Topic: Jordon Ibe

[keyo]

*Killjoy alert*

It was League 1's Preston North End, who made 11 subs at half time. And Ibe still blazed over the bar when he should have scored earlier in the match. 

Not to say he didn't play well. Because he did. But that stuff should be taken in to consideration before we start claiming he's on the 'cusp' of anything.

If he's able to repeat against the like of Roma/City/Dortmund before the season starts then there might be more of a case to be put forward.

Can only play against what's put in front of you of course, but what's been put in front of him has largely not been very good. It has to be said. 

To be fair, expectations are not based on his 2 appearances in pre-season, rather he is expected to be the next big thing and therefore attention is fully focussed...

[Cpt_Reina]

To be fair, expectations are not based on his 2 appearances in pre-season, rather he is expected to be the next big thing and therefore attention is fully focussed...

That's fair enough. I won't disagree that Ibe looks like being the next one to through to make a genuine impression on our first team.

I just think there's a massive need, or even likelihood, for it being this season.

[[new username under construction]]

A little bit of nerves or desperation to prove himself probably just lead to the bad shooting, hell maybe it's just pre-season rustiness! Looking at the crap in the Championship and the terrible managers in the PL i'd be worried if he went on loan.

[RedSince86]

A little bit of nerves or desperation to prove himself probably just lead to the bad shooting, hell maybe it's just pre-season rustiness! Looking at the crap in the Championship and the terrible managers in the PL i'd be worried if he went on loan.

If he was loaned in the PL,i think gus poyet would be the best manager for him.

But personally i'd like him to push his way into the team under the guidance of rodgers.

[[new username under construction]]

If he was loaned in the PL,i think gus poyet would be the best manager for him.

But personally i'd like him to push his way into the team under the guidance of rodgers.

I think he might be fighting for survival though unfortunately....As you say I think the guidance of Rodgers is what he needs, even if it is fewer mins...then again as I said before, he might push on an nail down a place

[Cpt_Reina]

But personally i'd like him to push his way into the team under the guidance of rodgers.

On this, is there a danger of us believing that Rodgers can improve improve every single player that crosses his path next season?

He's going to have a lot on his plate isn't he? He's already got a very young squad of players that he needs to coach. The likes of Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, Can, Flanno etc are all still nowhere near the finished article.

And then there's the task of creating a system and balance that can compensate for the loss of Suarez. The coaching and improvement of a defence which left a lot to be desired last season.

And Champions League thrown in for good measure, his first ever crack at it, so less time to actually give this focus and attention during the week.

Is it really prudent to throw him another ball to juggle in Ibe, or Suso, or Ilori? Could end up doing more harm than good not only to the players themselves but also to Rodgers in terms of spreading himself too thin.

There's a saturation point isn't there?

[[new username under construction]]

On this, is there a danger of us believing that Rodgers can improve improve every single player that crosses his path next season?

He's going to have a lot on his plate isn't he? He's already got a very young squad of players that he needs to coach. The likes of Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, Can, Flanno etc are all still nowhere near the finished article.

And then there's the task of creating a system and balance that can compensate for the loss of Suarez. The coaching and improvement of a defence which left a lot to be desired last season.

And Champions League thrown in for good measure, his first ever crack at it, so less time to actually give this focus and attention during the week.

Is it really prudent to throw him another ball to juggle in Ibe, or Suso, or Ilori? Could end up doing more harm than good not only to the players themselves but also to Rodgers in terms of spreading himself too thin.

There's a saturation point isn't there?

You'd hope that the development of Sterling wasn't just Rodgers but also the whole team there. If that's the case I don't see too much of a problem......but as you say, Rodgers has a LOT on his plate this season!

[Cpt_Reina]

You'd hope that the development of Sterling wasn't just Rodgers but also the whole team there. If that's the case I don't see too much of a problem......but as you say, Rodgers has a LOT on his plate this season!

I'm sure it was a combination of factors. Not least him being a very very good player. But the game time was there, the attention from the coaching staff, the patience, Suarez (who had a profound impact on Sterling imho).

Hard to envisage Ibe would be afforded the same situation this season.

You can argue that it wouldn't be so much of an issue that he want playing much, as I believe would be the case, as long as he got to be around Rodgers and his coaching staff and he could improve that way. Which is fair enough, that seemed to work ok for Flanagan to an extent.

But we're going to be playing many more midweek games next season, which cuts in to that coaching time significantly, its going to be much more finely balanced next season.

[MD1990]

I would only loan him if a PL club came in for him or a good championship club (e.g Derby) & he was guaranteed starts more or less.

[DefJack]

People need to stop putting Ibe at the same level as Sterling, they are different players, and no, Ibe isn't as good.

I wouldn't say he's as good as Sterling was two years ago and he's a only year younger, Sterling was ready to be a fully fledged starter for us and displaced and experienced England international two years ago, I couldn't see Ibe doing that now.

I have a lot of concerns with Ibe, his physicality is immense, and his technique is solid, but what does he really offer beyond that? His intelligence is lacking hugely, he makes poor decisions constantly, when compared to a 17 year old Sterling he doesn't really match up. He lacks Sterlings creativity, Sterlings guile, Sterlings movement to break the lines, all things Sterling has naturally, he wasn't taught them, he just had to learn to use them at the top level. Can you really improve Ibe's mental abilities that much? Defensively he's not as good as Sterling either, Sterling could easily become a world class RWB, I don't see Ibe a capable of that.

Where Ibe excels is in pure, brute physicality, his pace and strength is incredible for an 18 year old, it's incredible for someone of any age. But is that really enough to be top class player? No doubt he'll end up a good player, but good enough for a team thats going to challenge for the PL and CL titles, good enough to be an England regular?

He's not a Raheem Sterling, Sterling is a nonpareil, someone who can become a true great of the game, Ibe has potential to be a top class player also, but I really fear that he's a Jose Enrique, strong, fast, technically solid, brainless. A lot of this may seem harsh on Ibe, but to hype him up and say he is as good as Sterling doesn't help him.

He needs a loan, hopefully he gets 40 games for a Championship side this season and does well. People want him to stay here, how exactly does he get in the team on a regular basis, how does he rack up the matches? He won't get in ahead of Sterling, or Lallana, or Coutinho, or Markovic. He stays here he stagnates.

[TSC]

He needs a loan, hopefully he gets 40 games for a Championship side this season and does well. People want him to stay here, how exactly does he get in the team on a regular basis, how does he rack up the matches? He won't get in ahead of Sterling, or Lallana, or Coutinho, or Markovic. He stays here he stagnates.

If you're constantly looking to loan players season after season then you may as well just sell. 

Think it's nonsense anyway.  If he's good enough he'll get his chance here.  And he is good enough.  He's one asset which with the exception of Sterling the others don't have.  Pace.  And he's also prepared to run at and commit players.  Defenders hate fast players that are prepared to run at them.  Great option to have off the bench at least.

[McSquared]

People need to stop comparing Ibe and Sterling....

when compared to a 17 year old Sterling....

 

[Cpt_Reina]

If you're constantly looking to loan players season after season then you may as well just sell. 

Think it's nonsense anyway.  If he's good enough he'll get his chance here.  And he is good enough.  He's one asset which with the exception of Sterling the others don't have.  Pace.  And he's also prepared to run at and commit players.  Defenders hate fast players that are prepared to run at them.  Great option to have off the bench at least.

We've loads of pace in our team. And a lot of players prepared to run at the opposition. Sterling, Markovic and Sturridge are rapid. Lallana and Coutinho aren't slow, certainly with the ball they're not. Remy too if he arrives is very quick off the mark.

And assuming we're not done filling the attacking positions yet, which seems to be the case, then how is Ibe even making the bench?

There's a distinct chance that Markovic will have to spend a decent portion of the season on the bench, never mind Ibe. And then there's Lambert, Remy, one of Lallana/Coutinho/Sterling perhaps depending on who we bring in.

Lots and lots of bodies to get past.

[[new username under construction]]

Where is this "terrible game intelligence" coming from? When he made his full debut he was a prefect fit for the team, played very well and made very few if any bad decisions...no more than any other player

[DefJack]

If you're constantly looking to loan players season after season then you may as well just sell. 

Think it's nonsense anyway.  If he's good enough he'll get his chance here.  And he is good enough.  He's one asset which with the exception of Sterling the others don't have.  Pace.  And he's also prepared to run at and commit players.  Defenders hate fast players that are prepared to run at them.  Great option to have off the bench at least.

Sterling and Markovic are both very quick, Sturridge and the imminently arriving Remy are both quick and can both play wide

If he's just gonna be an option of the bench, surely it would be better for him to be a starter elsewhere? I doubt any PL teams will take him as a starter right now, but he could get into a good championship sides 11, he went on loan at the back end of last season and was an impact sub for a relegation threatened side.

[McrRed]

Last year, Ibe was better than Sterling. I was quite happy for Sterling to go on loan and keep Ibe around.

Then Sterling hit the motherfucking lode of zones of proximal development and became a world beater. Wouldn't have happened if we'd have got some of those spurs rejects we were after. Playing time with us gave Sterling his break....and he seized it.

Ibe needs playing time with us, in the first team to make the same kind of improvement. Sadly for him, a year younger, a year later and we now have money to go and buy competition for his place.

Still, three goals scored in preseason all of them assisted by Ibe. Bodes well that does.

[Fordy]

Last year, Ibe was better than Sterling. I was quite happy for Sterling to go on loan and keep Ibe around.

Then Sterling hit the motherfucking lode of zones of proximal development and became a world beater. Wouldn't have happened if we'd have got some of those spurs rejects we were after. Playing time with us gave Sterling his break....and he seized it.

Ibe needs playing time with us, in the first team to make the same kind of improvement. Sadly for him, a year younger, a year later and we now have money to go and buy competition for his place.

Still, three goals scored in preseason all of them assisted by Ibe. Bodes well that does.

Last year, Ibe was better than Sterling. I was quite happy for Sterling to go on loan and keep Ibe around.

Then Sterling hit the motherfucking lode of zones of proximal development and became a world beater. Wouldn't have happened if we'd have got some of those spurs rejects we were after. Playing time with us gave Sterling his break....and he seized it.

Ibe needs playing time with us, in the first team to make the same kind of improvement. Sadly for him, a year younger, a year later and we now have money to go and buy competition for his place.

Still, three goals scored in preseason all of them assisted by Ibe. Bodes well that does.

Ibe has never been better than Sterling.

Ibe needs to improve his finishing and to get into more goalscoring positions.

The lad needs to go back out on loan.

[DefJack]

Last year, Ibe was better than Sterling. I was quite happy for Sterling to go on loan and keep Ibe around.

Then Sterling hit the motherfucking lode of zones of proximal development and became a world beater. Wouldn't have happened if we'd have got some of those spurs rejects we were after. Playing time with us gave Sterling his break....and he seized it.

Ibe needs playing time with us, in the first team to make the same kind of improvement. Sadly for him, a year younger, a year later and we now have money to go and buy competition for his place.

Still, three goals scored in preseason all of them assisted by Ibe. Bodes well that does.

  No he wasn't, not by a long way. Sterling was just waiting to explode last season, I had every faith he'd step up and be a key player for us given a chance.

Yes, Ibe needs playing time, but I consider it highly unlikely it will be with us

[RyanBabel19]

People need to stop putting Ibe at the same level as Sterling, they are different players, and no, Ibe isn't as good.

I wouldn't say he's as good as Sterling was two years ago and he's a only year younger, Sterling was ready to be a fully fledged starter for us and displaced and experienced England international two years ago, I couldn't see Ibe doing that now.

I have a lot of concerns with Ibe, his physicality is immense, and his technique is solid, but what does he really offer beyond that? His intelligence is lacking hugely, he makes poor decisions constantly, when compared to a 17 year old Sterling he doesn't really match up. He lacks Sterlings creativity, Sterlings guile, Sterlings movement to break the lines, all things Sterling has naturally, he wasn't taught them, he just had to learn to use them at the top level. Can you really improve Ibe's mental abilities that much? Defensively he's not as good as Sterling either, Sterling could easily become a world class RWB, I don't see Ibe a capable of that.

Where Ibe excels is in pure, brute physicality, his pace and strength is incredible for an 18 year old, it's incredible for someone of any age. But is that really enough to be top class player? No doubt he'll end up a good player, but good enough for a team thats going to challenge for the PL and CL titles, good enough to be an England regular?

He's not a Raheem Sterling, Sterling is a nonpareil, someone who can become a true great of the game, Ibe has potential to be a top class player also, but I really fear that he's a Jose Enrique, strong, fast, technically solid, brainless. A lot of this may seem harsh on Ibe, but to hype him up and say he is as good as Sterling doesn't help him.

He needs a loan, hopefully he gets 40 games for a Championship side this season and does well. People want him to stay here, how exactly does he get in the team on a regular basis, how does he rack up the matches? He won't get in ahead of Sterling, or Lallana, or Coutinho, or Markovic. He stays here he stagnates.

Pretty harsh analysis of the lad

Makes it sound like he's a young version of Hulk. Reminds me of the Sterling comparisons to Lennon and Wright Phillips

Its funny, Ibes ability to carry the ball and take people on with his close control as opposed to just raw pace is still overlooked by some. He isn't a brainless brute who just runs in straight lines then either smashes it as hard as he can at the end of his runs or goes back and plays a 5 yard pass. His game intellegence is very underrated, you would think in the games he's played he just gets the ball and tries to take on the whole of the opposition as opposed to him choosing his moments wisely which is what he actually has done, plenty of times he's looked at the position of himself, his marker and his teammates on the field and carefully selected what is the best option rather than just carelessly giving away possession. His assists show a lot of what you need to see about his game intelligence, i constantly see 25/26 year old wingers get into those exact positions and not select the best option as well as he has.

[CoventryYNWA]

Send him to QPR or Swansea on loan, think he will be a gaurenteed starter at either of those 2.

Brilliant prospect, so powerful on the ball

[Schmidt]

Send him to QPR or Swansea on loan, think he will be a gaurenteed starter at either of those 2.

Brilliant prospect, so powerful on the ball

Swansea already have some decent wide players, and I'm not sure Arry "Just fackin' cross it" Redknapp is the man to send a player to for development. I agree he needs a loan though, he's the type of player who likes to play high up the pitch, and to do that he needs to be able to score his share of goals which he can't do yet.

[A Dick]

Anyone who claims he's not an intelligent player has clearly only ever seen him in highlights, he plays the simple pass just as often as he runs with it. And this comparing him to Sterling all the time is ridiculous, it's essentially because they're both black wingers let's be honest! Sterling is a Messi -  can play between the lines keeps the ball glued to his foot. Ibe is a mini Ronaldo - incredible athlete which he uses to his advantage (could work on his finishing though).

My dad is a reading season ticket holder so I go once in a while with him and the Championship is a great league plus it gives him the experience of playing Saturday - Wednesday - Saturday which will stand him in good stead for the champions league. Won't get much game time this year so give him a season away and let's see how he does. Loan system works well Especially if you gradually improve the standard as we're about to do with Wisdom. Chelsea have done the same with Lukaku first WBA then Everton. Ian botham used to say nothing made him better at cricket than playing cricket. I'd imagine that's a theory that transcends into football.

[sminp]

I'd keep hold of him for 6 months and see what he can do in the League Cup and off the bench in some other games. In January I'd look to ship him off to Derby and expand our relationship with them unless he's had a Sterling-esque breakthrough. Think he'd be better off challenging for promotion than battling relegation.

[groove]

I think BlindJack is sort of right. Harsh to call him brainless though, I think he's okay in that area. He doesn't match up to Sterling when it comes to intelligence, creativity, guile but Raheem is already more intelligent than a lot of other top footballers... seeing patterns of play and being able to execute them at 17/18 at Prem level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhC0rQiniQs
That's why I kind of think there's not much of a comparison there. Ibe is the CRonaldo to Sterling's Messi. It's why I was getting more Sturridge vibes watching him yesterday. Like that's exactly how I imagine Sturridge used to rip up teams at youth and reserve level (and occasionally at Prem level ). "I'm quicker and more gifted than you. Fucking catch me". Whereas Raheem sort of thinks himself through games with the occasional turn of pace.

EDIT: haha, I honestly didn't see the 10tarrtc post before I made the Messi/Ronaldo comparison.

[sturridginho]

Ibe has great technique and for an 18 year old his game intelligence is very good. Its just we compare him to Sterling who imo is 1 of the smartest footballers in the PL, both are great talents. I have no idea whats best for his development im sure the coaches have a better idea, but there is no need to rush him as his still only 18. Reminds me of Bale and he could be that good in time

[Kansti]

He has all the tools..except new scissors for a haircut.

[cptrios]

On this, is there a danger of us believing that Rodgers can improve improve every single player that crosses his path next season?

He's going to have a lot on his plate isn't he? He's already got a very young squad of players that he needs to coach. The likes of Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, Can, Flanno etc are all still nowhere near the finished article.

And then there's the task of creating a system and balance that can compensate for the loss of Suarez. The coaching and improvement of a defence which left a lot to be desired last season.

And Champions League thrown in for good measure, his first ever crack at it, so less time to actually give this focus and attention during the week.

Is it really prudent to throw him another ball to juggle in Ibe, or Suso, or Ilori? Could end up doing more harm than good not only to the players themselves but also to Rodgers in terms of spreading himself too thin.

There's a saturation point isn't there?

I'm totally with you on this. I agree with PoP (and...Blindjack was it?) that he looks at just about the same level Sterling did two years ago. Sterling, though, was incredibly lucky to hit that point at a time when we were very thin at his position, which meant he was able to get loads of first-team minutes under his belt. Sterling's competition at that time basically consisted of Downing, Assaidi, and Coutinho - the latter for only half a season. Ibe's will be Sterling, Coutinho, Markovic, and Lallana, all of whom are almost certainly better options than he is at this stage.

Rodgers worked wonders for Sterling, but we're unlikely to get that sort of 'perfect storm' of player development opportunity anytime soon, given the added pressure of the CL and, like Cpt_Reina said, the addition of at least two new players to the "kids too young to drink in the US and who need to be both settled in and nurtured toward their full potential" list.

What Ibe does do for me is almost completely obviate the value of any potential deal for Shaqiri. There is no reason why Ibe can't be as good as Shaqiri in, say, two years' time.

[CarraG238]

Last year, Ibe was better than Sterling. I was quite happy for Sterling to go on loan and keep Ibe around.

Then Sterling hit the motherfucking lode of zones of proximal development and became a world beater. Wouldn't have happened if we'd have got some of those spurs rejects we were after. Playing time with us gave Sterling his break....and he seized it.

Ibe needs playing time with us, in the first team to make the same kind of improvement. Sadly for him, a year younger, a year later and we now have money to go and buy competition for his place.

Still, three goals scored in preseason all of them assisted by Ibe. Bodes well that does.

It's an interesting point you made about Sterling last season. Had Rodgers been successful in purchasing Mkhitaryan, Diego Costa or Willian, Sterling might not have been utilized as much as he was. In fact, until Sturridge got hurt around New Year's Day, he was pretty much a non-factor in terms of the squad.

Obviously Ibe has looked good so far in preseason, but I would agree with the others who have said that he needs regular game time and he probably won't get it at Liverpool this season unless there's a major injury crisis. I wonder if the squad was smaller and the club didn't have European football Ibe would get more of an opportunity. In a weird way, the rapid development of the squad going from 7th into title contenders last season may give less of a chance for the academy lads to make an impression.

[Milly]

personally i'm still burnt by how amazing Pacheco used to look in pre-season. I think people need to chill a bit....

[PhaseOfPlay]

Is anyone saying Ibe lacks game intelligence?

Isn't the point more that he doesn't have it to the same level as Sterling had?

That's certainly my point. He is intelligent, but he still relies more on his physical gifts at times, rather than putting a foot on the ball and letting the play catch up with him. That's game intelligence.

[B0151?]

From what I remember, the league game he did start for us vs QPR at the end of the 2012/13 season, he played very maturely. Even getting an assist after beating a couple of players and laying it off to Coutinho from long-range. If we ever did drop him in, I think he might be more composed than people realise. Not that I'm against him going out on loan like.

Got a long way to go, but like PoP says I don't think his game intelligence should be completely dismissed. He's 18 but it seems like he knows what he can do, and does it to great effect. That pull-back to Peterson for the goal was smart and tidy. Wouldn't be surprised if that was to become a staple of his game. Beat defender on the outside, drive in towards goal, drop it off for someone to stroke home. Effective and simple. It will take a great defender to stop him if he masters it, given his pace and power.

[C]

Just because he is incredibly quick and young doesn't mean you can automatically assume he has limited game intelligence

He has assisted all 3 goals this pre-season, all great spots too... he should definetly stay with us this season - he will learn more in training with our lot than another season with Zigic.

[C]

personally i'm still burnt by how amazing Pacheco used to look in pre-season. I think people need to chill a bit....

I don't remember Pacheco having any great performances for us, besian idrizaj (RIP) scored a nice hatrick away to Crewe which was the best performance ive seen from a kid preseason.

[Juan Loco]

All correct. But in comparative terms, he seems to be at the stage Sterling was at two years ago - all raw physical talent with hints of what he can do at the top level, but a lot of edges needing polishing. His speed will go a long way to helping him become the player he can be, but he needs to add the intelligence that Sterling has (although I think he has the shot power that Sterling right now consistently lacks).

Question is, if Sterling was coming through with the squad we have now, rather than the one we had two years ago, would he have spent his time polishing those edges at Liverpool or elsewhere?

[Latenight Surfer]

I'd keep hold of him for 6 months and see what he can do in the League Cup and off the bench in some other games. In January I'd look to ship him off to Derby and expand our relationship with them unless he's had a Sterling-esque breakthrough. Think he'd be better off challenging for promotion than battling relegation.

Sounds like that villainous Hollywood step-father talking to his friends at a BBQ session about what should be done with his bum of a step-son whilst looking at his own 'talented' son.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Question is, if Sterling was coming through with the squad we have now, rather than the one we had two years ago, would he have spent his time polishing those edges at Liverpool or elsewhere?

Good question. Might also depend on who the manager was? I think Rodgers recognises talent, especially dribblers. I'm betting the 1982 Brazil team is one of his all time favourite teams (and I think I've seen him mention Maradona as his favourite player). I think Sterling would have got his chance, but he may not have got the experience to learn what's needed at this level that he has in the past two seasons.

[ac]

Just because he is incredibly quick and young doesn't mean you can automatically assume he has limited game intelligence

He has assisted all 3 goals this pre-season, all great spots too... he should definetly stay with us this season - he will learn more in training with our lot than another season with Zigic.

Don't think he has limited game intelligence (he's still young), but just that the likes of Sterling and Januzai are far ahead of Ibe in this regard

[Latenight Surfer]

Question is, if Sterling was coming through with the squad we have now, rather than the one we had two years ago, would he have spent his time polishing those edges at Liverpool or elsewhere?

The squad we have now compared to the one two years ago lacked a certain amount of pace when on the counter which has got to do more with the personnel than the system. Up until now we have seen counters based upon positions of the forwards/attackers rather than a system which provides us with a platform for launching counter-attacks, which is why we need players with pace (being the minimum of requirements) at almost every position possible.

So two years ago if Sterling were to go on loan and improve his over-all game, he still has to come into this squad and rely on his pace more than anything else. Same goes with Ibe. He has the pace (more than most) and all he needs to do is take a closer look at how the system works and where he needs to improve rather than going on loan in the hopes of game time and if the system doesn't suit him there (most likely out-come) then it could go down as a waste of time and energy.

Sometimes it's best to stay close to the team and learn about the system under implementation and learn from them, when you've already got the most important attribute of your game with you.

I see Ibe as that player who needs to polish his game at Liverpool for the time being and loaning him out could be a possibility in the near future, but not for now.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

personally i'm still burnt by how amazing Pacheco used to look in pre-season. I think people need to chill a bit....

I don't remember him ever looking as good as Ibe.

[bathoz]

My natural inclination is to send Ibe out on loan - to develop. Game time is what is going to improve him, not 5 minute substitute appearances in the League Cup.

Ideally we'd loan him to a premier league side - but I'm honestly not certain if he's good enough to hold down a spot. And that's what he needs, 30 odd games. Week in, week out playing to get used to the stresses of being part of a team - versus trying everything to impress in a 5 minute substitute appearance.

Also: he's not Sterling. Not even a little. The comparison to Cronaldo is tiresome, but probably a little more accurate. And the thing to remember about that freak is that until he developed his game intelligence, there was very serious talk about United selling him. All that physicality doesn't matter if you can't use it.