Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[scumbagcollege]

Lucas Leiva is a solid defender and competent on the ball but again he's got no end product and he's a bit of a specialist and slow (though in big games with a 1-2 in midfield I still think he'd be good to have at the club for footballing reasons-I'm guessing its more his role+wages that has him earmarked to leave).

Why did the club give him an improved contract then?
(Not disagreeing with you [well the bolded bit!], just that there appears to be a parodox between making Lucas a high earner and Rodgers seemingly not wanting to play with an out and out DM.) 

[GregCharrua]

He didn't last season. He was integral to Soton's play and was generally fit to play all 90 mins of games.

He was also very, very good, almost surprisingly so. No one fancied Lallana to be one of the top performers in the BPL last season but he was right up there with the very best in terms of midfield productivity. Clearly yaya / Ramsey pre injury was a level above, but Lallana performed just below them for midfielders in the BPL last season imo.

This.

So what happened? Does he care less or are we just unable to get the most out of our players?

Yeah, he just doesn't give a fuck about football anymore and is living it up on Merseyside instead of focusing on his football. Has nothing to do with the early injury, the current broken ribs, OR the total shiteness of the side in general.. 

Why did the club give him an improved contract then?
(Not disagreeing with you [well the bolded bit!], just that there appears to be a parodox between making Lucas a high earner and Rodgers seemingly not wanting to play with an out and out DM.) 

No answer for ya.

[Kopenhagen]

He didn't last season. He was integral to Soton's play and was generally fit to play all 90 mins of games.

The stats don't back this up.

[paddysour]

He didn't last season. He was integral to Soton's play and was generally fit to play all 90 mins of games.

He was also very, very good, almost surprisingly so. No one fancied Lallana to be one of the top performers in the BPL last season but he was right up there with the very best in terms of midfield productivity. Clearly yaya / Ramsey pre injury was a level above, but Lallana performed just below them for midfielders in the BPL last season imo.

Lallana ran hot last season. I posted it in the summer, his productivity basically doubled even though he was still hitting the same amount of shots from the same areas etc. It was completely unsustainable. It happens all the time, a few years back it was Charlie Adam.

[harryc]

The stats don't back this up.

Don't have the stats but he seemed to go off regularly around the 70min mark. Might be due to his ulcerative collitis he just doesn't have the stamina.

[Kopenhagen]

Don't have the stats but he seemed to go off regularly around the 70min mark. Might be due to his ulcerative collitis he just doesn't have the stamina.

Someone posted it when we bought him. He was substituted a lot on ~65 at Saints. I don't know where I'd find the stats, but trust me, he was hooked a lot.

[Kopenhagen]

Lallana ran hot last season. I posted it in the summer, his productivity basically doubled even though he was still hitting the same amount of shots from the same areas etc. It was completely unsustainable. It happens all the time, a few years back it was Charlie Adam.

Good thing we have a head of performance analysis to crunch the numbers...!

[Historical Fool]

Lallana ran hot last season. I posted it in the summer, his productivity basically doubled even though he was still hitting the same amount of shots from the same areas etc. It was completely unsustainable. It happens all the time, a few years back it was Charlie Adam.

It wasn't just that though. He was inventive and was willing to try things that he frankly had no right trying, and pulling them off. This was in addition to always being the outlet for Southampton, and always showing for the ball.

I remember two moments from Soton games which he did which I thought "wow he's some player". The first was quite simply a sublime piece of control where the ball was coming to him at speed, and he flicked it with his heel and took two players out of the game in the middle of the park - it's something you'd see on Ronaldinho highlights. The second was when he took the ball on the left and dribbled past something like 4 players and scored. It wasn't a great shot (it dribbled past the line iirc) but he had no right trying the shot in the first place, and you make your own luck.

[Historical Fool]

Someone posted it when we bought him. He was substituted a lot on ~65 at Saints. I don't know where I'd find the stats, but trust me, he was hooked a lot.

He was hooked at 60 odd minutes 5 times in 38 games (gameweeks 4, 5, 30, 37 and 38) - from the stats I have I only have minutes played, so the gameweek 30 one could be substituted on seeing as he only played for 56 minutes. Hooked at 70 mins in gameweek 1 and 74 in gameweek 22. I wouldn't count that as being a lot. He started 37 games for the saints and appeared in all 38, playing 3202 minutes out of a total 3420.

So yes, the stats do back it up.

[GregCharrua]

Right, he has shown his skill. Maybe his stats were higher than usual and he 'ran hot' but that doesn't mean that in a performing liverpool side he wouldn't grow even further. Right now we're shit and he is still one of the few out there trying things, being creative, and looking like he fits into a side that aspires to play the way Liverpool do (if we ever actually end up playing that way, we'll see!)

[Historical Fool]

He was hooked at 60 odd minutes 5 times in 38 games (gameweeks 4, 5, 30, 37 and 38) - from the stats I have I only have minutes played, so the gameweek 30 one could be substituted on seeing as he only played for 56 minutes. Hooked at 70 mins in gameweek 1 and 74 in gameweek 22. I wouldn't count that as being a lot. He started 37 games for the saints and appeared in all 38, playing 3202 minutes out of a total 3420.

So yes, the stats do back it up.

I'll qualify this by saying he was subbed 19 times, so yes you're right he was hooked a lot. But other than the 7 times I mentioned, the substitutions were at 84 mins or later, which indicates (and from what I remember as well from watching their games) that they were pulling him to rest him and/or giving minutes to their youngsters like Ward Prowse.

[GregCharrua]

He was hooked at 60 odd minutes 5 times in 38 games (gameweeks 4, 5, 30, 37 and 38) - from the stats I have I only have minutes played, so the gameweek 30 one could be substituted on seeing as he only played for 56 minutes. Hooked at 70 mins in gameweek 1 and 74 in gameweek 22. I wouldn't count that as being a lot. He started 37 games for the saints and appeared in all 38, playing 3202 minutes out of a total 3420.

So yes, the stats do back it up.

BOOM 

[Fromola]

So what happened? Does he care less or are we just unable to get the most out of our players?

We signed him without knowing how to use him or where to play him. Sterling is an automatic starter and Coutinho will usually start and fitting all three in isn't easy or defensively viable.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

Lallana started 37 league games last season, lets break down those games...

He completed 90 minutes in - 20 games
He played over 80 minutes or more in - 7 games (or 27 games)
He played 70 minutes or more in - 4 games (or 31 games)
He played less than 70 minutes - 6 games

Check yourself  - http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/adam-lallana/leistungsdaten/spieler/43530/plus/?saison=2013

Not to mention his distance covered and sprint stats from last season - http://www. take the hint and stop posting links to that xenophobic misogynistic Nazi sympathising excuse for journalism .co.uk/sport/football/article-2602212/Nine-ten-players-Premier-League-distance-covered-table-English-West-Hams-Noble-leading-running-NINE-London-Marathons-season.html

I thought this odd myth was dispelled in the summer, apparently not.

[Historical Fool]

So what happened? Does he care less or are we just unable to get the most out of our players?

It's not that simple imo. He was literally Mr Southampton, he was their captain and he was given a free role behind Ricky Lambert to create as he saw fit. He nominally started on the left iirc but you'd see him popping up in the middle, or receiving throw ins from the right. He was also given license to get into the box and try his luck from there. This led to 9 goals and 9 assists.

Comparatively to Daniel Sturridge, for example, he completed 70 successful dribbles to Sturridge's 37. Crucially (and surprisingly) though, he had 182 penalty area touches, compared to Sturridge's 95, and out of 70 goal attempts 49 were in the box. This shows that the freedom that he was allowed to have under Pochettino, and which I don't think he has been afforded here due to the different system we have under Rodgers.

Not a slight on Rodgers at all, by the way. It just shows that he has more limited involvement playing for us, which is understandable also as teams do tend to respect us a lot more as opponents and therefore space is limited. Furthermore if we were to play with our wingers having a free role, the shape of the team would be severely disrupted.

[Tony19:6]

We signed him without knowing how to use him or where to play him. Sterling is an automatic starter and Coutinho will usually start and fitting all three in isn't easy or defensively viable.

You seriously suggesting the manager spent £23-£25m on him on a whim?

[Ashburton]

You seriously suggesting the manager spent £23-£25m on him on a whim?

Surely something like a 4-2-3-1 with Lucas and Allen holding, with Sterling, Coutinho and Lallana ahead and Sturridge up front.

Problem is, BR persists with Gerard and Allen, the wingbacks are shite defensively (whilst also having to cover Stevie) and Sturridge is injured.

Think he is saying that with the signing of Lambert and Balotelli, players who need support alongside, it forces Lallana on the bench, at best, despite being a player who can play behind the striker across the pitch.  It is more of a problem with not finding a mobile striker to replace Sturridge, and Gerard not being a DM, which causes everything else.

[Peabee]

You seriously suggesting the manager spent £23-£25m on him on a whim?

It's RAWK, anything is possible.

[EmotionalCitrus]

It's mind boggling that Emre Can can't get into our abortion of a midfield.

What is Hendersons best position do people think?

As far away from the starting line up as possible.

[Tony19:6]

Thing is though people go on about not having strength in depth and rightly so.

Lallana may not play every game but with 4 comps to play for you'd like to see someone come in with quality and maybe see an adjustment to the way we play

When you factor in loss of from etc it not that difficult to see why he was acquired.

Afterall he was our No1 target?

[GregCharrua]

Surely something like a 4-2-3-1 with Lucas and Allen holding, with Sterling, Coutinho and Lallana ahead and Sturridge up front.

Problem is, BR persists with Gerard and Allen, the wingbacks are shite defensively (whilst also having to cover Stevie) and Sturridge is injured.

Think he is saying that with the signing of Lambert and Balotelli, players who need support alongside, it forces Lallana on the bench, at best, despite being a player who can play behind the striker across the pitch.  It is more of a problem with not finding a mobile striker to replace Sturridge, and Gerard not being a DM, which causes everything else.

Coutinho is the problem in that lineup (not that he is a bad player, mind). He gets lost on the wing, plays his best running on the ball from deep and looking for the through ball to a runner on the break. We don't play that way now. Lallana should have a free attacking role as the 10 in our side (or coming in off the left like at Southampton).

And if I'm honest, as much as I love him, I'd be looking to offload Coutinho for a good wedge and to put that money into a quality player with at least a little pace, good vision, decent finishing and an excellent work rate/pressing play - Turan or Isco sort of player maybe, a player who would do well in the 1-2 midfield making late runs and keeping possession or in the 10 role letting Lallana go out wide. Coutinho is almost that player. He's young, maybe he can develop but he's very lightweight and his game when we're working the ball in the final third just isn't anywhere as good as when he was that space running out from deep, head up looking for the ridiculous pass to play Sturridge or Sterling in. Also, his inability to finish is such a big loss in that role for us that I don't think we can make up for it, unless we go back to counter-attacking.

okay I'm going to go fire up FM

But in all seriousness, I love Coutinho but I'm not convinced he's going to work if we aren't looking to break and play a more vertical football like we did with the SAS Diamond.


 

[scumbagcollege]

I remember two moments from Soton games which he did which I thought "wow he's some player". The first was quite simply a sublime piece of control where the ball was coming to him at speed, and he flicked it with his heel and took two players out of the game in the middle of the park - it's something you'd see on Stewie Downings highlights. The second was when he took the ball on the left and dribbled past something like 4 players and scored. It wasn't a great shot (it dribbled past the line iirc) but he had no right trying the shot in the first place, and you make your own luck.

Fixed that for you, mate. 

[Historical Fool]

Fixed that for you, mate. 

Nah haven't seen any of that from Downing. Still a fantastic player mind.

[scumbagcollege]

Nah haven't seen any of that from Downing. Still a fantastic player mind.

Ha ha, who are you trying to fool? 

[Historical Fool]

Ha ha, who are you trying to fool? 

No one actually. He has his qualities (dead ball delivery, crossing, creativity) but I wouldn't call fancy flicks one of them.

[SerbianScouser]

I think Henderson if coached well for it has a chance to become a world-class wingback. This season I`ve been saying that I don`t want him in CM but as a fullback.

He has everything in his locker to be a dominant player on the flanks, obviously there are a lot of nuances he still has to learn about the position but with his work-rate and willingness to learn he might just become a McAteer 2.0.

[Packalacky]

I think Henderson if coached well for it has a chance to become a world-class wingback. This season I`ve been saying that I don`t want him in CM but as a fullback.

He has everything in his locker to be a dominant player on the flanks, obviously there are a lot of nuances he still has to learn about the position but with his work-rate and willingness to learn he might just become a McAteer 2.0.

He's 24 years old. Bit late to change now.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Gerrard's football IQ is not nearly as high as Alonso's or Pirlo's. Alonso, we've seen first hand, passes better, controls the tempo better and defends better. It's not as high as Lucas's either. It's not bad, but it's not superior. It's never had to be. I'd bet that 99% of the time from age 9 to 29 he's always been the quickest, strongest, most technically gifted footballer on any pitch he's walked on. Why would you need to use your brain when you could just out-run lesser athletes and then arrow the ball into the bottom corner of the net with an accuracy that most of his peers could only dream about having? I'm not saying he's stupid. I'm saying, as a footballer, he's relied on technique, athleticism and some instinct. His skillset is perfectly weighted towards a number 10 secondary goalscorer.

Lucas performs better in the area of the field we are discussing because he is sharper in the mind. His skillset is perfect for playing the area between midfield and defence: the most cerebrally challenging position in football. He has the highest IQ in the squad by far. He's even good in the air because he's smart. It's not because he's tall or has a particularly good leap, he just positions himself earlier and better than his opponent and wins aerials even if he's giving up 5 inches in height.

I think this is a bit simplistic and pretty unfair to Gerrard. I'd grant you that the aforementioned players are probably better at slowing the game down in terms of dictating it on those terms, but Alonso for example does not have Gerrard's vision on the ball. For me this accounts for football IQ as well. Unfortunately, people associate the slower methodical passer as the thinking man when this is only half the equation.

The reason I'd pick Gerrard ahead of the aforementioned in that role (apart from Pirlo) is that while he doesn't dictate the game better at a slower pace; he does it well enough and is far better in terms of affecting goals to the point where the discrepancy is in his favour. Obviously, with Pirlo, you have someone who is as good at both respects. They all have their positives and negatives when you get down to the nitty gritty. Just among the ones you've named: Pirlo might have the best passing in terms of dictating and affecting goals of them all, but he lacks the physical/defensive presence they do and relies heavily on his teammates. Alonso might have a better defensive presence than Pirlo (and slightly more than Gerrard), but he lacks his creative vision from the deep in terms of affecting goals. Lucas is an even more extreme representation of this as he is a world class defensive midfielder who is very capable of getting on the ball and being metronomic in the play but the least likely to affect a goal. Gerrard is the best rounded in terms of having world class vision, being able to dictate the game at a very high level and also being decent to good defensively.

The rest is fair enough.

-----

As for tonight's game, it was wonderful and I hope we continue with the 3-4-3 with Lucas and Gerrard in the middle against Arsenal. I just wish they had gotten more rest once the game was at 3-0.

[wemmick]

As for tonight's game, it was wonderful and I hope we continue with the 3-4-3 with Lucas and Gerrard in the middle against Arsenal. I just wish they had gotten more rest once the game was at 3-0.

BR made some very interesting choices in midfield tonight. I reckon it was the best match of the season for the midfield. Nice changes in tempo between possession and counter-attacking, and no one really forced passes in the final third that weren't on, even if they didn't come off. That was wonderful. Do you think we can play a 3-4-3 in the PL?   

[Studgotelli]

Lucas/Gerrard combo was woeful at the Emirates last year, but the 343 has it's pros and cons.

Brendan's got some big decisions to make for this one.

[SerbianScouser]

Lucas/Gerrard combo was woeful at the Emirates last year, but the 343 has it's pros and cons.

Brendan's got some big decisions to make for this one.

Not just the Emirates, but also Utd at home, at Everton, at Hull etc. I know people will say we were near the top of the table but it most certainly wasn`t due to them. I think they`ll be found out again because once we dismantled them last season as partnership we went on to a higher level immediately and pushed on for the title.

With this new system that is based on pressing we need to consider giving only small roles to the likes of Gerrard, Balo and Lambert. Pressing aggressively high up the pitch allows us to attack in numbers and create chances. I just feel 3 aforementioned players simply are not up to it.

[WillyWonka]

At times tonight we got carved open by a second string Championship team. I'd hold off a bit until proclaiming this as our perfect midfield and formation.

[Studgotelli]

Not just the Emirates, but also Utd at home, at Everton, at Hull etc. I know people will say we were near the top of the table but it most certainly wasn`t due to them. I think they`ll be found out again because once we dismantled them last season as partnership we went on to a higher level immediately and pushed on for the title.

With this new system that is based on pressing we need to consider giving only small roles to the likes of Gerrard, Balo and Lambert. Pressing aggressively high up the pitch allows us to attack in numbers and create chances. I just feel 3 aforementioned players simply are not up to it.

Agreed, though I think the system can accommodate Gerrard and Lucas in some games. Needs a lot of tinkering to protect their lack of mobility though if that's even possible.

Specifically speaking about Arsenal, City and those type of teams the whole 343 system would likely get exposed.

[SerbianScouser]

Agreed, though I think the system can accommodate Gerrard and Lucas in some games. Needs a lot of tinkering to protect their lack of mobility though if that's even possible.

Specifically speaking about Arsenal, City and those type of teams the whole 343 system would likely get exposed.

We played 352 with both of them in the team last season a good few times. Problem is that either of them need a Hendo type of player next to them to provide legs. Between them there`s no balance and dynamism. It`s never gonna work, hopefully Brendan abandons it quickly because those guys upfront need people to contest for second balls behind them and they won`t get it sufficiently enough from L&G.

[Studgotelli]

We played 352 with both of them in the team last season a good few times. Problem is that either of them need a Hendo type of player next to them to provide legs. Between them there`s no balance and dynamism. It`s never gonna work, hopefully Brendan abandons it quickly because those guys upfront need people to contest for second balls behind them and they won`t get it sufficiently enough from L&G.

Fair points. Perhaps when Johnson comes back from injury Henderson can replace one of them? (Manquillo doesn't look like he's gonna play much)

Have to say we've looked a lot more fluid than in any other system this year except the diamond. At least until Sturridge comes back.

[SerbianScouser]

Fair points. Perhaps when Johnson comes back from injury Henderson can replace one of them? (Manquillo doesn't look like he's gonna play much)

Have to say we've looked a lot more fluid than in any other system this year except the diamond. At least until Sturridge comes back.

I want Hendo at the wingback running up and down, think he could be a powerhouse there. As for the CM next to Lucas I`m thinking Allen or even Can. However if we keep on playing like this it`ll be even more of a reason to have Stevie in the middle - as unfortunately BR feels forced to have him on the pitch somewhere - though it will hinder our overall concept of pressing like maniacs in the final third.

[robgomm]

I think Henderson if coached well for it has a chance to become a world-class wingback. This season I`ve been saying that I don`t want him in CM but as a fullback.

He has everything in his locker to be a dominant player on the flanks, obviously there are a lot of nuances he still has to learn about the position but with his work-rate and willingness to learn he might just become a McAteer 2.0.

To be honest it's this sort of thinking that kills him because he can so a serviceable job anywhere.

Henderson's best game this season was dominating the midfield against West Brom, pressing and offering his usual work rate defensively and making intelligent runs and passes further forward, even chipping in with a goal. That's where he's best for me.

But he'll do a job as a wing back as he would anywhere. I think he'd have to make a tremendous leap to be a world class wing back.

[SerbianScouser]

Henderson's best game this season was dominating the midfield against West Brom, pressing and offering his usual work rate defensively and making intelligent runs and passes further forward, even chipping in with a goal. That's where he's best for me.

This is exactly why I`m critical of him this season. One single good performance in CM all season and it comes against one of the poorest teams in the league. I really don`t think it`s enough. Also his 2 assists in first 3 games to Sterling could have easily came from wingback position had he played there.

But I think now it`s a different ball game because with the new system last two games we attack with more players. Our fullbacks in 4231 this season were never able to support our attacks as Hendo and Markovic/Moreno did last two games.

Bottom line for me is that Hendo - judging over 3.5 years he`s here - imo is a Milner type rather than top class CM. Maybe it`s a slight on him but still he will be instrumental as our utility guy for us till the end of his career.

[robgomm]

My view is he's been something of a fall guy this season. He's played in odd in between roles as the rest of the team has struggled. Truth is, everyone has looked worse because of our issues up front and the lack of confidence in the defence.

I think Hendo is still a good shout for central midfield but he needs to improve his touch and perhaps, perverse as it sounds, try a little less.

[killer-heels]

Henderson isn't top class but then you don't need to have a side where all 11 are top class. Even City and Chelsea don't have that. What you do need is 3 or 4 top class players and the rest of the team made up of good players that can complement each other.