Topic: Arsenal 2-2 Liverpool - Round Table

[Mr Dilkington]

Hard to be constructive after that.

Played well in the first half, and managed to capitalize on some defensive errors from Arsenal. Second half was total bonkers. We started off tentatively, then against the run of play somehow managed to extend our advantage through sheer persistence from Jordan Henderson.

Then... well we fell apart didn't we? A lapse in concentration from a free kick allows them back in it. We didn't get the chance to solidify things as Walcott scored only minutes later. From there on in it was all Arsenal and we were very fortunate to finish the game all square.

Questions...

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

[Azi]

You know what before all the doom and gloom can i just say i loved that game, it was end to end and for a neutral a brilliant game 

[Cassiel]

At half time I thought we deserved our lead. Luis was great. Henderson was too, though he really needs to work on that final ball because a few times he found himself in a good position and he wasted it. (He solved that second half by putting his head down and going it alone). It was open, but given their back four, particularly after Gibbs went off, I thought we would always have chance to get another. Arguably with a bit more composure we could have been more than one up. I'll have to check back but I'm sure there was one time Luis could have squared for Sturridge for a tap in but went for goal.

After half time we got a second, but then what happened?  We really need to learn to take the sting out of it. To concede at a set piece to them is criminal.

Questions...

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

He also showed Nasri how to take one for the team.


 

[PhaseOfPlay]

Hard to be constructive after that.

Played well in the first half, and managed to capitalize on some defensive errors from Arsenal. Second half was total bonkers. We started off tentatively, then against the run of play somehow managed to extend our advantage through sheer persistence from Jordan Henderson.

Then... well we fell apart didn't we? A lapse in concentration from a free kick allows them back in it. We didn't get the chance to solidify things as Walcott scored only minutes later. From there on in it was all Arsenal and we were very fortunate to finish the game all square.

Questions...

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

Excellent game, a real warrior, as BR might say. But we played to his strengths, and necessarily so. BR asked for leadership, and he got it. Will be a sad day when he retires from football, let alone LFC.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

He is a CB playing in a FB's position, and he doesn't have the mobility for it against the top teams. He's not bad, but he's not a fullback. Johnson back there, Enrique on the other side, and his body and mind get a rest for a while.


The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?


I thought he had a tidy game, invisible for the right reasons, but it's hard to tell from a game like this. I suspect he might be "playing hurt" in his mind - in other words, he fears the injury recurring, so he reserves maybe 5% in games. The closeness of his injuries means it might take him a while to fully get back to 100% ability.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

He lacks composure. If you think about it, he is at 22 where Gerrard was at 19. Over the next two seasons I think we'll see his touch getting more sure, and his vision getting clearer and more expansive. His short passing does need to improve though - not for technique, but for timing and accuracy.


Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?


Yes, very right. He helped Johnson out brilliantly in the absence of Enrique. In fact, his tactical discipline in the first half was immense for a natural attacker. The only way to have played him advanced and central would have been to play a formation we haven't touched all season - one of either 4-3-1-2 or 4-3-2-1 with Sturridge as the forward. As it was, he showed that he understands tactics as well as he plays off-the-cuff. It was a good thing to see. He won't have to do it too much, but if we need to do it, we know he'll be willing and able.


How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

Peters should help - we switched off for the first one I think because we were arguing about the uncontrollables (the free kick) and our focus wasn't there. Same for the first goal against United. We also (and this is an issue for the manager as much as the players) need to be able and allowed to operate a bit more pragmatically for the 5 minutes after we score. If we'd played down and dirty long balls in behind Arsenal's back four for the 5 minutes after Henderson scored, we might have spoiled their momentum and even gained a 3rd goal. BR once stated that he didn't want players smashing it down the pitch as it only comes back at you again - but when you set up defensively as well as we did today for 60 minutes, then you are ready for the onslaught and it is easier to bear. From the other team's point of view, they build their possession, get into a good area, and then have to run back to collect it all over again because the defending team just knocked it over your heads. It has two effects - their midfield dropping to collect off the defence blunts their attack; or, they don't want to lose position, so they just knock it back down field in similar fashion, at which point you've made them play your game, and they are doing something unfamiliar to them and so their rhythm is changed completely.

Overall, save for 5 minutes where they scored 2, we did a very decent tactical job. That we were 2-0 up in the first place despite having less possession, is down to the clear tactical flexibility of BR, and the hard work and discipline of the players. I'm sure he would have wanted to play a more open game, but Arsenal's movement is lethal and fast, and we didn't have the bodies to cope with that today if we wanted to go toe-to-toe with them, despite what a lot of people might think. For me, it was a positive sign for the future. I can see us playing in a final that way, only then we'll have more mobile players, a few more goalscorers, and a greater mental doggedness.

[Crosby Nick]

You have a point on Henderson although think it's a little harsh to raise it tonight when he was very good. He's a funny one, obviously not a playmaker as such but he makes a very decent fist of that position. Concentrating on his strengths I thought his first touch and close control and little 5 yard passes were excellent. Aligned to hi good movement he was a good outlet for us. Great to see him have the confidence to go himself for the goal too and now that he knows he has the pace and strength to beat defenders I think we'll see more of it.

Where he can struggle in that position is when he has a bit more time and space I think. A few times it was crying out for himto switch it to Downing out wide and instead he kept it simple (no bad things but you feel Gerrard in that position would play a few more 'killer' balls.

I like him there at the moment though. He links well with Suarez and I'd definitely start him at City too.

[Corkboy]

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

Yes, but I thought MOTM was a stretch. He did well but was visibly the deepest defender on several occasions, which didn't help with...

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

He has had a decent run but was at sea now and again tonight. Arsenal have good attackers, though and he wasn't at fault for either goal. Having said that, Johnson hasn't been exactly reassuring under pressure recently. After getting outjumped by a smaller man against Oldham, he did it again with Walcott just before their second, with credit to Walcott for getting a good run on him.

Our problems all came down our left side in the second half, which is presumably why Enrique was brought on. First half, Suarez was everywhere, often too deep for our own good, but he dropped off a bit after the break. Walcott's goal came because he beat Suarez to a header out wide and Luis let him off and started backing up the pitch, banking on us winning it back. However, that left us two v three and Walcott had enough space to work it off his mates and finish well.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

Hmm. I was screaming at him for the first half. Ramsey is not a defensive mid and he was there for the taking. Three times, Henderson got possession in dangerous areas with the Arsenal back four exposed, and he fluffed it each time. He is invaluable off the ball but sometimes wasteful on it. For his goal, he gets an A for effort and sheer bloodymindedness but the Arsenal back four must have had Steve Bould's cranium becoming ever more veined and visible. It was a moment to replay in jerky black and white with a jaunty piano accompaniment. First, Mertesacker graciously showed our Jordan the inside right berth and ushered him through, and then when his shot was weak and bobbly, Santos kindly and accurately returned it to him, all while their keeper skittered around like a newborn foal.

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

Play him anywhere across the front three and we're laughing, but if you're asking him to put in a shift, like we did tonight, you have to allow for the fact that he is not a defensive minded player. Too often, he was asked to cover his full back, and that's not really his forte. Still probably our best player, though, and provided the moment of the game with his outside of the right boot, on the fly, inch perfect pearler pass for Sturridge, who couldn't adorn it with a finish.

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

He is not the force he was before his injury, not quite the same snap, but he is getting there. Also, I think he is learning the Rodgers game as we go along, often occupying a Busquets, between the two centre halves position when in possession. There were some moments when he was up at the Arsenal back four, I think Rodgers likes that sort of defence where players boing out from their defensive line to press and harry. He was unlucky to give away a couple of frees in the second half that weren't frees, too.

The Arsenal set up had Ramsey at the base of a three with Wilshere and Cazorla, all superb passers and movers, so it was understandable that we might have trouble dominating possession but when we got the ball in the first half, they looked like they would rather be anywhere else.

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

I thought we should have gone in two or three up, but the Henderson goal was a bonus in a half where we suffered. That game was never ours for the closing, I don't think you can ever say that against a good Arsenal side at two up, but certainly not a lucky two up. Wilshere and Cazorla are gems of players, while Giroud and Walcott are in very good form, with the former beating Agger all ends up for their first.

[Hinesy]

Questions...

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

It was nice and yet I feared initially for him. Arsenal usually play at such a high pace that his speed these days would be shown up, but the way he marshalled the defence meant he wasn't trying to run back to tackle, rather he was there in the right place. I still think he should've played v Oldham and Skrtel v Arsenal but hats off, he had a great game.
I also think Agger and Reina feel better with him there, like knowing you've got someone who does what they do brilliantly and you trust them.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

I think he's already shown composure and 'wisdom' in large amounts but I think he was probably affected by the Oldham game more than a lot of older players. Young'un's need to stop carrying the recent past around with them. Probably also heavy legged after playing on that pitch.

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

I think with Arsenal's triangular fast passing and constant moving when they do get going will always make life difficult for a 3 man back midfield, especially when Gerrard uses his licence to go a roaming and Henderson isn't best used in that position. I think it was tricky playing that 3 there v Arsenal.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

It must be hard being told you're not really wanted and press saying you're not what we thought you were and fans grumbling like a hungry belly about you. I think he will find his feet more and more BUT I'm not entirely sure that he has clearly been told what his role is, or had his position clearly defined. He kind of plays in the middle but not really but sometimes back sometimes forward but does he etc etc. He needs certainty right now and consistency. Not interchanging him with possibly Allen or Shelvey or not...

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

I was surprised to see him there but blimey he did well and that ball to Sturridge was a joy to behold. He worked hard and earned respect but I wouldn't want to see him there forever. We should use a 4-4-2 with him, or 3-5-2. He's not a lone striker and frankly wasted out there on the side. But he was lovely to watch there.

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

It doesn't really worry me, the 2-2 v Man City early this year was due to a shit mistake, the loss to Oldham was due partly to a shit mistake, we bossed Arsenal at ours and still lost, yet have beaten teams and beaten them properly, so pick a game any game and I doubt its frequently to do with holding out. Tonight was a case of sitting too deep too early, took me back to Houllier's worst days, and we should've taken the game to Arsenal but I'm not sure the team knew what to do. 2 up at the Emirates is a rare thing..

[Vulmea]

I enjoyed the first half - we tried and that was all I wanted to see - we tried and we exposed them as being there for the taking - they were dreadful at the back - utterly dreadful.

Then I thought BR got it wrong second half from the off - we came  out and just gifted them an extra 20 yards - that wasn't Carra dragging the defence back or Arsenal pushing us back, we deliberately sat back. Its why we dont win games, we dont believe in ourselves enough. If the manager and players dont believe they can win, let alone should win we've got a big problem. We've come out too often 2nd half with a poor mentality.

Our second goal was against the run of play and fortuitous - Henderson was brilliant but we had a slice of luck there. Then the game was crying out for us to put pressure on their back line, Santos was on and we didn't target him, he is a liability as is Mertesacker(If Henderson can shimmy past him jeez where was Luis?), the crowd were ripe for turning all it needed was a bit of encouragement and we just sat there. 4th place, a genuine challenge but no - we settled for mediocrity.

the one thing Arsenal can do is attack - their midfield is full of clever attacking players and we let them do their stuff - their goals were inevitable - the only thing which surprised me was they didn't win - BR's introduction of Enrique helped but if anyone thinks we gave a defensive masterclass they are fooling themselves. Arsenal are not the side of a couple of years back but we treated them like they were.

2nd half we couldnt pass the  ball 10 yards without giving it away which encouraged them more and more - keeping the ball under pressure is what our 'style'  is supposed to be all about but it came apart under the press and we simply played park the bus - I think thats more down to an underdog mentality than one befitting winners -  BR needs to learn how to win from the front, he needs to learn how to read the momentum of a game or we'll be making excuses for the next 3 years.

Part of the problem was evident first half - we tried to keep the ball but again and again merely played a player into trouble - we'd create space well but then inexplicably pass back into trouble rather than move forward - it was perplexing but Arsenals incompetence and some great forward play meant it didn't matter - but I think it did drain our confidence in how we needed to play.

One other issue, why when Suarez could barely stand was he still on the pitch after 70 minutes? He'd run himself into the floor first half, he was clearly shot and we didn't sub him? We had no outball and we didn't sub him? This made sense why? Wasn't the game set up for Sterling to use his pace  if all we were doing is lumping it or Borini to just run around like a dervish or well anything else?

Lucas is rusty, Henderson is learning ( I dont think he knows how good he is), Wisdom didn't look anymore lost than usual, positionally he isn't great but he's getting better.

Suarez playing left mid meant his legs went, it was a waste, that talent should have been demolishing Mertesacker not covering Sagna.

Carra has played well all season, he still makes errors but thankfully they are being treated like everybody else's rather than as signposts to the glue factory, the scapegoating and bias was despicable.

But our inability to close out a game... well that is a major concern for me. United are the obvious marker they are I believe technically speaking crap (except up front)  but they believe they should win and they do more than not.

The players tried though, they didn't fold, there is something to build on there - and BR well for me he needs to up his game, realise he's managing LFC and has some world class talent at his disposal and take on the mantle of winners.

[royhendo]

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

We've regressed on this one. Carragher is still Carragher, but Oldham and Villa fresh in our minds, the qualities he brings are seen as indispensible. That's fine - he'll never lack commitment - but it can affect the overall demeanour of the side. I'm not sure about tidy in possession at all. He played easy balls easily, but we had to chip a lot forward as a result of his being there... which was in large part why we set up the way we did, no? I'm wary of the notion of an Indian summer for Carragher.


Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

See above mate. The reason Wisdom looked a little lost was that his habitual inside ball wasn't quite as easy to play last night as he's become accustomed to. That's the by-product of starting Carragher - we drop that little bit deeper, which in itself invites pressure, and the players immediately around him have fewer options. When pressed, that can meke players look a little lost.


The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

Again, it's glass half empty/half full isn't it? Prominent Arsenal bloggers are complaining at the side's inability to pass in the first half, and at their inability to cope with our pressure. Meanwhile, we could have been 3-0 up at half time - that was in large part down to the midfield, wasn't it? The emphasis changed both because we withdrew into our shells a little, and given that withdrawal, that Wilshere and Cazorla started playing the way they can. Lucas did well first half. He's gradually getting back to his level for me. But we're on our starters blocks to criticise the players just now. Rarely has our midfield imposed itself on Arsenal.


Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

It's true, but yeah, it is harsh. He shows flashes of amazing quality and he's intelligent in some aspects, but there are gaps. If he was to fill those gaps he'd have everything, and players like that cost £25-30m odd, so it's worth waiting for, if it eventually comes.


Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

I really like that partnership and the way Henderson got beyond them at times. It's natural. I don't think it matters where Suarez is as long as we can get him on the ball. He put in a shift, didn't he? Sturridge faded and with Walcott asserting himself, it was wise bolstering that flank I thought.


How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

It'll come with belief. Remember the Ayesteran interview about having to believe you can do it before you actually do? The same applies to this team now.

Anyway ta - I thought we did well and was disappointed with the set piece goal. The 2nd was an Arsenal goal - they're hard to stop when they play that way - you have to push out further from goal to make them easier to deal with.

But on balance, a draw was probably fair over the piece. Thought we would nick it at the end. Completely agree with Azi - it was a great game of football.

[royhendo]

PS - the handball was a penalty, and Giroud's dive hasn't seen a single column inch (but we know how that works).

[Gnurglan]

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

Did well. Was disappointed we let in a goal from another set piece, but that seems to be happening whoever we play at the back.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

I'd play Enrique and Johnson. Wisdom has already played a lot of games. Generally, he's done well. We need to be careful though, so we don't overplay him like we have with Sterling. He's done well, it's something to build on. No worries. But it's time to go with Johnson.

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

Looks a little rusty to me, but I believe we're better defensively with him and I like how he tries to play the ball forward.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

Henderson deserves praise for his goal and his assist. But I was also quite annoyed with his misplaced passes when we could have caused real threats. It's also the part of his game, where I think I see him receive the ball with his back to the goal every time. It's like we have made a good pass forward and Henderson ensures the ball ends up where it came from. I'm probably too harsh on him here, but it's something I've noticed and now I see it all the time and get annoyed with it.

He has improved and 1+1 is something to be proud of, but every time I think of Henderson, I see him as this odd man out in midfield. He's there, he does well, he improves, but I'd want a different player in the more advanced CM role and I'm not sure where I want us to use him, where I see a role for him in the future.

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

Wrong to play him on the left. We lose so much if he ends up deep. It's not just about attacking edge. Let's make sure he has the ball in the attacking half, not our half.

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?

Yesterday I thought we looked alright until they scored. And then they got the other one straight after. That's hard to counter. Rodgers couldn't even react and make a sub before they were even. After the second goal, we managed to tighten things up, which was good to see. Expected us to lose, but I think we showed character and that was good to see.

If we look at the bigger picture, I believe we're still having problems defending, as a team. Everywhere. We need to start addressing it somewhere. Pressing? Players available? Formation?

I believe it goes back to the basics. What's our starting platform? Which is our core side? What are we looking for and how do we fit players in? I can't even say how we're planning to use Allen, Borini, Sturridge, Coutinho, Lucas, Gerrard and Suarez together. Things don't get much easier when we add Sterling, Downing, Suso, Shelvey and Henderson to the mix. I miss a structure that I can understand or spot with ease. Without it, I don't know what we're looking for. Hopefully things will clear up, but that is something I expected I'd be able to see by now and it worries me that I can't.

My impression is we're failing with our pressing game, our entire focus is on what to do when we have the ball. That we have problems in defence is something to deal with later.

[Aristotle]

Questions...

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

He was excellent in the first half. The second half though showed why he's finding himself more and more on the bench, and with good reason. Carragher on his day was one of the finest CBs in Europe, in a side that had an Alonso, Hamann, Mascherano or Sissoko he was perfect. He was a brick wall that required no running and no passing. But now without them he always feels, for the lack of a more finesse word, awkward. There was one particular incident last night where he tried his trademark stop-with-studs technique and literally missed the ball. It was a no-mark incident but in the context of 16 years as a professional footballer it felt a bit awkward to look at.
For all the good that Carragher did in the first half, it turned into a weakness in the 2nd half and one that Arsenal fully exploited. In the first half Carragher did his best organizational job. Doing such a good job they could've played blindfolded. However in the 2nd half we were reminded of what the downside of that is. Carragher got tired (so did Lucas and Gerrard - which did nothing to help the situation). A fully fit Carragher was always one to revert to the safety of the penalty box, a mid 30's tiring Carragher digs in there like a WWI brigadier general. Fearing he'll be turned for pace he retreats into his safety net of the penalty box. It happens, it's a natural instinct for a defender to revert to a position where he feels more comfortable defending. But the problem then becomes that Carragher's natural instinct for organization works against us. Agger is a wonderful footballer, but he is a footballer first and a defender secondly. Being stifled by being turned into a no mark in the trenches is like handing Vassili Zaitsev a bayonett. Wisdom suffered as well because as others have pointed out, he is a CB playing in the fullback position. Being dragged into his own penalty box confused him and I lost count of the number of times where he was inside the box preparing to clear the cross when his job was supposed to be to close down Podolski and prevent it coming in the first half. Glen Johnson is in a way the same as Agger. He's a good defender, better than given credit for, but he is a footballer first and a defender second.
Because as positive as Carragher's impact was in the first half, where he commanded his troops excellently. In the second half he reverted to form and he forced the other 3 to play a game that suits none of them. I know this might sound like singling Carragher out for criticism but you can't have your cake and eat it. If he's praised for organizing the defence when he keeps a clean sheet. Then by default it must also be down to him when we fail to organize and concede goals as a result of it.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

I actually think that Wisdom could cope better with City than Arsenal, but I also think that after the cup and a midweek game, the young man might need a rest. Enrique isn't fully match fit so it could be, and most likely will be, that one will start and the other comes on for him. I thought he did rather well againt Arsenal if I'm honest but as stated above he looked lost when Carra started trench warfare and drifted inside instead of staying wide. He went for comfort, because let's face it no young player will risk exposing Carragher when he can avoid it.

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

Lucas got tired after the hour mark. He's not played too much and he's still some way off optimal condition. Gerrard had a very commanding presence in midfield but he tired as the game went on and he was dragged a bit from being too deep, too advanced and caught off guard at both ends. I think that had the moment of passage before Walcott's goal come after 20 minutes Gerrard would've cleared the ball. He was half going on the counter, half closing down and was caught out lagging behind when the ball played through. We should've done better collectively, but I saw it as a clear sign that he, like the rest of the squad had tired very quickly around the hour mark.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

It can. I think he's the best that has happened to Gerrard's form in terms of doing his legwork for him. Gerrard doe his Pirlo-lite and Henderson provides the Marchisio/Vidal style of running twice a much to cover for the aging legs of the brain of the team. However he doesn't have their warrior hearts. There were a few chances where he had time and space to run into but he passed the ball to Gerrard because it's what one should do in a 50/50 situation. Gerrard can work wonders but he can also slow things down when he's off. Henderson proved with his goal that he can be a very potent force with sheer determination and resilience. But I don' tthink he will come out of Gerrard's shadow until Gerrard's gone. No whether that's a good or a bad thing I dare not say.

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

Well that's a bit tricky. Suarez is pretty excellent everywhere he goes but he's too amazing for his own good. On the one hand I feel great pride when I watch him chase down an opposition player, clear the ball near the corner flag and then run like a man possessed and battle for the header from his own damn clearance. However I still feel that Suarez away from goal is always an optimal solution for the other team and although his work rate and team ethic are second to none. I think that he needs a more stable midfield behind him before we can start shifting him away from goal.

How concerning is our inability to close out a game, and how can it be solved?
Well that's the thing that Rodger is trying to with his death by football isn't it? To kill games by keeping the ball. It was impossible defending the way we did and with Ramsey, Jack "handbags at the ready" Wilshere and Cazorla passing the ball away from our exhausted midfielders.

To stop it? I don't know really. First of all I'd say stop dropping deep after EVERY. SINGLE. GOAL.

When you think about it. It's the infamous troll science problem.

Step 1: Aquire playing style
Step 2: Choose aweome player to use playing style
Step 3:
Step 4: Profit

[Hinesy]

For those wishing to post from now on: Can you also discuss the answers above now please, rather than all just answering the OP's questions, as we want it to be a debate too.
Thanks

[Vulmea]

People honestly believe Carragher dragged us back twenty yards at the very start of the 2nd half because he was tired? That if we were 20 yards from where BR wanted us to be he may not of actually told us to shift?

We came out after half time with a game plan to defend deep - european away style deep,  lets keep what we've got. I dont think that decison was Carraghers. I hope not anyway. It wasn't Carraghers legs that determined it or Lucas's lungs or Gerrards 32 year old limbs. It was a lack of belief in our ability to outplay Arsenal, a lack of belief in our ability to win a game even when one nil up and playing a side that simply could not defend. This had to be the worst Arsenal side we've faced for a decade and more and we did not back ourselves to beat them, we settled to try and keep a win but a draw would be ok.

Now maybe BR knows our mentality, you have to hope so, maybe he saw how frail we looked in possession, maybe he thought our legs are going to go, maybe he thought we'll bottle this, maybe he looked at the pro's and cons and said , you know what we need to defend deep to have any chance of getting a result because I dont fancy us to keep them out - and lo and behold we got the draw we'd have settled for at kick off - but its not what I'd want to see - I'd want to see him say - you know what Arsenal are here for the taking tonight, we aint playing Arsenal circa 2004 or even 2011, actually our defence is better than theirs and our attack is better than theirs and our midfield is roughly the same so we'll go for the win. Lets see what a win does for our psyche, lets see what showing I believe in them does........

[Mr Dilkington]

I concur Vulmea. It's a stretch to say we dropped deep because of Carra IMO.

Arsenal were rampant, and we were guilty of it as a team.

[Timbo's Goals]

Buggered if I'm going to write a new one after the one I put in the post match thread.

 

I guess my main point in that original thread post regarding the game - seeing as it is intended to be about the game - is the pivotal impact that Wilshire had on the encounter. For some reason this seemed to pass by some of those in that post match thread not unlike the manner in which Wishire himself passed by our midfield.

Not surprising there are so many different takes on the game. After all, it was one of those difficult games to sum up that come along every so often. But bleedinell. Some of the downbeat interpretations on here [that's the post match thread btw not this round table one] are so far off any real sense of perspective as to truly make you ponder just what does constitute our fan base these days.

First off, it was a superb game of football. Gripping from start to finish. Neutrals could not have asked for much more.

And dyed in the wool fans like most of us on here?

Well, I guess both Liverpool and Arsenal fans alike will be feeling a mite disappointed they never got all three points. Us because we had the two nil lead which slipped away and them because once they equalized they must have thought they’d go on to win in a canter.

As it is, the game was that good it’s fully deserving of everyone’s efforts on here to try and encapsulate what took place. No matter how skewed some of the takes. You don’t often get games as riveting where the result really could have gone either way.

In the end I’d say a draw was probably fair to both sides.

Anyroad, I’ll go straight into the main thing from the game which hit me like a fuckin sledgehammer. And that is what a fuckin player that Wilshere has become. Take him out of the equation and Arsenal are a different far lesser side. Possibly as much as 25% less effective. He effortlessly dominates their play. And the game itself.

Their entire game pivots around him to a quite ridiculous yet entirely understandable extent. He has this Xavi/Iniesta ability to hold the ball with seemingly no risk of being dispossessed. Consequently, all their play seams through him. The others are essentially bit parts to his baton waving. If anything he runs forward with the thing glued to his feet better than the two Spaniards.

Already for me he's up with the very finest British midfield players of that sort that I've ever seen. Can't think of one better off the top of my head. You might say Gazza but he never dominated the middle in that way. And Stevie is a different sort entirely. Sure those pair had/have goals oozing from them but never did they dominate like Wilshere. Our own Graeme Souness is probably nearest. Yet he had his own distinctive laconic and hardman style. He never ran and probed like Wilshere.

Try as hard as Lucas and Gerrard and Henderson did last night they could never get near him and yet he pinched the ball off each of our three every time he made the effort to do so. He must have an incredible rare ability to inject sudden electric pace and foot reaction into his play. Poor old Lucas in particular was shown up as being off the pace – understandable to an extent, of course, given his injuries. The Lucas of pre-Chelsea last year might have given Wilshere a challenge but last night - not a prayer.

So given Wilshere's complete dominance in that central area the fact we still managed to do so well stands as a real testament to the team and particularly I guess to those players who were marginalised by Wilshere's play. By never once giving up and concentrating on the positives they could bring to the play they really impressed me. Henderson in particular with his tireless running and covering and Terry Mac like runs off the ball. And his determination for the goal of course. A great Liverpool moment that. And Gerrard too until he visibly tired. I guess Lucas too for not giving up the ghost despite the fruitlessness of much of his effort in chasing shadows.

Plaudits also to those not marginalised by Wilshere's performance. I'm thinking of the entire back four - and Pepe, too, who final goal and one sliced clearance apart had a terrific game  - who were all absolutely superb against the continued onslaught from the Wilshere promptings and Arsenal movement up front. And then the front three – two of whom spent much of their time dropping back to bolster the midfield/defence against the onslaught – but still did their stuff on the counter and on those occasions when we did manage to retain possession.

Many are rightly disappointed we didn’t keep the lead. And when you point to some of our other unconverted goalscoring opportunities perhaps the annoyance of some is understandable to an extent. Maybe just viewing it that way, it was 2 points dropped. Yet it’s one thing keeping a two goal lead in theory against such relentless attacking from an excellent home side on such a big pitch. It’s another actually managing to do it.

When you think of the overall play there’s surely no way anybody watching that game thought Arsenal were going to come off that pitch without at least a couple of goals to show for their efforts. Arsenal were chomping at the bit from the very start. Their big lanky centre half apart, they all seemed determined as fuck to get those three points and scarcely ever let up the pace. It became especially noticeable after Henderson scored.  At times their attacking play was as scintillating as it’s ever been.

Did I read someone saying it’s the worst Arsenal side ever? Bollocks. Their defensive organisation does have some problems but overall this is a decent side. No question.

It meant we needed to be at full tilt ourselves to stand up to it. And thank god we were for the most part. The fact they breached us was more down to their play than our shortcomings. On another day we might have gotten away without conceding. Then again we might have conceded four or five such was the quality of some of their approach play.

So all in all I think we have to be happy with getting a result down there. I think when the management and team weigh everything up they’ll draw huge encouragement for the future from the performance and what we came out of it with. I can’t see many teams standing up to that sort of Wilshere inspired play. Him pulling the strings will be a real test for any side and likely far too much for all but the very stoutest resistance.

Moving on to Sunday I actually fancy us more to snatch a win at City than I would if we had to face Arsenal again down there. I’m pretty sure we’ll have more of the ball to develop our own game and our backline won’t be under the same sort of concerted pressure. City have some killer finishers but if we can dictate the play a bit more than we did last night the 3 points are by no means beyond this team. That’s not a prediction btw. 

[Rohit]

I concur Vulmea. It's a stretch to say we dropped deep because of Carra IMO.

Arsenal were rampant, and we were guilty of it as a team.

They were rampant but the tactical switch to push wilshere onto lucas along with Cazorla helped them massively to gain momentum. This where if we had a natural ten or even steven Gerrard occupying the space behind their midfield they would have done so with less effect for me. Hendo was brilliant but he needs to develop more of killer extinct to play further up the pitch but then especially when he has space in front of him. None of Arsenals midfielders are able to cope with a play that poses a real threat between the lines. We saw Ferguson sit Rooney on Arteta the whole game and Arsenals midfield couldn't impose itself. Hell we did ourselves in the second half at old trafford when we had Suarez sitting in the pocket of space behind Carrick and Cleverly.

But how would have Brendan made that change, taking of a midfielder while already tiring? Or Push Gerrard up but knowing he didn't have the energy to consistently press that high up?

[Eeyore]

People honestly believe Carragher dragged us back twenty yards at the very start of the 2nd half because he was tired? That if we were 20 yards from where BR wanted us to be he may not of actually told us to shift?

We came out after half time with a game plan to defend deep - european away style deep,  lets keep what we've got. I dont think that decison was Carraghers. I hope not anyway. It wasn't Carraghers legs that determined it or Lucas's lungs or Gerrards 32 year old limbs. It was a lack of belief in our ability to outplay Arsenal, a lack of belief in our ability to win a game even when one nil up and playing a side that simply could not defend. This had to be the worst Arsenal side we've faced for a decade and more and we did not back ourselves to beat them, we settled to try and keep a win but a draw would be ok.

Now maybe BR knows our mentality, you have to hope so, maybe he saw how frail we looked in possession, maybe he thought our legs are going to go, maybe he thought we'll bottle this, maybe he looked at the pro's and cons and said , you know what we need to defend deep to have any chance of getting a result because I dont fancy us to keep them out - and lo and behold we got the draw we'd have settled for at kick off - but its not what I'd want to see - I'd want to see him say - you know what Arsenal are here for the taking tonight, we aint playing Arsenal circa 2004 or even 2011, actually our defence is better than theirs and our attack is better than theirs and our midfield is roughly the same so we'll go for the win. Lets see what a win does for our psyche, lets see what showing I believe in them does........

I think you are spot we have a massive inferiority complex against the top sides, in the twenty two games we have played in the League against the other sides in the League Liverpool and Arsenal have exactly the same number of points 34. As you say this is probably the worst Arsenal side since Rioch's days but we threw our belief and our beliefs out of the window.

It was the same at United, Chelsea and Spurs we started the game at a psychological disadvantage and sat off and allowed them to dictate. The one thing you cannot give good players is time on the ball. Wilshire was allowed to pick the ball up and run at us at will. We should of been in his face and suffocating him and looking to physically dominate Arsenal the way other sides do.

The problem is that we lack pace and power through the spine of the team and instead of rectifying that we have brought in another couple of lightweight between the lines players. We were terrified of the pace of Walcot and we couldn't cope with Giroud and Mertesacker aerially, that needs sorting out or we will just continue to be flat track bullies who can put away the also rans but cannot cope with teams with a bit about them.

[Black Bull Nova]

I think you are spot we have a massive inferiority complex against the top sides, in the twenty two games we have played in the League against the other sides in the League Liverpool and Arsenal have exactly the same number of points 34.

There was a point in this match when it finally seemed we had re-joined those at the top table. Losing this and the City game would have confirmed us as a very good mid-table team as opposed to a weaker member of the elite.

At that point in the game when it finally appeared that we were changing categories, the jury decided to get up en masse and leave the room, leaving the City game as possibly not that one which confirms our status (unless we get hammered)

[Kop10]

Overall, save for 5 minutes where they scored 2, we did a very decent tactical job. That we were 2-0 up in the first place despite having less possession, is down to the clear tactical flexibility of BR, and the hard work and discipline of the players. I'm sure he would have wanted to play a more open game, but Arsenal's movement is lethal and fast, and we didn't have the bodies to cope with that today if we wanted to go toe-to-toe with them, despite what a lot of people might think

This is all well and good as long as we extend the same generosity to every manager and team that park the bus against us and pounce on our mistakes in the same manner.  So Paul Dickov, Martin O'neill, Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Lambert, take a bow sirs. Possession is overrated, tactical geniuses one and all. 

[Anywhichwayicant]

Need to persevere with Wisdom. No worse than Johnson last night, so lets not run around screaming.

[Red_Mist]

Positives

- Good first half performance and derserved the lead at HT.
- Overall it was a great game of football and good to see us compete against a decent Arsenal side on home turf.
- Probably would've taken a point before the match.
- Carragher proved some of his doubters wrong.
- Hendo's perserverance for his goal and sheer delight when he slid it in; couldn't help but feel delighted for the lad.
- Glen Johnson - still world class 

Negatives

- We looked fragile. That's the only word for it. Two-nil up and yet looked like losing the game for much of the second half.
- Arsenal had their tails up in that spell, but they were helped so much by us gifting them possession and leaving huge gaps in midfield. Couldn't work out what had gone wrong from the first half. Nagging feeling it was it all about Arsenal and how well (or badly) they were playing.
- We don't seem to have learnt much from Oldham. Very static on crosses, letting them get a run at the ball.
- It's going to take Lucas Leiva a good while yet to get back to his pre-injury level.

Overall, another step on the road. A young team learning all the time. That most of us were a bit gutted in the end to just get one point from the game says a lot for how far we've come.

[Eeyore]

There was a point in this match when it finally seemed we had re-joined those at the top table. Losing this and the City game would have confirmed us as a very good mid-table team as opposed to a weaker member of the elite.

At that point in the game when it finally appeared that we were changing categories, the jury decided to get up en masse and leave the room, leaving the City game as possibly not that one which confirms our status (unless we get hammered)

It's bizarre last season we knocked United and City out of the Cups beat Chelsea three times and won at the Emirates so we have no reason to fear the top sides, yet this season especially away from home we have given them way too much respect early on in games.

[Corkboy]

Anyroad, I’ll go straight into the main thing from the game which hit me like a fuckin sledgehammer. And that is what a fuckin player that Wilshere has become. Take him out of the equation and Arsenal are a different far lesser side. Possibly as much as 25% less effective. He effortlessly dominates their play. And the game itself.

Their entire game pivots around him to a quite ridiculous yet entirely understandable extent. He has this Xavi/Iniesta ability to hold the ball with seemingly no risk of being dispossessed. Consequently, all their play seams through him. The others are essentially bit parts to his baton waving. If anything he runs forward with the thing glued to his feet better than the two Spaniards.

Already for me he's up with the very finest British midfield players of that sort that I've ever seen. Can't think of one better off the top of my head. You might say Gazza but he never dominated the middle in that way. And Stevie is a different sort entirely. Sure those pair had/have goals oozing from them but never did they dominate like Wilshere. Our own Graeme Souness is probably nearest. Yet he had his own distinctive laconic and hardman style. He never ran and probed like Wilshere.

Try as hard as Lucas and Gerrard and Henderson did last night they could never get near him and yet he pinched the ball off each of our three every time he made the effort to do so. He must have an incredible rare ability to inject sudden electric pace and foot reaction into his play. Poor old Lucas in particular was shown up as being off the pace – understandable to an extent, of course, given his injuries. The Lucas of pre-Chelsea last year might have given Wilshere a challenge but last night - not a prayer.

So given Wilshere's complete dominance in that central area...

I agree, generally, but I think you're going a mite over the top. Wilshere is a gem, as I said above, but if you think we couldn't get the ball off him, you were watching a different game, especially in the first half. Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to recall Wilshere getting robbed several times by us, even in the second half. And again, you're right, he does have brilliant "first five yards" pace but don't forget his dead ball delivery either. His free for the Giroud goal was perfect. Having said that, I was thinking during the game that Cazorla is a mighty man for a corner, every one straight into the mixer at pace.

Wilshere is a real talent, buckets of potential, but Souness? Not having that.

[Mr Dilkington]

Forgot to say it in my OP, but worth adding now (having seen Corkboy's post there) - how good is Jack Wilshere?

Surely the finest midfield talent England have produced since Gerrard?

[CHOPPER]

Gerrards scouse, not English. Alright, Britishperson.

[PhaseOfPlay]

This is all well and good as long as we extend the same generosity to every manager and team that park the bus against us and pounce on our mistakes in the same manner.  So Paul Dickov, Martin O'neill, Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Lambert, take a bow sirs. Possession is overrated, tactical geniuses one and all. 

Speak for yourself. I'm always generous towards any coach or manager. I'm quite effusive in my praise for Pulis, even if I don't always like his style of football.

My point was that BR has been accused of tactical INflexibility in the past, and yesterday's game showed yet another side of his thinking. My point is also that he had a plan, and players stuck to their tasks. That plan brought us 2-0 up within 60 minutes, could have been more, and we could have stole it at the death.

[Mr Dilkington]

Forgot to say it in my OP, but worth adding now (having seen Corkboy's post there) - how good is Jack Wilshere?

Surely the finest midfield talent England have produced since Gerrard?

Hey, that's over the line Chops! 

[stevied]

I dont want to see Luis wide left again, ok he played fine but it takes a big part of our forward threat away, much prefer to see him as the main man up top with Danny buzzing round him.
Wisdom is a young talent that needs to be nursed through a couple of more seasons he will be a bull of a player then i can see him ending up in the middle of the back four.
Yes we dropped deep but i think we have to give the opposition a bit of credit for that rather than slagging our back 4 off, when they get on a roll not many teams can defend against it
Looking forward to Sunday already

[royhendo]

People honestly believe Carragher dragged us back twenty yards at the very start of the 2nd half because he was tired? That if we were 20 yards from where BR wanted us to be he may not of actually told us to shift?

We came out after half time with a game plan to defend deep - european away style deep,  lets keep what we've got. I dont think that decison was Carraghers. I hope not anyway. It wasn't Carraghers legs that determined it or Lucas's lungs or Gerrards 32 year old limbs. It was a lack of belief in our ability to outplay Arsenal, a lack of belief in our ability to win a game even when one nil up and playing a side that simply could not defend. This had to be the worst Arsenal side we've faced for a decade and more and we did not back ourselves to beat them, we settled to try and keep a win but a draw would be ok.

Now maybe BR knows our mentality, you have to hope so, maybe he saw how frail we looked in possession, maybe he thought our legs are going to go, maybe he thought we'll bottle this, maybe he looked at the pro's and cons and said , you know what we need to defend deep to have any chance of getting a result because I dont fancy us to keep them out - and lo and behold we got the draw we'd have settled for at kick off - but its not what I'd want to see - I'd want to see him say - you know what Arsenal are here for the taking tonight, we aint playing Arsenal circa 2004 or even 2011, actually our defence is better than theirs and our attack is better than theirs and our midfield is roughly the same so we'll go for the win. Lets see what a win does for our psyche, lets see what showing I believe in them does........

Who has alleged the decision was Carragher's Vulmea? I don't think you blame him for the team selection or set up, but it's a debate, isn't it?

Carragher in a deep set up is a chicken and egg thing. You yourself tend to say a side should set up based on the players available, not the other way round. The side was deeper last night against a side with burning pace up front, and with Carragher in the back line. Carragher's great in that deeper set up - the Carling Cup semi 1st leg last season was a great example - we were being pushed deeper and when he came on, we looked far more comfortable for his being there. Sitting deeper isn't an issue in itself. But if people feel Wisdom looked lost and tentative, it's as much as symptom of a set up (and a player alongside him) he's uncomfortable with as Carragher doing well was of a set up he is comfortable with. We extend the benefit of that doubt to Carragher, but not to Wisdom.

It's the debate we've been inching towards in the Systems threads - players, systems, and the effect they can have on each other. I personally think Carragher's being there made the passing in that area (Wisdom, Downing, Lucas, Henderson) that bit more laboured and risky. Wisdom suffered most but he wasn't alone. On the other side it was less of a problem wasn't it?

We're not giving Arsenal much credit by the way. And again we're not acknowledging our own limitations.

[LiamG]

Anyone know a site where i can get all the match statistics from like amount of passes, pass completion etc?

[steveeastend]

People honestly believe Carragher dragged us back twenty yards at the very start of the 2nd half because he was tired? That if we were 20 yards from where BR wanted us to be he may not of actually told us to shift?

We came out after half time with a game plan to defend deep - european away style deep,  lets keep what we've got. I dont think that decison was Carraghers. I hope not anyway. It wasn't Carraghers legs that determined it or Lucas's lungs or Gerrards 32 year old limbs. It was a lack of belief in our ability to outplay Arsenal, a lack of belief in our ability to win a game even when one nil up and playing a side that simply could not defend. This had to be the worst Arsenal side we've faced for a decade and more and we did not back ourselves to beat them, we settled to try and keep a win but a draw would be ok.

Now maybe BR knows our mentality, you have to hope so, maybe he saw how frail we looked in possession, maybe he thought our legs are going to go, maybe he thought we'll bottle this, maybe he looked at the pro's and cons and said , you know what we need to defend deep to have any chance of getting a result because I dont fancy us to keep them out - and lo and behold we got the draw we'd have settled for at kick off - but its not what I'd want to see - I'd want to see him say - you know what Arsenal are here for the taking tonight, we aint playing Arsenal circa 2004 or even 2011, actually our defence is better than theirs and our attack is better than theirs and our midfield is roughly the same so we'll go for the win. Lets see what a win does for our psyche, lets see what showing I believe in them does........

Great post! But it´s all part of it. There are just too many players around at the moment who cannot play a passing game under pressure. And Carra, he quoted himself being not used to this way of play and probably won´t be able to change, is part of it but not the only reason. Henderson may be mobile and show a lot of effort, just as Downing but both are not able to play this sort of game at the moment, just as Wisdom. For that, they would have pushed us back with or without a clear order from the manager, just because of some players in the line up. IMO.

To me, we still should have tried though. Like against ManU and Tottenham second half. That´s how to learn and grow as a team IMO. But Rodgers probably wouldn´t take the risk, just as in the first couple of games this season, because of the pressure he had to take.

As Royhendo said, it´s not about sitting deep in general, you can sit deep and still have plenty of possession and pass the ball. But then again, a team being able to do so, wouldn´t sit back, what for?

[Redeo]

PS - the handball was a penalty, and Giroud's dive hasn't seen a single column inch (but we know how that works).

[PhaseOfPlay]

Anyone know a site where i can get all the match statistics from like amount of passes, pass completion etc?

There are loads. Whoscored, EPLIndex, Squawka, and more.

[Redeo]

It's bizarre last season we knocked United and City out of the Cups beat Chelsea three times and won at the Emirates so we have no reason to fear the top sides, yet this season especially away from home we have given them way too much respect early on in games.

Yes, but it kind of makes sense too. We're playing a new system based on dominating games/possession, which requires time and is easier to pull off against less skillful teams.

[princeoftherocks]

we started having not beaten a team in the top half...   Our task was inspring.  After 2-0 we lost the fight.  Simple.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

Tactically, I think we got it completely wrong and I thought that we were quite lucky to score twice.

- We were far too deep
- We couldn't keep possession
- Sturridge was isolated

It was an odd game, I thought we played very well in parts but there was constantly a sense that we would concede, just a shame that we conceded twice within minutes of goaling 2-0 up.

How nice was it to see Carragher playing so well after so long out of the team? He was tidy in possession too.

He played very well and suprisingly so for a 35 who doesn't get a lot of game time but the centre back issue is worrying. We can't rely on Carragher on a consistent basis and last year Skrtel was immense, hopefully it's just Rodgers giving Skrtel's head a shake and not anything long term.

Wisdom looked a little lost tonight. Is the return of Enrique timely, or would you persevere with the young man?

He's only 19 and he's at the birth of his footballing career but I don't think he fits a Brendan Rodgers' side. We need the fullbacks to be able to attack and bring the ball out of the back four and yesterday the amount of times he passed it back to Reina was possibly record breaking. Defensively as well, there are a few question marks.

Arsenal found a lot of space on his side a few times, it could be poor positioning or our whole defense getting dragged across to cover but a few times Podolski or Wilshere would find themselves completely free and able to pick out a cross. Just good to see Enrique is back because a back four with Johnson and Enrique does very well both offensively and defensively.

The midfield three were bogged down for a lot of the game, is Lucas showing signs of getting back to his best or is he still looking rusty?

Thought the midfield worked very well for the first 30-35 minutes of the first half, we were pressing as a team and really limiting the amount of time and space that Cazorla and Wilshere had, then he started to ease off and we could've easily conceded. Then after we scored our second, it just all went to shit and we were all over the place, we recovered eventually but we were two goals down.

It's a shame because Arsenal really pushed hard after our first goal, we weathered the storm and settled. We didn't allow ourselves to do that after our second and it really cost us. As for Lucas, I don't think we'll see the best of him until late this season or next season, depending on whether he can stay injury free. Really can't under-estimate how much a year out has affected him.

Henderson scored a wonderful goal tonight and chased his heart out, however I feel as though he is lacking that little bit of composure and quality. Am I being harsh on him, and if not, can the composure be taught over time?

Bit harsh, he is proving to be the difference for us because his pressing is so good, he was giving Wilshere a real game and making sure they couldn't settle in our third of the pitch. His final ball was lacking on occasion but he set up Suarez's goal, scored one and came close to scoring before too.

One of his best attributes is his vision and passing, he can clearly see the opportunities that we can see when we scream for him to pass but a few times yesterday he missed the target by a yard or two. The more games he gets, the better he'll be. He's still only 22.

Suarez played very deep for most of the game and played well (one of the passes of the season first half) - was Rodgers right to play him from the left, or would you have liked to see him more advanced and central?

First half (like most of the team) he played very well from that role but I thought half time we needed to change things around, especially after we scored a second. Would've like to have seen Downing go off for Enrique and then played something like this...

------------------------- Reina -----------------------

---------- Wisdom --- Carra ---- Agger -----------

Johnson ----- Gerrard ----- Lucas ----- Enrique

--------------------- Henderson ---------------------

------------ Sturridge ------ Suarez ----------------

We would've been able to stop them overloading on the flanks and stifled them through the middle, leave Suarez and Sturridge up front and when we get the ball up to them, they are like a two man wrecking machine plus you've got runners from the midfield too.

[Saul Goodman]

Rodger's said in the interview after the game that he was trying to get Enrique on the pitch at 2-0 but he had a problem with his boots and by the time he could make the change it was 2-2. Reason was he thought Luis was tiring and we needed more down that side. If you watch Luis directly after we score the second you can see he's running himself into the ground trying to cover back. I think had we got Enrique on in time to shore up that side we probably would have closed out the match.

[princeoftherocks]

I don't understand this forum's love affair with Carragher.  He did well, but he's never gonna be anything other than a stand-in for br's main cast.  A new team is being built. 

I think the commentator said that no-one was marking girou for arsenal's first goal.  Looked to me like carra really fucked that one up.  That's all it takes at the highest level, just one mistake, one goal.  He was in the team out of necessity, or else i think brendan just respects his knowledge of the game. 

but everyone's young nowadays, really fit and carraghers had a few too many cheese and onion pasties. 

[stevied]

I think the commentator said that no-one was marking girou for arsenal's first goal.  Looked to me like carra really fucked that one up. 

Aggers man