Author Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here  (Read 174153 times)

Offline Mahern

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #240 on: February 4, 2014, 01:38:42 am »
Ding ding ding. The reason they won't get done is that.

Firms do it all the time for tax avoidance type stuff - just hire the accountants who helped draft the policies, so they can circumvent them.

A few billion $$$ is a drop in the ocean to them yes. But they're a democracy are Norway. And a well run country who put their oil money into investment projects all over the world via that SWF. The middle east ones also invest all over of course, but they're not democracies, but autocratic regimes - if the Sheikhs want to blow a few billion on a football club then they don't have to answer to anyone. Norway's SWF would probably have a lot to answer for if they were seen to be wasting money like that though.

Yes, you're right of course, just chose this to illustrate. My point is that clubs like City, PSG or whoever are only relevant for so long as there is noone willing to outspend. FFP won't stop this, and shouldn't stop intelligently run clubs from being competitive. It's just that in football, there aren't that many intelligently run clubs.

Offline Beninger

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #241 on: February 4, 2014, 01:58:01 am »
So what is the actual argument from Martin Samuel there?  "Chelsea did it too..."  Thanks for pointing out Jose's hypocrisy, as if we've never seen it before.  Poor defense of City's spending...
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #242 on: February 4, 2014, 02:10:08 am »
What if they kick you out of the Champions League for pissing all over FFP?
Highly unlikely I believe as we engage quite closely with UEFA and check everything with them. That's the advantage of having someone like Ferran Soriano as CEO, who knows his way around Nyon. Also I'm told they have indicated that there will be a light touch at least this year. If clubs continue to ignore the regulations then they'll take firmer action (unless it's PSG where Platini's son works of course).

But if they did, we'd probably kill FFP in court as City's legal advice is apparently that it would fail a court test. If we did that and succeeded then we can spend whatever we want so UEFA's best hope to keep FFP intact is not to piss us off. It's not inconceivable that there's a concordat that we will comply and not do anything stupid if they don't. Also, as I posted, their own benchmarking report showed that FFP is having a significant impact so they'd want to keep it going for that reason as well.

That's why, as long as we meet it in the immediate future, they won't rock the boat. The worst they would impose is a fine or a suspended sanction. But I'm confident our owners have done their homework.
« Last Edit: February 4, 2014, 02:12:15 am by ManchesterBlue »

Offline BazC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #243 on: February 4, 2014, 02:23:42 am »
To be fair, in terms of "legalities", it's UEFA's competition isn't it? If things get tense and and they start prodding City, then City get a bit uppity because they're not following the spirit of the rules but according to the letter of the law, it's fine... then what's stopping UEFA just drafting another set of rules that just exclude City anyway?

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Offline Beninger

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #244 on: February 4, 2014, 02:38:03 am »
What is the specific law they could pull up?  I'd be interested in knowing how they think they could win.  Further more, couldn't they simply dispute it now if they were so sure of winning?  I would assume that if they were sure of themselves, they'd just pull UEFA up on it now.  Seems Chelsea aren't trying to play that game either.  I suppose if they start slipping down the table in future seasons somehow, they may try their luck and try and call UEFA's bluff...
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Offline Something Awful

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #245 on: February 4, 2014, 09:59:04 pm »
Highly unlikely I believe as we engage quite closely with UEFA and check everything with them. That's the advantage of having someone like Ferran Soriano as CEO, who knows his way around Nyon. Also I'm told they have indicated that there will be a light touch at least this year. If clubs continue to ignore the regulations then they'll take firmer action (unless it's PSG where Platini's son works of course).

But if they did, we'd probably kill FFP in court as City's legal advice is apparently that it would fail a court test. If we did that and succeeded then we can spend whatever we want so UEFA's best hope to keep FFP intact is not to piss us off. It's not inconceivable that there's a concordat that we will comply and not do anything stupid if they don't. Also, as I posted, their own benchmarking report showed that FFP is having a significant impact so they'd want to keep it going for that reason as well.

That's why, as long as we meet it in the immediate future, they won't rock the boat. The worst they would impose is a fine or a suspended sanction. But I'm confident our owners have done their homework.

But you admit you're pissing all over it, right?

The thing that bugs me is that they make a rule and then a court can overturn it. Why not do that in every sport? Ferrari lose a race and say "we've got a car with a nuclear reactor in it, why can't we use it? we're gonna sue!" or an NFL team goes over the salary cap and sues because a salary cap isn't fair.
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Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #246 on: February 4, 2014, 10:03:17 pm »
I think a nuclear reactor would be too heavy to put in a car mate.
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Offline SP

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #247 on: February 4, 2014, 10:10:50 pm »
I think a nuclear reactor would be too heavy to put in a car mate.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #248 on: February 4, 2014, 10:12:06 pm »
I was gonna put Flubber but I didn't want to be unrealistic.
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Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #249 on: February 5, 2014, 10:06:02 pm »

The Financial Fair Play concept is flawed from the beginning. Another ridiculous attempt by UEFA to reinvent the wheel. American professional sports (like basketball) have found the right formula to level the playing field a long time ago, and it is called Salary Cap. Limit the amount that the football clubs are allowed to pay their players in terms of wages, and you have a fair competition.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #250 on: February 5, 2014, 10:13:51 pm »
The Financial Fair Play concept is flawed from the beginning. Another ridiculous attempt by UEFA to reinvent the wheel. American professional sports (like basketball) have found the right formula to level the playing field a long time ago, and it is called Salary Cap. Limit the amount that the football clubs are allowed to pay their players in terms of wages, and you have a fair competition.

Really? As in NFL the payroll between the teams ranges from $28m to $69m. In MLB it ranges from just over $24m all the way up to $229m, with a $70m gap between 1st and 3rd teams. They also have the draft process which massively helps create a fairer system which couldn't work in football.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #251 on: February 5, 2014, 10:17:33 pm »
I seriously do not think a salary cap would work, if these petro dollar clubs are minipulating the FFP rules right now i could see them paying players  extra money in off shore accounts and hiding it from the uefa accounting if it came to a salary cap.
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Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #252 on: February 5, 2014, 10:28:35 pm »
Really? As in NFL the payroll between the teams ranges from $28m to $69m. In MLB it ranges from just over $24m all the way up to $229m, with a $70m gap between 1st and 3rd teams. They also have the draft process which massively helps create a fairer system which couldn't work in football.

That is why I have specifically mentioned basketball, who have by far the best balanced model. I especially like their Luxury Tax, where the clubs that are paying their players over the limit are being penalized on the dollar-for-dollar basis, with the tax money going to the clubs that are under the limit. Imagine the likes of Man City paying £50 million or even 100 million every season to the rest of the Premier League because they are over the limit.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2014, 10:30:37 pm by Macedonian Red Reborn »
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Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #253 on: February 5, 2014, 10:30:15 pm »
I seriously do not think a salary cap would work, if these petro dollar clubs are minipulating the FFP rules right now i could see them paying players  extra money in off shore accounts and hiding it from the uefa accounting if it came to a salary cap.

That is always possible, but if the penalty is expelling the club from the Premier League, they would think twice before doing it.
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Offline RoshanA

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #254 on: February 5, 2014, 10:32:53 pm »
So what's the latest on City?

When will we get some clarification if all these deals and sponsorships pass the test?

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #255 on: February 5, 2014, 10:36:47 pm »
That is why I have specifically mentioned basketball, who have by far the best balanced model. I especially like their Luxury Tax, where the clubs that are paying their players over the limit are being penalized on the dollar-for-dollar basis, with the tax money going to the clubs that are under the limit. Imagine the likes of Man City paying £50 million or even 100 million every season to the rest of the Premier League because they are over the limit.

Even in NBA they allow a 20% (approx) overspend before imposing the luxury tax. And even then the richest clubs don't particular care about paying it, and the lower teams are happy to take it yet doesn't really go much to improve them as can't go above the salary cap without being taxed themselves.

Offline SP

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #256 on: February 5, 2014, 10:46:40 pm »
The NBA has no real competition as a league. Unlike American sports football is international. I don't see a practical solution being implemented every where.

Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #257 on: February 5, 2014, 10:47:56 pm »
Even in NBA they allow a 20% (approx) overspend before imposing the luxury tax. And even then the richest clubs don't particular care about paying it, and the lower teams are happy to take it yet doesn't really go much to improve them as can't go above the salary cap without being taxed themselves.

Yes, but the system allows the clubs from the smaller markets like Miami, San Antonio or Oklahoma City to compete with the big boys from New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. It is not the perfect system, but it levels the playing field much better than the ridiculous FFP rules introduced by UEFA.

Lets say, for the sake of the debate, that the Premier League introduces a salary cap at £100 million. What clubs would benefit the most from such a decision? Clubs like LFC, Arsenal, Tottenham and Everton. The big spenders like Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd would still be allowed to spend ridiculous amounts of money on wages, but in this case they will have to pay additional tax money to the rest of the league, effectively making their own opposition stronger every season.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #258 on: February 5, 2014, 11:04:15 pm »
I seriously do not think a salary cap would work, if these petro dollar clubs are minipulating the FFP rules right now i could see them paying players  extra money in off shore accounts and hiding it from the uefa accounting if it came to a salary cap.

The players would get done for Tax evasion
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #259 on: February 6, 2014, 12:01:46 am »
But you admit you're pissing all over it, right?

The thing that bugs me is that they make a rule and then a court can overturn it. Why not do that in every sport? Ferrari lose a race and say "we've got a car with a nuclear reactor in it, why can't we use it? we're gonna sue!" or an NFL team goes over the salary cap and sues because a salary cap isn't fair.
Sorry I've not been ignoring you but been busy with a potential client (which seems to have been successful) for a couple of days. I wish people would stop using emotive language like "pissing all over it". We aren't. The club have made it clear they intend to comply and this financial year will, I believe, be the year that we genuinely break even. That's the stated intention of FFP and it's in ours and UEFA's interest that we're seen to abide by the rules.

This year, I've already said, we've clearly been a bit clever in how we meet the break-even requirement in a way that avoids sanctions. But I don't believe we've done anything illegal or immoral but done two transactions that are a means to an end. As I've tried to explain, the sale of IP rights to related parties is something that we would have done anyway as a Cost Sharing Arrangement is the accepted standard for managing IP in multi-national companies. There's talk of Arsenal possibly setting up an MLS franchise and you can be assured they'll do a CSA if they do. But the value of these things have to be justified to the tax authorities and I'm sure they will have been valued very carefully.

This left a shortfall, mainly because of Mancini's sacking and the £30m payoff to him and his staff. Without that, we wouldn't have needed to sell the marketing rights but it was a straighforward way of raising money quickly. We've sold something we own that we aren't going to get revenue for. I'm surethe owners would have preferred not to do it but they had little choice if they were going to meet FFP, which is the object of the exercise. We could have funnelled money in the back door, via a convenient sponsorship or some other arrangement which never saw the light of day but we didn't. We did something that we had to declare in our accounts.

I'm sure we are one club that UEFA will have a good look at but will people accept everything is OK if they say it is?

To change the subject, I had a look at the NFL finances about a year ago and compared them to the PL. In 2012, the Dallas Cowboys had revenue equivalent to about £325m (which was about the same as United's in 2011). Both of them had the highest revenue in the respective leagues. The Cowboys were by far the biggest earners with the second highest being the Patriots at £245m. At the bottom of the NFL revenue league were the then Oakland Raiders, with £145m.

In contrast, the second highest PL revenues came from Arsenal with £256m and lowest earning PL club reported revenues of about £50m (compared to United's £330m). If we take out the Cowboys and United, to avoid distortion, the second highest earning PL club earned 3.3 times what the lowest earned. In the NFL it was just over half that.

In the PL, the Cowboys would have won something or come very close to it. Yet they didn't even win the NFC East division (they were third out of the four clubs). In the last 10 years, they've only gotten to the real play-offs (excluding the wild-card games) twice so it's clearly not just revenue alone that makes the difference but presumably the wage cap and the draft. We obviously can't reproduce the draft (slthough there are possibilities for limiting transfer spending) but we already know there's a high correlation between wage bills and success so levelling the playing field would have to involve some sort of salary restriction. UEFA already recommend a higher limit of 70% salaries to turnover so would that be fair? The PL's version is quite cute, involving a restriction on increases unless supported by increased commercial income (which they should have restricted to say 50%)

The other alternative is to levelling the playing field is to resume the revenue sharing agreement for match-day revenues. United & Arsenal pull in about £4m a game. If they had to give £1m of that to their opponents every home game that might make a difference, particulalry now that gate receipts are sometimes the smallest of the three main income streams.

Offline owens_2k

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #260 on: February 6, 2014, 06:26:41 pm »
Sorry I've not been ignoring you but been busy with a potential client (which seems to have been successful) for a couple of days. I wish people would stop using emotive language like "pissing all over it". We aren't. The club have made it clear they intend to comply and this financial year will, I believe, be the year that we genuinely break even. That's the stated intention of FFP and it's in ours and UEFA's interest that we're seen to abide by the rules.

This year, I've already said, we've clearly been a bit clever in how we meet the break-even requirement in a way that avoids sanctions. But I don't believe we've done anything illegal or immoral but done two transactions that are a means to an end. As I've tried to explain, the sale of IP rights to related parties is something that we would have done anyway as a Cost Sharing Arrangement is the accepted standard for managing IP in multi-national companies. There's talk of Arsenal possibly setting up an MLS franchise and you can be assured they'll do a CSA if they do. But the value of these things have to be justified to the tax authorities and I'm sure they will have been valued very carefully.

This left a shortfall, mainly because of Mancini's sacking and the £30m payoff to him and his staff. Without that, we wouldn't have needed to sell the marketing rights but it was a straighforward way of raising money quickly. We've sold something we own that we aren't going to get revenue for. I'm surethe owners would have preferred not to do it but they had little choice if they were going to meet FFP, which is the object of the exercise. We could have funnelled money in the back door, via a convenient sponsorship or some other arrangement which never saw the light of day but we didn't. We did something that we had to declare in our accounts.

I'm sure we are one club that UEFA will have a good look at but will people accept everything is OK if they say it is?

To change the subject, I had a look at the NFL finances about a year ago and compared them to the PL. In 2012, the Dallas Cowboys had revenue equivalent to about £325m (which was about the same as United's in 2011). Both of them had the highest revenue in the respective leagues. The Cowboys were by far the biggest earners with the second highest being the Patriots at £245m. At the bottom of the NFL revenue league were the then Oakland Raiders, with £145m.

In contrast, the second highest PL revenues came from Arsenal with £256m and lowest earning PL club reported revenues of about £50m (compared to United's £330m). If we take out the Cowboys and United, to avoid distortion, the second highest earning PL club earned 3.3 times what the lowest earned. In the NFL it was just over half that.

In the PL, the Cowboys would have won something or come very close to it. Yet they didn't even win the NFC East division (they were third out of the four clubs). In the last 10 years, they've only gotten to the real play-offs (excluding the wild-card games) twice so it's clearly not just revenue alone that makes the difference but presumably the wage cap and the draft. We obviously can't reproduce the draft (slthough there are possibilities for limiting transfer spending) but we already know there's a high correlation between wage bills and success so levelling the playing field would have to involve some sort of salary restriction. UEFA already recommend a higher limit of 70% salaries to turnover so would that be fair? The PL's version is quite cute, involving a restriction on increases unless supported by increased commercial income (which they should have restricted to say 50%)

The other alternative is to levelling the playing field is to resume the revenue sharing agreement for match-day revenues. United & Arsenal pull in about £4m a game. If they had to give £1m of that to their opponents every home game that might make a difference, particulalry now that gate receipts are sometimes the smallest of the three main income streams.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #261 on: February 6, 2014, 08:02:13 pm »
That is why I have specifically mentioned basketball, who have by far the best balanced model. I especially like their Luxury Tax, where the clubs that are paying their players over the limit are being penalized on the dollar-for-dollar basis, with the tax money going to the clubs that are under the limit. Imagine the likes of Man City paying £50 million or even 100 million every season to the rest of the Premier League because they are over the limit.
In baseball they have a luxury tax ,and it does not stop the yankees who exceed the limit every season,they pay it and still spend every off  season, last years luxury tax for the yankees was 29 million dollars who for the yankees who print money it's like pocket change.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #262 on: February 6, 2014, 08:52:10 pm »
You should be a politician.
Is that a polite way of saying I'm good at bullshitting?  ;)

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #263 on: February 21, 2014, 05:21:56 am »
http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/06/fair-play-for-fenway/

This is a very good description  of how FFP will work, the best and easiest to follow that I have read.  Since players are treated on the books like fixed assets that depreciated/amortise over the length of their contract, selling players 'at a profit on the books' won't be difficult.  Where clubs like City will run into problems is if their wage bill is too high a percentage of revenue.   This can be offset, to a certain extent, by the sale of a star player (like Chelsea just did) for a massive profit (in accounting terms anyway) but I don't think that is a long term solution.  The only long term solution these clubs have is to increase revenues in some way (at the moment, that involves dodgy sponsorship deals). 

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #264 on: February 21, 2014, 10:49:58 am »
Sorry I've not been ignoring you but been busy with a potential client (which seems to have been successful) for a couple of days. I wish people would stop using emotive language like "pissing all over it". We aren't. The club have made it clear they intend to comply and this financial year will, I believe, be the year that we genuinely break even. That's the stated intention of FFP and it's in ours and UEFA's interest that we're seen to abide by the rules.

This year, I've already said, we've clearly been a bit clever in how we meet the break-even requirement in a way that avoids sanctions. But I don't believe we've done anything illegal or immoral but done two transactions that are a means to an end. As I've tried to explain, the sale of IP rights to related parties is something that we would have done anyway as a Cost Sharing Arrangement is the accepted standard for managing IP in multi-national companies. There's talk of Arsenal possibly setting up an MLS franchise and you can be assured they'll do a CSA if they do. But the value of these things have to be justified to the tax authorities and I'm sure they will have been valued very carefully.

This left a shortfall, mainly because of Mancini's sacking and the £30m payoff to him and his staff. Without that, we wouldn't have needed to sell the marketing rights but it was a straighforward way of raising money quickly. We've sold something we own that we aren't going to get revenue for. I'm surethe owners would have preferred not to do it but they had little choice if they were going to meet FFP, which is the object of the exercise. We could have funnelled money in the back door, via a convenient sponsorship or some other arrangement which never saw the light of day but we didn't. We did something that we had to declare in our accounts.

I'm sure we are one club that UEFA will have a good look at but will people accept everything is OK if they say it is?

To change the subject, I had a look at the NFL finances about a year ago and compared them to the PL. In 2012, the Dallas Cowboys had revenue equivalent to about £325m (which was about the same as United's in 2011). Both of them had the highest revenue in the respective leagues. The Cowboys were by far the biggest earners with the second highest being the Patriots at £245m. At the bottom of the NFL revenue league were the then Oakland Raiders, with £145m.

In contrast, the second highest PL revenues came from Arsenal with £256m and lowest earning PL club reported revenues of about £50m (compared to United's £330m). If we take out the Cowboys and United, to avoid distortion, the second highest earning PL club earned 3.3 times what the lowest earned. In the NFL it was just over half that.

In the PL, the Cowboys would have won something or come very close to it. Yet they didn't even win the NFC East division (they were third out of the four clubs). In the last 10 years, they've only gotten to the real play-offs (excluding the wild-card games) twice so it's clearly not just revenue alone that makes the difference but presumably the wage cap and the draft. We obviously can't reproduce the draft (slthough there are possibilities for limiting transfer spending) but we already know there's a high correlation between wage bills and success so levelling the playing field would have to involve some sort of salary restriction. UEFA already recommend a higher limit of 70% salaries to turnover so would that be fair? The PL's version is quite cute, involving a restriction on increases unless supported by increased commercial income (which they should have restricted to say 50%)

The other alternative is to levelling the playing field is to resume the revenue sharing agreement for match-day revenues. United & Arsenal pull in about £4m a game. If they had to give £1m of that to their opponents every home game that might make a difference, particulalry now that gate receipts are sometimes the smallest of the three main income streams.

This is a great example of cherry picking examples to suit your own bias and making a bad analogy.

A more apt analogy would be the Champions League is like the NFL playoffs.

The Dallas Cowboys are like Manchester City.

You have had one of the most expensive squads and biggest spend in Europe yet only got out of the CL group  stages once and have won nothing in Europe. Your  one PL victory is more equivalent to the Dallas Cowboys winning the NFC East in the NFL than it is to winning the Super Bowl which would be the CL. So your  whole post is really just biased spin.

It would be interesting if the Champions League had a salary cap. One thing interesting about the NFL is the NE Patriots. Tom Brady, possibly the best quarterback of all time repeatedly took pay cuts and contract restructuring to allow the Patriots to sign top quality players and remain under the salary cap. I wonder how many of Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, RVP,  Robben, Ribery,  Bale, Aguero, Toure, Kompany would  take pay cuts to allow their team to sign better players under a salary cap
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 10:51:57 am by chilongooner »

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2014, 11:04:36 am »
It would be interesting if the Champions League had a salary cap. One thing interesting about the NFL is the NE Patriots. Tom Brady, possibly the best quarterback of all time repeatedly took pay cuts and contract restructuring to allow the Patriots to sign top quality players and remain under the salary cap. I wonder how many of Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, RVP,  Robben, Ribery,  Bale, Aguero, Toure, Kompany would  take pay cuts to allow their team to sign better players under a salary cap

Thats a really bad example given that Brady hasn't taken a pay cut but more allowed Patriots to change his contract so more is paid in a bonus rather than his base salary. He was due to earn $19.5m over 2013 and 2014 and instead will earn $33m so not really much of a paycut but creative accounting.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #266 on: February 24, 2014, 02:18:21 am »

It would be interesting if the Champions League had a salary cap. One thing interesting about the NFL is the NE Patriots. Tom Brady, possibly the best quarterback of all time repeatedly took pay cuts and contract restructuring to allow the Patriots to sign top quality players and remain under the salary cap. I wonder how many of Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, RVP,  Robben, Ribery,  Bale, Aguero, Toure, Kompany would  take pay cuts to allow their team to sign better players under a salary cap

How would you apply a salary cap across so many different volatile currencies?
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Offline TarkaLFC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #267 on: February 24, 2014, 07:56:38 am »
Have all contracts registered with UEFA and nominally paid in Euros.  (Frottage would scream and come out with some entertaining soundbites.)
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #268 on: February 24, 2014, 08:32:23 am »
This year, I've already said, we've clearly been a bit clever in how we meet the break-even requirement in a way that avoids sanctions.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #269 on: February 24, 2014, 01:17:27 pm »
Have all contracts registered with UEFA and nominally paid in Euros.  (Frottage would scream and come out with some entertaining soundbites.)

So players incomes could change massively from month to month?  Don't think they'd go for that.
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Offline carling

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #270 on: February 24, 2014, 01:30:26 pm »
This year, I've already said, we've clearly been a bit clever in how we meet the break-even requirement in a way that avoids sanctions.

So why is this even being discussed.  One way or the other Man City have used Abu Dhabi / Arab money (that's directly or indirectly been made through oil), to buy lots of very expensive players and pay crazy high wages.  What you have done over the last few years clearly hasn't been what anyone would describe as 'financial fair play', so I don't see why anyone cares if you somehow meet whatever arbitrary rules UEFA has put in place to support this farce.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #271 on: February 24, 2014, 07:18:50 pm »
Sorry I've not been ignoring you but been busy with a potential client (which seems to have been successful) for a couple of days. I wish people would stop using emotive language like "pissing all over it". We aren't. The club have made it clear they intend to comply and this financial year will, I believe, be the year that we genuinely break even. That's the stated intention of FFP and it's in ours and UEFA's interest that we're seen to abide by the rules.

Didn't your owners basically sponsor a random bit of manchester for you in order to get you to 'comply' with all this stuff, so you can see why people would choose to use emotive language when talking about the antics of your lot or chelsea.


Quote
To change the subject, I had a look at the NFL finances about a year ago and compared them to the PL. In 2012, the Dallas Cowboys had revenue equivalent to about £325m (which was about the same as United's in 2011). Both of them had the highest revenue in the respective leagues. The Cowboys were by far the biggest earners with the second highest being the Patriots at £245m. At the bottom of the NFL revenue league were the then Oakland Raiders, with £145m.

In contrast, the second highest PL revenues came from Arsenal with £256m and lowest earning PL club reported revenues of about £50m (compared to United's £330m). If we take out the Cowboys and United, to avoid distortion, the second highest earning PL club earned 3.3 times what the lowest earned. In the NFL it was just over half that.

In the PL, the Cowboys would have won something or come very close to it. Yet they didn't even win the NFC East division (they were third out of the four clubs). In the last 10 years, they've only gotten to the real play-offs (excluding the wild-card games) twice so it's clearly not just revenue alone that makes the difference but presumably the wage cap and the draft. We obviously can't reproduce the draft (slthough there are possibilities for limiting transfer spending) but we already know there's a high correlation between wage bills and success so levelling the playing field would have to involve some sort of salary restriction. UEFA already recommend a higher limit of 70% salaries to turnover so would that be fair? The PL's version is quite cute, involving a restriction on increases unless supported by increased commercial income (which they should have restricted to say 50%)

The most obvious flaw with comparing the PL with the NFL are the lack of a draft and the penalties for being relegated, those two differences just make things too different for direct comparisons to be anything other than justifying things.


Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #272 on: March 10, 2014, 11:51:30 pm »
Do you get it yet?

Not really, how does pasting less than half of two separate documents establish my failure to 'understand' one of them?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #273 on: March 11, 2014, 01:37:28 am »
Why is there a Manchester City fan in here defending the clubs actions? The regulations are shite and they are exploiting loopholes that shouldn't exist, which is a shame. The whole thing is a complete sham.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #274 on: March 11, 2014, 01:59:55 am »
Why is there a Manchester City fan in here defending the clubs actions? The regulations are shite and they are exploiting loopholes that shouldn't exist, which is a shame. The whole thing is a complete sham.

Because "developments" can also mean "endless bickering" apparently.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #275 on: March 11, 2014, 02:26:38 am »
Why is there a Manchester City fan in here defending the clubs actions? The regulations are shite and they are exploiting loopholes that shouldn't exist, which is a shame. The whole thing is a complete sham.

Well, everyone tries to justify their own actions and paint themselves in a good light. Actually, when I hear City/Chelsea fans defend their club's actions, I always think they are trying to convince themselves rather than anyone else. Deep down, Manchester City fans know full well that their club is nothing more than a PR exercise by tyrants. It will all feel very hollow to them, they'll celebrate the trophies but there will always be a nagging feeling of unease. They'd never admit any of this, of course.

Agree about FFP. Complete farce.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #276 on: March 26, 2014, 02:22:15 pm »
L'Equipe is claiming that PSG were 'arrogant' and 'less convincing than Manchester City' (would think PSG's attempts to backdate stuff was just that little bit too obvious) when dealing with UEFA's enquiries about their sponsorships. Suggests punishment of some sort is a real possibility, though does stress that the range of punishments possible is very wide. Lot of pressure coming from Germany with Rumenigge now the one doing the noisemaking - presumably because Hoeness is very busy sorting out his own financial fair play arrangements.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #277 on: March 26, 2014, 02:27:51 pm »
The Footballers Football show on Sky today is worth watching; all about the ramifications of FFP, but more besides.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #278 on: March 26, 2014, 02:31:21 pm »
L'Equipe is claiming that PSG were 'arrogant' and 'less convincing than Manchester City' (would think PSG's attempts to backdate stuff was just that little bit too obvious) when dealing with UEFA's enquiries about their sponsorships. Suggests punishment of some sort is a real possibility, though does stress that the range of punishments possible is very wide. Lot of pressure coming from Germany with Rumenigge now the one doing the noisemaking - presumably because Hoeness is very busy sorting out his own financial fair play arrangements.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/paris-st-germain/10724107/PSG-in-danger-of-being-in-breach-of-Uefas-FFP-regulations-over-sponsorship-deal-with-Qatar-Tourism-Authority.html
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