Author Topic: anfield road stand  (Read 245603 times)

Online Peter McGurk

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #440 on: July 17, 2016, 09:51:31 pm »
Because of the potential views over the park, you could do something quite cool with the ARE with a bit of thought. Something a bit like the views over Central Park in NY. Residential has been mentioned before or maybe conference space, office space. I reckon they have something in mind.

There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #441 on: July 17, 2016, 09:53:24 pm »
There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.

Actually, you could be right - that always looked a bit odd to me. Trying to get some additional return out of the development.
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Online Peter McGurk

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #442 on: July 17, 2016, 10:05:45 pm »
I suppose it depends on approach FSG are taking to the business case. If the case covers both stands under the premise that there is scope for reasonable expansion to a sweet spot of just under 60k then it wouldn't necessarily be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but recognising that the stadium itself is a whole and being treated as such. FSG may have made their decision based on the both stands combined and are content to live with slightly reduced profit than if only the Main Stand had been developed.

The stadium is at arm's length to FSG. They will get their money back come what may.

As far as the club is concerned, they need to max the income from every seat to pay FSG back. The club is paying the Main stand back in 5 years. To cover it from the extra income means an average knocking on £3,000 per seat - a huge ask. As it happens there'll be nothing of Peter left over for Paul to rob - at least not for five years.

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« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 10:08:40 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #443 on: July 17, 2016, 11:35:29 pm »
There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.

Could it have been to test the water for something a bit more substantial?

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #444 on: July 17, 2016, 11:44:59 pm »
There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.

Do you mean the whole ARE plans were just for show Peter?

Offline whiteboots

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #445 on: July 18, 2016, 11:40:13 am »
There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.
Or how half- hearted?

The consented ARE will have a bigger capacity than the Kop. That comes with opportunity, and risk.

There is nothing marginal about  a 4000 increase in capacity, at £50 a ticket (I wish) generating £5m a season from ticket sales alone over 25 games. Factor in ticket price inflation, PL Rights inflation, some premium seating, significantly enhanced food/drink sales, and naming rights and it is an easy step.

Offline Anfield89

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #446 on: July 18, 2016, 12:11:35 pm »
Or how half- hearted?

The consented ARE will have a bigger capacity than the Kop. That comes with opportunity, and risk.

There is nothing marginal about  a 4000 increase in capacity, at £50 a ticket (I wish) generating £5m a season from ticket sales alone over 25 games. Factor in ticket price inflation, PL Rights inflation, some premium seating, significantly enhanced food/drink sales, and naming rights and it is an easy step.

I don't think any Kop tickets are priced at £50 and the prices would have to be similar as your getting the same view.

Offline whiteboots

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #447 on: July 18, 2016, 12:14:21 pm »
I don't think any Kop tickets are priced at £50 and the prices would have to be similar as your getting the same view.
I used a low indicative value for the purposes of easy sums.

You are quite right that ticket revenue will exceed £50 a seat.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #448 on: July 18, 2016, 12:52:55 pm »
I used a low indicative value for the purposes of easy sums.

You are quite right that ticket revenue will exceed £50 a seat.

That's not what I meant. If Annie road gets done the price of the tickets in that end would have to not exactly but be somewhere close to mirroring the Kop as your getting a almost identical view point.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #449 on: July 18, 2016, 01:05:04 pm »
Don't get why we place so much on return on investment being paid off so quickly. It will get paid off and there are lots of ways to increase the commercial aspect. Surely FSG have raked in a mountain of profit, and can see the sense in committing to this now. Don't waste time. Other clubs so far in PL to commit, or have already are;

West Ham at 60k. Yes poor example, but it's what we got to compete against.
Spurs at £61k, and building even though corporate seats inside whole stadium are lower than ours when new main stand opens! Don't say London, because Newcastle, Sunderland have had a bigger stadium than ours for years.
ManCity - permission to go beyond 60k.
ManUtd - at 76k
Chelsea - to go to 60k. Matchday income already higher than ours.

The bottom line isn't the quick return. I really can't see why an asset like a new ARE wouldn't be worth it's weight to FSG. Increases club value further, increases space in ground, increases chances of more tickets, more catering take, more merchandise.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #450 on: July 18, 2016, 01:41:06 pm »
paying it off ASAP is important if u have visions of selling up

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #451 on: July 18, 2016, 01:54:04 pm »
paying it off ASAP is important if u have visions of selling up

Not really.
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #452 on: July 18, 2016, 03:09:31 pm »
I'll be shocked if the ARE isn't developed to be honest.  The club/supporters will be paying for it anyway rather than FSG so why wouldn't you go ahead when that's what the majority of fans want?   It would be a modest redevelopment compared to the main stand so it shouldn't impact our transfer/wages budget too much.  It's not as if we're competing at the top end of the market for players anyway and that's more down to FSG's strategy than lack of funds.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #453 on: July 18, 2016, 03:19:25 pm »
I'll be shocked if the ARE isn't developed to be honest.  The club/supporters will be paying for it anyway rather than FSG so why wouldn't you go ahead when that's what the majority of fans want?   It would be a modest redevelopment compared to the main stand so it shouldn't impact our transfer/wages budget too much.  It's not as if we're competing at the top end of the market for players anyway and that's more down to FSG's strategy than lack of funds.

I agree with you partly, and I don't think there's any reason to believe that they have changed their minds about it. But FSG are mostly hedge fund managers. They make money by lending at high rates of interest to high risk clients. Lending money to the club interest free costs them in the income they would otherwise be making by lending that cash elsewhere.

They are happy to do this (up to a point), presumably because they want the prestige, or they see it as investment in an asset, but it is costing them a lot, no question about it.
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #454 on: July 18, 2016, 03:25:05 pm »
The potential is there to make that a great goal stand, with a fantastic view of the park behind it, it has the possibilities to be immense inside and out.
Imagine being on the top tier at HT looking through a row of tinted windows over the park with your pint!

For too long the Annie Road has been the poor relation in our stadium design, it's utter shite at the moment, time it deserved better.
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #455 on: July 18, 2016, 03:37:07 pm »
The potential is there to make that a great goal stand, with a fantastic view of the park behind it, it has the possibilities to be immense inside and out.
Imagine being on the top tier at HT looking through a row of tinted windows over the park with your pint!

For too long the Annie Road has been the poor relation in our stadium design, it's utter shite at the moment, time it deserved better.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #456 on: July 18, 2016, 03:38:24 pm »
I agree with you partly, and I don't think there's any reason to believe that they have changed their minds about it. But FSG are mostly hedge fund managers. They make money by lending at high rates of interest to high risk clients. Lending money to the club interest free costs them in the income they would otherwise be making by lending that cash elsewhere.

They are happy to do this (up to a point), presumably because they want the prestige, or they see it as investment in an asset, but it is costing them a lot, no question about it.

I hear what you're saying, but most of these guys seem to be retired and have their fortunes made.  If they were looking to maximize every revenue stream from the club then there's no way they'd have given us an interest free loan for the main stand.  That might have cost them money, but it's relatively small beans compared to what they'll make if they sell the club, or, as seems more likely, a large minority share in it.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #457 on: July 18, 2016, 04:20:14 pm »
There are 8 (?) apartments in the outline consent. I think this is just a sign of how marginal the whole thing is. It's a bit desperate or paper exercise.

I think it's more a reflection of how much space this new ARE will create.

 If you don't use that space for flats then what viable alternatives are there?

The main stand and centenary stand appear to meet any corporate needs we may have. A hotel is unlikely to be viable on that sort of scale and in that location. The club is unlikely to abandon it's offices in the centre of town.

Those aside what else is there? We ain't going to rebuild the Vernon Sangster.......

A couple of million for selling 8 odd flats seems a total no brainer rather than an act of desperation unless I'm missing an obvious alternative

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #458 on: July 18, 2016, 05:29:15 pm »
I hear what you're saying, but most of these guys seem to be retired and have their fortunes made.  If they were looking to maximize every revenue stream from the club then there's no way they'd have given us an interest free loan for the main stand.  That might have cost them money, but it's relatively small beans compared to what they'll make if they sell the club, or, as seems more likely, a large minority share in it.

The point is, they have invested a huge amount into the club, which they could very easily have invested elsewhere for much greater profit. They are wealthy men, but wealthy men never really retire from accumulating wealth, and I assure you that each and every one of them will have multiple ventures currently increasing their personal fortunes by eye-watering figures on a regular basis.

If they were only interested in the club as a money making scheme, it's a really poor choice of investment for experienced hedge fund managers. They could already have made a lot more from what they have put into the club than they would ever be likely to see back, even if they did want to sell all or part of the club.

The appeal of something like Liverpool to FSG has been much discussed here, of course, and the only logical answer appears to be that it is a prestige vehicle for them. Owning Liverpool FC opens doors. It raises their profile (they were previously well known among baseball fans, but they are still relatively small fish in the football world) which in turn leads to further opportunities (not all of them purely financial; want to meet Paul McCartney*? Tell his people you own LFC and chances are you'll get to meet him)

How that translates to actual investment in the club, and the stadium in particular, now becomes a little clearer. The Main Stand expansion has already bought them a huge amount of unique coverage. It benefits the football club and the fanbase, of course, that's vital, but it also demonstrates that they are a group with the means and the will to do something that had previously been considered impossible, and to do that with some style and class. (Gives you something to chat to Sir Paul* about when the meeting is set up.)

There is a law of diminishing returns with this stuff. The best thing FSG can do is get the club winning trophies. In the meantime, they have said that they will under-promise and over-deliver. In terms of the stadium, so far, they have played a blinder. And while the planning application for expanding the Annie Road may not be a "promise" as such, it would reflect poorly on them if they just dropped it for no obvious reason now.


Not aimed at anyone specifically here...

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #459 on: July 18, 2016, 05:59:06 pm »
paying it off ASAP is important if u have visions of selling up


Not when you've given the club an interest free loan which will be added onto the value of the club if you do sell up.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #460 on: July 18, 2016, 06:15:27 pm »
Not when you've given the club an interest free loan which will be added onto the value of the club if you do sell up.
Yes, but that doesn't fit into people's agendas mate!

Offline Welshred

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #461 on: July 18, 2016, 06:27:44 pm »
Yes, but that doesn't fit into people's agendas mate!

For what it's worth I don't think FSG are in this for the long haul and will probably look to sell up when the Annie Road End is completed. I think they're smart enough to realise that even if the club isn't competing on the pitch they can make a seriously good profit from the off the pitch activity they've done brilliantly at. If it means we get a near 60k capacity stadium which, when the club is bought and the loans are paid off, helps us massively on the pitch then they've done alright in my opinion.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #462 on: July 18, 2016, 06:29:09 pm »
For what it's worth I don't think FSG are in this for the long haul and will probably look to sell up when the Annie Road End is completed. I think they're smart enough to realise that even if the club isn't competing on the pitch they can make a seriously good profit from the off the pitch activity they've done brilliantly at. If it means we get a near 60k capacity stadium which, when the club is bought and the loans are paid off, helps us massively on the pitch then they've done alright in my opinion.

Gets boring hearing this every year mate. They have shown no sign of wanting to sell. When they do, IF they do, I'm sure there'll be plenty to say on the subject, until then it's just gossipmongering.
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #463 on: July 18, 2016, 06:36:41 pm »
Gets boring hearing this every year mate. They have shown no sign of wanting to sell. When they do, IF they do, I'm sure there'll be plenty to say on the subject, until then it's just gossipmongering.

It's just my opinion, nothing backing it up of course. I know they've shown no sign of wanting to sell which is great for me.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #464 on: July 18, 2016, 06:53:50 pm »
It's just my opinion, nothing backing it up of course. I know they've shown no sign of wanting to sell which is great for me.

Yes, and what you've said is fine, but the FSG "debate" that often follows makes me itch. Brings out all the tin-foil-hat types for some reason.
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #465 on: July 18, 2016, 07:01:23 pm »
Ahhh ok, sorry :)

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #466 on: July 18, 2016, 08:10:20 pm »
Or how half- hearted?

The consented ARE will have a bigger capacity than the Kop. That comes with opportunity, and risk.

There is nothing marginal about  a 4000 increase in capacity, at £50 a ticket (I wish) generating £5m a season from ticket sales alone over 25 games. Factor in ticket price inflation, PL Rights inflation, some premium seating, significantly enhanced food/drink sales, and naming rights and it is an easy step.

Marginal; low return, a deal on the margins. Financially not really worth it (for the club).

The point is, they have invested a huge amount into the club, which they could very easily have invested elsewhere for much greater profit. They are wealthy men, but wealthy men never really retire from accumulating wealth, and I assure you that each and every one of them will have multiple ventures currently increasing their personal fortunes by eye-watering figures on a regular basis.

If they were only interested in the club as a money making scheme, it's a really poor choice of investment for experienced hedge fund managers. They could already have made a lot more from what they have put into the club than they would ever be likely to see back, even if they did want to sell all or part of the club.

The appeal of something like Liverpool to FSG has been much discussed here, of course, and the only logical answer appears to be that it is a prestige vehicle for them. Owning Liverpool FC opens doors. It raises their profile (they were previously well known among baseball fans, but they are still relatively small fish in the football world) which in turn leads to further opportunities (not all of them purely financial; want to meet Paul McCartney*? Tell his people you own LFC and chances are you'll get to meet him)

How that translates to actual investment in the club, and the stadium in particular, now becomes a little clearer. The Main Stand expansion has already bought them a huge amount of unique coverage. It benefits the football club and the fanbase, of course, that's vital, but it also demonstrates that they are a group with the means and the will to do something that had previously been considered impossible, and to do that with some style and class. (Gives you something to chat to Sir Paul* about when the meeting is set up.)

There is a law of diminishing returns with this stuff. The best thing FSG can do is get the club winning trophies. In the meantime, they have said that they will under-promise and over-deliver. In terms of the stadium, so far, they have played a blinder. And while the planning application for expanding the Annie Road may not be a "promise" as such, it would reflect poorly on them if they just dropped it for no obvious reason now.


Not aimed at anyone specifically here...

*re "Paul McCartney", I do realise that some people on this site are ear-bleedingly literal about things like this. Sir Paul is just an example here of someone elusive who people might want to meet with some connection to the city. It's not about Paul McCartney the man, the musician, or the bloke who has been impersonating him since Rubber Soul came out. Leave it. Step back. Have a think about it. Think of Chris De Burgh instead if it helps. Or Brad Pitt. Or that Irish fella from the WWE. It doesn't matter. Think about how you'd go about getting a round of golf with Liza Tarbuck if that speaks to you more. Bear in mind it got them in the room with LeBron James already.


I think you'll find FSG's financial interest in the stadium has more to do with the value of tax credits than meeting celebrities. And why not? It's their money the club is getting interest free.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 08:18:36 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #467 on: July 18, 2016, 08:25:05 pm »
Assuming Peter is still here, any further comment on the discussion I had with CraigDS on page 11 of this thread? :-)

Your expert opinion is valued!!
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #468 on: July 18, 2016, 08:29:41 pm »
All we'll need after this are a few towers to fill in the corners between the stands. ;)
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #469 on: July 18, 2016, 08:51:22 pm »
Assuming Peter is still here, any further comment on the discussion I had with CraigDS on page 11 of this thread? :-)

Your expert opinion is valued!!

The more I've thought about it the more it seems to make sense - without knowing first hand any potential issues at the back of the Kop or edge of the Centenary. The pitch could be up to 6 yards longer, so would shift the half way line 2 or 3 yards towards the Anny Road end, which probably puts it near enough bang in the middle of the new tunnel.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #470 on: July 18, 2016, 09:01:15 pm »
Assuming Peter is still here, any further comment on the discussion I had with CraigDS on page 11 of this thread? :-)

Your expert opinion is valued!!
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #471 on: July 18, 2016, 09:03:31 pm »
Please do not feed the trolls.

Peter isn't a troll. I mean a bit of a ogre but no troll.

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #472 on: July 18, 2016, 09:08:45 pm »
Please do not feed the trolls.

Yours is the first unreasonable comment in that particular conversation!! :-)
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #473 on: July 18, 2016, 09:26:16 pm »
Assuming Peter is still here, any further comment on the discussion I had with CraigDS on page 11 of this thread? :-)

Your expert opinion is valued!!

If you mean lengthening the pitch, I'd say very little to no chance.

Moving the goal line towards the ARE would worsen the views from the lower ARE and reduce the TV camera viewing zone and thus make a European final even less likely, which I presume would be the point of doing it in the first place.

Anyway, from what I gather, Jurgen Klopp's seat would be bang on half way as it is. So; perfect.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 09:29:07 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #474 on: July 18, 2016, 09:28:14 pm »
Fuck!

Wrong thread!  I was thinking of a different Peter rather that Peter Mc


Sorry Peter!
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #475 on: July 18, 2016, 09:46:06 pm »

I think you'll find FSG's financial interest in the stadium has more to do with the value of tax credits than meeting celebrities. And why not? It's their money the club is getting interest free.

I was thinking in broader terms about the reasons for their investment in the first place, and how the stadium fits into that, and you were the last person I expected to misunderstand the prestige angle. "Meeting celebrities." FML.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #476 on: July 18, 2016, 09:47:15 pm »
If you mean lengthening the pitch, I'd say very little to no chance.

Moving the goal line towards the ARE would worsen the views from the lower ARE and reduce the TV camera viewing zone and thus make a European final even less likely, which I presume would be the point of doing it in the first place.

Anyway, from what I gather, Jurgen Klopp's seat would be bang on half way as it is. So; perfect.

Why? Nothing of interest ever happens on the halfway line.
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Online Peter McGurk

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #477 on: July 18, 2016, 09:53:27 pm »
I was thinking in broader terms about the reasons for their investment in the first place, and how the stadium fits into that, and you were the last person I expected to misunderstand the prestige angle. "Meeting celebrities." FML.

Eh?

Anyway, this gives an idea of FSG priorities for the club (from 2012):

Henry believes the best way of improving the Reds’ ability to compete financially is through worldwide commercial revenue streams and their long-term future is not dependent on the stadium issue.

and a direct quote in the same interview:

“While a new stadium or an expansion of Anfield is beneficial over the long-term for the club, the financial impact of adding seats and amenities should be put into perspective. That’s why I say that it is a myth that stadium issues are going to magically transform LFC’s fortunes."

The never-ending guessing game of FSG's 'true' intentions always and keeps on surprising me. They can't be any plainer or more open.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 09:58:37 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Nessy76

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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #478 on: July 18, 2016, 10:42:28 pm »
Eh?

Anyway, this gives an idea of FSG priorities for the club (from 2012):

Henry believes the best way of improving the Reds’ ability to compete financially is through worldwide commercial revenue streams and their long-term future is not dependent on the stadium issue.

and a direct quote in the same interview:

“While a new stadium or an expansion of Anfield is beneficial over the long-term for the club, the financial impact of adding seats and amenities should be put into perspective. That’s why I say that it is a myth that stadium issues are going to magically transform LFC’s fortunes."


Thanks for sharing. Do you somehow see this as being at odds with what I said, because I don't see the relevance to the conversation
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Re: anfield road stand
« Reply #479 on: July 18, 2016, 10:51:14 pm »
Marginal; low return, a deal on the margins. Financially not really worth it (for the club).

Not only is  the financial argument not true. I despair that some sections of our support see optimisation of return for FSG more important than the long term interests of LFC.

But you are right to point out that beyond verbally promising a new stadium to Broughton, FSG have shown no interest in making stadium development a priority.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 10:53:32 pm by whiteboots »