Topic: Pep Guardiola at Bayern Munich

[Yiannis]

By the way, Martinez at CB, was it a thing before Pep joined them or he made him so?

I remember the CL final and their midfield 2 was Martinez and Schweinsteiger.

[GregCharrua]

By the way, Martinez at CB, was it a thing before Pep joined them or he made him so?

I remember the CL final and their midfield 2 was Martinez and Schweinsteiger.

Martinez played at CB under Bielsa at Bilbao before going to Bayern. Bielsa moved him out of midfield.

[Yiannis]

Martinez played at CB under Bielsa at Bilbao before going to Bayern. Bielsa moved him out of midfield.

Ah thanks.  Now you mentioned it,  I remember a bit of him playing at the back. Love some Bielsa even though he didn't progress as I expected him to have.  Crazy fella too.

[Xxavi]

That's not true is it?  In the book "Pep Confidential" one of the Bayern directors are on record as saying he was brought there to change the style of football that they were playing.  I'd say that he's been pretty successful with his primary objective. 

This is the story of fine margins. Bayern directors were in awe of Pep's Barca and his football. They witnessed it first hand when Barca demolished Bayern Munich 4-0. So when the possibility of signing Pep arose, they didn't hesitate for a moment, they sacked their manager who didn't win the league or CL the previous year (Heynckess). They basically unceremoniously sent him to retirement. And if you go back and read German press reaction, it was like a celebration, it was the high point of German football, that indeed, Bundesliga is becoming an elite league attracting a coach like Guardiola. Nobody seemed to be sorry for Heynckess.

Now the story is different. It is presented as if Pep begged Bayern directors to hire him. That he himself fired the poor old Heynckess, the treble winner. Against the wishes of everybody. Even though he was supposed to change Bayern's football and install his, now, Pep is blamed for getting rid of German identity of football.

How much of this is a reasonable criticism is a valid question. Pep may not have been a success at Bayern, but he most definitely is not a failure either.

[Xxavi]

That's where he lost me too . Heynckes' side would have totally destroyed Pep's side, without a doubt.

This kind of comparison is amateurish, isn't it? Which Heynckes' side would destroy which Pep's side? Pep's Barca in full flow would beat Heynckess' Bayern. Are you comparing Heynckess' Bayern with Pep's Bayern?

If this is the case, I don't know how fair the comparison is. Heynckess didn't manage only 1 season. His career spanned 30 years, why do you pick only 1 team, his strongest as a representative, but you don't afford the same to Pep? Heynckess' Bayern had all of their stars in their prime, the likes of Schweini, Robben and Ribery are either injured or nowhere near to the level they were under Heynckess. So essentially you are ready to ignore the difference in the personnel, things like injuries etc.

Look up the list of teams Heynckess managed, and trophies he won as a manager. And think hard if his trophy list over 30 years compares better to Pep's. If you would like to compare their single best teams, it would be Heynckess' Bayern vs Pep's Barca

[BeautifulGame91]

Er Pep joined Bayern the year after Heynckes won the treble .It's not like he came in after a decade.

If Heynckes had a team in their prime then Guardiola inherited a team in their peak.

Its his fault in the name of tinkering he messed up that team .Prime example by playing two of the best fullbacks repeatedly in Midfield and preferring an average defender like Rafinha at RB.

Ultimately Guardiola failed in Champions league with Bayern simply because he couldn't build a CL winning quality defence despite having 2 of the best full backs in the world and spending nearly 40 mil on a CB

He  won a single away game in their CL knock out games in 3 years.The same Bayern that won 3-1 at Arsenal , 2-0 at Juventus , 3-0 at Barcelona in their run up to CL win .

For me considered Guardiola the best coach in the world after his spell at Barca .But after what happened at Bayern he has a lot to prove whether he is really as good as he seemed at Barca or just another Luis Enrique

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

It's probably a bit harsh but I think he failed at Bayern. Not winning the CL is one thing, not reaching a final however, is pretty damn poor. And yeah, he won the league, but I think that was the bare minimum given the circumstances. Spend way more than their only league competitor. Got both their best players in a short space of time. And like it or not, he took over a side that had done what he could not. When you have the resources bayern do, you can't really use injuries as an excuse. Though, apparently he didn't have full say over transfers, but still, look at the squad he had.

He's judged by ridiculously high standards now. But if you're being argued as one of the best managers of all time, then that's what happens.

[Skeeve]

It's probably a bit harsh but I think he failed at Bayern. Not winning the CL is one thing, not reaching a final however, is pretty damn poor.

I don't think it should even come down to his not getting them to another final.

The issue is more about the manner of their capitulation in 2 out of 3 semis, a narrow loss on aggregate in a semi is one thing, but they were dispatched fairly easily by Real and then Barca, the former coming only a year after they had dismantled Barca on their way to their CL win.

[Realdidi]

Amazing how the English press have already started painting him as a failure at Bayern, probably be completely different story if he was going anywhere other then an English club


[You may have an iPhone but you are still using the free version of Tapatalk and spamming us with that knowledge]

[Flaccido Dongingo]

He's inherited sides and tweaked them, for the better at Barcelona, for the worse at Bayern, not doubting his coaching credentials, but he has to build a team at Man City, a challenge he has arguably never faced.

[CHOPPER]

He's inherited sides and tweaked them, for the better at Barcelona, for the worse at Bayern, not doubting his coaching credentials, but he has to build a team at Man City, a challenge he has arguably never faced.

I was told once in here, he totally turned them around and re-structured Barcelona and was the absolute architect of where they are now(or words to that effect).

For me, managers are like their teams - they are only as good as their last game, or season. Ergo, Guardiola is a successful manager, who failed in his primary target. Clear as mud eh!

[The North Bank]

I was told once in here, he totally turned them around and re-structured Barcelona and was the absolute architect of where they are now(or words to that effect).

For me, managers are like their teams - they are only as good as their last game, or season. Ergo, Guardiola is a successful manager, who failed in his primary target. Clear as mud eh!

Pep is so special he can't be measured by trophies, if Bayern win the treble next season, its because pep laid the foundations for their success. If they win nothing next season its because pep made them better than they were. And it doesn't matter if Bayern stopped getting to CL finals when he joined, because now they have midfielders playing at centre back and can make 800 short passes a game. True football scholars appreciate pep, the rest haven't got a clue.

[Samie]

Some say he was the true mastermind behind Johan Cruyff's revolution at Barcelona. And ole' Johan was the puppet.

[Doc Red]

Sorry but this idea that Guardiola sticks to the same philosophy is just not true.

Thank you. Those diagonal long balls in the box for flick-ons apparently didn't happen at Bayern.

The diagonal long ball is a new tactic, it's not a new philosophy.
He still favours possession, possession, possession, and passing, passing, passing, with the added wrinkle of a long ball.
He hasn't suddenly turned his back on his Barca/Dutch influenced philosophy of technical players, movement, space, possession, and still seems to love the challenge of playing players in positions most wouldn't have imagined.

I don't think anyone can look at the way Bayern play today, and compare it to how he set up Barca, and think to themselves that there's nothing in common with how he sets up stall.

[BobPaisley3]

I'm sure he'll be an interested spectator tonight.

[Shaved Crossbar]

I was told once in here, he totally turned them around and re-structured Barcelona and was the absolute architect of where they are now(or words to that effect).

You were told correctly.

Well maybe not the absolute architect crap

[Shaved Crossbar]

Pep is so special he can't be measured by trophies, if Bayern win the treble next season, its because pep laid the foundations for their success. If they win nothing next season its because pep made them better than they were. And it doesn't matter if Bayern stopped getting to CL finals when he joined, because now they have midfielders playing at centre back and can make 800 short passes a game. True football scholars appreciate pep, the rest haven't got a clue.

It's fine that you don't appreciate some Barca fans and self-professed 'football scholars' waxing lyrical about his footballing philosophy, but Pep betters nearly all managers in conventional managerial strengths too (game management, squad management, motivational ability etc).

[Shaved Crossbar]

The diagonal long ball is a new tactic, it's not a new philosophy.
He still favours possession, possession, possession, and passing, passing, passing, with the added wrinkle of a long ball.
He hasn't suddenly turned his back on his Barca/Dutch influenced philosophy of technical players, movement, space, possession, and still seems to love the challenge of playing players in positions most wouldn't have imagined.

To the contrary, this season has been pretty straightforward from Pep. The only player playing in a surprising position was Kimmich the emergency CB (who excelled), sometimes his fullbacks in a back three. Crossing, and deep crossing, has been an extremely important aspect of Bayern's play, with Lewandowski's traditional #9 strengths used to great effect, whether that be through his headers and knockdowns for late runs (see Thiago, Vidal), or giving him Muller as a strike partner. None of these were ever utilised at Barca, other than cut backs from Pedro and the fullbacks inside the box, and the long balls that you've mentioned already have been important too. There's been more long shots than a typical Pep team either, and whilst riding Douglas in the first half of the season, they were also lightning on the counter and direct. Pep doesn't really stick to a certain strategy, they'll play long balls when they need to and then they could completely ignore them for the next 10 games.

So while he hasn't turned his back on the Cruyffian roots, he's definitely added more strings to Bayern's bow and Bayern do a lot more of the bread-and-butter crossing, countering, long balls, 'English' style of play, if you were.

[Doc Red]

It's fine that you don't appreciate some Barca fans and self-professed 'football scholars' waxing lyrical about his footballing philosophy, but Pep betters nearly all managers in conventional managerial strengths too (game management, squad management, motivational ability etc).

That's the whole crux of the discussions on Pep, how can we say that for sure, if he consistently manages teams with the best squads in their respective countries (and among the best 3 in Europe)? We'll need more than two managerial reigns at Barca and Bayern before bestowing the "bestest manager ever" on Pep.

For instance, how much "squad management ability" is required to manage Bayern, when they've got most of the best players in Germany in their squad, and have arguably the deepest squad in Europe?

[Shaved Crossbar]

That's the whole crux of the discussions on Pep, how can we say that for sure, if he consistently manages teams with the best squads in their respective countries (and among the best 3 in Europe)? We'll need more than two managerial reigns at Barca and Bayern before bestowing the "bestest manager ever" on Pep.

For instance, how much "squad management ability" is required to manage Bayern, when they've got most of the best players in Germany in their squad, and have arguably the deepest squad in Europe?

I wouldn't call him the best manager ever (I'm not qualified), but off his number of CL wins alone, he's up there. Sure it's difficult to highlight his squad management ability (my intended meaning was knowing when to rotate, keep players mentally fresh and ingrained tactically into the playing style without minutes amongst other things) is easier with Bayern and Barca. And even showing off his in-game management skills is easier when you have mentally, physically and tactically versatile players like he's had. But very few in football history, have had success like him, and it can be argued that Pep has shown greater managerial heights solely with a great team than anybody else has. That is to say, in the contest of 'who can take a great bunch of players and get them playing better than anyone else', Pep wins/many would argue that he wins. One argument that's often neglected is how Pep turns players great in the first place.

That's mainly why the next season intrigues me so much. Can Pep apply his methods to the shite players City have right now? Will he impede his own tactical creativity due to his players' shortcomings, how stringently will he adhere to his Barca roots, can he coach sweeper keeping into Hart without ruining Hart, or the team, etc?

[Doc Red]

I wouldn't call him the best manager ever (I'm not qualified), but off his number of CL wins alone, he's up there. Sure it's difficult to highlight his squad management ability (my intended meaning was knowing when to rotate, keep players mentally fresh and ingrained tactically into the playing style without minutes amongst other things) is easier with Bayern and Barca. And even showing off his in-game management skills is easier when you have mentally, physically and tactically versatile players like he's had. But very few in football history, have had success like him, and it can be argued that Pep has shown greater managerial heights solely with a great team than anybody else has. That is to say, in the contest of 'who can take a great bunch of players and get them playing better than anyone else', Pep wins/many would argue that he wins. One argument that's often neglected is how Pep turns players great in the first place.

That's mainly why the next season intrigues me so much. Can Pep apply his methods to the shite players City have right now? Will he impede his own tactical creativity due to his players' shortcomings, how stringently will he adhere to his Barca roots, can he coach sweeper keeping into Hart without ruining Hart, or the team, etc?

Great post.

I'd agree with your first paragraph, though I'd add that he might the best manager of this era, in taking the top squads to the very highest peak they can reach. And if there is a debate, it's probably between Ancelotti and himself (in my opinion, and in this era). Just don't feel that alone qualifies as confirmation that he is the best manager, period.
As for the latter part of your post, Pep's debut managerial season in England might be the most anticipated of any manager (though obviously, we're probably all more eagerly anticipating Klopp's first full season!).

[Mr Dilkington]

The diagonal long ball is a new tactic, it's not a new philosophy.
He still favours possession, possession, possession, and passing, passing, passing, with the added wrinkle of a long ball.
He hasn't suddenly turned his back on his Barca/Dutch influenced philosophy of technical players, movement, space, possession, and still seems to love the challenge of playing players in positions most wouldn't have imagined.

I don't think anyone can look at the way Bayern play today, and compare it to how he set up Barca, and think to themselves that there's nothing in common with how he sets up stall.

They're using the wings a LOT more this season, hardly any of their build up comes through the middle.

[rushyman]

Got lucky tonight old pep

Theyve still got to get a draw or better at Swansea mind.

[ElCapo]

Kinda wishing ManU won to see Pep hang with Voronezh and Bucharest, but alas was not meant to be

[McrRed]

He's never done anything that big sam couldn't do given the chance.

[ArthurDent]

The question for me is how success will be measured for him at City.

City, Chelsea, Arsenal, manu, ourselves all have title winning ambition and possibility. Can we add Spurs to that too now ? And an outsider like Leicester or West Ham ? However you define it, really any team with title ambition has no right to expect more than a couple of titles per decade on average. Given that he only tends to stay for 3 years, he probably needs to win more than 1 title in those 3 years to be considered better than Pellegrini.

Europe is going to be even more difficult - only 4 English CL QF appearances in total over the last 5 seasons means that for whatever reason English football is currently at a low ebb in the CL. Also he takes over a team that has just got to a semi final, so to progress on that there is obviously only one way to go, at least a final appearance will be expected.

If he fulfills on 2 titles plus a CL final or win in 3 years, then I'd say he has done very well, but for me at this stage the jury is still very much out.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Mario Gotze is the number one transfer target for Liverpool this summer and Klopp is prepared to do everything to get him. ‪#‎lfc‬ (Paul Joyce)

#LFC would likely make Gotze one of the highest paid players & the hierarchy are determined to back Klopp's judgement. #lfc (Paul Joyce)

[rscanderlech]

Mario Gotze is the number one transfer target for Liverpool this summer and Klopp is prepared to do everything to get him. ‪#‎lfc‬ (Paul Joyce)

#LFC would likely make Gotze one of the highest paid players & the hierarchy are determined to back Klopp's judgement. #lfc (Paul Joyce)

He would be an amazing signing for us, especially at the price that that the media are mentioning--it would allow us to get another 'marquee' signing.

I don't believe we have anyone in our squad who is 1. as good as he is technically 2. as composed in the final third. So while we already have lots of attacking midfielders, we would just have to sign him. The crazy thing is that because of his contract situation, he can be signed for around the same price as we paid for Markovic!

[Shaved Crossbar]

Whilst no doubt this thread will be locked due to transfer talk as well, maybe one day the mods will just let it go.

As for Gotze, they want him out, we want him in, he should probably want in to us. Not many/any better options and he'll be reunited with the manager and the style of football that made him the best young player on the planet. It would be the biggest signing in our history. We'd still need another wide attacker, and Firmino and Sturridge would rotate a lot of bench time, but that's how you build a good squad.

[rscanderlech]

Whilst no doubt this thread will be locked due to transfer talk as well, maybe one day the mods will just let it go.

As for Gotze, they want him out, we want him in, he should probably want in to us. Not many/any better options and he'll be reunited with the manager and the style of football that made him the best young player on the planet. It would be the biggest signing in our history. We'd still need another wide attacker, and Firmino and Sturridge would rotate a lot of bench time, but that's how you build a good squad.

I think we'll have competition.

I am not an expert on foreign leagues, but I could see Juventus or PSG interested, Dortmund are allegedly interested though their fans are not and I'm sure that at least one or two other PL clubs would be interested.

The Klopp connection might play a big advantage though.

[Redman0151]

I think we'll have competition.

I am not an expert on foreign leagues, but I could see Juventus or PSG interested, Dortmund are allegedly interested though their fans are not and I'm sure that at least one or two other PL clubs would be interested.

The Klopp connection might play a big advantage though.

I doubt Dortmund want him now they have Dembele.

Gotze has been pretty poor at Bayern, but if anybody can get him firing again it's gonna be Klopp isn't it.

Really smells like a real potential "moneyball" deal. If you can get him for £20-25m and then get him back to his best, he'd be worth double that

[Shaved Crossbar]

I think we'll have competition.

I am not an expert on foreign leagues, but I could see Juventus or PSG interested, Dortmund are allegedly interested though their fans are not and I'm sure that at least one or two other PL clubs would be interested.

The Klopp connection might play a big advantage though.

Juventus are in the running according to Kicker, one of the few German sources I trust. PSG is a possiblity but I think they'll go in for James rather than Gotze, and France is a pretty poor career move imo, players should only go there when they're prohibitively expensive or have already toured the nations of Europe.

Really smells like a real potential "moneyball" deal. If you can get him for £20-25m and then get him back to his best, he'd be worth double that

Triple or quadruple. Not that there'd ever be a need to sell him.

[Schmidt]

Whilst no doubt this thread will be locked due to transfer talk as well, maybe one day the mods will just let it go.

As for Gotze, they want him out, we want him in, he should probably want in to us. Not many/any better options and he'll be reunited with the manager and the style of football that made him the best young player on the planet. It would be the biggest signing in our history. We'd still need another wide attacker, and Firmino and Sturridge would rotate a lot of bench time, but that's how you build a good squad.

Hope not, it'd seep into every thread and sidetrack every discussion if they did.

[Shaved Crossbar]

Hope not, it'd seep into every thread and sidetrack every discussion if they did.

Haven't been on RAWK long enough, to be honest. Age-old point of contention I've been told.

[killer-heels]

Is Gotze actually that good? I have only really seen him for Germany and Bayern and he plods about a fair bit. I guess he must have been good for Dortmund all those years ago.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Is Gotze actually that good? I have only really seen him for Germany and Bayern and he plods about a fair bit. I guess he must have been good for Dortmund all those years ago.

Only two years ago he was slotting the winner in a World Cup final.
He was excellent then, the Bayern move didn't work out for him but nothing to suggest he is incapable of returning to his best.

[killer-heels]

Only two years ago he was slotting the winner in a World Cup final.
He was excellent then, the Bayern move didn't work out for him but nothing to suggest he is incapable of returning to his best.

Was he excellent then? He wasnt a regular for them and whilst a world cup winning goal is amazing you didnt see any amazing performances from him. I have seen him a few times but not once has he looked a top player.

Saying that, if Klopp wants him or anyone, thats a good enough reason.

[Xxavi]

Is Gotze actually that good? I have only really seen him for Germany and Bayern and he plods about a fair bit. I guess he must have been good for Dortmund all those years ago.

He was one of the most talented young players in the world at Borussia D. But so was Isco, and some say, so was El Sharaawy. Football is a lot about confidence and determination, if it goes, then the players never look the same. The big question with Gotze is, has he lost his passion, determination and confidence while he sat on Bayern bench accepting his inferiority not only to Muller and Robben, but half-fit Ribery, Coman and truly one-dimensional Douglas Costa (the second half of this season)?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

He's got 50 caps for Germany, at 23, and who as one of the worlds best teams that can't be that shabby.

Mind you, international footy is largely bollocks

Was great for Klopp back at Dortmund, pulled the usual shitbag move to Bayern and suffered under Pep's regime.

[Chakan]

20m for Gotze? Everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.