Topic: Arsenal 2-2 Liverpool - Round Table

[TitanTrigger]

I don't understand this forum's love affair with Carragher.  He did well, but he's never gonna be anything other than a stand-in for br's main cast.  A new team is being built. 

I think the commentator said that no-one was marking girou for arsenal's first goal.  Looked to me like carra really fucked that one up.  That's all it takes at the highest level, just one mistake, one goal.  He was in the team out of necessity, or else i think brendan just respects his knowledge of the game. 

but everyone's young nowadays, really fit and carraghers had a few too many cheese and onion pasties.

Watch it again, Agger was marking Giroud, Carra was marking Podolski. Agger tries to get to the ball before Giroud but misjudges the flight and it ends up going over his head.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

I don't understand this forum's love affair with Carragher.  He did well, but he's never gonna be anything other than a stand-in for br's main cast.  A new team is being built. 

I think the commentator said that no-one was marking girou for arsenal's first goal.  Looked to me like carra really fucked that one up.  That's all it takes at the highest level, just one mistake, one goal.  He was in the team out of necessity, or else i think brendan just respects his knowledge of the game.   

Carragher is one of the best servants that this club has ever had. That's why there might be a "love affair" with him

Agger was marking Giroud.

Forgot to say it in my OP, but worth adding now (having seen Corkboy's post there) - how good is Jack Wilshere?

Surely the finest midfield talent England have produced since Gerrard?

without doubt

[Vulmea]

Who has alleged the decision was Carragher's Vulmea? I don't think you blame him for the team selection or set up, but it's a debate, isn't it?

Carragher in a deep set up is a chicken and egg thing. You yourself tend to say a side should set up based on the players available, not the other way round. The side was deeper last night against a side with burning pace up front, and with Carragher in the back line. Carragher's great in that deeper set up - the Carling Cup semi 1st leg last season was a great example - we were being pushed deeper and when he came on, we looked far more comfortable for his being there. Sitting deeper isn't an issue in itself. But if people feel Wisdom looked lost and tentative, it's as much as symptom of a set up (and a player alongside him) he's uncomfortable with as Carragher doing well was of a set up he is comfortable with. We extend the benefit of that doubt to Carragher, but not to Wisdom.

It's the debate we've been inching towards in the Systems threads - players, systems, and the effect they can have on each other. I personally think Carragher's being there made the passing in that area (Wisdom, Downing, Lucas, Henderson) that bit more laboured and risky. Wisdom suffered most but he wasn't alone. On the other side it was less of a problem wasn't it?

We're not giving Arsenal much credit by the way. And again we're not acknowledging our own limitations.

the implication by you and Ari in this thread and in any game the lad plays now by the greater multitude is he drags us back, that he determines where we defend - now on occasion that may be right yesterday that clearly was not the case - it was a plan by BR - against Norwich I think it was, he was accused of it again even though it was shown we played a higher line than usual - its now a long established bias and something we need to be careful of and yes I know I do it meself

also the idea that Wisdom played poorly because of Carragher I can't get my head round. He played no better or worse than he has all season, there was no evidence of Carra's malign influence against Oldham or Sunderland first half -  I just see it as lazy and convenient to blame the old un rather than the system (which placed him under more pressure) and the momentum we gave away (again) which were imho far more culpable.

despite appearances I'm not a big fan of Carra,  I still hold it against him that game he fell on his arse backing away from Henry at Highbury - Carra never fancied it against that lad but nor do I like Carra getting unfairly criticised.

As for the passing on the right being poor I thought the passing throughout the team including agger and Johnson and SG was pretty poor second half - we lost composure and movement, we wanted too much time and couldn't match their tempo and even when we did find space we had a tendency to play back into trouble rather than switch play

[DanA]

I thought we got it right we just conceded a cheap goal and then our confidence went. We conceded another set piece goal which is getting really frustrating now. Even in the game against Norwich we're we dominated, we gave that player a free header from a set piece which fortunately went straight to Jones. It's a real worry with our defense at the moment.

It's something that needs addressing, both giving away free kicks near the box and these set piece goals (the last few weeks)

[Torpedo Tommy]

Would have probably taken a point beforehand.  But after being 2-0 up I reckon it is 2 dropped to be fair.

If we must persevere with sitting so deep and passing so much in our own half we must be much more confident in doing it, work much harder to give the chap with the ball options and get the ball moving much quicker.

Our movement in the final third was much better but was probably helped by really shite defending by Arsenal.  We seem to be sorting the goalscoring out but seem to be suffering at the back more. 

We used to sit deep under Ged and at times under Rafa but we had tactical discipline when doing it.  There would be at least evidence of a strategy.  Last night we seemed to repeat what we have done on countless occasions over the last 3-4 years.  There doesn't seem any intent for anyone but the one or two most advanced players to stray out of our half.

We're obviously incapable of closing a game out so we might as well conceded 2 trying to get a 3rd.  Both full backs suffered with some of their distribution pretty woeful as their options weren't fantastic.  The substitution of Sturridge was a funny one.  He was a pace outlet that I think we could have used if we could string 2 or 3 passes together.

We're showing signs of improvement in some areas but signs of repeating the mistakes of old in others.  Half expected this season to be as it has been.  Will be disappointed if the same mistakes are repeated next season.

[stockdam]

It seems like many people watched different games.

For me we were pretty consistent throughout the game and it was Arsenal who were Jekyll and Hyde.

In the first half they played sporadically and their defence was poor. They just didn't play as a team. However they always looked dangerous in attack........but so did we.


In the 2nd half they started to control midfield and to pass the ball around at speed. Wilshire started to carve through us and was their best player. I think that anyone who says that we should have closed out the game at 2-0 is doing Arsenal a dis-service. They began to play very good football with control and with pace that we as a team cannot do. They were rampant at one stage and we did very well to contain them to just 2 goals. We could have nicked one right at the end. Overall a draw was fair.

Lots of people seem to want to blame Carragher for almost everything. He played well and tried to get the defence to play as a unit. He is not to blame for the lapses in concentration that led to their goals nor Johnston missing Walcott's run and header.

Wisdom looked lost at times. he did fairly well but he isn't yet comfortable on the ball and wants to get rid of it quickly under pressure.

We lost control of midfield and didn't put enough pressure on their midfield. they cut through us at will towards the end.

Henderson's goal was brilliant and I thought that this would win us the match. However it just spurred them on to played better and we couldn't live with it. As a team we weren't quick enough to the ball and we sat off them as we "knew" they would run past us.

Our possession football is about keeping the ball and moving it round in circles. Arsenal's possession football is about passing it quickly and beating a player........they are more direct than we are and we have a long way to go.

Overall I think we played well and we certainly didn't sit back and invite them to come on. They pushed us back and were very dangerous. I enjoyed the game and I thought our commitment was good..........much better than the pathetic display against Oldham.

I was disappointed that we didn't win but you have to give credit to Arsenal who would have destroyed a lot of other teams in the 2nd half.

[soberphobia]

I think there are a few good things to gain from the game. Firstly scoring two goals away from home against a good opponent was a pipedream only a short while ago. Being ahead without being totally dominant was almost unheard of. The addition of Sturridge and a few goals from midfield of late have given the side more of an attacking threat. Similarly i think our defence has looked more shaky than it has in a while. We really do have an issue at CB neither of our first choices are in good touch and all great teams have a reliable CB pairing.

Lucas looks to be running himself back into touch but he has missed a good part of two seasons so it will take a while.He was pretty good in this game but not at his sparkling best. Conceding a goal from another set piece was the most disappointing thing for me. That is just poor organisation and discipline. It has cost us 4 points from Arsenal and the Mancs where both of those goals should never have been conceded. It was just poor football pure and simple. After the city game we get a really good run but i would like to see us solidify the back 4 and get a run of games into the first choices to have a really good look at them before the summer.

Getting a point at the Emirates can never be a bad result and in truth their defence was worse than ours but as much as we are getting better offensively the rearguard really is a concern.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I was disappointed that we didn't win but you have to give credit to Arsenal who would have destroyed a lot of other teams in the 2nd half.

If you let Arsenal play football they can.  We dropped further and further back as we seem to have got into a trait of doing over the last few years.  We aren't organised and don't work hard.

We have to learn how to either close a game out or just keep on risking a goal by keeping our options moving at the other end.  Sturridge became ever more isolated as Suarez dropped deeper towards the left back spot.

Two teams we cannot afford to give the field up to are United and Arsenal.  In both games against these two we have had a go and looked the more likely team.  However, in both game we have had spells were we have dropped off them and paid the price.

We'll learn.  Maybe not this season but I have faith that we will learn soon.

[timmyonions]

Would have accepted a point beforehand no doubt,but in the end with ten minutes to go i feared we had thrown it away.So to get out of there with something is commendable.

Our performance first half was efficient and we used the ball well on the break.One up at the interval,we could and should have been two at least.Henderson is really coming into his own and his support of Suarez and Sturridge was good.

I see some critisism of wisdom in here form some people,i thought he did ok.Nothing spectaclular,but didn`t have a shocker either.

It`s never easy to take throwing away a two goal lead but second half our workrate,which was outstanding in  the first,faded somewhat.We couldn`t keep the pressure on their midfield like we had been doing and Carzola and Wilshire in particular started to dictate the game.They turned the tempo right up and scored two quick goals.

If only we could have held on after our second,even for ten minutes,we might have seen it through.

It's something that needs addressing, both giving away free kicks near the box and these set piece goals (the last few weeks)

Completely agree with you on this Dan.The disappointing thing is Giroud is their number one threat when it comes to headers and he was left all alone,unchallenged to knock it in.Our defending in our own box is weak and teams know it.There`s a pattern appearing and we need to be more nasty and cute when defending.

[TomDcs]

Great post especially the last bit.

[GrkStav]

I am going to try to keep it relatively short:

I really still do not understand the rationale for the inclusion of Carragher. I thought he was okay, but what was it that he contributed that Skrtel couldn't contribute? The notion that in the absence of Carragher we're not defensively organized is a bit far-fetched to me. And, if there's a difference of interpretation of the gaffer's instructions or plan between Carragher and Lucas (as there appeared to be at some point), my bet would be that Lucas's version is the correct one. But that may just be me.

As much as I am one Lucas' biggest, staunchest supporters I think that had Allen come in for him perhaps after Arsenal scored their first, we'd have been better off.

Suarez on the left flank of a 4-1-4-1 defensive formation worked for only so long because of the sheer doggedness and determination of Suarez. Given that he had played the entire 90 mins vs. Oldham, the fact that he tired visibly in the second half ought to have been expected. Furthermore, Suarez is definitively not the player you want assisting the LB and the nearest CB and CM building up play going forward. The number of times he surrendered possession not only cheaply but dangerously from that position when we were either trying to counter-attack or to relieve pressure and build up patiently was remarkable. HIS kind of trickery does not work in that position, that deep back in his own half. It's a luxury that we cannot afford vs the likes of Arsenal.

I wasn't thrilled with Sturridge's performance. If your teammate gets you one on one with the opposition keeper and with Wishere trying to cover, you should do something a bit better than that shot he had. In general, he was a bit too slow on the uptake-anticipation in both marking/pressing from the top and in reacting to promising passes not directly to his feet.

Wisdom, I thought, was not very poised vs Arsenal. And, a few too many times, destroyed any hope of building a good positive move forward by being too tentative, dilly-dallying and then being forced to play the ball back to Carragher or Reina.

Downing? I don't know, any 'winger', even playing inverted, who cannot take on and beat Santos one-on-one needs to take a good, hard look at himself.

Reina: Great saves and all that but anyone who tells me he was not at fault for Walcott's goal is pissing down my leg and telling me it's raining.

Sorry for the less than 'learned' contribution.

[stockdam]

Completely agree with you on this Dan.The disappointing thing is Giroud is their number one threat when it comes to headers and he was left all alone,unchallenged to knock it in.Our defending in our own box is weak and teams know it.There`s a pattern appearing and we need to be more nasty and cute when defending.

I wonder if we are lacking a good defensive coach. I see other teams "lean" into attackers and prevent them from getting clean headers. We seem to want to play fair and not put them off but try to win the ball ourselves. I think there's a lot that can be done "within the rules" that makes it hard for a tall attacker to get a good clean header; jumping into an attacker is an art that we don't seem to have mastered. You don't foul them cleanly..........just slyly.

[timmyonions]

I wonder if we are lacking a good defensive coach. I see other teams "lean" into attackers and prevent them from getting clean headers. We seem to want to play fair and not put them off but try to win the ball ourselves. I think there's a lot that can be done "within the rules" that makes it hard for a tall attacker to get a good clean header; jumping into an attacker is an art that we don't seem to have mastered. You don't foul them cleanly..........just slyly.

Exactly,we`re too nice defendng set pieces.We`re letting attackers get a free run and at best running alongside them.Why not just block their run altogether? It can be done with the correct organisation.

[careca]

well entertaining more of that please

[richmiller1]

Odd match and a pretty odd performance on our part.

If Norwich had me reaching for (very loose) Barcelona comparrisons, the first half yesterday had a hint of the Houllier era about it and wasn't really something I thought a Rodgers team was capable of. I enjoyed it a lot We gave Arsenal very little joy despite surrendering the majority of possession and had a bit of mennace about us on the counter. I doubt we'll see that sort iof thing very often but it was nice to see that we could approach a game in a slightly different fashion.

However, it all fell apart a bit in the second half so taken as a whole it pretty neatly sums us up. Heading in the right direction just not reliably.

As for why it went wrong, at the time I had assumed it was mainly fatigue, Sturridge was shot, Gerrard and Lucus had retreated to the point they were almost treading on Carragher's toes and had basicly stopped pressing. Even Suarez had noticeably slowed. Only Henderson kept up the pace and pressing but with nobody else working in tandem with him his efforts were wasted and actually made things worse as whoever he closed had an easy out ball leaving Hendo marooned miles away from the action. Wilshire, Ramsay and Carzola suddenly found they had an extra five yards/ half second in which to play and consequently tore us to pieces. But then suddenly with five minutes to go it switched, we had a midfield again and came right back into it, so plainly our mentality was at least equally to blame.


Henderson was very impressive for me. Yes his execution left a little to be desired on a couple of occassions in the first half but when he came unstuck it was always in attempting to do the right thing, certainly nothing wrong with his vision, just his composure, and at any rate such lapses were very fleeting as shown by the assist and goal. Phyically he is immense, quick, graceful and must be about the fittest player in the league. For 90 minutes solid he was just launching himself after Arsenal players at top speed and his pressing is very effective to boot, unlike say Joe Allen he doesn't just arrive at an opponent and then stand off, he genuinely goes after the ball. It was only the comparative lack of stamina/ desire from those around him that stoppeed that pressing being effective for the whole 90 minutes. He genuinely seems to be growing with each game, a bit more confidence and he'll soon be using his quick feet and bursts of acceleration to exploit those gaps that open up in front of him when he has the ball at his feet. When that happens he really will be a player.

Carra did alright, very well in fact given his particular circumstances but I think much of the praise has been over the top which in turn is probably a reaction to the shameful stick he takes from some quarters.

Regardless of who plays at the back we don't half look vulnerable from set pieces/ crosses, we honestly look likely to concede from every one of late and i'm not convinced Rodgers has anything up his sleeves to resolve the problem. Sadly it may well have to be as simple as the purchase of a new commanding centre half willing to take responsibility for getting their head on the ball with some regularity.

Shame we didn't get the win, as I suspect we are on a hiding to nothing this weekend, which in turn is going to put the pressure right back on Rodgers. That said, regardless of that second half and anything that may come this weekend i'm pretty happy with where things are heading and these bumps along the way are, in the cold light of day, pretty much inevitable..........and neither us or Arsenal are going to get Champions league football this year so it all matters not a jot.

[Timbo's Goals]

I agree, generally, but I think you're going a mite over the top. Wilshere is a gem, as I said above, but if you think we couldn't get the ball off him, you were watching a different game, especially in the first half. Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to recall Wilshere getting robbed several times by us, even in the second half. And again, you're right, he does have brilliant "first five yards" pace but don't forget his dead ball delivery either. His free for the Giroud goal was perfect. Having said that, I was thinking during the game that Cazorla is a mighty man for a corner, every one straight into the mixer at pace.

Wilshere is a real talent, buckets of potential, but Souness? Not having that.

Nah. Fair enough like but for me he's the real deal already so on that score we'll just have to agree to disagree. His potential is long gone if for such a rare talent it ever could have been termed potential. Sure he'll get better as he matures and adds extra dimensions to his game but as a top class proper controlling midfielder he's so blessed with that once in a generation talent he transcends any tag of 'potential'. In that sort of role only Xavi and Iniesta are currently ahead of him for me.

He's just turned 21. He's a few months or so  back from serious injury. Yet he was head and shoulders above anybody on that pitch last night. Different class. By some distance. He played as if he'd never had an injury in his life let alone a career threatening mystery one that caused him to miss an entire season and a half.

First time I ever noticed Souness was at Anfield in '76/77 playing for Middlesborough when he bossed the midfield from virtually a 20 yard radius in the middle of the pitch spraying balls left right and centre. He stood out with his Fellaini busby haircut. But it was clear he was a controlling midfield player better than anything we had in midfield at the time. And we had some terrific midfield players in Case, McDermott, Cally and Kennedy. He was 25. Thank god Bob P could spot the real deal because a year later he was our controlling midfield player. The finest in that role we've ever had with only Xabi coming close.

Wilshere for me is at that sort of level already. No fuckin danger. As envious as that makes me as there's no chance of bringing him here as we did with Souey it's till a thrill to witness such an exceptional talent

 

[stockdam]

As for why it went wrong, at the time I had assumed it was mainly fatigue, Sturridge was shot, Gerrard and Lucus had retreated to the point they were almost treading on Carragher's toes and had basicly stopped pressing. Even Suarez had noticeably slowed. Only Henderson kept up the pace and pressing but with nobody else working in tandem with him his efforts were wasted and actually made things worse as whoever he closed had an easy out ball leaving Hendo marooned miles away from the action. Wilshire, Ramsay and Carzola suddenly found they had an extra five yards/ half second in which to play and consequently tore us to pieces. But then suddenly with five minutes to go it switched, we had a midfield again and came right back into it, so plainly our mentality was at least equally to blame.

I think Brendan should have brought on fresh legs in midfield. We lack another Lucas style player but maybe anyone who could match the energy of the Arsenal midfield would have helped.

[Timbo's Goals]

I thought we got it right we just conceded a cheap goal and then our confidence went.

Just cannot fathom how you can say that when there were at least a dozen occasions when Arsenal's superb attacking play tore us to ribbons and we were a block, a last ditch tackle or a scuffed shot or whatever away from conceding. Don't get me wrong the defensive blocks and tackles are a credit to us and we had more than our fair share of moments at their end when we could have scored but to make it seem as if we drew because our confidence went is just not seeing it as it was.

We drew because they were good enough to pull back that two goal deficit. How they managed it - whether it be a defensive lapse of some sort or terrific play by them - doesn't alter the fact they well deserved it in any reasonable assessment of that game

[richmiller1]

I think Brendan should have brought on fresh legs in midfield. We lack another Lucas style player but maybe anyone who could match the energy of the Arsenal midfield would have helped.

The lack of substitutions was another odd feature given how comprehensively we were being over run at that time, it didn't even need to be Lucas, Borini or Sterling for Downing would have been worth a shout. I also thought Sturridge was withdrawn five minutes too late

[gatcliffe]

2 points dropped for me anyway not seen it wriitten anywhere else but thought Sturridges reaction to being taken off could have been better no handshake offered to BR

[stockdam]

Just cannot fathom how you can say that when there were at least a dozen occasions when Arsenal's superb attacking play tore us to ribbons and we were a block, a last ditch tackle or a scuffed shot or whatever away from conceding. Don't get me wrong the defensive blocks and tackles are a credit to us and we had more than our fair share of moments at their end when we could have scored but to make it seem as if we drew because our confidence went is just not seeing it as it was.

We drew because they were good enough to pull back that two goal deficit. How they managed it - whether it be a defensive lapse of some sort or terrific play by them - doesn't alter the fact they well deserved it in any reasonable assessment of that game

I fully agree. Some people are not giving Arsenal credit........their 2nd half display would have destroyed a lot of teams and we did well to end 2-2. We maybe could have disrupted them more when in full flow but I don't think we have the players to do so.

[gatcliffe]

I wonder if we are lacking a good defensive coach. I see other teams "lean" into attackers and prevent them from getting clean headers. We seem to want to play fair and not put them off but try to win the ball ourselves. I think there's a lot that can be done "within the rules" that makes it hard for a tall attacker to get a good clean header; jumping into an attacker is an art that we don't seem to have mastered. You don't foul them cleanly..........just slyly.

He is in the wings waiting Carra

[Corkboy]

Wilshere for me is at that sort of level already. No fuckin danger. As envious as that makes me as there's no chance of bringing him here as we did with Souey it's till a thrill to witness such an exceptional talent

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes. I followed him when he was at Bolton, he has everything and is so calm on the ball, beautiful balance. He also has a bit of a snarl, and it's not a red mist snarl, more a controlled, premeditated thing. Fuck, maybe you're right with the Souness comparison....

[Timbo's Goals]

I fully agree. Some people are not giving Arsenal credit........their 2nd half display would have destroyed a lot of teams and we did well to end 2-2. We maybe could have disrupted them more when in full flow but I don't think we have the players to do so.

I agree.

I actually would go further than that as I think that Arsenal's defensive problems and the opportunities we had to score more goals detracted in many people's eyes from what was a pretty decent first half offensive performance from Arsenal full of determined and fine attacking play. Not as penetrative as they became in the second half after we'd gone two up but there were still long stretches of that first half when we had to work very very hard just to contain them and prevent them breaking through.

I thought Alan Smith and Martin Tyler and Hoddle and Redknapp also got that wrong in their summations of the opening half no doubt their view warped by the opportunities our own fine  play had managed to create which they put down to Arsenal shortcomings rather than our good play. In stark contrast Arsene Wenger for once got it right when he said his team had played well offensively from the start of the game not just the second half.

All that said I thought we were superb in managing to stay with them in a game that really could have swung either way.

[Black Bull Nova]

It's bizarre last season we knocked United and City out of the Cups beat Chelsea three times and won at the Emirates so we have no reason to fear the top sides, yet this season especially away from home we have given them way too much respect early on in games.

Indeed, if we split the PL into three sub leagues, we used to be at the lower end of the top one but comfortable there, without fear.

We now sit proudly at or near the top of the second tier where teams like us and Everton regard those above them in the aforementioned top table as 'scalps'

[Timbo's Goals]

I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes. I followed him when he was at Bolton, he has everything and is so calm on the ball, beautiful balance. He also has a bit of a snarl, and it's not a red mist snarl, more a controlled, premeditated thing. Fuck, maybe you're right with the Souness comparison....

I sort of hate it in a way when I get excited by British talent at another club. I want them to be reds. But I guess we all have these footy demons inside us that crave the emergence of great talent wherever it emerges. I mean who amongst us never thrilled to see Gazza or Georgie Best or Jimmy Johnstone in full flow? Its almost like some primeval instinct that is present in all of us and gets unleashed when we see genius emerging within our game.

But let's change the tune from an Arsenal shitbag eh Corkie. What about that 40 yard pass from Luis to Sturridge? Now was that different class or was that different class?

 

[stockdam]

I sort of hate it in a way when I get excited by British talent at another club.

Yes he is a very good player. I don't mind other teams having good players. If we played against mediocre teams every week then it would take away the interest. I would hate to be a Celtic fan as there is no real competition.

If we come up against good players then it motivates our players to be as good (well sometimes). It also means more to us when we come up against the best and we outplay them. In sport you need a good opponent otherwise it becomes boring and predictable.

[stockdam]

.........there were still long stretches of that first half when we had to work very very hard just to contain them and prevent them breaking through.

In the first half, both teams looked very dangerous and as you said we did very well to contain them. Our defence were better in the first half and we matched them in midfield. But whether we ran out of energy or maybe Arsenal upped their game, we really struggled in the 2nd half. Those who point out the negatives are not seeing how well Arsenal played and how well we defended as a team.

I can only take positives from a very exciting match. I wish we could have regained control but deep down I know that we just didn't have the overall quality to do so. We are not top 4 material yet and let's hope that we can slowly build and find some emerging talent.

Arsenal played as we would like to play but our passing is too slow and our movement isn't there yet.

[Vulmea]

I fully agree. Some people are not giving Arsenal credit........their 2nd half display would have destroyed a lot of teams and we did well to end 2-2. We maybe could have disrupted them more when in full flow but I don't think we have the players to do so.

Their 2nd half display does not happen in isolation - we had better attacking players than they had defenders but we never saw that disparity second half - this wasn't because Arsenal are such an incredible attacking machine it was because we retreated to 18 yards and said ok lets see how good your good attacking players can be - it played to their strengths and denied us ours. Ok they made a couple of tactical switches Wilshere moved forward they tried to use the width but we encouraged them to do it- we allowed their backline to push right up, allowed them to press continually in our half because we'd dropped right back and offered next to no threat. 

Suarez spending his time marking Sagna instead of terrorising Mertesacker was a bizarre tactic

there were options to expose Arsenals mediocrity even with the players you dont seem to rate but we opted for the apparent and misleading safety of our 18 yard line and then were surprised that Arsenal dominated and looked good.

Downing didn't need to transform into Ronaldo to expose Santos, Suarez didn't need to learn to shimmy like Henderson to expose Mertesacker, Sturridge only had to stay on his feet to get the advantage over Sagna - we just needed to give them the ball and watch the damage they could cause and we couldn't do it, we failed under pressure, and having failed to keep the ball, we failed in plan B - we failed to turn their back line, we just needed to expose them, turn them round get them back 10 yards create some space for our midfield to turn and we didn't do that either - these were our failings not Arsenals attacking superiority.

the idea we did well to end 2-2 from a 2-0 lead when our forward line should be shredding that backline says it all about how poorly we rate ourselves - how can we berate the players lack of belief and confidence when we dont have any ourselves. Suarez and Sturridge are a match for any defence in the prem. If we trust them and if we get them the ball. Gerrard, Lucas and Henderson is a more than capable midfield which should be able to feed them but we played in  a straight jacket of our own making

our failings were largely down to our insecurity rather than the incisive play of Arsenal - it went from a game which flowed to one that just went one way and we conspired to make that happen - second half we gifted the momentum as we have so frequently when in the lead this season to the opposition -  and then conceded as we inevitably do whether its Arsenal or Oldham or Mansfield -

[jckliew]

Arsenal's defence was there for the taking. We could have scored about 5 goals or more if our
strikers especially Stturridge had taken their chances. eg Hendersen missedthe open goal lob.

Likewise Arse could have scored 5 goals if Djirou and Podolski had taken their chances.

A games between two same level teams. 
Both defences were gash.
Either side could have won it...
Both their goals came from Agger's miss. He failed to clear the header. He didnt managed
to block Walcott's shot. 

[Garcepticon]

I tried to to watch the game with the question of Which team has more room to grow in the next few years? in mind.

Two little things arose from that analysis. The first is that (as mentioned by Timbo) Wilshere is frighteningly good. He was supreme in that game, almost all of his passing, his first touch and his intelligence were way beyond any other player on the pitch. Not only that but his head didn't drop once. That is Arsenals future right there, he could be their captain in a season or two's time and what is more, he looks the sort of iron willed player who would drag them up the league. In the next few years, Arsenal will always be a threat as long as Wilshere maintains fitness and is available to play.

The second thing was something we share with Arsenal - a fragile defensive mindset. One moment always sticks in my mind when I think of Arsenal's defending and that is the League Cup final against Birmingham, the very very funny one when they completely collapsed. We are quite partial to that sort of thing too. How do we change that? Short term, Carragher - because he has played for the vast majority of his career in defensively brilliant sides and as a result he hasn't got the same mindset as say Skrtel, whom has spent the prime of his career in Hodgson/Dalglish sides which have rarely been able to hold out for results. Long term we might need to invest in a player who isn't as fragile as Skrtel is (I wish we had sold him in the summer, but it would have sent out the wrong message.) Rogers could coach this out of Skrtel but I just don't think he has a title winning mentality.

What swings future progression away from mental fragility in our favour is Peters and our approach to transfers (sort of). There are (for the sake of shallow analysis) two solutions, one buy your way out of it - get a senior CB who is used to winning games and will provide assurance for our back four or coach it out of them. Who is more likely to do either? We are. We have shown, as mentioned, a cutting edge as demonstrated by bringing Peters on board. We also buy players which is something Arsenal as a club are inherently reluctant to do - look at their past purchases Monreal, Mertesacker, Santos - they have a history of only buying when the problem is staring them in the face. If we can proactively buy a CB over the age of 26 who has a history of defensive solidity it will move us a step away from the defensive errors which have held us back in all of the big games this season.

[RayPhilAlan]

Suarez spending his time marking Sagna instead of terrorising Mertesacker was a bizarre tactic

Yes indeed. Over the whole game I thought Arsenal were better than us. Partly though, that was because we spent (in my view) far too long down in our own defensive area, and then more often than not gave the ball away. Arsenal's strength was their creative midfield and their forwards. Playing in the part of thefield that included those players was asking for trouble. Arsenal's weakness was their defense. That was where we needed to be. We all saw how easily Henderson went past Mertesacker on the way to his goal - what would have happened if Suarez had been continually up against him rather than Sagna? If we'd had SUarez in the middle, Sturridge against Santos and then Downing (later, Sterling) against Sagna, and got the ball to them a bit faster, I think at the very least we'd have seen a more even game.

Still, a point at the Emirates when you're outplayed isn't too bad, it just could have been better.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Snip

Bang on about Wiltshire, two things made me sit forward last night.

1. His pace, don't remember him being like a whippet over 10 yards, but he made our midfield look slow and cumbersome.
2. If you compare Hendo or Lucas to him it's quite depressing.

Very very very good player.

On a positive note watched the highlights of the under 18s the other night, and jack Dunn reminds me of him a bit.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Vulmea we were two nil up man, it was a near perfect hour of away football.
 
It Reminded me of a Rafa display.

I thought it made Rodgers look like a better coach than he did a week ago. He also closed it down well bringing on Enrique, after the horse had bolted obviously, but that happened in  a five minute spell of pure arsenal of old. Sometimes things like that happen.

[bas5times]

First of all, anyone who is cussing Carra can go fuck themselves.

Would have taken a draw before the game, but to surrender a two goal lead like that? Very very disappointing.

I think what yesterdays game showed was Suarez best position is NOT out wide, at least not if we are gonna set up in a bloody
 4-1-4-1/4411 formation.

He should be a 1 in the system, never in the 4. Sturridge however, has the pace and the athleticism to get up and down the flank. I don't mind Sturridge in the central position if we play 433  but i couldn't help but feel we let Per and Vermalen off the hook last night, big time.

Suarez is more of a headache for those two than Sturridge. I also wish Sterling played instead of Downing, or at least came on for him, he was utterly useless. 

Wilshere showed what he was about in the second half but i also thought Lucas did a very good job keeping Santi quiet for the first hour or so at least.

Also a big mention for Jordan 'The Engine' Henderson - what a shift and what passion for the shirt, that's what it's all about.

[PhaseOfPlay]

First of all, anyone who is cussing Carra can go fuck themselves.

Would have taken a draw before the game, but to surrender a two goal lead like that? Very very disappointing.

I think what yesterdays game showed was Suarez best position is NOT out wide, at least not if we are gonna set up in a bloody
 4-1-4-1/4411 formation.

He should be a 1 in the system, never in the 4. Sturridge however, has the pace and the athleticism to get up and down the flank. I don't mind Sturridge in the central position if we play 433  but i couldn't help but feel we let Per and Vermalen off the hook last night, big time.

Suarez is more of a headache for those two than Sturridge. I also wish Sterling played instead of Downing, or at least came on for him, he was utterly useless. 

Wilshere showed what he was about in the second half but i also thought Lucas did a very good job keeping Santi quiet for the first hour or so at least.

Also a big mention for Jordan 'The Engine' Henderson - what a shift and what passion for the shirt, that's what it's all about.

While you are generally correct about Suarez and Sturridge, I think it bears noting that Sturridge wasn't match-fit enough for that role yesterday, and Suarez has played it before for Ajax. If we were to do the same next season, I daresay it would be Coutinho on the left, Sturridge right and Suarez central. Although I have a feeling that next year we'll be in better shape to take the game to them.

[longball]

Vulmea we were two nil up man, it was a near perfect hour of away football.
 
It Reminded me of a Rafa display.

It reminded me of watching Trapatoni's Ireland side. No real organisation, just men behind the ball.

Still puzzling me today that some think we defended well, considering all the chances we gave up, and the amount of times Arsenal were able to cut us open. We were lucky.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It reminded me of watching Trapatoni's Ireland side. No real organisation, just men behind the ball.

Still puzzling me today that some think we defended well, considering all the chances we gave up, and the amount of times Arsenal were able to cut us open. We were lucky.

Do you think that teams have nil chances in a game? Even when the other team dominates the ball, there is always a chance. The aim is not to eliminate chances - it is to force the other team into chances that are manageable by the defending team (long shots, set-pieces etc). We didn't put on a Catenaccio masterclass, but we were disciplined, largely effective save for 5 mad minutes, and we were dangerous on the counter, even if our chances to counter were infrequent.

It takes a lot to stay disciplined in a shape and defend at the edge of the box. If you do it wrong, you'll be hammered by the same high amount of goals you might have been hammered by pushing out and pressing. We lost two goals in a short space of time - one badly marked free kick, and one positional brain-fart from two defenders against one of the hottest and on-form English attacking talents in the Premier League. For the other 85 minutes, we did a job. We gained a two-goal lead, could have had 3 or 4, and could have won it at the end. If we'd scored at the death, we'd have been hailing the result and manner of play as a sign of "grit"

[keyo]

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.
Decent performance from carragher, and i think he helps us hold our shape when we face a team with a lot of movement, does not go chasing the ball or being dragged wide by a runner

i alos do not buy into blaming him for being too deep, i think that is a red herring....we play deep normally, the problems arise when the midfield is deep and the game becomes compressed in our half....lucas and then gerrard were forced deeper in the second half and we failed to respond to arsenal getting on the ball and playing it round the midfield quickly


Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?
thought he was ok to be honest, but had to defend basically more than get on the ball, certainly did not get too exposed......however, would like to be able to take the fight back to teams who put us under pressure, and that is what johnson does best, having said that we were overloaded by arsenal attacking alot down the left and having extra men over that side with cazorla, wilshere and ramsey all drifting that side more often than the right


The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?
think we ended up too deep, wilshere had a cracker and ran the midfield in the second half, but think we allowed their midfield too much space and allowed them near to the area in the second half which made their interplay more difficult to deal with.....really needed to keep possession better and make them work to win it back...in that i think by compressing into our half we made it easy for them to press us even when we had numbers, we needed to push further forward and engage our forwards with their defenders and make their midfield work back more, basically as we did in the first half when we could see how exposed they could be when the game stretched


Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

not sure taught is right phrase, i think his composure is improving all the time....the lob for instance, as much as it missed, earlier this season he would have passed quickly there, regardless of options....this time he stopped, sized up his options and took - for me - the best one, the fact he missed was not down to composure, merely execution...the goal similarly, where previously he may have looked to pass backwards, he recognised the space and proximity to the area and moved into it smoothly, as scrambled as the goal was it cam from him moving into a dangerous area and putting the opposition on the back foot.....his passing is getting more and more progressive and his movement shows more encouraging signs as it did when he first arrived.....he will continue to improve and i think benefit from the competition for places and the challenge of playing a couple of different roles in the midfield and taking responsibility

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?
i liked having suarez play on the left and sturridge up front, it kept sagna occupied and nullified their threat on the right, whilst giving us more options when we were attacking.....in the second half we were too deep meaning both suarez and sturridge were too deep or left isolated.....but having suarez as a second striker works as he is so adaptable and hard to deal with....i would hope that it is not necessarily a permanent change, more an option, as i think suarez attacking in the middle remains the best option for getting the most out of him, but certainly him coming in from a wide position is a good option

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?
i think we play like a team without a plan outside of plan a, which is keep possession and we will win more often than we lose......we do not change the pace or shape of games regardless of position, and whilst sometimes it is good to show patience and persistence, it also pays sometimes to be proactive in order to control a game.....something i think we only do at home in games where we get a goal lead...our passing game is no longer as obvious as it was earlier in the season, and whilst we need to be able to vary our game, we do need a solid platform to fall back on....and the passing game should be that fall back, until we have this we will not be able to respond to changes in the game or drive changes from our pattern.....

[HarleyKewell7]

Arsenal cut us open at will, they just lacked the final composed effort to make it count. It was a dogged defensive display rather than a defensive masterclass but even at 2-0 up you could sense we were on the brink of wavering - and boy did we waver after their first went in. 

Two defensively poor sides were on display and our biggest downfall was the lack of energy in the second half, particularly upfront. We spent the last part of the game being penned in with Arsenal pressure and seemed to be entirely reliant on a very tired Suarez to do something magical - it was our only outlet in the end.

I think a point at the Emirates is far from the end of the world and even though it felt like a defeat, it obviously wasn't. Really encouraging elements to the performance but also limitations in the mentality of the team. Thought we needed a Hamann / McAllister at 1-0 (vitally so at 2-1) and energy at 2-2.

Really pleased with Henderson's performance in particular though. BIt of a clich้ to say he's growing but I think it's the most befitting description of his recent performances. There will be more impressive runs just as there will be poor decisions like the chip shot but time on the pitch is the only way we'll get to see the best of him.