Topic: Nobby's Green Thread. A great party with great ideas. A great bunch of lads!

[duvva 💅]

Of course it's possible, but it's basic game theory. Say the Lib Dems are the party that most closely align with your views but you really, really dislike the Tories, a vote for the Lib Dems is a gamble whereby when you vote for your favourite party you risk the party that you want the least getting in. So you predict that if you instead switch your vote to Labour enough of your fellow voters will back Labour too and the Tories will be kept out. You end up not getting what you wanted but you also don't get what you really didn't want.

This video explains how FPTP essentially forces a 2 party system in the long run. Which 2 parties it is can occasionally change (see the Liberals being replaced by Labour in the early 20th century) but the result is always 2 parties which can get in and a bunch of smaller ones that can't.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/s7tWHJfhiyo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/s7tWHJfhiyo</a>

Thanks but these links never show up for me on my phone

So it’s just down to that tactical element. So would a change to proportional rep or whatever the other option is make a big difference?

It still feels that most people only think Tory or Labour, it’s almost ingrained. I think I’d just hope (naively) people vote for what they believe in and see where that leaves us.

If the tories are still getting in, clearly there’ll need to be a cull. Like with the badgers

Sorry didn’t mean to derail the thread but it helps in understanding another reason why people don’t vote green.

We just need more people to care about those things enough to vote for them, than not, which it amazingly seems is not human nature

[Riquende]

Sorry didn’t mean to derail the thread but it helps in understanding another reason why people don’t vote green.

Anything that applies to the LDs goes twice as much at least for the Greens.

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This is an egregiously simplified example of the problem, but imagine a country with an electorate of just 5 voters. 2 of those are proper capitalists and the other 3 have socialist outlooks.

Election time rolls around and one of the capitalists announces they're standing for election on a broad platform. The other capitalist overlooks their differences, is happy enough be represented by the first and so doesn't stand, ready to vote for the b'stard party.

Meanwhile the 3 socialists all squabble about what's important. One socialist insists on an environmental matters being front and centre. Another doesn't care much about that but wants to stop wars and disarm the nuclear deterrent. The last socialist isn't concerned about either matter but has strong feelings about social justice.

In the end, the 3 cannot agree and stand individually, voting for themselves exclusively. The two capitalists win and none of the socialists get anything like what they want, each socialist blaming the other two for allowing the b'stards in.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Thanks but these links never show up for me on my phone

Links, or embedded video?

Here's a link for the video. Hopefully, this will work for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

[Nobby Reserve]

Anything that applies to the LDs goes twice as much at least for the Greens.

------------------

This is an egregiously simplified example of the problem, but imagine a country with an electorate of just 5 voters. 2 of those are proper capitalists and the other 3 have socialist outlooks.

Election time rolls around and one of the capitalists announces they're standing for election on a broad platform. The other capitalist overlooks their differences, is happy enough be represented by the first and so doesn't stand, ready to vote for the b'stard party.

Meanwhile the 3 socialists all squabble about what's important. One socialist insists on an environmental matters being front and centre. Another doesn't care much about that but wants to stop wars and disarm the nuclear deterrent. The last socialist isn't concerned about either matter but has strong feelings about social justice.

In the end, the 3 cannot agree and stand individually, voting for themselves exclusively. The two capitalists win and none of the socialists get anything like what they want, each socialist blaming the other two for allowing the b'stards in.

Applying that analogy to the current situation, we have one of the 'socialists' saying to the other four voters "Hey, I've adopted a big chunk of the capitalist policies on economics and tax, but also a little bit of environmentalism and a little bit of social justice so all of you should vote for me!"

One of the capitalists says "No way! I don't believe there should be any social justice or environmentalism"

The capitalist says "OK, I'll vote for you"

One socialist says "Hang on, you adopting the capitalist policies removes all that united us socialists in the first place, so I'm not going to vote for you"

The other socialists says "Stopping the capitalists is all that matters, so I'll vote for you and ignore that you are a capitalist in all but name"

[reddebs]

This makes more sense to be in here rather than the Labour thread.

quote author=Nobby Re-serves last year’s mince pies the bad mingebag link=topic=355081.msg19182312#msg19182312 date=1701688574]

Increasing taxes on the wealthiest, including a 'Land Value Tax'
Amalgamating NI and Income Tax so that everyone pays the same rate (NI not payable on 'unearned income' like dividends)
Stamp Duty on share sale profits
Introduction of Universal Basic Income
Rejoin the EU
Huge programme of social house building (green houses)
Raft of legislation to force housebuilders to make homes 'green' (insulation, windows, carbon-neutral, solar, heat pumps, etc)
Lower voting age to 16
End PFI
Curb private sector involvement in the provision of public services
Funding for credit unions & creation of National Investment Bank
Strict limits on interest rates charged by commercial lenders
Curbing the size of banks, toughening the split between consumer & investments banking sides
Ending ability of private banks to control creation/supply of money, bringing that back into state control
Legalise drugs

For starters... 


IF you want to wade through everything, it's here:

https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/
[/quote]

[Nobby Reserve]

This makes more sense to be in here rather than the Labour thread.

quote author=Nobby Re-serves last year’s mince pies the bad mingebag link=topic=355081.msg19182312#msg19182312 date=1701688574]

Increasing taxes on the wealthiest, including a 'Land Value Tax'
Amalgamating NI and Income Tax so that everyone pays the same rate (NI not payable on 'unearned income' like dividends)
Stamp Duty on share sale profits
Introduction of Universal Basic Income
Rejoin the EU
Huge programme of social house building (green houses)
Raft of legislation to force housebuilders to make homes 'green' (insulation, windows, carbon-neutral, solar, heat pumps, etc)
Lower voting age to 16
End PFI
Curb private sector involvement in the provision of public services
Funding for credit unions & creation of National Investment Bank
Strict limits on interest rates charged by commercial lenders
Curbing the size of banks, toughening the split between consumer & investments banking sides
Ending ability of private banks to control creation/supply of money, bringing that back into state control
Legalise drugs

For starters... 


IF you want to wade through everything, it's here:

https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/

You asked the question!! I just gave you a reply.

 

[reddebs]

You asked the question!! I just gave you a reply.

 

I know and thanks.

I've not commented yet as I've not researched the policies but first impressions are that it's easy to talk when there's zero chance of being elected and have to actually fulfil them.

[Sangria]

I know and thanks.

I've not commented yet as I've not researched the policies but first impressions are that it's easy to talk when there's zero chance of being elected and have to actually fulfil them.

What might be an interesting study is what the Greens have done where they've been in power. Not that this will necessarily change the discussion. I posted the SNP and Labour amendments, Tepid posted the context of the Thatcher quote, and in both cases, and in both cases people ignored the actual information in favour of continuing to discuss what they think the relevant people said rather than what they'd actually said. But actually looking at the record of the Greens in power would at least give us something to look at.

[reddebs]

What might be an interesting study is what the Greens have done where they've been in power. Not that this will necessarily change the discussion. I posted the SNP and Labour amendments, Tepid posted the context of the Thatcher quote, and in both cases, and in both cases people ignored the actual information in favour of continuing to discuss what they think the relevant people said rather than what they'd actually said. But actually looking at the record of the Greens in power would at least give us something to look at.

Where are the Greens in power mate?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Where are the Greens in power mate?

I'm tempted to suggest the RoI.

[Sangria]

Where are the Greens in power mate?

Do they control or part control any councils? They have 1 MP.

[reddebs]

I'm tempted to suggest the RoI.

From what I've seen they're all coalitions rather than fully in power so they've no actual control to be able to really change things. 

Would have been interesting to see if they could implement their plans and if they genuinely make a difference.

[reddebs]

Do they control or part control any councils? They have 1 MP.

Mid Suffolk but only since May so not really had time to effect any real change though looking at how badly they've been effected by flooding this autumn they've a lot of work to do 🤔

[duvva 💅]

Mid Suffolk but only since May so not really had time to effect any real change though looking at how badly they've been effected by flooding this autumn they've a lot of work to do 🤔

That’s where I live. We did have some flooding but nowhere near as bad as other parts of Suffolk or the country. Too early for any real impacts but we can hope.

Unfortunately we have a Tory MP with a large majority though

[reddebs]

That’s where I live. We did have some flooding but nowhere near as bad as other parts of Suffolk or the country. Too early for any real impacts but we can hope.

Unfortunately we have a Tory MP with a large majority though

It's the local policies that make a tangible impact though as they can focus on improving their communities rather than having to follow government or party policy.

[duvva 💅]

It's the local policies that make a tangible impact though as they can focus on improving their communities rather than having to follow government or party policy.

I know, I just meant that while they have our local council, nationally we’re Tory. My dream would be this country fuckin off tories and Labour and the rest and thinking about the environment, the planet, everyone but the rich, as well as local community but it’s not gonna happen is it. People don’t seem to see it as the best way to help themselves and others (I’m not sure most people think of anyone outside of their immediate family anymore in this respect)

[Jiminy Cricket]

From what I've seen they're all coalitions rather than fully in power so they've no actual control to be able to really change things. 

Would have been interesting to see if they could implement their plans and if they genuinely make a difference.

It is just my attempt at a small (very small) joke.

More seriously, I am not aware of Greens being in power anywhere, except as part of a coalition. And as others have pointed out a few posts back, some of that has been catastrophic (Germany, and the closure of nuclear power stations).

[Red-Soldier]

From what I've seen they're all coalitions rather than fully in power so they've no actual control to be able to really change things. 

Would have been interesting to see if they could implement their plans and if they genuinely make a difference.

I would suggest that, if not for the Greens, environmental policy wouldn't be where it is today.  So yes, they have made a huge difference, simply by changing the narrative. 

Politicians are mainly followers, not leaders.  Public opinions can shape government policy. 

Why do you think political parties are now talking about sewage pollution.  That idea didn't come from within the party.

[reddebs]

I know, I just meant that while they have our local council, nationally we’re Tory. My dream would be this country fuckin off tories and Labour and the rest and thinking about the environment, the planet, everyone but the rich, as well as local community but it’s not gonna happen is it. People don’t seem to see it as the best way to help themselves and others (I’m not sure most people think of anyone outside of their immediate family anymore in this respect)

I agree with that too.  How wonderful would that be for everyone to think of others first ☺️

[Sangria]

I would suggest that, if not for the Greens, environmental policy wouldn't be where it is today.  So yes, they have made a huge difference, simply by changing the narrative. 

Politicians are mainly followers, not leaders.  Public opinions can shape government policy. 

Why do you think political parties are now talking about sewage pollution.  That idea didn't come from within the party.

I'd say that David Attenborough, alone, has done more than the Green political group has done in total. The UK's position, and arguably to some extent the western world's position, on environmental policy, has been overwhelmingly due to Attenborough.

[reddebs]

I would suggest that, if not for the Greens, environmental policy wouldn't be where it is today.  So yes, they have made a huge difference, simply by changing the narrative. 

Politicians are mainly followers, not leaders.  Public opinions can shape government policy. 

Why do you think political parties are now talking about sewage pollution.  That idea didn't come from within the party.

It's great that they are but not if that's all it is. 

Talk doesn't achieve anything if there is no action and we all know how good politicians, especially Tory ones, are at talking up what the electorate want to hear.  It's how they keep getting voted back in.

[Sangria]

Mid Suffolk but only since May so not really had time to effect any real change though looking at how badly they've been effected by flooding this autumn they've a lot of work to do 🤔

If that's one council where they have part control, then we can see over a longer period of time what their contingent has done in power.

[classycarra]

I would suggest that, if not for the Greens, environmental policy wouldn't be where it is today.  So yes, they have made a huge difference, simply by changing the narrative. 

Politicians are mainly followers, not leaders.  Public opinions can shape government policy. 

Why do you think political parties are now talking about sewage pollution.  That idea didn't come from within the party.

Would be interested in some examples where the Greens have been credited with changing the narrative.

I'd disagree with your assertion that sewage pollution is now high on the political agenda because of Greens. Can't say I noticed any noise or groundswell of rising public or political discourse about it over the past decade linked to any Greens. I'd personally say it's now on the agenda because it started to affect more people, and got more traction in the press and that snowballed as awareness was raised until it couldn't be ignored by the government.

After a quick google, I can see the Greens had a policy on this back in 2012 (link below) - i expect it goes further back than that. If it was the case the Green's are the reason it's on the agenda, how come it's taken a minimum of over 8 years (and apparently not very much media coverage) for their message to have been taken up?

Example: Policy MC402 here https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/our-policies/long-term-goals/marine-and-coastal/

[reddebs]

Would be interested in some examples where the Greens have been credited with changing the narrative.

I'd disagree with your assertion that sewage pollution is now high on the political agenda because of Greens. Can't say I noticed any noise or groundswell of rising public or political discourse about it over the past decade linked to any Greens. I'd personally say it's now on the agenda because it started to affect more people, and got more traction in the press and that snowballed as awareness was raised until it couldn't be ignored by the government.

After a quick google, I can see the Greens had a policy on this back in 2012 (link below) - i expect it goes further back than that. If it was the case the Green's are the reason it's on the agenda, how come it's taken a minimum of over 8 years (and apparently not very much media coverage) for their message to have been taken up?

Example: Policy MC402 here https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/our-policies/long-term-goals/marine-and-coastal/

Possibly due to more people holidaying in the UK since COVID that it's being highlighted more too.

Surfers against Sewage have been campaigning for decades with not much media attention due to the small numbers.

[Elmo!]

Where are the Greens in power mate?

They're the junior partner in coalition with the SNP in the Scottish Government. That does mean they don't get a huge amount of their policies in place, but they got their policy of free bus travel for under 22;s, they're pushing through their circular economy bill and also one of their MSPs is pushing though a bill on safe zones around sexual heath clinics banning anti abortion protests there. That's just the stuff off the top of my head without looking it up.