the box when attacking. When Firmino was pulling the ball back for the first goal Lallana and Coutinho were both sprinting to that front post with Milner following up behind. We are really flooding the box much more now and if we continue to do that more goals will surely come for the attacking players.

How did you celebrate the 3rd?

Waiting for the referee’s whistle to go to disallow it for off-side, I thought it must have been so wasn’t getting too excited. It was a thing of beauty and to hear Gary Neville describe it as five-a-side football made it all the more pleasing.

[rickardinho1]

Of all the players enjoying a renaissance under Klopp I think I'm personally taking the most pleasure in Lucas. That snidey shithouse of a yellow card he took for pulling back aguero in the first half, and the way he complained vociferously afterwards 'it's my first one'. I love that. I love shithousery. I love a team with snide players who excel in the dark arts. I love to see the piss boiling in the opposition team and fans. I love that even our own fans might get frustated with a 'silly' free kick on the half way line that Lucas has conceded to stop them playing - people don't appreciate that snide shithousery like that is just as valuable as a good through ball or a shot on goal. I love defensive midfielders generally, I loved Mascherano and Sissoko when they were here, and didi too. I like players that stop players playing, there's real craft and art to it and Lucas is showing - again - he's a master of it on his day. He's playing as well as back in 2011 under Kenny. But now he's a leader and the most experienced member of the team. So here's to deliberately 'it was clumsy not dirty' tackles. Here's to 'he dived I didn't run into him' shouts. Here's to stopping them before they get started. Here's to Lucas Leiva.

Sounds like you'd really enjoy watching Stoke/WBA/Chelsea play 

[stockdam]

A magnificent game for us which showed the rest of the league that we are a top class side. Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana were outstanding. Everytime we had the ball in the first half we looked like we could score.

On the other hand City's setup was perfect for us. They changed that in the second half and the game became much more competitive.

The third goal was a master-class and would have graced the Camp Nou.

My favourite though was the 4th. Skrtel took unfair stick earlier from the fans but as he always does, he rolled up his sleeves and worked hard. I was delighted for him.

Back to the original post......."This without our 3 best players in the spine of the team: Sakho-Henderson-Sturridge.".

Is Sakho better than Skrtel or Lovren? Well he plays well with Skrtel so is he better than Lovren? That question was easy to answer last month but Lovren is starting to show some form and that's going to give us better options at the back.

Henderson......is he better than Can or Lucas? Where will he fit in? It will be hard to break up a good team to fit Henderson in.

Sturridge will have to wait to get onto the team as Firminho is starting to look good.

It's great to see that Klopp will find it difficult to justify those three players returning without fighting for their places. They may have to be part of a 14 man team where we bring on fresh legs.

So we will have Gomez, Ibe, Henderson, Allen, Sakho, Benteke, Sturridge, Ings all trying to get back onto the first team at some stage and when they do they will play their hearts out as they know that their place is not guaranteed.

Oh and as for Klopp's interviews...........he just laughs and jokes and has a great time.

Things are looking good.

[rickardinho1]

More than one way to skin a cat. Everyone forgets about how much we ground out our trophies under rafa and houllier. There were some real horrible performances in the runs to european finals. There's no shame in them when you're on the ale and lifting silver.

Why would anyone ever skin a cat? 

[rickardinho1]

A magnificent game for us which showed the rest of the league that we are a top class side. Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana were outstanding. Everytime we had the ball in the first half we looked like we could score.

On the other hand City's setup was perfect for us. They changed that in the second half and the game became much more competitive.

The third goal was a master-class and would have graced the Camp Nou.

My favourite though was the 4th. Skrtel took unfair stick earlier from the fans but as he always does, he rolled up his sleeves and worked hard. I was delighted for him.

Back to the original post......."This without our 3 best players in the spine of the team: Sakho-Henderson-Sturridge.".

Is Sakho better than Skrtel or Lovren? Well he plays well with Skrtel so is he better than Lovren? That question was easy to answer last month but Lovren is starting to show some form and that's going to give us better options at the back.

Henderson......is he better than Can or Lucas? Where will he fit in? It will be hard to break up a good team to fit Henderson in.

Sturridge will have to wait to get onto the team as Firminho is starting to look good.

It's great to see that Klopp will find it difficult to justify those three players returning without fighting for their places. They may have to be part of a 14 man team where we bring on fresh legs.

So we will have Gomez, Ibe, Henderson, Allen, Sakho, Benteke, Sturridge, Ings all trying to get back onto the first team at some stage and when they do they will play their hearts out as they know that their place is not guaranteed.

Oh and as for Klopp's interviews...........he just laughs and jokes and has a great time.

Things are looking good.

Lovren has been good but let's not kid ourselves. Sakho is the superior player.

As for the rest of our players, I don't think many would disagree that our best team with everyone fit is this:

             Mignolet
Clyne  Skrtel  Sakho  Moreno
       Henderson Lucas
  Lallana  Firmino  Coutinho
             Sturridge

Bench: Bogdan, Lovren, Gomez, Can, Milner, Ibe, Benteke

Rested: Toure, Randall, Enrique, Rossiter, Allen, Teixeira, Origi, Ings

Not to mention some other youths and loanees who could probably contribute too: Ilori, Wisdom, Williams, Kent, Ojo, Sinclair, Markovic.

[Giono]

Yorykopite: "Lucas was Lucas"


That says a lot. But it must be said that he was more than the DM we are used to seeing over the last 8 seasons. He no longer just sits, rather the deep position in front of the defenders is a starting point and an end point as he joins in the press and attack higher upfield. In the past he'd stay deep and often deeper or in line with the CDs who were playing deep themselves.


Carra made some very good points when he analysed the match on Monday Night. He highlighted Lucas' defensive surges forward to press Toure. And that it creates a bit of space behind him that can be exploited. It is a calculated risk by Klopp who gives the orders and Lucas who picks the situations to advance.


So in a way "Lucas was Lucas" is not entirely true, but in another way it is in that the same match intelligence is at work with just more responsability and options to consider.


Another factor that makes Lucas even more effective than he was is that his fouling tends to be higher up the pitch. In the past the one popular criticism of him was that he gave away some dangerousness free kicks because our defenders would drop back and he would have to give chase to runners with lots of space ahead of them.

[Timbo's Goals]

Just like to correct a few misrepresentations which seem to have already become accepted fact.

We never dominated the game. We were sensational but we never dominated.

City's overall performance was nowhere near as poor as Pellegrino or the media have tried to represent. Defensively at the crucial times they were certainly a shambles and their defensive formation first half was cut to ribbons time and again. But their overall game wasn't anywhere near as bad as their defensive shortcomings made it seem and had Skrtel and Lovren been as shaky as City's central defenders or indeed as shaky as we've been in other games this season and last season we might have been looking at an entirely different game and result. But they weren't. They - and the rest of the team defensively - were strong, resolute and determined and resisted every City attack which provided the springboard for our scintillating attacking performance.

I stress this principally because to diss City so glibly - as Pellegrino and the media have done - detracts from the footballing masterclass that our team gave. As Klopp said it was by no means perfect but it was nevertheless truly outstanding and owed infinitely more to the majesty of our pressing, defending and attacking creativity than it did to any misnomer that City were poor per se.

[Giono]

More than one way to skin a cat. Everyone forgets about how much we ground out our trophies under rafa and houllier. There were some real horrible performances in the runs to european finals. There's no shame in them when you're on the ale and lifting silver.

Agree. Well-rounded teams win things. Arse post-Viera is a case in point.

It's good to have a bit of grit to keep you in the mind of the opposition. Why does the image of Stoke/WBA/Chelsea ring true? Reputation.

I would think that it can only help a pressing team if the opponent has a physical memory of the last time they were pressed.

[DanA]

Got to say the way City moved the was ball really poor and that started from the back four.  The defensive effort of the midfield in shielding the defense was also poor and in general the positioning of the CB pairing was terrible but I thought their problems were mostly to do with the two CB's. We didn't make things easy for them, we defended well, controlled space and attacked with purpose but a good CB pairing would have made things a lot tougher for us.

I'd also argue that we did dominate the game. We might not have controlled the lions share of possession be we controlled space and I'd argue having probably 8/10 of the best chances for the game is dominant. We played a big part in making City look shit but a fair bit of it in my eyes also falls on them.

There are a few things that I think stand out for me. Firstly it's going to be interesting to see how we reintroduce Benteke, Sturridge, Henderson and Sakho when fully fit. Who comes out and who goes straight in a lot of cases is a mystery to me. And regardless of what happens I almost see Ibe as a super sub whose spot is secure. His pace and power in the last 15-20 minutes is a really big asset to have and he should almost always be in consideration.

[Titi Camara]

Snip

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Some great writing there chaps, appreciate the time and effort

[BabuYagu]

Kolo Touré - our new DM?

Joking aside, it does seem a regular tactic for Klopp to bring on a centre-back for the last five minutes as a holding midfielder in games we are winning. I assume he wants the added aerial ability to counter teams trying to launch a few long balls into the mixer to see what happens.   

I still remember fondly a certain Sami Hyypia being tossed on against United to great effect. It´s funny as Ricardinho says, and as I highlighted in all 3 of my round table posts under Klopp, that we are working our way through all the CB´s at the club giving them a little run out at DM. Definitely see us adding another to the squad be it a Jordan Williams returning from loan or signing someone to play understudy/partner Lucas. We are lacking a Sebastian Kehl like player at the moment, hence the CB in DM thing.

Lovren - his best performance for us?

No, I think he’s played better on many occasions, under Rodgers and Klopp. I was quite surprised a couple of his ‘mistakes’ haven’t been brought up in the game thread considering the minute detail his game is often dissected to.

He is a good defender when played central, his problems come when he has to defend out wide and this is compounded when playing next to Moreno who can often be caught too far upfield. Klopp said he started with the team that he had the most time to work with during the international break and I think you could see the fruits of this with some disciplined performances from the likes of Can and Moreno, which meant Lovren wasn’t being dragged into those areas he doesn’t like to go.

I should probably say here, these questions aren´t my opinions, merely talking points I think would ignite interesting discussion. I agree with a lot of what you say here. I particularly remember at one point Lovren having to deal with De Bruyne and doing very well. He then immediately gave Can a bollocking about how it´s his responsibility to be there when Moreno is upfield. Which connects to my next question. He still wants to be our Stevie Gerrard replacement, a man who does everything, every game. When that isn´t what we need at all. We need someone disciplined first and foremost because if he leaves our flanks exposed like that, we will get done by it a lot. It´s our main vulnerability.

For me, longer term, I see the Lovren - Sakho partnership being a strong one. Sakho has no problems dealing with players in wide areas. Whereas on the right, Clyne rarely gets caught ahead of play meaning Lovren can focus on being the central defender in a 3 instead of the left back when one of our fullbacks is ahead of play. I also played CB & FB for a Sunday league side and trying to defend out wide on your weaker foot isn´t much fun at all. Unless it´s someone who likes to cut in all the time. Think Arbeloa v Messi all those years ago. So despite all this 'Lovren is a LCB' stuff, I´m certain he will thrive on the other side but merely has played on the left throughout his career due to having a well above average left peg compared to yur typical right footed CB

Is Emre Can starting to play like the midfielder we need?

He really put that poor performance against Palace with an assured and disciplined game against City. I’m still not sure what type of player he is and I still think there are areas of his game he struggles at such as his pressing which is very ‘all or nothing’. You can see the midfielders are being told to press the player closest to them and this is working well, but if say Milner or Lucas press the player and are beaten, they can quickly change direction and try to get back. When Can is beaten his inertia seems to take him several more yards before he can slow himself down enough to change direction. 

Is it a physique issue? Big, muscular guys like Can tend to lack that agility. It´s why center backs tend to make bad fullbacks as they are slow on the turn. Players like Ramos or even our own Gomez are a rare exception in that they possess that core strength and the agility to play either role. It´s why I am so VERY excited about Gomez future here.

As for Can, perhaps he needs to learn to press more like Henderson. When he comes back you will see what I mean.

Henderson - where?

In a midfield two (+ either Lucas, Can or Milner) with Sturridge/Benteke up front and an attacking trio of Lallana, Coutinho and Firmino behind. That team, especially if Sturridge is fit, is full of goals and creativity and would be match for anyone in the league. If we played that formation and those players could stay fit and healthy, I would have very high expectations for the remainder of the season.

For me, and I think Klopp also given he always played with 1, if not 2, destroyers in midfield, I think it will always be Lucas +1 except for when he is rested. Although with him suspended for the next league game we may very well see Henderson + Can next weekend depending on how he trains this week.

Lallana - He was MOTM for me. Is his output still a worry for you?

Ran as much as anyone, doesn’t stop all game but also has that silky touch on the ball and an eye for a pass. He may not be getting as many assists and goals as the others in the front line but he is contributing in other ways.

His dummy against Chelsea doesn’t count as an assist or a key pass but he made a massive contribution to that goal. Bombing from the half way line to try and get on the end of Benteke’s knock down against Chelsea and drawing defenders with him doesn’t show as anything in his stats but his unselfish work helped give Coutinho the space to score the second. His dummy against City, which was probably some of the best football of the game, doesn’t show as any stat. His corner against City from which we scored the fourth won’t show on any stat. But he’s ‘involved’ in all those goals and made a massive contribution.

I can understand when people say he needs to score more, which he does, but you can also see we’re making big improvements to make scoring easier with three or four players in the box when attacking. When Firmino was pulling the ball back for the first goal Lallana and Coutinho were both sprinting to that front post with Milner following up behind. We are really flooding the box much more now and if we continue to do that more goals will surely come for the attacking players.

Agree with all of this and very happy you took the time to highlight specific moments which are crucial to everything we do and yet have no recorded value statistically speaking. He is a dream of a player for Klopp. Literally my only worry about him was "he never runs beyond the forward". To see him do that more than anyone at the weekend warmed my heart. He will make a LOT of people eat their words this season and beyond.

How did you celebrate the 3rd?

Waiting for the referee’s whistle to go to disallow it for off-side, I thought it must have been so wasn’t getting too excited. It was a thing of beauty and to hear Gary Neville describe it as five-a-side football made it all the more pleasing.

Same.  I thought both Coutinhos (2nd) and Firmino´s (3rd) would both be ruled out. "Absolutely Incredible" through I´m sure gritted teeth, was the commentary highlight for me. You can tell he was putting aside bias for a moment and absolutely creaming himself over that goal. It was just delicious. From the moment Skrtel won the ball in our box to Firmino almost walking it into their goal. I´ve watched that 2 dozen times already and still find myself smiling like the village idiot at the end.

As for the Sterling miss, I did freeze for a second when I saw a City player closing down Milners back pass, but when I realised it was Sterling I immediately relaxed safe in the knowledge that he'd probably miss 

I was referring to the one in the second half. Need to watch it again to see what minute it was, but it was pretty much an open net and Sterling missed the ball. I just remember shouting "HA HA WANKER" at my computer at that moment. Which is weird as it´s a word I never use really, just came out of me. Like those gospel people who speak in tongues, but a little different. I really enjoyed watching him struggle to make any impact whatsoever on the game. And the main reason is he would be the PERFECT player to have in our forward 3 right now. If his head was right of course. It´s fine though, Klopp will just turn Ibe, Kent and Wilson into that sort of player instead

Of all the players enjoying a renaissance under Klopp I think I'm personally taking the most pleasure in Lucas. That snidey shithouse of a yellow card he took for pulling back aguero in the first half, and the way he complained vociferously afterwards 'it's my first one'. I love that. I love shithousery. I love a team with snide players who excel in the dark arts. I love to see the piss boiling in the opposition team and fans. I love that even our own fans might get frustated with a 'silly' free kick on the half way line that Lucas has conceded to stop them playing - people don't appreciate that snide shithousery like that is just as valuable as a good through ball or a shot on goal. I love defensive midfielders generally, I loved Mascherano and Sissoko when they were here, and didi too. I like players that stop players playing, there's real craft and art to it and Lucas is showing - again - he's a master of it on his day. He's playing as well as back in 2011 under Kenny. But now he's a leader and the most experienced member of the team. So here's to deliberately 'it was clumsy not dirty' tackles. Here's to 'he dived I didn't run into him' shouts. Here's to stopping them before they get started. Here's to Lucas Leiva.

Thanks for this. I talked a LOT about Lucas in the Chelsea round table. That clumsy "woopsie ref, I´m accidentally banging into Ramires here" which was deliberate as fuck was the highlight of that match for me. We were in a LOT of trouble then as Ramires has taken our entire midfield out of the game with one burst of pace. Lucas did it here again too. People don´t get that tactical fouls is the bread and butter of a real DM. Sure, winning tackles is great. But knowing when your team is fucked and stopping it at any means necessary is a wonderful skill for a midfielder to have. A goal from either of those moment may have entirely changed the course of those 2 games. Klopp will know that too.

[RedKenWah]

I think from a City view point, they set up as a 4 - 2 - 4 formation? Would i be right in thinking that? If so, that allowed us to totally expose them.

When you had a midfield pairing on Yaya Toure & Fernando and expect them to cover that middle of the pitch when you have Emre, Lucas & Milner, plus the interchanging work from Coutinho, Firminio & Lallana, that clearly helped. Allowing us to pin back Man City with Sterling, De Bruyne, & Navas having to do a lot more defensive work than they thought they would do was brilliant.

They'd used the wrong players, Yaya Toure in particular, who i rate very highly, but had no chance of protecting his back 4 with the onslaught that we did

That was a mistake from Man City and we exploited that. Do we expect other teams to play like that against us, i do hope so but i doubt it.

It was brilliant though so long may it continue.

I like the fact that we have a manager who will make slight changes depending on the side we face, but the mentality is to press them... not sit off them, not be a whimper towards them, but to go full throttle and in their face.. it's brilliant and it's the type of management i like and the type of football i like. It reminds me of Rafa the slight changes, adapting to opposition, but in a way better as well in that the type of football that Jurgen Klopp wants is full on stuff...

Another word on Man City, i don't expect them to play this bad again, and their next opponent will think they could do this and i expect that team to be put to the sword by them and i think slightly controversially and not meaning any offense by this bit, but the likes of Sagna & Mangala should have been rested from a City view point in light of what had happened... rightly they had other things on their mind and it showed... but again reverts back to my point of Pelegrini picked the wrong side...

[SerbianScouser]

Narrow formations really are brilliant for counter-attacking football aren`t they?

We`ve seen in the second part of 13/14 with a narrow formation that is 442d some scintillating counter-attacking stuff and now over these last 3 big away games to Spurs, Chelsea and City something just as good with a Christmas tree formation. Klopp hit the bulls eye by having Lallana and Coutinho in narrow positions just behind Firmino , quick transitions worked to a perfection - through ball after through ball, run in behind after run in behind. Pellegrini should count his lucky stars it was a week too early for Sturridge otherwise the carnage might have been 10 times greater.

I came to a conclusion that Henderson - Coutinho - Sturridge - Firmino will form the most fearsome counter-attacking unit in the country that will make teams so afraid to lose ball in their own half they won`t know how to cope with it all.

[the 92A]

Another top team playing really shit when they meet us,  we must be getting lucky again like we were in the seventies . City are the best team in the league and to hear people moan about their injuries and Pellegrini's team selection in music to my ears. Make no mistake we did a job on them. We stopped them playing and made them panic every time they tried to play out of defence, we upset their rhythm, cut out the supply to their danger men and frustrated them. Lovely to watch but as Timbo points out the result was no forgone conclusion, we worked for it and to watch Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana combine was beautiful. I love watching players such as these, as much as I love watching the likes of Silva, Aguero or Suarez, thats why I watch football, to admire players with skill and beauty in their feet but for those players to get a chance requires good team work and we saw plenty of it on Sunday.


Football management is often about smoke and mirrors, luck and instilling confidence. It's one part science, two parts witchcraft. Very rarely do you see a manager that transcends this, someone so ahead of his peers that he makes them look incompetent, incomplete in their actions. This is what Klopp did to Pellegrini, a good manager, not an incompetant by any means. Our manager is a Maradona, a Cruyff, a Messi of a manger and we have that rare beast managing us. Jurgen Klopp, someone who is going to make a real difference, despite our lack of ability to compete with the Billionaires throwing money at their teams, this fella gives us a chance of reaching our goal. I thought our chance had passed after the folly of the Yanks and Rafa's dismissal but this fella is the real deal. He has a philosophy, he sets his team up well but you know that if teams get onto the press and start bypassing the midfield, he'll just see it as another opportunity. He's not applying formulas mechanically he understands the game and the need to vary your hand to suit the situation. Listening to him saying we played well but can do better, knowing he means it. Listening to him addressing the physcology of the team at half time, nervous about being in the lead. This is just the start of a fantastic journey.


I read Bluemoon's post match thread and some of the idiots on there and it reminds me of some of the shorterm 'know nothing' knobheads you see on here after a game like the Palace defeat, people who can't see beyond a scoreline, that go up like a rocket and fall like a stick. Klopp is in a different league to most of his peers but we will go through some frustrating games where teams park the bus and we drop points, games we lose, it won't all be a straight line onwards and upwards but for me more important than the game itself is what it represents, This manager is going to give us a chance of getting back on our perch  and we should all just start to enjoy the ride, it will be bumpy but it's going to be a great experience if you see it through. Fantastic game of football.

[rickardinho1]

I think from a City view point, they set up as a 4 - 2 - 4 formation? Would i be right in thinking that? If so, that allowed us to totally expose them.

When you had a midfield pairing on Yaya Toure & Fernando and expect them to cover that middle of the pitch when you have Emre, Lucas & Milner, plus the interchanging work from Coutinho, Firminio & Lallana, that clearly helped. Allowing us to pin back Man City with Sterling, De Bruyne, & Navas having to do a lot more defensive work than they thought they would do was brilliant.

They'd used the wrong players, Yaya Toure in particular, who i rate very highly, but had no chance of protecting his back 4 with the onslaught that we did

That was a mistake from Man City and we exploited that. Do we expect other teams to play like that against us, i do hope so but i doubt it.

It was brilliant though so long may it continue.

I like the fact that we have a manager who will make slight changes depending on the side we face, but the mentality is to press them... not sit off them, not be a whimper towards them, but to go full throttle and in their face.. it's brilliant and it's the type of management i like and the type of football i like. It reminds me of Rafa the slight changes, adapting to opposition, but in a way better as well in that the type of football that Jurgen Klopp wants is full on stuff...

Another word on Man City, i don't expect them to play this bad again, and their next opponent will think they could do this and i expect that team to be put to the sword by them and i think slightly controversially and not meaning any offense by this bit, but the likes of Sagna & Mangala should have been rested from a City view point in light of what had happened... rightly they had other things on their mind and it showed... but again reverts back to my point of Pelegrini picked the wrong side...

I'd actually describe their setup in possession as a 2-4-4 rather, given that they pushed their fullbacks high and wide so much. It's one of the reasons why their CB's found it tough to find passes, as we cut off the supply centrally as well as the pass to wide areas. Had their fullbacks dropped 10 yards deeper it would have made it easier for their Cb's to give them the ball without Lallana or Coutinho cutting the pass off.

[Yorkykopite]

Yorykopite: "Lucas was Lucas"


That says a lot. But it must be said that he was more than the DM we are used to seeing over the last 8 seasons. He no longer just sits, rather the deep position in front of the defenders is a starting point and an end point as he joins in the press and attack higher upfield. In the past he'd stay deep and often deeper or in line with the CDs who were playing deep themselves.


Carra made some very good points when he analysed the match on Monday Night. He highlighted Lucas' defensive surges forward to press Toure. And that it creates a bit of space behind him that can be exploited. It is a calculated risk by Klopp who gives the orders and Lucas who picks the situations to advance.


So in a way "Lucas was Lucas" is not entirely true, but in another way it is in that the same match intelligence is at work with just more responsability and options to consider.

I saw Jamie Carragher's analysis and thought he was exaggerating the difference between Lucas v Man City and the Lucas we always see. He's never been one for 'sitting' in front of his defence and 'waiting for a player to come on to him'. In fact, ever since Benitez was here, his game has been about anticipation and getting a toe to the ball before his midfield opponent can turn on it. That's another definition of 'pressing' if you like. It's possibly true that he was doing this in slightly more advanced areas v Man City, but maybe not. I've certainly see Lucas follow his man into the other half of the pitch before if he thinks it's necessary. The classic example would be Lucas pressing the Napoli player and Gerrard mopping up the loose ball and scoring.

[SerbianScouser]

The classic example would be Lucas pressing the Napoli player and Gerrard mopping up the loose ball and scoring.

Scholes had tough time against him as well.

[rickardinho1]

On this, I don't know that Yaya Toure has ever had a good game against lucas. Maybe 2010, but that was a very, very different time.

I can't remember a single time Yaya has had a good game against us, with or without Lucas. Even in the games they won against us in recent years I recall him struggling to deal with Allen's nippyness.

[DanA]

Kolo Touré - our new DM?

For me this has to be his last season. I've absolutely loved having him here and he's made some pretty significant contributions but with his contract running down and Gomez/Ilori hopefully ready to step up I'm hoping we can do without.

Lovren - his best performance for us?

He's improved a lot from his first season. In my eyes he's still a little rash and that worries me. It was a good performance, I think he's had better but he's gone from expensive flop to expensive rotation player. I'll take that.

Is Emre Can starting to play like the midfielder we need?

I think he is, he's not as good as Jordan Henderson would be and maybe it's a temporary position but he's doing alright all things considered. 21 years old, he's still 4-5 years off his peak so I'll not complain, he's gaining experience, improving his craft and doing a reasonable job in the process. Not yet one of our best 11 but a good rotation player and improving.

Henderson - where?
In place of Can. He'll be a big improvement too, fitter, more agile, better touch and a really clever footballer (an area Can is hardly lacking). He'll make us more dangerous in front of goal with runs in behind the defense and do a better job getting into position to help out Moreno. I actually think he might be our most valuable player even if his talent doesn't jump out at you like Coutinho or Firmino's.

Lallana - He was MOTM for me. Is his output still a worry for you?
Not MOTM for me, well behind Firmino, Coutinho, Lucas and Skrtel but he was good....more than good. It keeps coming back to balance for me, he presses, has a good attitude and the tempo he's playing at is better but I still see a square peg for a round hole. I think he'll always lack output because he'll never have the pace to put himself in positions to get goals on transition. Sturridge is the master of this and I think once he starts featuring into Klopp's plans this team goes up a gear.  The quality of Lallana's finishing, his ability to get in behind the defense is always going to be a short coming out on the right side and in Klopps system I can't help but feel that leaves his long term future vulnerable even if he is a Klopp favourite at the moment.
 
How did you celebrate the 3rd?

The gif of the little kid with the fist and intense face.....a 35 y.o version of that.

That Sterling miss - schadenfreude at it´s finest?

Didn't even register. Losing him never hurt like losing Alonso, Suarez or even Masherano.  I'd rather what the money got us.....Firmino.

[xbugawugax]

Really thought that MNF analysis by carra and neville were decent but just not in depth enough. Both were pretty basic and Neville keep pointing out risk and reward and switching the play in beating the press. Certain parts do make sense though as in pointing out that Sagna should have been more attacking when Coutinho pickpocketed him for the first goal but then if he does, Moreno could/would have cut out the long ball from hart as well.


Kolo Touré - our new DM?

Kolo and Lovren in DM depends on game management. As Chelsea and City have big and strong players, it would make sense to bring either one in to shore up the defence in view of the aerial bombardment that was coming.

Lovren - his best performance for us?

One of Lovren best performance so far and long may it continue. A lot of posters here pointed out that he looks poor covering for Moreno out on the wing but I don't see it at all in this game. He was hardly beaten by De bruyne and Sterling when exposed on the wing.

Is Emre Can starting to play like the midfielder we need?

Can was brilliant I think. He always excels when the game is in front of him(other than the backheel) Strong, direct and linked up the play well in attack. The only negative was one instance where he got a bollocking from Lovren for not covering his position and Lovren had to cover his ass.

Henderson - where?

Henderson is a nice headache to have. It's a squad game we have loads of games coming up in the leagues and cups. Players need to rest and he can come in when the fixtures get a bit congested.

How did you celebrate the 3rd?

couldn't believe at first. Was expecting the ref to blow for offside

[Timbo's Goals]

Another top team playing really shit when they meet us,  we must be getting lucky again like we were in the seventies . City are the best team in the league and to hear people moan about their injuries and Pellegrini's team selection in music to my ears. Make no mistake we did a job on them. We stopped them playing and made them panic every time they tried to play out of defence, we upset their rhythm, cut out the supply to their danger men and frustrated them. Lovely to watch but as Timbo points out the result was no forgone conclusion, we worked for it and to watch Firmino, Coutinho and Lallana combine was beautiful. I love watching players such as these, as much as I love watching the likes of Silva, Aguero or Suarez, thats why I watch football, to admire players with skill and beauty in their feet but for those players to get a chance requires good team work and we saw plenty of it on Sunday.


Football management is often about smoke and mirrors, luck and instilling confidence. It's one part science, two parts witchcraft. Very rarely do you see a manager that transcends this, someone so ahead of his peers that he makes them look incompetent, incomplete in their actions. This is what Klopp did to Pellegrini, a good manager, not an incompetant by any means. Our manager is a Maradona, a Cruyff, a Messi of a manger and we have that rare beast managing us. Jurgen Klopp, someone who is going to make a real difference, despite our lack of ability to compete with the Billionaires throwing money at their teams, this fella gives us a chance of reaching our goal. I thought our chance had passed after the folly of the Yanks and Rafa's dismissal but this fella is the real deal. He has a philosophy, he sets his team up well but you know that if teams get onto the press and start bypassing the midfield, he'll just see it as another opportunity. He's not applying formulas mechanically he understands the game and the need to vary your hand to suit the situation. Listening to him saying we played well but can do better, knowing he means it. Listening to him addressing the physcology of the team at half time, nervous about being in the lead. This is just the start of a fantastic journey.


I read Bluemoon's post match thread and some of the idiots on there and it reminds me of some of the shorterm 'know nothing' knobheads you see on here after a game like the Palace defeat, people who can't see beyond a scoreline, that go up like a rocket and fall like a stick. Klopp is in a different league to most of his peers but we will go through some frustrating games where teams park the bus and we drop points, games we lose, it won't all be a straight line onwards and upwards but for me more important than the game itself is what it represents, This manager is going to give us a chance of getting back on our perch  and we should all just start to enjoy the ride, it will be bumpy but it's going to be a great experience if you see it through. Fantastic game of football.

Make no mistake - the post of someone who knows his stuff.

Nice one mate. Love the Cruyff/Maradona/Messi analogy. Maybe we should out of native Germanic courtesy throw in Beckenbauer as well. Spot on though.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

Got to say the way City moved the was ball really poor and that started from the back four.  The defensive effort of the midfield in shielding the defense was also poor and in general the positioning of the CB pairing was terrible but I thought their problems were mostly to do with the two CB's. We didn't make things easy for them, we defended well, controlled space and attacked with purpose but a good CB pairing would have made things a lot tougher for us.

I'd also argue that we did dominate the game. We might not have controlled the lions share of possession be we controlled space and I'd argue having probably 8/10 of the best chances for the game is dominant. We played a big part in making City look shit but a fair bit of it in my eyes also falls on them.

There are a few things that I think stand out for me. Firstly it's going to be interesting to see how we reintroduce Benteke, Sturridge, Henderson and Sakho when fully fit. Who comes out and who goes straight in a lot of cases is a mystery to me. And regardless of what happens I almost see Ibe as a super sub whose spot is secure. His pace and power in the last 15-20 minutes is a really big asset to have and he should almost always be in consideration.

I don't think in itself the 'dominance' aspect matters that much except in the sense that for me it does tend to detract a bit from what I'd laud as the magnificence of our overall performance by its implied denigration of City's overall performance. The fact is we were clearly by some distance the superior team on the day but the team we trounced still managed around 60% possession and also managed some decent attacks albeit without the magical flair evident within our own attacking play. 

I guess it's the definition of the term 'domination' which is where the "disagreement" - if that's the right word - lies here and certainly not the high quality of our own performance. Watching the match back, I just didn't see us dominate by my own definition of the term which is possibly coloured by watching our great 60's, 70's and 80's sides often dominating as much as 75-90% of possession against most sides we played.

 

So for me as much as we were fantastic on the day I just don't buy the 'domination' aspect.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I should probably say here, these questions aren´t my opinions, merely talking points I think would ignite interesting discussion. I agree with a lot of what you say here. I particularly remember at one point Lovren having to deal with De Bruyne and doing very well. He then immediately gave Can a bollocking about how it´s his responsibility to be there when Moreno is upfield. Which connects to my next question. He still wants to be our Stevie Gerrard replacement, a man who does everything, every game. When that isn´t what we need at all. We need someone disciplined first and foremost because if he leaves our flanks exposed like that, we will get done by it a lot. It´s our main vulnerability.

Yes, I know the exact moment you’re referring to. I think Klopp intimated something similar too when he said Can has to learn that if he hasn’t got the energy to get back then he shouldn’t go forward.

For me, longer term, I see the Lovren - Sakho partnership being a strong one. Sakho has no problems dealing with players in wide areas. Whereas on the right, Clyne rarely gets caught ahead of play meaning Lovren can focus on being the central defender in a 3 instead of the left back when one of our fullbacks is ahead of play. I also played CB & FB for a Sunday league side and trying to defend out wide on your weaker foot isn´t much fun at all. Unless it´s someone who likes to cut in all the time. Think Arbeloa v Messi all those years ago. So despite all this 'Lovren is a LCB' stuff, I´m certain he will thrive on the other side but merely has played on the left throughout his career due to having a well above average left peg compared to yur typical right footed CB

I have long argued Sakho and Lovren would make a good partnership as they’re both front footed, aggressive defenders. When they played together in Europe recently they were tackling players halfway inside the opposition half!! It’s high risk but high reward football.

Funny you should mention Clyne being a better full-back for Lovren as his positioning is better compared to Moreno, I watched Bertrand for a couple of games last week (Southampton and England) and thought how much he looks like a left footed Clyne. I remember Rodgers getting loads of stick when he wanted to buy him last season but he has developed into a good left back who is composed going forward too. I still have my reservations about Moreno but I will say he was solid against City and clearly benefited from two weeks of training with Klopp.

Is it a physique issue? Big, muscular guys like Can tend to lack that agility. It´s why center backs tend to make bad fullbacks as they are slow on the turn. Players like Ramos or even our own Gomez are a rare exception in that they possess that core strength and the agility to play either role. It´s why I am so VERY excited about Gomez future here.

As for Can, perhaps he needs to learn to press more like Henderson. When he comes back you will see what I mean. For me, and I think Klopp also given he always played with 1, if not 2, destroyers in midfield, I think it will always be Lucas +1 except for when he is rested. Although with him suspended for the next league game we may very well see Henderson + Can next weekend depending on how he trains this week.

Yes, I think it is a physical thing too. He’s a big strapping lad and must find it difficult to change direction quickly, it’s like comparing the turning circle of an oil tanker to a speed boat when you look at our other midfielders. 

Agree with all of this and very happy you took the time to highlight specific moments which are crucial to everything we do and yet have no recorded value statistically speaking. He is a dream of a player for Klopp. Literally my only worry about him was "he never runs beyond the forward". To see him do that more than anyone at the weekend warmed my heart. He will make a LOT of people eat their words this season and beyond.

My only criticism of Lallana recently has been I’ve noticed when he gets into the box, when the defence starts to step up he can be a bit lazy and find himself in an off-side position. The one against City when Clyne? Played him and he squared the ball for Coutinho was a recent example but he has done it a few times in other games (might have been our second or third goal against Chelsea where he’s standing in an off-side position when the goal is scored). Other than that his work-rate has been phenomenal. If you look at his average position against City he was virtually playing on top of Milner so he was really box-to-box.

Same.  I thought both Coutinhos (2nd) and Firmino´s (3rd) would both be ruled out. "Absolutely Incredible" through I´m sure gritted teeth, was the commentary highlight for me. You can tell he was putting aside bias for a moment and absolutely creaming himself over that goal. It was just delicious. From the moment Skrtel won the ball in our box to Firmino almost walking it into their goal. I´ve watched that 2 dozen times already and still find myself smiling like the village idiot at the end.

I think that’s why I enjoyed Neville’s commentary, there’s an obvious rivalry there but for that split second he could put all that to one side and appreciate what a good goal that was (although probably helped him it was against City).

[the 92A]

Make no mistake - the post of someone who knows his stuff.

Nice one mate. Love the Cruyff/Maradona/Messi analogy. Maybe we should out of native Germanic courtesy throw in Beckenbauer as well. Spot on though.

 

Cheers mate, I loved Beckenbauer such beautiful arrogance, still remember that 3-0  couldn't get in the Anfield Road and in the carpark my Dad bought a ticket for the Main Stand, told me to crouch right down as we went through the turnstile and told the fella on the turnstile, the lad will sit on me knee, Beckenbauer and Gerd Muller all favourites of mine  but what a night for Alun Evans and me

[fowlermagic]

Hats off to Klopp and the lads to seize the opportunity & run City ragged until they woke up to what we were doing to them. Memories flooded back of how we came use to fly out of the starter gate and go for the throat ...was it only 18 months ago, how time flies but to see the lads buzz around like bees was so refreshing. In some ways you wonder why players go stale / lose the will to do the work for a manager but since Klopp got here the players have dusted off their work boots and are earning their pay again.

For me the biggest change I have seen is the urgency to get at the opposition as before we be happy to tip tap the ball sideways with 9 or 10 players btw us and the goal. The chances of a mistake / a goal scoring chance are greatly enhanced if the opposition are floundering backwards as we are getting into spaces with speed and intent.

We can only improve on this as Klopp has more time to work on the players and if Lallana & Formino can take a leaf from Coutinhos book by adding more goals to their game then we should be laughing once Henderson, Sturrdge & Co return.

[rickardinho1]

Just re-watched the first half and here are some things I've noticed that haven't been highlighted so much yet:

Space behind Moreno

This is the area City had most success in, particularly with De Bruyne who got some joy making runs there as Lovren/Can/Moreno weren't as tight as they could be. As a result De Bruyne had City's highest involvement with 82 touches and 4 KP's.

Coutinho's off-ball effort

Coutinho's off the ball work was relentless. No surprise that he pulled his hamstring as a result really, but he really earned his goals and assists. Fantastic seeing such a talented player sacrifice himself for the team.

Shutting down Yaya

Yaya had almost the highest number of touches or City in the game despite playing only 45 mins. However, he was massively neutralised and forced to drop deep by 1-2 players always sprinting to close Yaya down and hurry his pass if he found himself receiving the ball near the halfway line.

Squeezing the sideline when they get the ball wide.

Neville highlighted on MNF that City needed to get the ball wide more often, but as it happens Kolarov had 79 touches (2nd behind DeBruyne's 82), and Sagna 61 (5th), which clearly shows that City DID in fact get the ball wide. Their effectiveness was curtailed by our efficient pressing though, as Sagna and Kolarov were forced into bad passes repeatedly, as shown by their poor 68% and 69% pass accuracy respectively, making them the worst two for City apart from Hart.

Milner

Special mention to Milner, who completely locked down our right side and helped reduce Kolarov's effectiveness. His 8 successful tackles set the tone for us.

[BabuYagu]

Squeezing the sideline when they get the ball wide.

Neville highlighted on MNF that City needed to get the ball wide more often, but as it happens Kolarov had 79 touches (2nd behind DeBruyne's 82), and Sagna 61 (5th), which clearly shows that City DID in fact get the ball wide. Their effectiveness was curtailed by our efficient pressing though, as Sagna and Kolarov were forced into bad passes repeatedly, as shown by their poor 68% and 69% pass accuracy respectively, making them the worst two for City apart from Hart.

Glad you brought this up. If you watch Dortmund, they would force teams to play the ball around their midfield. So almost all opposition attacks had to be started by the full backs. The ball going to the full backs became an important trigger and they have to be shut down relentlessly (see Coutinho´s and Milner´s work rate as you mentioned) to force rushed and long aerial passes which are easier for the defence to deal with.

It´s a tactic Rafa used to utilize too. Remember that 4-1 game at Old Trafford. Watch how we would funnel the play our to Ronaldo in particular and then completely box him in with Aurelio, Lucas and Reira up against the byline. Sides who like to aggressively press like to use the byline as it acts as a another defender completely shutting down one side for the player.

However, if you fail to close down the full back (see Crystal Palace 3-3 under Rodgers) and allow him to pick a player out centrally or a runner into the box, then you are in trouble. This is why rotating your wide forwards to make sure they are always able to press effectively is so vital to everything we do. Likewise, a forward who won´t press effectively prevents us funnelling play out wide as the center backs can either carry the ball forward or have easy passes through our first line of midfielders.

I never worried we would get the pressing game right. Our recruitment seemed geared to get us players perfect for this (well.... the TC ones anyway ).... my biggest surprise under Klopp so far is how much difference he has already made WITH the ball and how players who I never seen running beyond the forward are doing so with such frequency. Also the marked difference between calm and composure in possession now compared to the slow possession around the box we saw the 6 months previous to this. Our movement now is on another level.

[rickardinho1]

Here's a decent article from when Klopp took over that I just came across, discussing what we might see once Klopp gets things up to speed.

It's interesting to read  the article with hindsight as it's amazing to see that Klopp has already managed to implement loads of the tactics discussed.

www.thisisanfield.com/2015/10/liverpool-jurgen-klopp-tactical-analysis-wide-midfield-forwards/

[12C]

On this, I don't know that Yaya Toure has ever had a good game against lucas. Maybe 2010, but that was a very, very different time.

There was a point in the first half when it was 0-1 and Yaya dropped back in between the CBs and started trying to quarterback it. He pinged a couple of long diagonals iirc, (something Neville was saying they never tried  ). The problem was he was so deep he was being pressed by our front three rather than the midfielders. He will rip most teams apart if you give him time, but every time he got the ball there was a player rushing him, making him play the hurried pass which more often than not went astray. Once he was shut down we went three up. I feel Pellegrini was exercising an element of damage limitation when he hooked him. The Fernando/inho pairing are more about destruction than creating chances, they look good with Silva or Yaya able to pull the strings. City were stifled and attempted to shore up the stable door far to late.
From our point of view, the thing for me was the number of red shirts in and around the box. When Mangler scored there were two red shirts waiting behind him. On some occasions there were 5 red shirts flooding their box. This must really suck the life out of a defence when their own midfield is stuck out on the wings waiting for long balls.
Btw did anyone catch the look Klopp gave the post match interviewer, when he asked him a really inane question about being happy his tactics had worked. It was what my granny would have called 'old fashioned', I thought he looked at the guy as though he had two heads, paused long enough to make the point that the question was stupid and then carried on. I feel he has a healthy scorn for some of the journos already

[rickardinho1]

Glad you brought this up. If you watch Dortmund, they would force teams to play the ball around their midfield. So almost all opposition attacks had to be started by the full backs. The ball going to the full backs became an important trigger and they have to be shut down relentlessly (see Coutinho´s and Milner´s work rate as you mentioned) to force rushed and long aerial passes which are easier for the defence to deal with.

It´s a tactic Rafa used to utilize too. Remember that 4-1 game at Old Trafford. Watch how we would funnel the play our to Ronaldo in particular and then completely box him in with Aurelio, Lucas and Reira up against the byline. Sides who like to aggressively press like to use the byline as it acts as a another defender completely shutting down one side for the player.

However, if you fail to close down the full back (see Crystal Palace 3-3 under Rodgers) and allow him to pick a player out centrally or a runner into the box, then you are in trouble. This is why rotating your wide forwards to make sure they are always able to press effectively is so vital to everything we do. Likewise, a forward who won´t press effectively prevents us funnelling play out wide as the center backs can either carry the ball forward or have easy passes through our first line of midfielders.

I never worried we would get the pressing game right. Our recruitment seemed geared to get us players perfect for this (well.... the TC ones anyway ).... my biggest surprise under Klopp so far is how much difference he has already made WITH the ball and how players who I never seen running beyond the forward are doing so with such frequency. Also the marked difference between calm and composure in possession now compared to the slow possession around the box we saw the 6 months previous to this. Our movement now is on another level.

This is what I was getting at. Thanks for filling in with more detail.

There's an example of Dortmund's tackles chart from their 4-1 win vs Real Madrid in the article below. Noticeably most of the tackles are in wide areas.

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2013/04/25/dortmund4-1realmadrid/dortmund-tackling/

There are better examples but I think this illustrates how Dortmund used to funnel teams to the wide areas and use the sideline as a defender as you say, much like basketball teams do with a full-court and especially half-court presses.

[UntouchableLuis]

I think there were several reasons why we had so much success at the weekend.

1) City were missing 3 key players/they weren't fully fit:

Kompany, despite what people may tell you, is a leader and City's best centre back. City's heads dropped after the first goal - Kompany wouldn't have allowed it. Silva is the player that makes them tick - it's like if you took Coutinho out of our team at the minute. Aguero could only manage 60 minutes and he managed to score in them!

2) Aguero coming back didn't necessarily benefit KDB or Sterling. I think Bony actually suited those two players more - Sterling suffered from playing-former-club-after-leaving-in-disgrace. I knew he wouldn't be able to affect the game. When Milner played it back to him he showed how mentally weak he can be sometimes by trying to lay it off for Aguero rather than take the chance himself.

3) We pressed extremely well and countered extremely well. For us to be effective we need all the parts of the puzzle to come together at once and we saw a beautiful harmony between Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino. I have no idea how Firmino knew where to find Coutinho for our second goal; maybe it was just good fortune but he seemed to know Coutinho would be there waiting to tap home.

4) Lucas kept Yaya Toure out the game. If Silva isn't there and Yaya Toure can't affect the game then City can be stopped fairly easily.

-------------

It was a masterclass in how to play away from home against the 'top' teams. I never understood why we played with such fear at these grounds under Rodgers. It's actually what teams have been doing at Anfield over the last decade - playing with no fear and getting results. Once you silence a home crowd and score an early goal there's no reason why you can't win big anywhere if you have the quality to do it.

Going forward is the key now - we have so many winnable fixtures coming up and we're aided by the return of Sturridge and Henderson. If we're going to make a go for top 4 then from now until new year is the crucial period. I'm optimistic.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

For the City whingers who are harking on about missing key players, well, er, Hendo, Sturridge, Sakho... We weren't the team with a £45M winger and a £32M central defender on the pitch. We had the ugly ducklings, the write-offs, the nearly-there men. But it was a team, playing in almost perfect harmony for one of the best managers on the planet. Make no mistake, we are punching a class or two above our weight, but this performance was after 6 weeks, 6 weeks, of Klopp's influence. I cannot wait to see what happens in a year or two.

I could eulogise about how Coutinho was virtually unplayable, and how Firmino has pretty much announced himself to the league, but I'd like to speak about Emre Can. His flexibility is almost his weakness, so I'm fascinated to see where he ends up landing within the team in the next couple of years. Some of his runs on Saturday were almost Gerrard-esque. Now I know he ain't anywhere near Stevie's level, but if he adds a touch more speed, a touch more game intelligence, passing and goals, well, we've got the real deal on our hands boys and girls. This kid has a big future ahead of him, and I can't think of a better manager for him to develop under.

Anyway, that's that shitty run of away games done and dusted. One away defeat to the so-called top 6, and we still have the pleasure of belting them all at Anfield later in the season. Now it's time to bring on the cannon fodder. So, without wishing to derail the thread, anyone fancy a top 4 finish?

[elbow]

Why would anyone ever skin a cat? 

Boredom? Hunger?