Topic: The Amazing Coutinho

[killer-heels]

We might as well give up if Enrique was our main attacker on the left wing.

[Il Capitano]

It wouldn't, the same problems would exist. Would lead to only one possible solution.

Replacing the fullbacks?

[PhaseOfPlay]

We might as well give up if Enrique was our main attacker on the left wing.

Given that our wingers cut in anyway on the left side, he already is.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Replacing the fullbacks?

Yep. It's coming. It won't be pleasant for some supporters, but these kinds of changes are on the way. Kelly would be a better wingback in a 3-5-2 than Johnson, for example - and if I remember correctly, he did that job to a good level under Kenny when Kenny first returned. If this Cissokho deal happens, then we have a natural wingback right there. Rodgers is piecing his team together, window by window. Some stalwarts might be finding themselves surplus to requirements.

[Juan Loco]

Yeah CB depth is definitely something I'd be concerned with.

I'd say both Wisdom and Kelly would be perfect for the RCB position for obvious reasons. Johnson at CB would be a little too much for me though. I'm not quite progressive enough for that. In any case, I think he'd be a great RWB.

Henderson is a good shout though for RWB. Stamina is really important for that position and he'd run any winger ragged.

Typically, what do you look for from the middle CB in a 3 CB formation? I'd think the outer two need some pace since they'll be pulled wide by attackers getting behind the wingbacks but what's the middle CB's required skill set?

To keep it on topic - yeah that Coutinho lad is boss eh?

Johnson actually played a centreback at West Ham. I think he'd be great in a back 3, but it depends how you want to look at it.

Wasn't part of the reason Cruyff went 3 at the back (and I assume Ajax under Van Gaal) to deal with teams who played two up front? Playing 3 always gave them the spare man at the back, but being Dutch they wanted to take it further. There's a video that Wickedbark put up where Cruyff discusses how he views a diamond midfield, but talks a bit about a back 3 in it. They knew Reiziger would move forward from there to attack as a fullback on occasions, but instead of being paranoid about being caught short at the back they choose to view this as a progressive way of playing instead of reacting constantly to the opposition. When Reiziger steps out then that means one of the two strikers has a choice about whether to track his run or stay back and leave it 2-vs-2 at the top end of the pitch. If you've got a midfield that doesn't give up the ball cheaply (which Rodgers won't ever consider and Barcelona and Ajax never did have) then if the striker chooses not to track the man from defence then they're left outnumbered somewhere up the pitch. If you've got the ball and a spare man, you're probably going to make a chance if you're not stupid. I would say the better the player breaking from the back is with the ball - Johnson is better than Reiziger - the more chance there is of you getting a good opportunity to score. You force one of the forwards to make a decision - track Johnson and leave his partner completely isolated up the pitch (2-vs-1 is worse again than 3-vs-2 unless you've got Didier Drogba), or let Johnson run free.

And here's the thing - get a forward to track that defenders run four or five times during a course of a game and see how much will he has to continue doing it for the rest of the match. It'll probably diminish. So as well as exhausting the main striker who has to compete 2-vs-1 for every ball down our defensive end of the pitch meaning the ball is almost always being recycled and we're immediately back on the attack, you're also exhausting his strike-partner mentally and physically and eventually - guaranteed - he'll ignore a run out of defence and that'll give an overload somewhere on the pitch.

... it's not for every game obviously. We don't exactly have Ajax '95 or Barcelona Dream Team quality. But it's something to consider against teams who go two up front against us but are basically looking to stay compact. Stoke, Hull, and probably Sunderland this season.

Not sure if PoP or Wickedbark would agree with that, but that's how I assumed Ajax, Cruyff's Dream Team and even occasionally Guardiola's Barcelona (especially in 2010-11) used the idea of a back 3. 

... Oh yeah, Coutinho... Good him.

[crofty]

If BR says we crafted the team around Suarez last season, I hope we craft it round Coutinho this season. Bit worried about this occurring since he's been out left a fair bit in pre-season. I feel bad for suggesting we leave Henderson out, though I'd happily put him in for Lucas in games where we need to break down the opposition. Last thing I want is to sacrifice Coutinho to the left to accommodate 3 others in midfield.

Off the top of me head:

Sturridge
Sterling - Coutinho - Aspas
Gerrard - Lucas
Enrique - Agger - Toure - Johnson
Mignolet

[CHOPPER]

We'd get ripped to bits. Stop thinking attack and think 'balance'.

Are Aspas and Sterling/Ibe going to offer the cover that our fullbacks don't just expect, they actually need. Especially when Johnson go's on one of his mazey runs and Enrique forgets what the word 'position' means.


3-5-2 and the land of the Dinosaurs offers that, but not that formation.


Who ever mentions 3-5-2 is a dinosaur and isn't really using a system to suit their players at their disposal, but is someone who has decided on a system, regardless.

[rscanderlech]

Glen Johnson and Martin Kelly become centrebacks, if you really want to push it down a more 'Dutch' route. You stick an actual winger as a wingback (or even Henderson if it's 3-5-2).

Yeah, sorry guys for drifting off topic, but...

Kelly, I can see, but I'd be worried to see Johnson there, since last season he was often found to be the one keeping opposition players onside, losing his balance at a critical moment and not marking properly.

To get back on topic... I think that another system that could leverage Coutinho's skill is a 4-4-2 diamond. I think of the Milan side of 2005-2009 ish and Kaka. It also seems to provide more cover in the centre of the pitch. I am imagining something like this:

Sturridge         Suarez
Coutinho
Gerrard        Henderson/Allen
Lucas
Enrique/LB        Agger        Toure/CB        Johnson/Kelly
Mignolet

What's the difference between this and the 3-5-2? I suppose that, in possession, the two can be very similar?

[Juan Loco]

We'd get ripped to bits. Stop thinking attack and think 'balance'.

Are Aspas and Sterling/Ibe going to offer the cover that our fullbacks don't just expect, they actually need. Especially when Johnson go's on one of his mazey runs and Enrique forgets what the word 'position' means.


3-5-2 and the land of the Dinosaurs offers that, but not that formation.


Who ever mentions 3-5-2 is a dinosaur and isn't really using a system to suit their players at their disposal, but is someone who has decided on a system, regardless.

Not sure that's the case at all Chops. Trying to think how many times we've seen 3 at the back under Rodgers so far, and I've got Everton twice, Chelsea, Anzhi away (also may have at home?) and Fulham away in the first half. In that time I think we've conceded 3 goals, one of which was from a corner. Not sure it stands up to be honest. Depends how you use it.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yeah, sorry guys for drifting off topic, but...

Kelly, I can see, but I'd be worried to see Johnson there, since last season he was often found to be the one keeping opposition players onside, losing his balance at a critical moment and not marking properly.

To get back on topic... I think that another system that could leverage Coutinho's skill is a 4-4-2 diamond. I think of the Milan side of 2005-2009 ish and Kaka. It also seems to provide more cover in the centre of the pitch. I am imagining something like this:

Sturridge         Suarez
Coutinho
Gerrard        Henderson/Allen
Lucas
Enrique/LB        Agger        Toure/CB        Johnson/Kelly
Mignolet

What's the difference between this and the 3-5-2? I suppose that, in possession, the two can be very similar?

You can't cover the width of the pitch on transition in that formation, unless Lucas drops in to be a bona fide central defender, which he doesn't. A back three would have three dedicated specialist defenders, so we could cover the width more effectively.

[rscanderlech]

You can't cover the width of the pitch on transition in that formation, unless Lucas drops in to be a bona fide central defender, which he doesn't. A back three would have three dedicated specialist defenders, so we could cover the width more effectively.

So why did it work for some teams in the past? (Given my scant knowledge of football tactics, I can only think of that Milan side.) Outstanding defence and midfielders who could all position themselves well?

[PhaseOfPlay]

So why did it work for some teams in the past? (Given my scant knowledge of football tactics, I can only think of that Milan side.) Outstanding defence and midfielders who could all position themselves well?

Yes, more or less. That and fullbacks who played more as fullbacks than wingbacks.

And which Milan are you talking about?

[Juan Loco]

Yes, more or less. That and fullbacks who played more as fullbacks than wingbacks.

And which Milan are you talking about?

Going to assume Ancelotti's between 2003-07, although they switched to more of a Christmas tree type formation for the latter half of that?

[CHOPPER]

Not sure that's the case at all Chops. Trying to think how many times we've seen 3 at the back under Rodgers so far, and I've got Everton twice, Chelsea, Anzhi away (also may have at home?) and Fulham away in the first half. In that time I think we've conceded 3 goals, one of which was from a corner. Not sure it stands up to be honest. Depends how you use it.

To be honest Juan, the 3-5-2 poo-poo is a hidden swipe at some esteemed posters(and not so esteemed moderators *you know who you are*) in here, regarding the system.

I've been an advocator of the system for over 3 season now and in the mean time, our personal hasn't changed that greatly to make me think why we shouldn't adopt it more often, if not all the time.

As we stand now, our fullbacks aren't full backs, well, not good defending ones anyway and our centre halves aren't just plain old stoppers - though Carra(did), Toure and Skrtel have that theme to them. 

Far to may people think 3-5-2 = 5-3-2, it doesn't - it offers what we've been lacking in ages in attack(circa 2 years ago and beyond and now even) which is numbers in attack.
Cut to today and Rodgers plays more with an attack mind, but he must really get to understand what he has if he wants to adopt a 3-5-2 system.
For me there are two foils(in my opinion) in a 3-5-2 first one is the back 3. In which I'd play a Kelly a Toure an Agger, even a Skrtel in there, defencively mobile players. Mobility being something I think Rodgers adores.
Then, give our two Fullbacks(I could think of more derogatory words for them) more of a licence to roam, which, is what they pretty much do now anyway, but allow them to be able to assist in the middle with a Lucas and Gerrard who in turn, act as another foil for Coutinho to reap fire and damnation on the opposition , with a Sturridge or an Aspas or even a Suarez to slot.

Two foils complementing one big system.

Easy this football manager thingy isn't it! 


All in my humble opinion of how we should play a 3-5-2, and don't forget - I'm either mental, or a complete mental genius. I think the former.

[rscanderlech]

Going to assume Ancelotti's between 2003-07, although they switched to more of a Christmas tree type formation for the latter half of that?

Yep, that's the one.

Thanks, PoP.

[PhaseOfPlay]

To be honest Juan, the 3-5-2 poo-poo is a hidden swipe at some esteemed posters(and not so esteemed moderators *you know who you are*) in here, regarding the system.

I've been an advocator of the system for over 3 season now and in the mean time, our personal hasn't changed that greatly to make me think why we shouldn't adopt it more often, if not all the time.

As we stand now, our fullbacks aren't full backs, well, not good defending ones anyway and our centre halves aren't just plain old stoppers - though Carra(did), Toure and Skrtel have that theme to them. 

Far to may people think 3-5-2 = 5-3-2, it doesn't - it offers what we've been lacking in ages in attack(circa 2 years ago and beyond and now even) which is numbers in attack.
Cut to today and Rodgers plays more with an attack mind, but he must really get to understand what he has if he wants to adopt a 3-5-2 system.
For me there are two foils(in my opinion) in a 3-5-2 first one is the back 3. In which I'd play a Kelly a Toure an Agger, even a Skrtel in there, defencively mobile players. Mobility being something I think Rodgers adores.
Then, give our two Fullbacks(I could think of more derogatory words for them) more of a licence to roam, which, is what they pretty much do now anyway, but allow them to be able to assist in the middle with a Lucas and Gerrard who in turn, act as another foil for Coutinho to reap fire and damnation on the opposition , with a Sturridge or an Aspas or even a Suarez to slot.

Two foils complementing one big system.

Easy this football manager thingy isn't it! 


All in my humble opinion of how we should play a 3-5-2, and don't forget - I'm either mental, or a complete mental genius. I think the former.

So that's three of us on the dark side...


We could be our own back three! Chopper in the middle, me on the right, and Juan Loco on the left

Anyone else want to come out of the 3-5-2 closet?

[Geormajesty]

Anyone else want to come out of the 3-5-2 closet?

Yeah, it's an option that could benefit members of the squad so it's definitely worth looking at for certain games. I'd like to see Sterling as a floating striker with Coutinho behind him and it could help get Wisdom and Kelly games at centre back.

My only worry would be that I don't think we looked particularly fluent when we used it last season. I'll ignore Anzhi because of the strength of the team we played, but when we switched to it against Everton we were quite defensive and slow and against Chelsea and Fulham, where we started with a back three so you'd imagine we'd trained with that formation during the week (although maybe you can correct me on this, PoP?) it didn't quite work and we shifted to 4-2-3-1 at half time.

[Zeb]

I quite liked Roy Evans' teams. Bring in an Ince (Keane would be better) and we're sorted.  (Not being fully serious)

[Dentron]

Some people are outing themselves as fifa players in this thread

[007.lankyguy]

So that's three of us on the dark side...


We could be our own back three! Chopper in the middle, me on the right, and Juan Loco on the left

Anyone else want to come out of the 3-5-2 closet?

I'll come out in terms of I started writing a piece for my blog a couple of months ago going to into numerous tactical reasons we should use it (although I never actually finished the piece). I'm only in support of it though on the basis of Suarez staying and us getting another centre back.

Also, I'm calling it 3-4-1-2 instead of 3-5-2 which just sounds much cooler 

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'll come out in terms of I started writing a piece for my blog a couple of months ago going to into numerous tactical reasons we should use it (although I never actually finished the piece). I'm only in support of it though on the basis of Suarez staying and us getting another centre back.

Also, I'm calling it 3-4-1-2 instead of 3-5-2 which just sounds much cooler 

Lucchesi would be proud

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yeah, it's an option that could benefit members of the squad so it's definitely worth looking at for certain games. I'd like to see Sterling as a floating striker with Coutinho behind him and it could help get Wisdom and Kelly games at centre back.

My only worry would be that I don't think we looked particularly fluent when we used it last season. I'll ignore Anzhi because of the strength of the team we played, but when we switched to it against Everton we were quite defensive and slow and against Chelsea and Fulham, where we started with a back three so you'd imagine we'd trained with that formation during the week (although maybe you can correct me on this, PoP?) it didn't quite work and we shifted to 4-2-3-1 at half time.

It requires weekly training. That's why Rafa was so dedicated to working on different formations as a matter of course. The general idea is workable with a few sessions, but getting the fluency and rhythm of the movements, and the recovery runs on transition, is what takes time.

Incidentally, I thought we played well in the 3-5-2 against Everton. As I said at the time, Wisdom was getting isolated, so playing the back three meant he could get cover without sacrificing the middle. If I remember correctly, we could have scored on a counter-attack with Sterling, and they didn't look like getting past us, so that game actually game me a bit of hope. The only problem was that it was Wisdom at right wingback, and he isn't an aggressive attacker, and Johnson plays very conservatively on the left for him, so he didn't get forward as much. But with two solid attacking wingbacks, we could use the formation to dominate at least the bottom 10 teams without fearing the sucker-punch through the middle.

[babraham]

Johnson actually played a centreback at West Ham. I think he'd be great in a back 3, but it depends how you want to look at it.

Wasn't part of the reason Cruyff went 3 at the back (and I assume Ajax under Van Gaal) to deal with teams who played two up front? Playing 3 always gave them the spare man at the back, but being Dutch they wanted to take it further. There's a video that Wickedbark put up where Cruyff discusses how he views a diamond midfield, but talks a bit about a back 3 in it. They knew Reiziger would move forward from there to attack as a fullback on occasions, but instead of being paranoid about being caught short at the back they choose to view this as a progressive way of playing instead of reacting constantly to the opposition. When Reiziger steps out then that means one of the two strikers has a choice about whether to track his run or stay back and leave it 2-vs-2 at the top end of the pitch. If you've got a midfield that doesn't give up the ball cheaply (which Rodgers won't ever consider and Barcelona and Ajax never did have) then if the striker chooses not to track the man from defence then they're left outnumbered somewhere up the pitch. If you've got the ball and a spare man, you're probably going to make a chance if you're not stupid. I would say the better the player breaking from the back is with the ball - Johnson is better than Reiziger - the more chance there is of you getting a good opportunity to score. You force one of the forwards to make a decision - track Johnson and leave his partner completely isolated up the pitch (2-vs-1 is worse again than 3-vs-2 unless you've got Didier Drogba), or let Johnson run free.

And here's the thing - get a forward to track that defenders run four or five times during a course of a game and see how much will he has to continue doing it for the rest of the match. It'll probably diminish. So as well as exhausting the main striker who has to compete 2-vs-1 for every ball down our defensive end of the pitch meaning the ball is almost always being recycled and we're immediately back on the attack, you're also exhausting his strike-partner mentally and physically and eventually - guaranteed - he'll ignore a run out of defence and that'll give an overload somewhere on the pitch.

... it's not for every game obviously. We don't exactly have Ajax '95 or Barcelona Dream Team quality. But it's something to consider against teams who go two up front against us but are basically looking to stay compact. Stoke, Hull, and probably Sunderland this season.

Not sure if PoP or Wickedbark would agree with that, but that's how I assumed Ajax, Cruyff's Dream Team and even occasionally Guardiola's Barcelona (especially in 2010-11) used the idea of a back 3. 

... Oh yeah, Coutinho... Good him.

Cheers for the post. Consider me educated. Well...relatively...

In theory I understand. I suppose one just needs to see it in action before one can fully buy in? Johnson at CB is a mental hurdle too far for me at this point in time.

Didn't know that about Johnson at West Ham.

[babraham]

So that's three of us on the dark side...


We could be our own back three! Chopper in the middle, me on the right, and Juan Loco on the left

Anyone else want to come out of the 3-5-2 closet?

Nice, so I gingerly come over to the dark side and get left on the bench!

Did I even make the bench?

Maybe I'll just go make my own two banks of four with Big Sam, Roy and Tony Pulis.

Big Sam says your little fancy feet foreigner Coutinho is too lightweight for the Premier League and he's going to kick the shit out of him.

[End Product]

Why is three at the back the dark side?

 Is it because people under estimate the power of the dark side ?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Nice, so I gingerly come over to the dark side and get left on the bench!

Did I even make the bench?

Maybe I'll just go make my own two banks of four with Big Sam, Roy and Tony Pulis.

Big Sam says your little fancy feet foreigner Coutinho is too lightweight for the Premier League and he's going to kick the shit out of him.

You can take my spot, then, and I'll go right wingback, where I used to play anyway for a bit. We need a left wingback now. Who's in?

[007.lankyguy]

Am I able to drop to the bench seeing as my supporting of it has certain conditions?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Am I able to drop to the bench seeing as my supporting of it has certain conditions?

You can, but you're not getting back on without a public apology.

[babraham]

You can take my spot, then, and I'll go right wingback, where I used to play anyway for a bit. We need a left wingback now. Who's in?

Well alright then. I hope you don't mind a 5'8 CB though.

To my credit, I have the pace for a high line. I'm quite happy camping on the halfway line.

[Nessy76]

Are you joking? For a kick off there isn't a month of the transfer window left. Secondly the season starts next week, window open or not. Thirdly this team is 6th to 5th at most in quality. Fourth if we are lucky and the likes of united arsenal and spurs have a shitter of a season.

I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and go all ga ga over a squad I don't think is good enough to achieve its aims in the first place. It hard enough having a daily dose of realism from where we once where. If you wasn't to feel positive for the sake of it good luck, but your disappointment will hit harder in reality.

Don't understand this pie in the sky theory about being happy clappy well the time, gets you nowhere.

Grow a pair.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Well alright then. I hope you don't mind a 5'8 CB though.

To my credit, I have the pace for a high line. I'm quite happy camping on the halfway line.

Height is overrated

[SlowRap]

Expanding on his plans for Coutinho, Rodgers continued: "No question, Coutinho's best position is the No.10.

"And once we get the right kind of quality to put on the sides, he will play in that central role. That is where he affects the game best.

"At the moment, he has the licence to jump in and come inside - joining in and making passes, and we accommodate defensively when he does that.

"But there is no doubt, his best position is in the middle."

Love this

[Nazi Dickhead]

Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge with Gerrard behind them is a fantastic attack. I would hope to see that at least once before January because my word that would be some show of talent.

[Phil M]

Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge with Gerrard behind them is a fantastic attack. I would hope to see that at least once before January because my word that would be some show of talent.

It certainly would.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/D3BiDH9CkmA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/D3BiDH9CkmA</a>

[Nazi Dickhead]

It certainly would.

I thought just now that they had probably already played together. Can't watch videos right now, I'm guessing they all played in that game? 

[007.lankyguy]

That's good to hear.

[edge]

Expanding on his plans for Coutinho, Rodgers continued: "No question, Coutinho's best position is the No.10.

"And once we get the right kind of quality to put on the sides, he will play in that central role. That is where he affects the game best.

"At the moment, he has the licence to jump in and come inside - joining in and making passes, and we accommodate defensively when he does that.

"But there is no doubt, his best position is in the middle."

Love this

Loving these quotes. Hope we get a left winger in soon!

[LFC when it suits]

Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge with Gerrard behind them is a fantastic attack. I would hope to see that at least once before January because my word that would be some show of talent.

But how about in Defence?

[Kovai Red]

But how about in Defence?

Toure, Agger ahead of Mignolet is a good defense

[Phil M]

I thought just now that they had already probably already played together. Can't watch videos right now, I'm guessing they all played in that game? 

They sure did.