Topic: Jordan Henderson

[Hazell]

Fletcher could almost score and assist twice as many goals than Lucas and Henderson and Busquests combined but.

[penga]

^Not to mention he plays the defensive role in a 2 man midfield as opposed to 3. Has won titles and United were still able to have one of the best defences in the PL while he was playing.

[Hazell]

It just depends on the system teams use. Team genreally sit deep against Man Utd anyway and other players could cover for Fletcher if he did get forward. No one does that for Liverpool so it's Lucas' role not to get forward too much (though admittedly, when he does get into a shooting position, he seems to fall to pieces) and Busquets' role also doesn't require him to score many - in fact, on occasion, the deeper he gets, the more attacking Barcelona become as he allows the likes of Alves to get forward. You can't judge those types of players by goals (which unfortunately some people do).

[Sangria]

See? It's all about expectations and pigeon holes.

Forward focus, 'hunger in the tackle', hunger to make dangerous pass... ATTACKING MIDFIELDER... DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER...

We'd be better off defining what we expect from a midfielder.

Raises hand...

[penga]

It just depends on the system teams use. Team genreally sit deep against Man Utd anyway and other players could cover for Fletcher if he did get forward. No one does that for Liverpool so it's Lucas' role not to get forward too much (though admittedly, when he does get into a shooting position, he seems to fall to pieces) and Busquets' role also doesn't require him to score many - in fact, on occasion, the deeper he gets, the more attacking Barcelona become as he allows the likes of Alves to get forward. You can't judge those types of players by goals (which unfortunately some people do).

Ye but I don't believe you can carry 2 players in the midfield who give you so little end product return (especially when our quality ahead of them is quite dire), unless Gerrard goes on fire and scores 20+ for the season. Busquets has the likes of Xavi and Iniesta ahead of him to carry the load. I'd rather have a player like Fletcher or Essien or Song and you could go on to Martinez and Vidal who are all DMs (so obviously superior in defence) but possess attacking qualities far greater than Henderson. Obviously we aren't getting that/them, so you'd want someone more of an attacking threat alone at least e.g. Aquilani.

[Sangria]

Ye but I don't believe you can carry 2 players in the midfield who give you so little end product return (especially when our quality ahead of them is quite dire), unless Gerrard goes on fire and scores 20+ for the season. Busquets has the likes of Xavi and Iniesta ahead of him to carry the load. I'd rather have a player like Fletcher or Essien or Song and you could go on to Martinez and Vidal who are all DMs (so obviously superior in defence) but possess attacking qualities far greater than Henderson. Obviously we aren't getting that/them, so you'd want someone more of an attacking threat alone at least e.g. Aquilani.

You need to cover the midfield fundamentals. Once you've done that, you try to fit in more of whatever else as you can get from your players, and shape your team accordingly. But you must cover the midfield fundamentals.

[Hazell]

It depends on the team. Alonso and Mascherano hardly scored a lot did they? Yet the team we had with them was still challenging for the league and the Champions League. Having two players in there like that isn't a problem as long as they're good enough, the team's set up to make use of them and we have other players who can score. It's not Lucas' fault if our front players can't score and if we use Henderson and Lucas together, then we need to make sure that we're set up to make use of their strengths and we can get goals from other areas. That's not to say Henderson doesn't need to improve or that we couldn't do with Aquilani or that the front players haven't been good enough etc - it's not a necessity to have players in CM who score a lot of goals.

Edit: sangira's post as well is spot on.

[penga]

It depends on the team. Alonso and Mascherano hardly scored a lot did they? Yet the team we had with them was still challenging for the league and the Champions League. Having two players in there like that isn't a problem as long as they're good enough, the team's set up to make use of them and we have other players who can score. It's not Lucas' fault if our front players can't score and if we use Henderson and Lucas together, then we need to make sure that we're set up to make use of their strengths and we can get goals from other areas. That's not to say Henderson doesn't need to improve or that we couldn't do with Aquilani or that the front players haven't been good enough etc - it's not a necessity to have players in CM who score a lot of goals.

And that was when Gerrard scored 20+ goals ! Alonso still had about 5 and 5. But the important thing is he could do playing the pass before the assist and the vision to progress the play, it is not such an obvious trait with Henderson yet. As Sangria says its about the fundamentals, but is Henderson providing enough of the fundamentals other than help keeping the ball? The next step is keeping the ball and progressing the play at the same time.

[Sangria]

And that was when Gerrard scored 20+ goals ! Alonso still had about 5 and 5. But the important thing is he could do playing the pass before the assist and the vision to progress the play, it is not such an obvious trait with Henderson yet. As Sangria says its about the fundamentals, but is Henderson providing enough of the fundamentals other than help keeping the ball? The next step is keeping the ball and progressing the play at the same time.

I think Henderson has enough of the basics for me to want to see more. As royhendo has said, technique, plays with his head up, excellent athleticism. Even if he doesn't have it all yet, I try not to form negative conclusions before someone is 23 or so if they have the right attitude, and Henderson does have that. So he has another couple of seasons for me before I come to any firm conclusions. But right now, he has enough of the basics for me to be happy that we have him, and I look forward to seeing how he hopefully develops.

[Hazell]

And that was when Gerrard scored 20+ goals ! Alonso still had about 5 and 5. But the important thing is he could do playing the pass before the assist and the vision to progress the play, it is not such an obvious trait with Henderson yet. As Sangria says its about the fundamentals, but is Henderson providing enough of the fundamentals other than help keeping the ball? The next step is keeping the ball and progressing the play at the same time.

Those are fair questions about Henderson and I agree with sangria, we'll see in a couple of years but he's definitely got what it takes to become that type of player. What you've said about Gerrard and Alonso (he scored at least 2 penalties that season and took our set pieces which Henderson or Lucas don't) is different to the point I was responding to though and actually shows that you don't need two players in midfield scoring boatlads to build a pretty good side. Which is what I was saying.

[Ben86]

I think Henderson has enough of the basics for me to want to see more. As royhendo has said, technique, plays with his head up, excellent athleticism. Even if he doesn't have it all yet, I try not to form negative conclusions before someone is 23 or so if they have the right attitude, and Henderson does have that. So he has another couple of seasons for me before I come to any firm conclusions. But right now, he has enough of the basics for me to be happy that we have him, and I look forward to seeing how he hopefully develops.

Considering I'm not as good with words as sangria I'll just quote this. Pretty much my opinion.

[Crouch Potato]

Any people who argue that Henderson is or could be a Defensive Midfielder needs to seriously take a look at his defensive stats, compared to Lucas, for instance.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/68659

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/31451

Lucas for instance made an average of 5.7 tackles per game and 2.8 interceptions, whereas Henderson made 1.2 tackles per game and 1.5 interceptions.

Even allowing for him playing in a different position most games, compared to Lucas, the stats show that basically he's not a tackler.

[Cpt_Reina]

Any people who argue that Henderson is or could be a Defensive Midfielder needs to seriously take a look at his defensive stats, compared to Lucas, for instance.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/68659

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/31451

Lucas for instance made an average of 5.7 tackles per game and 2.8 interceptions, whereas Henderson made 1.2 tackles per game and 1.5 interceptions.

Even allowing for him playing in a different position most games, compared to Lucas, the stats show that basically he's not a tackler.

Got Lucas' stats from 3 years ago, when he was Henderson's age?

[Cadno]

Any people who argue that Henderson is or could be a Defensive Midfielder needs to seriously take a look at his defensive stats, compared to Lucas, for instance.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/68659

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/31451

Lucas for instance made an average of 5.7 tackles per game and 2.8 interceptions, whereas Henderson made 1.2 tackles per game and 1.5 interceptions.

Even allowing for him playing in a different position most games, compared to Lucas, the stats show that basically he's not a tackler.

Comparing his stats to Lucas when he has spent most if the season on the right is pointless  and more than that it makes no sense at all.  Would be more interesting to compare his stats to Kuyt when he has plyed on the right.  Or only show the stats for when Hendrson has actually played the holding role (even though this would be a small sample)

[cptrios]

Would be nice to see him, Gerrard, Downing, Adam, Enrique, Shelvey, Bellamy, Johnson, and Spearing hit the target now and then instead of ballooning it over the bar every time they shoot.

Not that I particularly disagree with you, mind you.

[Crouch Potato]

He may be playing on the right sometimes but he's not been playing as an out and out winger, he's just a midfielder who's playing on the right, and even the most blinkered fan can see that he drifts inside in most games, and ends up playing towards the middle most of the time.

I'm not asking for the stats to be taken literally but just to adjust them slightly, to allow for the different position he plays in some games.

[Crouch Potato]

Ok, if u want an example of someone who plays on the wing but sometimes plays in the centre, how about Pienaar?

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3553

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/68659

Compare his defensive stats to Henderson's. I know he's much more experienced, but you can see from his stats that although Pienaar's never been a defensive player, he still has better stats than Henderson.

[penga]

Ye I'm certainly not suggesting we bin him or anything and I'll give him a couple of seasons but I'm just saying at this point in time I don't think he is ready to be the regular who will take us back into Champions League football next season.

People just seem to have this preconceived idea that he is showing a lot of intelligence on the pitch when in my view a lot of it is shirking responsibility rather than being intelligent. I mean how many times have you see Henderson in a game receive a pass fairly deep in the opposition half and then play a medium-long range ground pass all the way back to the CB forcing us to start a move all over again. That's the frustrating part, he does it too often imo.

[Danzo]

I don't think he's awful but obviously he hasn't really set the premiership alight, and he is still only young. However, his transfer just seems like another one that doesn't really fit in with our system, which begs the question, what did we buy him for?

[Crouch Potato]

Ye I'm certainly not suggesting we bin him or anything and I'll give him a couple of seasons but I'm just saying at this point in time I don't think he is ready to be the regular who will take us back into Champions League football next season.

People just seem to have this preconceived idea that he is showing a lot of intelligence on the pitch when in my view a lot of it is shirking responsibility rather than being intelligent. I mean how many times have you see Henderson in a game receive a pass fairly deep in the opposition half and then play a medium-long range ground pass all the way back to the CB forcing us to start a move all over again. That's the frustrating part, he does I too often imo.

As i said in a previous post, he could be a much better player but he just needs to be more brave and adventurous with his passes.

[penga]

I don't think he's awful but obviously he hasn't really set the premiership alight, and he is still only young. However, his transfer just seems like another one that doesn't really fit in with our system, which begs the question, what did we buy him for?

Presumably as a right midfielder who would offer something steady out there while creating chances and tuck in to allow Johnson to go forward. With the view to play central midfield and develop.

[MassDriver]

It depends on the team. Alonso and Mascherano hardly scored a lot did they? Yet the team we had with them was still challenging for the league and the Champions League. Having two players in there like that isn't a problem as long as they're good enough, the team's set up to make use of them and we have other players who can score. It's not Lucas' fault if our front players can't score and if we use Henderson and Lucas together, then we need to make sure that we're set up to make use of their strengths and we can get goals from other areas. That's not to say Henderson doesn't need to improve or that we couldn't do with Aquilani or that the front players haven't been good enough etc - it's not a necessity to have players in CM who score a lot of goals.

Edit: sangira's post as well is spot on.

Missing the point by a country mile here.

Mascherano and Alonso did other things that enabled the team to score a shit load of goals.  Mascherano could win the ball any fucking where on the pitch and give it to teh more gifted players , Alonso could pick out any player anywhere from any position , while simultaneously dragging two players out of position. They had well defined roles in the team and carried it out to perfection. They were absolutely crucial to the way we played.

While all Henderson does is get the ball , pass it to another player instantly , usually a 5-10 yard pass sideways or backwards , run around aimlessly chasing the ball to no great effect and make the occasional forward run or ping in a cross , again usually to no advantage to the team.

As far as Sangria's post is concerned , I would like him to expound a bit more.

[Hazell]

Missing the point by a country mile here.

Mascherano and Alonso did other things that enabled the team to score a shit load of goals.  Mascherano could win the ball any fucking where on the pitch and give it to teh more gifted players , Alonso could pick out any player anywhere from any position , while simultaneously dragging two players out of position. They had well defined roles in the team and carried it out to perfection. They were absolutely crucial to the way we played.

While all Henderson does is get the ball , pass it to another player instantly , usually a 5-10 yard pass sideways or backwards , run around aimlessly chasing the ball to no great effect and make the occasional forward run or ping in a cross , again usually to no advantage to the team.

As far as Sangria's post is concerned , I would like him to expound a bit more.

Not missing the point at all, if you've read through the thread. Matter of fact, I've explained previously that there's things we need to do to improve and that includes Henderson. The Mascherano/Alonso point was simply to highlight that 2 CM's not providing goals or direct assists isn't necessarily a negative, which is what someone said it was. It wasn't to compare Henderson/Lucas to them or state that Henderson is like Alonso or anything like that. Again though, it seems you haven't read through what the discussion was about and instead jumped in midway.

Not getting into a discussion about Henderson with you, I've read your posts on him and like Fordy and Brentie, it's too far removed from much semblance of reality.

[B0151?]

what i expect from a young player in his first season to show:

desire, commitment and potential

he's shown all three of them in my opinion through the season. going to be such a vital asset in the years to come like it or not. he's been played too much like, out of position especially. but i've heard people call him hopeless, clearly haven't been watching the matches.

it's like when ye hate someone, everything they do annoys you, don't notice the other things they do. that's some peoples attitude to henderson on here. look for the negatives so much they can't see the positives.

is henderson better than spearing? yes. will he better than spearing? miles better.  so is he an improvement? yes. the injury of lucas is what really fucked him over. it's what fucked the whole team over.

[MassDriver]

Not missing the point at all, if you've read through the thread. Matter of fact, I've explained previously that there's things we need to do to improve and that includes Henderson. The Mascherano/Alonso point was simply to highlight that 2 CM's not providing goals or direct assists isn't necessarily a negative, which is what someone said it was. It wasn't to compare Henderson/Lucas to them or state that Henderson is like Alonso or anything like that. Again though, it seems you haven't read through what the discussion was about and instead jumped in midway.

Not getting into a discussion about Henderson with you, I've read your posts on him and like Fordy and Brentie, it's too far removed from much semblance of reality.

Far removed from much semblance of reality , fucking hell.  ;DI mean , every fucking criticism I have made of the lad , I've tried to do it properly and explain why I feel the way I do. If you want to see mindless nonsense please enter the Spearing thread and take a look .

But of course , my posts do not conform to your worldview so they must be 'removed from much semblance of reality'. Your buddy 5th Benitle who makes loads of constructive footballing ripostes thinks so. 

So sorry , I will try not to engage you in the future with my unreal posts.

[Hazell]

I saw the Spearing thread. Saw you having a go at Henderson in there as well. Your second paragraph is inaccurate of course. Again it seems to be a case of you not reading the thread as I've responded to numerous posts criticising or regarding Henderson - one actually to penga which is the discussion you were referencing, it's strange you missed that given that you quoted one of the posts in relation to it - in a fair way but like I said, there are some posters who seem to have it in for certain players so it's difficult to engage with them.

[penga]

I saw the Spearing thread. Saw you having a go at Henderson in there as well. Your second paragraph is inaccurate of course. Again it seems to be a case of you not reading the thread as I've responded to numerous posts criticising or regarding Henderson - one actually to penga which is the discussion you were referencing, it's strange you missed that given that you quoted one of the posts in relation to it - in a fair way but like I said, there are some posters who seem to have it in for certain players so it's difficult to engage with them.

FYI I think Henderson has better potential than Spearing but is probably even right now it terms of what they give to the team, they both should be squad cover players. The fact of the matter is Spearing plays a more important position where he can be exposed more easily, he can't hide. When he was playing good earlier in the season there's no doubt he out performed Henderson, but since his dip he is playing worse than Henderson.

But have a look at this thread. It is basically 90% saying Henderson can do no wrong just needs some balls. Look at that thread, 99% saying Spearing must be kicked out, championship player including you. I'm just giving a comparison of what they expect from one player as opposed to the other. Perspective you may call it.

[MassDriver]

FYI I think Henderson has better potential than Spearing but is probably even right now it terms of what they give to the team, they both should be squad cover players. The fact of the matter is Spearing plays a more important position where he can be exposed more easily, he can't hide. When he was playing good earlier in the season there's no doubt he out performed Henderson, but since his dip he is playing worse than Henderson.

But have a look at this thread. It is basically 90% saying Henderson can do no wrong just needs some balls. Look at that thread, 99% saying Spearing must be kicked out, championship player including you. I'm just giving a comparison of what they expect from one player as opposed to the other. Perspective you may call it.

Nail on the fucking head.

Thank you.

[Andy]

Ok, if u want an example of someone who plays on the wing but sometimes plays in the centre, how about Pienaar?

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3553

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/68659

Compare his defensive stats to Henderson's. I know he's much more experienced, but you can see from his stats that although Pienaar's never been a defensive player, he still has better stats than Henderson.

that's an interesting website though does ignore things like: enforced mistakes through pressurising, the impact of positioning on the pitch etc etc.

using these metrics, glen johnston is only as good as pienaar (http://www.whoscored.com/Players/4574/Show/Glen-Johnson). I'm guessing you want rid of glen too? also Agger has only made 1.2 tackles per game. Rubbish! stats can be used to prove anything, 87% of people know that.

[Crixus]

Carrick isn't bad.

I wasn't being negative. I'd like a Carrick in the team. Hopefully he can become better, that would be great. But he has a long way to go. Carrick is just a crap, english version of Alonso. Again not a bad thing, a good thing.

[Hazell]

FYI I think Henderson has better potential than Spearing but is probably even right now it terms of what they give to the team, they both should be squad cover players. The fact of the matter is Spearing plays a more important position where he can be exposed more easily, he can't hide. When he was playing good earlier in the season there's no doubt he out performed Henderson, but since his dip he is playing worse than Henderson.

I think Henderson's been played too much as well and in too many different positions this season. Don't think Spearing's out performed him though.

But have a look at this thread. It is basically 90% saying Henderson can do no wrong just needs some balls. Look at that thread, 99% saying Spearing must be kicked out, championship player including you. I'm just giving a comparison of what they expect from one player as opposed to the other. Perspective you may call it.

Again, simply not true. Not much else to say to that when people resort to making things up. Can people at least read what others write instead of making it up in their head?

[LincsRedbob]

Will be a better player if he had Lucas playing just behind him ..oh and play him in the fukin middle

[penga]

I think Henderson's been played too much as well and in too many different positions this season. Don't think Spearing's out performed him though.

Again, simply not true. Not much else to say to that when people resort to making things up.

Surely you can see in that thread 99% of them are calling for his head which is the main point. The stuff spouted in there is just nasty, even if you don't think he has outperformed Henderson in certain games or parts of the season, he certainly hasn't been that far behind yet the reactions are so different. You seemed to suggest Spearing would be the last player suitable to play CDM alone in our squad.

[Hazell]

Surely you can see in that thread 99% of them are calling for his head which is the main point. The stuff spouted in there is just nasty. You seemed to suggest Spearing would be the last player suitable to play CDM alone in our squad.

Whatever mate, you're wrong again but you've already said I've said something which I haven't so there's hardly any point to carrying on is there? If that's how you want to have a discussion about players, there's no point carrying on. At least make sure you're accurate.

[MassDriver]

Surely you can see in that thread 99% of them are calling for his head which is the main point. The stuff spouted in there is just nasty, even if you don't think he has outperformed Henderson in certain games or parts of the season, he certainly hasn't been that far behind. You seemed to suggest Spearing would be the last player suitable to play CDM alone in our squad.

A poster just said he is the worst midfield regular out of any team in the league.  Unfuckingreal. And I have been accused of spouting biased nonsense in this thread.

Bordering on hate.

Sadly , it is a poster who I don't really mind.

[penga]

Whatever mate, you're wrong again but you've already said I've said something which I haven't so there's hardly any point to carrying on is there? If that's how you want to have a discussion about players, there's no point carrying on. At least make sure you're accurate.

Ye but you're nit picking on the point that's probably the least important in the post. Read the rest of the post.

Sorry if I interpreted this wrong "Aside from Lucas, there's no one there who can play that role without needing someone else there beside them - not Gerrard, not Henderson, not Adam, not Shelvey and certainly not Spearing." You're probably right but Lucas always gets help from at least 1 midfielder when we have to defend so he covers one side and the other covers the other, they don't just leave him there on his own unless its a counter attack that's too quick.

[Hazell]

Ye but you're nit picking on the point that's probably the least important in the post. Read the rest of the post.

Sorry if I interpreted this wrong "Aside from Lucas, there's no one there who can play that role without needing someone else there beside them - not Gerrard, not Henderson, not Adam, not Shelvey and certainly not Spearing."

Not too concerned about that particular point, none of them can IMO and since that's lifted from the Spearing thread, it's why I highlighted him. For what it's worth, he's better at that role than some of the others but that's not saying much. My point was in response to your post where you seem to have either got me confused with someone else, misremembered or worse just plain lied. Whatever it is, what you said was untrue.

[Solomon Grundy]

Xabi wasn't, he just needs to improve his tackling and positioning

Thats because Xabi Alonso isn't a DM. Hes a deep-lying midfield play-maker.

[Fordy]

Will be a better player if he had Lucas playing just behind him ..oh and play him in the fukin middle

That will apply for most players - he still isn't good enough.

And he has played in the fukin middle. Played in the fukin middle yesterday and was fuking shit hence why he got move to the fukin right.

[Solomon Grundy]

Missing the point by a country mile here.

Mascherano and Alonso did other things that enabled the team to score a shit load of goals.  Mascherano could win the ball any fucking where on the pitch and give it to teh more gifted players , Alonso could pick out any player anywhere from any position , while simultaneously dragging two players out of position. They had well defined roles in the team and carried it out to perfection. They were absolutely crucial to the way we played.

May I add, the pair of them were not easily bullied either.