Topic: Villa Round Table - Or Clubs You Hate

[LucasLeiva]

Thought Downing had a cracking first half and Stevie looked so much better pushed higher up, just one of those games I guess, the defence fell to pieces twice and the first goal Suarez tried a stupid skill in his own half after a close call in a 3v2 situation moments before. We could have been 3-0 up in the first 20 minutes with better final passes. Thought Raheem didn't have a great game, ran at them well but his crossing was dire today.

[Fruity]

Benteke is something else though. I can't say I've watched all too much of Villa this season, but when I do, he sticks out like an erection in pyjamas that fella. Why are we particularly bad at defending against this type of player though? Carlton Cole last week ripped our defence to pieces. Drogba constantly tore us apart. Maybe our centre-half pairing aren't as complete as we all might think.

I have thought this for a long time. There are certain forwards who make our Central defence look poor. I also recall another world beater Amr Zaki of Wigan fame doing similar to us. Carlton Cole has done it on previous occasions and Drogba seemed to do it everytime he played us. Maybe one of agger or Skrtel or both are just not as good as some think they are. Or maybe its a lack of pace against certain forwards. Maybe both are a little too light in their frames and get bullied easy. Its bizarre how a certain type of forward always seem to cause us problems.

[jaffod]

I find this quote of Johnson to be very interesting...

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/glen-we-ll-put-villa-loss-behind-us

"You can say we needed to pass the ball that bit quicker, but sometimes it's difficult to play too quick because you have so much room. When you're in loads of room then you are supposed to move into that space.

"When the opposition are so compact around the edge of the box then your little passes have to be perfect. When you have a day like we did when your passing isn't perfect that makes it very difficult to break them down."

"I really don't know what we have to do to get a penalty," said Johnson. "There was that one when Daniel was having his shirt pulled and the other one when I headed it and their guy basically caught it.

"We have had some clear cut ones but for whatever reason we just aren't being given them."

Perfect passing around the box comes from talent and endless practising in training, also the quality of crossing. Either itīs the talent or the practise but we kind of lack both at this moment as we are not used to play teams sitting back with ten (anymore).

Rodgers hopefully will work on that with the players although I expect Fulham with a more open game approach next week as they donīt have the players for playing on a counter.

I'd say the biggest problem with our passing game is that the man receiving the ball is nearly always static. Or worse still, the pass goes behind him like Suarez's pass to Gerrard in the first half.
 There have been many comparisons (some in this thread) with how we are trying to play and how Barcelona play. Tika-taka I believe it's called. It's laughable really, I've watched Barca all season and what strikes me is how the player receiving the ball is generally in full flow, especially around the box.
 We are a million miles away from emulating this with our turgid, ponderous passing game.

[Banquo's Ghost]

And let me add that while Sterling ran himself to the ground and gave his all, and despite his being very active in the last 20 mins or so, his performance, objectively viewed, was disappointing. His reception/first touch of long(ish) passes was atrocious, bordering on the comical. Having been blessed with access to La Liga matches for the first time this season (my cable provider finally added beIN Sport), I had the misfortune of comparing our players' first touches/ball reception to those of actually technically proficient players: Jesus wept.

I agreed with most of your post but this was the aspect of the game that most frustrated me. Sterling really needs more time in training to work on this first touch because playing him so often in matches will ingrain this bad habit even more. All his pace and trickery is useless when he miscontrols the pass so often. It allows defences to settle and push him away from danger - or more often, disposes him easily.

Add to this our ponderous use of the ball, apparent unwillingness to take chancy runs into the box and general lethargy in possession, and of course teams are going to defend deep an counter. The recycling of the ball after a stalled attack is slow and amazingly predictable - across the 20-30 metre zone, sideways, back a little, over to Sterling, run with it for a few yards before losing the ball or stalling and then rinse and repeat. Even after we scored, with just a few minutes left on the clock, we trod the same slow path. Maybe the players had already given up.

The optimist in me says that perhaps, like any new way of doing this, you've got to learn slow and then speed it up. The pessimist tells me that there aren't even slow cutting passes being tried - little or no invention. Yet the first 15 minutes seem to give that the lie, so I continue to be hopeful. Nonetheless, I am firmly in the reality check camp. We are improving a tad, and there will always be good wins and setbacks, and this will be for a while yet. Winning teams take a long, long time to build the needed consistency.

I support Brendan as our manager, and hope for the best. I can sort of see what he is trying to do, though I wish sometimes for more flexibility. (Though again, when you're bedding down a way of doing things, mixing it up every couple of games can be fatal, so I can understand him being obdurate). I worry about his apparent favouritism, but since I'm not a Premiership manager, it's not for me to gainsay his choices. I worry about his choices in the transfer market, but it's really early in the day to judge him (I always used to argue that Rafa was a great judge of talent, but if you take choice of one window in his reign you could prove him either a genius or a clown depending on your position). We'll get more of an idea this January, but it's a constrained market so I'll be more interested in next July. I do wish that he would be more circumspect with his commentary. The 'second place' stuff was unhelpful and sets us up for mockery. Let's achieve on the pitch, Brendan, let the media sort their own quotes.

It takes a long time to rebuild any team, and I'm not unduly worried. I could do without losses like Saturday's but football would be somewhat dull if there weren't reverses on the ride. Equally, as fans we must stop with the condescension to teams like Villa. They mugged us good and proper, and we should never take anyone lightly. There's no guaranteed points just because of our history, and when we are champions again, there won't be any guaranteed points then either.

Finally, my 'hated' team has always been Nottingham Forest. Jumped up wannabes that got in the way too often in those great days, and full of themselves with it. No longer hate them though. There but for the grace of God an' all....

[Phil M]

I have thought this for a long time. There are certain forwards who make our Central defence look poor. I also recall another world beater Amr Zaki of Wigan fame doing similar to us. Carlton Cole has done it on previous occasions and Drogba seemed to do it everytime he played us. Maybe one of agger or Skrtel or both are just not as good as some think they are. Or maybe its a lack of pace against certain forwards. Maybe both are a little too light in their frames and get bullied easy. Its bizarre how a certain type of forward always seem to cause us problems.

To be fair I think we've seen the so called best defences in the country terrorised by lesser players. Grant Holt bullied the mancs and Demba Ba has given many PL defenders nightmares. Even Bobby Zamora has looked like Didier Drogba at times. Benteke is young and fearless and out to make a name for himself. We gave him all the room in the world and he exploited it. Against better opponents Agger and Skrtel might be arguably more switched on and aware of where their main threats are. Neither had faced Benteke before so he was an unknown quantity.
On Saturday it seemed like everyone was passing the buck in terms of responsibility for closing down or disposessing. It was as if our players were saying to each other 'hurry up and get the ball back so we can score up the other end' but no one was doing the dirty work and getting in Villa's faces. As soon as the second went in and the peno was later denied we were deflated.

[Gnurglan]

It was as if our players were saying to each other 'hurry up and get the ball back so we can score up the other end' but no one was doing the dirty work and getting in Villa's faces.

Agree. Our pressing game doesn't function as well as we'd like. Our game seems to be built around when we have the ball and not much else. I admire the style Rodgers is trying to implement, but we're missing the defensive part of it.

[steveeastend]

I'd say the biggest problem with our passing game is that the man receiving the ball is nearly always static. Or worse still, the pass goes behind him like Suarez's pass to Gerrard in the first half.
 There have been many comparisons (some in this thread) with how we are trying to play and how Barcelona play. Tika-taka I believe it's called. It's laughable really, I've watched Barca all season and what strikes me is how the player receiving the ball is generally in full flow, especially around the box.
 We are a million miles away from emulating this with our turgid, ponderous passing game.

Rodgers quoting Barca at the beginning of the season was probably a mistake. Of course we are far from it and comparisions doesnīt make any sense at all at this point, maybe never.

The things you were refering to were exactly my observation as well. The movement without the ball was bad, not existing but thatīs a matter of having the right atttitude and desire which we lacked yesterday.

In addition, Suarez doesnīt trust his team mates in general. He tried to play together with Gerrard, Shelvey but was disappointed with the result. So if he feels that both of them, Sterling as well, are lacking cutting edge he would rather go for an individual run.

The thing is that weīve seen this better this season in a couple of games. The movement still has to be better for having a better passing game in the final third though and of course we will need better players linking up with Suarez. Enrique, Sterling (because of his age), Downing or playing Shelvey out of position cannot be the answer, the injury of Borini was bad luck but again showed that we desperately have to sign a couple of quality players for upfront.

I think we would be better without Gerrard at the moment, he isnīt on the level physically to be mobile enough for making himself available for a pass. Playing the killer pass is not enough, his mobility and passing quality in the final third, when it matters just isnīt there anymore and one of the reasons why Suarez decides to go for an individual run.

Unfortunately we donīt have too many options to go for instead of him though as we refused to buy a possible substitute for him for years. Gerrard has been, and still is, seen as unreplacable.

[Free Kuyt]

Irrational dislike: Cardiff

BR has talked about building a possession game. We certainly had lots of possession. Early on he said that if you dominate with the ball you have a 77% or 79% chance (I forget the figure) of winning a game. Now that may be true. But what that tells me is that teams which dominate possession have something else which allows them to score. You can't work backwards and conclude that possession wins you games. Possession only allows you to win games.

From the moment Villa went ahead I couldn't see a Liverpool goal coming from anywhere. They had seven or eight men crowding the box and it was just too tight to work openings once we'd gone through our two minute routine of passing it round at the back to establish comfortable possession.

It highlights a weakness that if we go behind the other team can stifle us knowing that we're not going to hit them with quick, precise attacks. We're almost too methodical at the moment. We don't seem able to play on the counter, we don't seem to know how to - where to run, how to time and weight the pass. We played a team that can and they picked us off.

Having said that, I think predominantly counter-attacking teams hit a ceiling in the League. Like Spurs under Redknapp, or us under Houllier. You hit a wall where there's nowhere else to go. Rafa shifted us to a game based on possession and a vice-like grip on midfield and then started adding in the quick counter goals, the Reina to Torres counter, the Gerrard Torres axis. But these didn't happen overnight. They were added to a solid base of position and possession which could be frustrating to watch, but which was developing into something quite brilliant. That team was broken up by inept finance and an utterly incompetent boardroom.

So we're having to starting over and it's frustrating. I think it's going to be frustrating for a while yet. We're establishing a system but at the moment have no tempo - we don't move the ball quickly enough to cause teams problems on a consistent basis. In the past we've rushed attacks, tried killer passes too early, too carelessly. Now we're too slow and cautious. The longer it takes to find the balance, the bigger the mountain we give ourselves to climb.

[Gojedo]

Man U and Waitemata FC, for a bit of my own local detesting.

Blip or reality check? I personally believe that depends on where BR goes from here. I don't think the 4-3-3 is working and I don't feel we have the players to make it work or at the very least Rodger's is not playing those who would function a lot better than some of the players he is using in his system. That is not a critique on any one player, it all comes down to the formation/system and the type of player that functions in a role within that. For example I feel Allen would be better suited to a 4-2-3-1 alonside Lucas. I would like to see Gerrard behind Suarez or on the right, or Suarez behind a proven #9. In fact there could be a host of interchangable options with the front 4 in a 4-2-3-1 if we had the right players available or the right players in those postions that are currently part of the squd now, Suso one example.

I feel the 4-2-3-1 is better suited to a possession and passing game. Are we looking to become exponents of a composed short passing game? I feel we need to show a lot more patience in and around our attacking third and obviously we need to be a lot more clinical in front of goal. I would also like to see us dictate the tempo more in the middle third. Speed it up, slow it down when the pace of the game situation dictates it.

I think this would provide us with a better balance on the pitch. I feel Johnson and Enrique would thrive in this system (though to be fair both are in top form now), provide more security to our CB's and we would be defensively more solid and less susceptible to the counter attack. It would also allow for better transition to the 4-3-3/4-5-1 when needed. Downing had a great first half I thought and who knows, he could be a back up option in the LB spot if he is still here post January. But as a starting LB I'm not too convinced.

Henderson I feel deserves a start and is a player who I think would do a decent job alongside Lucas but then he seems to function well in a CM 3 but then I believe we would need to look at playing Gerrard at the apex of the 3, behind the three forwards with the two wingers who are actually wingers.

I don't know. I guess we all have opinions on what would be the best system or who should be starting and who should be playing where but personally speaking I feel we need to move away from the 4-3-3 as we currently are applying it and look to use a system that would provide us with a better balance throughout the starting 11, stop playing players out of position and use players in positions that would make us function better as a unit.

[Fromola]

I have thought this for a long time. There are certain forwards who make our Central defence look poor. I also recall another world beater Amr Zaki of Wigan fame doing similar to us. Carlton Cole has done it on previous occasions and Drogba seemed to do it everytime he played us. Maybe one of agger or Skrtel or both are just not as good as some think they are. Or maybe its a lack of pace against certain forwards. Maybe both are a little too light in their frames and get bullied easy. Its bizarre how a certain type of forward always seem to cause us problems.

I think forwards like Cole, Fellaini/Jelavic, Benteke and Crouch and Stoke next week require more of a height and physical presence at the back and they're the games to put Coates in.

Even when Hyypia was fazed out, he was always thrown in for those type of fixtures.

[CHOPPER]

I find this quote of Johnson to be very interesting...

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/glen-we-ll-put-villa-loss-behind-us

"You can say we needed to pass the ball that bit quicker, but sometimes it's difficult to play too quick because you have so much room. When you're in loads of room then you are supposed to move into that space.

"When the opposition are so compact around the edge of the box then your little passes have to be perfect. When you have a day like we did when your passing isn't perfect that makes it very difficult to break them down."

"I really don't know what we have to do to get a penalty," said Johnson. "There was that one when Daniel was having his shirt pulled and the other one when I headed it and their guy basically caught it.

"We have had some clear cut ones but for whatever reason we just aren't being given them."

Perfect passing around the box comes from talent and endless practising in training, also the quality of crossing. Either itīs the talent or the practise but we kind of lack both at this moment as we are not used to play teams sitting back with ten (anymore).

Rodgers hopefully will work on that with the players although I expect Fulham with a more open game approach next week as they donīt have the players for playing on a counter.

Perhaps being a tad cuter and not so hurried. In the good old days, we'd draw teams out of their positions, nowadays we run straight into a wall of bodies and with that, the passing and movement loses momentum.

And our movement at times is none existent. Pass and move? Maybe a re-work and move then pass may help us.

One thing that worries me is that mentally we feel like a team that doesn't think it can score, heads go down too easy. Hate saying it - but watching the mancs, you get the feel they believe they will score and invariably they do, we, well we don't.

[wah00ey]

I have thought this for a long time. There are certain forwards who make our Central defence look poor. I also recall another world beater Amr Zaki of Wigan fame doing similar to us. Carlton Cole has done it on previous occasions and Drogba seemed to do it everytime he played us. Maybe one of agger or Skrtel or both are just not as good as some think they are. Or maybe its a lack of pace against certain forwards. Maybe both are a little too light in their frames and get bullied easy. Its bizarre how a certain type of forward always seem to cause us problems.

Maybe we need to play a different centre-back pairing when playing against teams with players like this?  Step forward Mr Coates in such circumstances?

[Hank Scorpio]

Maybe our centre-half pairing aren't as complete as we all might think.

They are not.  Far too many times they make simple long balls look as if they are missiles.  This is the Premier League.  Teams will play long balls and strikers will muscle you.  If you can't deal with that and the subsequent scramble for the 2nd ball, you are very likely to concede goals.

Agger and Skrtel both have good qualities, and in Agger's case some of them are great, but together they have not shown enough to deal with this problem which will present itself in 80% of league fixtures. 

Not since Hyypia have we had a centreback that can deal adequately with a long ball.  No surprise that our defence has been going downhill since he left.

[Fromola]

They are not.  Far too many times they make simple long balls look as if they are missiles.  This is the Premier League.  Teams will play long balls and strikers will muscle you.  If you can't deal with that and the subsequent scramble for the 2nd ball, you are very likely to concede goals.

Agger and Skrtel both have good qualities, and in Agger's case some of them are great, but together they have not shown enough to deal with this problem which will present itself in 80% of league fixtures. 

Not since Hyypia have we had a centreback that can deal adequately with a long ball.  No surprise that our defence has been going downhill since he left.

That's what Coates is there for.

[Fat Scouser]

Stoke.
My realities got checked a long time back.
But as for the result, play your center halves on two seperate pitches, while your fullbacks are playing as wingers and one is a winger, with a midget trying to hold a groc up in the middle, chances are that's what will happen.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'd imagine that there will be a fair few of these types of results this season.  Rodgers is building the side and should be allowed to do so.  Mistakes and errors in judgement are part of the process.

As others have said, Rodgers has to find the right balance between pragmatism and idealism.  His style of play is sensitive to quality.  If he doesn't have the right players, those players of the higher bracket, then it will be difficult to implement and you'll get days like this.  More so, the style requires good decision makers.  Players that when presented with choice will make the right decision, which is often contextual, time after time.  Rodgers can take the choice away from players by making things simpler but that's not what he wants, at least not on evidence.

It must also be frustrating for him when his best players make bad decisions.  But it will happen.  It's not easy to ask players to play possession football, on the ground, in an effective manner.  These things will take time.  I am just wondering whether he has a phased approach, which demands different levels from players and is easier to digest.  At the end of the day, you are working with extremely talented people, but they are not rocket scientists.

Rodgers has to ensure that while trying to create a Utopia, he doesn't fall on his own sword. 

[rocco]

Sat down and watched the game with no distractions , after 90 mins my head was just racing with frustration and disappointment

Where do you start ?
Midfield 3 and front 3 just don't act as a unit whatsoever
Allen and Lucas way to close to each other so on the counter attack both been made redundant with one cutting pass .
Why the fcuk are we standing off attackers when their 3-5 yards from our box , Villa had it so easy just to run free and shot or pass .
Suarez IMO was to blame for the first goal with a stupid flick and leaving us exposed
2nd goal we stood of again but nice play by Villa
3rd goal were to blame again just stand and watch again
We're great with the ball most of the time but final pass and shot are terrible for the possession we had but when we don't have the ball we just look set of individuals going through the motions than a fight unit wanting it back .
Villa could have easily score 5/6 our defending as a team was that bad

Frustrating , Agger shooting in he 80 min and hitting his standing foot just summed it up for myself .

We're so fcuking soft as a team it's worrying

[steveeastend]

Hate saying it - but watching the mancs, you get the feel they believe they will score and invariably they do, we, well we don't.

This comparison doesnīt work mate. Van Persie, Rooney and Chicarito to rotate, of course there is believe to score there.

Imagine if we had Torres, Suarez and Gerrard in his prime around, we are far from this quality.

Instead, the players have to stick to the believe that it will work out IF they are willing to work together as a team for the entire 90 minutes. We just didnīt on saturday.

Besides that, the refs being biased against us has an impact as well. The Ferguson administration should just fuck off, those wankers. They are still gettin away with far too much.

[helmboy_nige]

Irrational hatred?  Stoke...

Blip or Reality Check?  It's a blip in terms of we did everything right in the opening 30 mins but just reverted to our old no-confidence style.

I have never known a Liverpool team like this.  Nothing to do with Rodgers, but entirely down to something that happened to them at the end of Rafa era.  The team simply doesn't believe it can get back into a game, which is moronic given that we came back only last week at West Ham.

I don't think the system is to blame for the goals we conceded, many of them felt like a result of individual mistakes.  the exception was the second one in which the team was at fault for acting like we were 1-0 down with 5 minutes to go instead of 45.  I'm pretty certain Rodgers system doesn't call for caution to be thrown to the wind so carelessly when one down and still in the first half.

Nor is the system to blame for our lack of goals.  I don't think there is a quick fix about signing a striker, this feels like a matter of confidence (and luck) in front of goal.  If you compare it to last season, the biggest scream I used to hear was about us never getting players in the box.  They were there on Saturday, but our final decision making or Villas die hard defending saved them.

I suppose this is a reality check for those fans who thought we'd be strolling to 4th.  Many said at the start of the season that this rebuild would be a long haul and there would be results like this along the way.  We can still make 4th this season, but as at the start it was and is a long shot.

Maybe we should 'expect' to finish 8th and be happy if we do better.

How different would the game have been had we scored in the opening 30 mins?

[MobileBayRed]

What the Hell was that?  I have been trying to figure out for 48 hours what I watched on Saturday, but I cannot figure it out.  My Grandma used to say hindsight is 20/20, but I think this game proves that wrong.  Even after knowing what I saw, I'm not sure I KNOW what I saw.

Let's start with fatigue, since that seems to be a major talking point after the weekend.  I did not see many signs of physical fatigue during the game.  In fact, our passing, tackling and possession stats look eerily similar to just about every other match this season.  None of the goals we conceeded came as a result of us being heavy legged.  Now, maybe you can convince me that there was a mental fatigue to certain players, but even that I have to question.  Yes, there was an overall sloppiness to everything we did, but was that the result of mental fatigue?  How does that explain Suarez's poor play; he hadn't played in almost two weeks.  He should have been fully ready to go, yet it was his silly error that led directly to our first goal.  It started before that though, his simple pass to put Gerrard in 1v1 was woeful and denied us an early lead.  His error would be fully returned shortly thereafter when a perfect cross to Gerrard who was in on goal was sloppily handled and rolled harmlessly out for a free kick.  There seemed to be a casualness in our play; is that indicative of mental fatigue?

I have to agree with Rodgers' post game assessment.  How on earth could you see that coming.  We were high on confidence.  This was our first match with no mid-week match or international break.  Rodgers put out his strongest side and from the start we had them pinned in our own half.  I just dont get it, whatever IT may be:  complacency, fatigue, etc.

I have been thinking alot about phase's idea of three at the back.  I must say my knee-jerk response was that we do not need to set up so defensively, with three at the back, plus Lucas.  However, on more thought, I think maybe this should be tried.  When Suarez plays upfront, I don't think it matters whether you have one or two supporting forwards.  He is such an enigma offensively; equally likely to dribble in the box and get his own shot as he is to put in a cross.  A quick note here, what has happened to Skrtel?  He seems to have regressed from last year. 

Ultimately, I think the match comes down to either individual errors or an overall lack of effort. 

As for the two questions:

1)  I will never admit that my hatred for other teams is irrational.  I support one team but root for two every weekend:  Liverpool and whoever is playing United.

2)  I hope like hell this is a blip.  My fear is that we have too many players who lack the mental toughness necessary to push through mediocrity.  I think this team needs a Bellamy, someone for whom average is not acceptable.

[sinnermichael]

unbelievable to think that since 2000, we've only conceded 3 at home in a league game on 6 occasions, and 3 of those have been against villa.

[Mutton Geoff]

In the old days hated Leeds and Leicester, Leeds because they were dirty cheating bastards and Leicester were a bogey team, these days still hate Leeds, but in the prem now i suppose Sunderland would be the team i most dislike!

As to the game, christ were to start well Villa played a great tactical game the young lads at the back were yes at times lucky we could have had a OG in the first few minutes but generally they kept us reasonably quiet.

Their goals in the first half were strange the second was just brilliant football but as Benteke was approaching the box with the first one i kept thinkin gwhy are they giving him so much room, nobody challenged him at all?
As for the third one well we parted like the red sea never seen our defence so bad  as then, that was like a schoolboy defensive cock up.
So you have to say through gritted teeth well done Villa.
Negatives for us far too many but here are a few, i dont care what Stevie believes or Rodgers he needs to be upfront and not anywhere near the midfield, Luis needs to look up and pass now and then, i know this is being picky considering the goals he has got this season but a squared ball was required a couple of times for a tap in.
Sterling is a young kid but he needs to work on his crossing a bit to be as good as he should be.
Allen and Lucas i thought were poor in this game as well, Downing was the best on the pitch for us, was it the shop window effect or his ex club i dont know but a few more like that and i would cancel selling him.

Merry xmas

[GrkStav]

I would bring him back in January as he adds height and strength that we miss against some of the bigger teams who defend deep. Carroll will win the ball if the crosses are good.........most of our other forwards won't. Gerrard can whip in a flat cross that Carroll would love to attack.

I am sorry, this is the proper post-match discussion thread but I just can't let it go.

There is some creative fiction, perhaps wishful thinking, involved in the above description of what Carroll can do, especially if it is based on his performances with us, or even the few performances with WHU this season, whilst he's on loan with them.

Carroll does not win the ball often enough, and consistently enough. He is slow and ponderous, and on top of that, he constantly whinges and moans to his team-mates, the referee, anyone who can be remotely considered likely to listen.

I would venture that there's a snowball's chance in Hell that we're going to recall AC in January. And, to me, rightly so.

[kopite.keith]

Blasphemer!
STONE HIM!!

 

[norbert]

I'd imagine that there will be a fair few of these types of results this season.  Rodgers is building the side and should be allowed to do so.  Mistakes and errors in judgement are part of the process.

As others have said, Rodgers has to find the right balance between pragmatism and idealism.  His style of play is sensitive to quality.  If he doesn't have the right players, those players of the higher bracket, then it will be difficult to implement and you'll get days like this.  More so, the style requires good decision makers.  Players that when presented with choice will make the right decision, which is often contextual, time after time.  Rodgers can take the choice away from players by making things simpler but that's not what he wants, at least not on evidence.

It must also be frustrating for him when his best players make bad decisions.  But it will happen.  It's not easy to ask players to play possession football, on the ground, in an effective manner.  These things will take time.  I am just wondering whether he has a phased approach, which demands different levels from players and is easier to digest.  At the end of the day, you are working with extremely talented people, but they are not rocket scientists.

Rodgers has to ensure that while trying to create a Utopia, he doesn't fall on his own sword.

The players he has at his disposal are better man for man than the ones he had at Swansea, but that does not mean they will make a better team. It is all about the sum of the parts, not the individuals. At the moment the sum does not add up.

[ahfolk79]

I am sorry, this is the proper post-match discussion thread but I just can't let it go.

There is some creative fiction, perhaps wishful thinking, involved in the above description of what Carroll can do, especially if it is based on his performances with us, or even the few performances with WHU this season, whilst he's on loan with them.

Carroll does not win the ball often enough, and consistently enough. He is slow and ponderous, and on top of that, he constantly whinges and moans to his team-mates, the referee, anyone who can be remotely considered likely to listen.

I would venture that there's a snowball's chance in Hell that we're going to recall AC in January. And, to me, rightly so.

I have to agree with this. He's looked one dimensional at West Ham. Before his injury he wasn't exactly thriving in a team set to play to his strengths. If he can't do it at West Ham he's not going to do it anywhere.

I've tried to let my fury about the Villa result subside before posting. But the more I think of our season the more I think we've just become Swansea from last season. Playing pretty football and getting some decent results but ultimately inconsistent and mid-table. Of course I support Brendan and it's difficult to really judge him after the shambles of our last transfer window. He's had to take a boot in the bollocks and get on with it with a smile.

However my big misgiving with Brendan's ideas is that we are trying to implement the Barca philosophy too quickly (and query whether that's even a sensible target to start with). I remember reading an interview with Salif Diao after he's moved to Stoke or whoever and he said how Rafa had said he would work on the defence the first season, the midfield the season after that and then the attack. Now that may be a ridiculous over simplification (and according to Carra's autobiography Diao was certainly a bit thick) but surely there has to be some merit in getting our defending sorted first. Every time I've watched us this season it's seems that there is at least a ten minute spell when the opposition is absolutely tearing through our midfield at will. Even if Lucas recovers his pre-injury form I still think we need a destroyer in midfield. The likes of M'Villa alongside Lucas for me would be ideal in the games where we need to stifle the opposition. I cannot understand why that type of player is not a priority.

For me, we all went over the top after a lucky win at West Ham last weekend. Four points off fourth etc. What we all failed to focus on is that that was also the case for Swansea and Norwich. Frankly I think we need to get our expectations under control for this season. We're not getting fourth or even the top six. But hopefully it can actually be a transitional season in the true sense of the phrase - ie where we're actually going somewhere or moving forwards.

[TheLeftSide]

Stoke
Any resemblance to football is purely coincidental.

[Fat Scouser]

Maybe we need to play a different centre-back pairing when playing against teams with players like this?  Step forward Mr Coates in such circumstances?

Centre backs aren't the problem. It's having them spread akimbo with a midget having the job of stopping huge centre forwards bursting through the middle, with the full backs up the other end of the pitch and offering no cover. We've been sussed out. It's no accident/coincidence that we made Benteke look like Eusebio and Cole had his best game in donkies against us.

[steveeastend]

Centre backs aren't the problem. It's having them spread akimbo with a midget having the job of stopping huge centre forwards bursting through the middle, with the full backs up the other end of the pitch and offering no cover. We've been sussed out. It's no accident/coincidence that we made Benteke look like Eusebio and Cole had his best game in donkies against us.

Thatīs true. It happened against Everton as well with Fellaini.

We need more strength in holding midfield since the beginning of the season but if you think about it, this actually hasnīt changed since last seasons Lucas injury. He is still far from being back and we still havenīt signed a proper player to do his job ever since...

Still there was enough out there, tactical wise and overall quality to win these games, Everton, West Ham and Villa, I think itīs definitely possible to make up for it if the players keep up the concentration and work for each other.

[Fat Scouser]

Thatīs true. It happened against Everton as well with Fellaini.

They've all twigged it Steve. Before the Arsenal game, I said all Arsenal had to do was sit back and leave the likes of Walcott round the centre circle. I was worried then about our soft middle and a speedster bursting through it. It's worse. Cart horses and donkies are just ploughing right through it now. I didn't think about that then. But they're all on to it and doing the same thing... rope a dope, sit back, while we huff and puff, then hit us with a straight sucker punch, right through the middle. It's happening pretty much every game.

[jaffod]

unbelievable to think that since 2000, we've only conceded 3 at home in a league game on 6 occasions, and 3 of those have been against villa.

That stat is so mad I had to go and check it and you're absolutely right.

[steveeastend]

They've all twigged it Steve. Before the Arsenal game, I said all Arsenal had to do was sit back and leave the likes of Walcott round the centre circle. I was worried then about our soft middle and a speedster bursting through it. It's worse. Cart horses and donkies are just ploughing right through it now. I didn't think about that then. But they're all on to it and doing the same thing... rope a dope, sit back, while we huff and puff, then hit us with a straight sucker punch, right through the middle. It's happening pretty much every game.

I think at the moment there is only one option in order to solve this with Henderson, who seem to be fit enough at the moment, supporting Lucas in the holding role. I cannot think of any other player to be able to stop a mobile and strong player like Toure, Cole etc. in case the midfield isnīt able to win the second ball further up the pitch.

Lucas is too slow at the moment, which was very visible saturday. Allen too tired but anyway not strong enough for the holding role.

Itīs something to be solved by Rodgers, he just cannot rely on us playing "around" this with possession, just too risky at the moment as our midfield is definitely not mobile enough and Gerrard plays a big role in this as well as some counter attacks could be stopped further up the pitch with an intelligent foul or ruthless tackle. Saturday was bad and should give Rodgers something to think about.

[Gnurglan]

They've all twigged it Steve. Before the Arsenal game, I said all Arsenal had to do was sit back and leave the likes of Walcott round the centre circle. I was worried then about our soft middle and a speedster bursting through it. It's worse. Cart horses and donkies are just ploughing right through it now. I didn't think about that then. But they're all on to it and doing the same thing... rope a dope, sit back, while we huff and puff, then hit us with a straight sucker punch, right through the middle. It's happening pretty much every game.

That's how to play against us. Fulham vill do the same. I think we know it too. We had the problem vs Everton and then we decided to play Coates and we jammed the center with players.

[steveeastend]

That's how to play against us. Fulham vill do the same. I think we know it too. We had the problem vs Everton and then we decided to play Coates and we jammed the center with players.

Fulham wonīt be that bad I think as they usually play more open and their attacking players not quick enough (Berbatov, Petric) but frankly I havenīt watched them enough to have a reasonable opinion here.

[Gnurglan]

Fulham wonīt be that bad I think as they usually play more open and their attacking players not quick enough (Berbatov, Petric) but frankly I havenīt watched them enough to have a reasonable opinion here.

Can't say I have seen them a great deal either, but I'd expect them to have had a look at us.

[aggerdid]

the way i saw the game on saturday. the midfield was as its been all season. the defence which has been so good up to now had an off day. turning a narrow win or a draw into a shock loss

[Danny_]

There are no easy games in the PL but comparatively speaking, Villa at home is almost as easy as it gets.  It was a game that we really should be winning.  And that is what makes it so difficult to stomach.  If you just look at the scoreline, we got spanked.  If you look at the possession, we dominated it and got nothing to show for it.  Our final ball in the last 3rd is just pathetic.  I don't know why this is - maybe not enough players getting into the box, maybe not enough movement.  Maybe, it was because Villa put 10 men behind the ball and hit us on the break.  But, if we are ever to progress, we have to sort this problem out.  We also have to get another decent striker other than Suarez but that is obvious.

But, the worst thing to come out of it was that it highlighted what a shambles we are defensively.  A better team might have put 6 past us - the fact that we lost 3 to the likes of Villa is just totally demoralizing.  I'm not going to single players out although I will say that we really feel the impact of Enrique being out in terms of our defense.  But, him coming back won't solve all our problems.  People point to the fact that United are cr@p defensively also and try to say that we can also play this way but fail to notice that they have 3 world class strikers to chose from, better wingers than us and probably a better back 4.  And if United don't sort out their defense, I would put money on their not winning the league this season again.

So, now that the dust has settled and we have been forced to take in the cold reality that we go beaten badly by a bottom half of the table team, where do we go from here?  Well, I'd start by moving GJ up to the right wing and putting Wisdom at RB.  Other than that, we should be getting Enrique back at LB and look a bit more solid.  Lets just hope FSG have some deals in place for the January transfer window (I am praying that we get Huntelaar).  Until then, we need to try to forget the last game and move on.  All that matters is the next 3 points.  Stop shouting your mouth off about things like getting 2nd place - you only look like an idiot when you are brought back down to reality by the likes of Villa.  Lets just concentrate on the next game and forget about the league table.  It doesn't make very good reading this season anyway.

[redoneusa]

I do think we get too negative at times (I am talking about posts in here!). We bossed the game for almost the entire first half, well until they started scoring.

Our critical flaw in this game is two-fold, too predictable - give the ball to Luis and hope he scores. Two- what few chances came our way we failed to put the ball in the back of the next. I honestly think if we had gone in 1 up at the end of the first we would be fine.

Downing was one of the best players for us and its hard to believe I am saying that. Raheem looks knackered and frankly people are starting to mark him closely.

The big hope is the January window, until that time rolls around we will just keep losing games we should win. Certainly not as bad as many fans make it out to be, but we have to fix what we have going on here or buy in for problem areas.

We bought Nuri Sahin in, he plays every so often. Other signings have come in and sit on the fringes. The challenge for BR is can he bring in the necessary quality? There is only so many press conferences where you get the opportunity to recite the same old story.

Brendan needs time and support - I hope he continues to receive it. The club need vital quality in key areas which goes back to the first statement. If both are aligned correctly we will do very well.

The game against Villa won't be the story of our season but the transfer window certainly will help dictate how and where we finish as a club.

[edge]

Irrational hatred?  Stoke...

Nothing irrational about that, mate.

[Timbo's Goals]

What can you say?

For 25 minutes or so it really was men against boys.

At times the gulf in class between the two sides had me squirming for them. It was way way too easy and I think most of the fans myself included and the whole team felt that a win was a mere formality.

But as ever seems to be the case these days as you reflect later on what went on you realise that all the time our entire emphasis seems to be more on dominating possession than ensuring the ball ends up in the opposition net. Which simply has to be the object of the exercise whichever way you wish to dress it up. At the crucial times our approach play lacks the composure and intelligence required.

And in that regard we rely these days - with the odd exception - on some piece of magic or trickery from Luis. Yet on Saturday, as the half wore on, the usual Suarez mixture of genius and sloppy was erring more towards the latter than usual. His concentration and focus possibly dulled by the ease in which we were outplaying them? Or the week off? Who knows?

His pass behind Gerrard after Joe Allen had superbly forced the error and fed him in on the break was a fuckin disgrace . Sloppy beyond words. Any one of the three blind mice could have delivered it. The other fuck up between him and Shelvey too. They were two cert goals. Certs. Yet both yielded fuck all other than the inevitable frustration that marks being a Red these days plus begrudged applause for a fine opposition tackle for the second opportunity, a tackle which should never have been allowed to materialise. Then the genius with his incredible long diagonal ball to find Gerrard. Another pretty sure fire opportunity this time frustrated by Gerrard's own diminishing sharpness and precise control in such danger areas.

Increasingly, nobody was busting a gut in the areas that mattered. Nobody was using their nous. Opportunities to create opportunities were being squandered right left and centre by stupid unimaginative final passes and final crosses. Johnson in decent positions to create openings put in four - FOUR - overhit or misdirected balls in the space of several minutes. One or two can be forgiven but FOUR on the bounce!! What the fuck!

Is it that they were all thinking to themselves 'this is ridiculously easy' and so that sharp focus which is perhaps a vital part of such final goal producing manouevres goes missing? I don't fuckin know. I just fuckin despair when I see it. Time after time.

And then you glance over to the clock in the corner and the doubts begin to emerge. And then lo and fuckin behold our saviour Luis fucks up with an attempted piece of trickery just inside his own half that for which he deserves stringing up by his fuckin teeth.

And by half time you're two nil down and thinking how the fuck. Then a few minutes after half time the two Joes - why no Suso? - deliver their Chrissie pressie to the wrong fuckin set of fans and somehow, some fuckin way against a team that for a huge chunk of the time had held on for grim death we are three goals down and facing a week of gnashing teeth and cat kicking.

Fuck.