Topic: Suarez: Why We Must Stand By Our Man

[ArcticRed]

Has anyone got a link to the Tony Evans article. I've read and disagree with Brian Reade's.

5 posts or so above yours... albeit re-published by some Aussie paper.

[R.A.La]

Since this issue raised it's ugly head, we as a fanbase have looked into all apects of racism. We have looked at it's nuances and interpretations, and how things can get distorted by either ignorance or agenda.

We have all learned from this, except the rest of the country who sit there sharpening their pitchforks. They will carry on as before, screaming racial insults from the stands, booing national anthems and calling Luis a racist.

Hypocritical bastards.

[Big Red Richie]

I mean the FA could've given him a warning, even if they thought he said negro, which he supposedly did not. They could've said alright, you didn't mean to offend, and given him a warning. Instead, they have given him such a ban that he is tarred with his racist tag for the rest of his life. That is the disgrace - I don't even care about the banned games. Clear his name Liverpool. Take the FA to the fucking cleaners.

Thats the point for me now.

It's gone way beyond football, and the ban is a secondary concern now. Even if they double the tarriff to 16 game, who cares. We'll get by.

This is no longer about the ban, but more importantly defending a mans name and reputation.  He's now been branded a racist for the rest of his carreer, so Liverpool Football Club now need to draw aline in the sand, and say, NO MORE!

That is exactly why LFC need to completely by-pass the F.A. and take it to CAS, or the highest court in the land if needed.

I'm not an edvocate or lover of taking things outside of football, and into the courts, but in this instance I feel that Liverpool and Suarez himself have no option if they want to clear his name.

[RedRush]

Great OP, Timbo's Goals. Agree totally.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Thats the point for me now.

It's gone way beyond football, and the ban is a secondary concern now. Even if they double the tarriff to 16 game, who cares. We'll get by.

This is no longer about the ban, but more importantly defending a mans name and reputation.  He's now been nranded a racist for the rest of his carreer, so Liverpool Football Club now need to draw aline in the sand, and say, NO MORE!

That is exactly why LFC completely by-pass the F.A. and take it to CAS, or the highest court in the land if needed.

I'm not an edvocate or lover of taking things outside of football, and into the courts, but in this instance I feel that Liverpool and Suarez himsel have no option if they want to clear his name.

Exactly. I couldn't give a shiny shite about the ban or the fine. If he's out for the rest of the season then fine. I'd rather have that and him clear his name than get no ban. This is about truth and clearing a mans name when it appears he has been let down badly by an organisation you are supposed to expect better of.

I would have said "By an organisation that you would expect better of" but I don't. They are a disgrace to Britain.

[1021]

Has anyone got a link to the Tony Evans article. I've read and disagree with Brian Reade's.

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=288942

I'm very disappointed by both Evans and Reade's articles.
Not that they cannot have their own opinion on the issue, but it seems to me that they are both neglecting the fact that cultural differences do in fact matter, especially in the apparent multicultural haven that is the United Kingdom, and that the conversation apparently took place in Spanish where 'negrito' is perfectly acceptable (again presuming this is the word used).

[R.A.La]

http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=288942

I'm very disappointed by both Evans and Reade's articles.
Not that they cannot have their own opinion on the issue, but it seems to me that they are both neglecting the fact that cultural differences do in fact matter, especially in the apparent multicultural haven that is the United Kingdom, and that the conversation apparently took place in Spanish where 'negrito' is perfectly acceptable (again presuming this is the word used).

In his first sentance Tony Evans admits his ignorance of the subject. I should have stopped reading then.

[Trada]

A great OP.

Just can't wait until the full judgement is released, I imagine the FA's lawyers are going though it word by word.


Hopefully not long after that there will be a lot of backtracking and egg on faces in the media.

[1021]

In his first sentance Tony Evans admits his ignorance of the subject. I should have stopped reading then.

Indeed. The entire article just seems wilfully ignorant of context.

[Roy of the rovers]

“To our knowledge, neither club has bothered to conduct its own independent investigation or hold a disciplinary hearing. If such serious allegations of racism had been made in the workplace, any reasonable employer would consider itself to be under a strict duty to conduct a full, detailed and impartial investigation into the allegations, and not simply to state that they stand behind the denials of the player concerned.

The idea that Suarez calling Evra a 'negrito' is 'serious' beggars belief. Stephen Lawrence was 'serious'. Someone being denied a job or a promotion is 'serious'. An extended period of bullying (i.e. weeks, months or years, rather than seconds) is serious

Seriously, even if Suarez had called Evra 'negrito' 10 times, with racist intent, it still wouldn't be 'serious'. Unpleasant, for sure. Requiring investigation and discipline, for sure. But 'serious'. Christ, if that's 'serious', what's the word we use for racist murders?

[Treasure Everywhere]

Been trying to post this in the comments section for the SBL article for ages now, keep getting an error message... Anybody else have the same problem?

Dear Sir/Madam,

There appears to be a misunderstanding, which can be most clearly observed in the passage "[...] Chelsea and Liverpool Football Clubs for appearing to endorse the alleged acts of racism perpetuated by John Terry and Luis Suarez respectively". While I have not been following the Terry case, Liverpool FC have made it abundantly clear that they are supporting Luis Suarez because they are convinced that he has _not_ perpetrated an act of racism and that they are as committed as they ever have been to the fight against racism. The quoted passage, on the other hand, suggests that the club is aware of the guilt of the player and simply does not see the issue with racism. Something, I hope you'll agree, entirely different.

Further, this Peter Herbert quote, "To our knowledge, neither club has bothered to conduct its own independent investigation or hold a disciplinary hearing" suggests that the SBL would automatically be privy to -- or at the very least have knowledge of -- any such investigation. I would be much obliged if you could explain what leads you to this assumption.

Finally, the Suarez appears to a case of considerable complexity. I would sincerely hope that SBL has availed itself of all the necessary background information before commenting (and certainly before taking such an aggressive stance). I am afraid to say, however, that I see little evidence of such preparation in the above article.


Yours faithfully,
TE

[redrockydennis]

I'm Suareztacus!

I'm suareztacus, and so's my wife!

[Ultimate Bromance]

It's one thing for members of the public to quickly jump to conclusions without any real evidence, having been forced to rely on hearsay to form their opinion, it's another thing entirely for journalists to do so, and on such a large scale. Been pretty reluctant to comment on the whole ordeal so far, but I just find it so incredible that "journalists" are now effectively in charge of creating the news, rather than simply reporting it, and no one really bothers to say hang on a minute, you haven't got all the facts here. Instead simpletons just take it as gospel, and spread it to their other halfwit mates and now, in the digital age, within a matter of hours the truth of a matter is suddenly in the minority, drowned out by vocal morons.
 
Better to be first than right seems to be the motto in the media industry. Sporting/Entertainment industries of journalism are utterly despicable. Filled with their shitty tabloid gossip opinions, innuendo and straight up lies.

As for this case itself, I don't know what more can be said. As time goes on and the more agenda-driven articles are published and more and more PC-bandwagon hoppers jump on, and we as a club continue to defend an innocent man I wonder how this is all going to end, and how bad the eventual damage will be; not necessarily for Liverpool, or Suarez, but for English society - which seems to be infested with arrogant bigots at every level. This has long since gone past club rivalries, the length of the ban or even football itself, and one hopes if any good can come out of this then perhaps the English culture, at least in football, might be a little less xenophobic in the future. Who knows, maybe after we've taken them all to court journalists will be a little more reluctant to talk shit without the knowledge to back it up. At least I know one group of people who've been willing to open their eyes to the unknown and do a bit of research before opening their mouths.

[Bangon]

Are we talking about the same Tony Evans who professes to being a "massive" Liverpudlian whilst being more than happy to work for Rupert Murdoch's blood money? Fuck him. Brian Reade on the other hand, I'm just disappointed. The man‘s word is usually gospel amongst Kopites and I can’t help but think he’s done himself no favours at all with this underbalanced piece. I can’t wait to hear what they’ve got to say when this support for Suarez is vindicated. Humble pie doesn’t come into it. They should know better.

[Eeyore]

Indeed. The entire article just seems wilfully ignorant of context.

Not only that but he then goes onto criticise Liverpool fans for actually researching the subject something the media, the FA, Gordon Taylor and Peter Herbert seem unable or unwilling to do.

The biggest assumption is that Suarez was seeking to wind Evra up. I am sorry but you wind players up to try and stop them performing to try and break their concentration and to lower their level of performance. Suarez has absolutely ran United ragged every time he has played against them and we were well on top in the game.

It is pretty clear who the one wishing to wind up their opponent was. It is akin to an Australian fielding side complaining about a batsmen saying nasty things to them whilst they are trying to sledge him.

The whole incident started because Evra was whining about Suarez having the downright effrontery to kick him whilst challenging for the ball. This is the same Patrice Evra who tried to cut downing in two moments later.

The whole affair has stunk of rank hypocrisy from start to finish.

[SmallwoodRed]

In his first sentance Tony Evans admits his ignorance of the subject. I should have stopped reading then.

From Evans article:
==========================================================================================================
The club should have put out a statement that read something like this: “Patrice Evra has alleged that Luis Suárez made racist remarks to him during the game at Anfield. Suárez denies this emphatically but has come to realise that it was easy for Evra to misunderstand the nuances of the Spanish phrase used and believe that he had been racially abused. Suárez would like to apologise unreservedly for any upset caused and make clear that he is against racism and discrimination in all its forms. It was a poor choice of words in the context but any student of South American culture will explain it has no racial overtones. In future, Liverpool Football Club will issue its players with a set of guidelines as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.”
========================================================================================================

A journalist with no access to the facts either at the time or since, with no knowledge or what went on during the incident and after in terms of attempts at mediation and (by his own admission) no understanding of South American culture, using hindsight to pontificate about how Liverpool should have handled the problem.
Sort of sums it up really.

[Stanfo]

It is a very difficult situation and one that will be difficult to fully assess until all the evidence is in the public domain, even then that will only be what was made public. I have recently heard things about the incident from someone involved at a minor level, which if correct would alter my view considerably. I have also heard something about the club with regards another high profile issue, that has made me aware of how little we as fans and indeed journalists know about football clubs.

With regards those journalists who make a nice living writing for high profile broadsheet rags, what do we expect, journalists ultimately all eat from the same trough and the majority will do whatever it takes to further their careers/wages. So many high profile media fans from this club all look out for their own backs, especially on twitter, furthering their own agendas and building very successful profiles based on what many as fans think of them. Best advice is to take them all with a pinch of salt and give them the respect they have earned rather than what they and their mates believe they deserve.

[planet-terror]

Flag held by Argentine national team to show support for a black player that is fighting for his life..
 Does this mean all the argentinian team are racists ?
 No it means that there is a cultural difference!

[1021]

Not only that but he then goes onto criticise Liverpool fans for actually researching the subject something the media, the FA, Gordon Taylor and Peter Herbert seem unable or unwilling to do.

The biggest assumption is that Suarez was seeking to wind Evra up. I am sorry but you wind players up to try and stop them performing to try and break their concentration and to lower their level of performance. Suarez has absolutely ran United ragged every time he has played against them and we were well on top in the game.

It is pretty clear who the one wishing to wind up their opponent was. It is akin to an Australian fielding side complaining about a batsmen saying nasty things to them whilst they are trying to sledge him.

The whole incident started because Evra was whining about Suarez having the downright effrontery to kick him whilst challenging for the ball. This is the same Patrice Evra who tried to cut downing in two moments later.

The whole affair has stunk of rank hypocrisy from start to finish.

The best part for me was the logic that Luis Suarez couldn't have used a term without offensive overtones because it was Liverpool vs. Manchester United.

[Eeyore]

The best part for me was the logic that Luis Suarez couldn't have used a term without offensive overtones because it was Liverpool vs. Manchester United.

That pretty much sums up the whole issue for me  far too many people judging Luis by what their own thought process would of been, which is simply ridiculous.

[walshys_mullet]

Well said Timbo.

[Yakyb]

Flag held by Argentine national team to show support for a black player that is fighting for his life..
 Does this mean all the argentinian team are racists ?
 No it means that there is a cultural difference!

thats a great find

[db1animal]

Just imagine what could have been if this situation had been handled by someone with half an ounce of common sense.

If the FA had come out and clearly stated that while they believe Suarez has used abusive language that Evra felt to be of a potentially racist or racial nature, neither the FA or Evra believe that Suarez has anything but the up most respect for all persons within and outside of the game, and comments made by both players towards one another were of a foul and abusive nature, they are unfortunately of an all to common nature within the game be it from players, playing staff or supporters.
While this does not condone what either player said it would be hypocritical of the FA to punish either player beyond a suspended one match ban for inappropriate behaviour or bringing the game into disrepute.
The FA would however like to use the high profile nature of this incident to begin an open dialogue between all persons involved with the game to raise the issue of the use of offensive language between/towards players, officials, supporters, and its place within the game. The issue is far beyond one person or one group of persons reasoning and raises many social, ethical and moral questions especially when you consider the vast range of cultures both with the game and our society.
The FA hopes that the game from grass roots right unto international level can be an environment that all persons can enjoy passionately while maintaining the upmost respect for all others involved.

Now if the FA had made a statement like that the media could have their fun making FIFA look incredibly stupid, rather than branding poor Suarez as someone he clearly is not.

[Treasure Everywhere]

Been trying to post this in the comments section for the SBL article for ages now, keep getting an error message... Anybody else have the same problem?

Dear Sir/Madam,

[...]


Yours faithfully,
TE

Still not a single comment under said article. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

[eAyeAddio]

In his first sentance Tony Evans admits his ignorance of the subject. I should have stopped reading then.

From Evans article:
"The club should have put out a statement that read something like this.......... etc.  etc:     “


No, Evans, that isn't what the club should have put out at all.

LFC should have put out a statement along the lines of:

"A frustrated Evra has complained on French TV channel Canal+, of being abused by Luis Suarez for complaining about being kicked by Evra.

Evra made no mention of the incident during the game to the match officials or his own team.

Nobody involved in the game from either team had heard one of the supposed 10 times that he alleged took place.      Nobody.

Evra has previous history of lying to the FA over a similar incident and the FA refused to believe him.  Contact Chelsea groundstaff for further information.

Evra is a proven liar and cannot be trusted in a claim like this."

And you, Evans, need to keep your opinions to yourself until such time as you become aware of the facts. 

[GODS LEFT BOOT]

Flag held by Argentine national team to show support for a black player that is fighting for his life..
 Does this mean all the argentinian team are racists ?
 No it means that there is a cultural difference!

Game , set , match?

[PowderKeg]

From Evans article:
"The club should have put out a statement that read something like this.......... etc.  etc:     “


No, Evans, that isn't what the club should have put out at all.

LFC should have put out a statement along the lines of:

"A frustrated Evra has complained on French TV channel Canal+, of being abused by Luis Suarez for complaining about being kicked by Evra.

Evra made no mention of the incident during the game to the match officials or his own team.

Nobody involved in the game from either team had heard one of the supposed 10 times that he alleged took place.      Nobody.

Evra has previous history of lying to the FA over a similar incident and the FA refused to believe him.  Contact Chelsea groundstaff for further information.

Evra is a proven liar and cannot be trusted in a claim like this."

And you, Evans, need to keep your opinions to yourself until such time as you become aware of the facts.

This is actually incorrect and it's been used against us. Evra wasn't the one who made the complaint or claimed racism. It was Phelan who heard the comments and apparently testified.

In any case, this is a weak argument.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/05/premierleague-manchesterunited

[Licky]

Evans has always been a massive c*ck anyhow, but I had more respect for Reade, but he's firmly sh*t it for me over this.
If he was a red he'd have declined to comment, the fact that he chose to write what he did proves he's just another head in the trough gutter journo.

[Ziggy09]

This is actually incorrect and it's been used against us. Evra wasn't the one who made the complaint or claimed racism. It was Phelan who heard the comments and apparently testified.

In any case, this is a weak argument.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/05/premierleague-manchesterunited

That journalist from the Guardian who wrote the story is very very close to Mr Alex Ferguson. Ive read it before and just wondered, if Evra never made the complaint, why was he singled out by the FA's report as over-exaggerating the case etc? They made no reference to Phelan or the gk coach, so surely the FA must have believed that Evra was in essence lying, hence their statement or were they just being racist and blaming it all on him??!

[gazzathered]

I've spoken to a few supporters of different clubs and they can't understand why he's got such a long ban. It's such an injustice, it's corrupt but all we can do is support the man.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

This is actually incorrect and it's been used against us. Evra wasn't the one who made the complaint or claimed racism. It was Phelan who heard the comments and apparently testified.

no-one mentioned that evra brought up racism, just that his account of the events was exaggerated and unreliable

[Ziggy09]

Just imagine what could have been if this situation had been handled by someone with half an ounce of common sense.

If the FA had come out and clearly stated that while they believe Suarez has used abusive language that Evra felt to be of a potentially racist or racial nature, neither the FA or Evra believe that Suarez has anything but the up most respect for all persons within and outside of the game, and comments made by both players towards one another were of a foul and abusive nature, they are unfortunately of an all to common nature within the game be it from players, playing staff or supporters.
While this does not condone what either player said it would be hypocritical of the FA to punish either player beyond a suspended one match ban for inappropriate behaviour or bringing the game into disrepute.
The FA would however like to use the high profile nature of this incident to begin an open dialogue between all persons involved with the game to raise the issue of the use of offensive language between/towards players, officials, supporters, and its place within the game. The issue is far beyond one person or one group of persons reasoning and raises many social, ethical and moral questions especially when you consider the vast range of cultures both with the game and our society.
The FA hopes that the game from grass roots right unto international level can be an environment that all persons can enjoy passionately while maintaining the upmost respect for all others involved.

Now if the FA had made a statement like that the media could have their fun making FIFA look incredibly stupid, rather than branding poor Suarez as someone he clearly is not.

WOW, this is pretty much EXACTLY what I was thinking the statement should have been!!! Sadly, the people who run the FA are no way on the same wavelength, yet alone planet,as they rest of us!

[PowderKeg]

That journalist from the Guardian who wrote the story is very very close to Mr Alex Ferguson. Ive read it before and just wondered, if Evra never made the complaint, why was he singled out by the FA's report as over-exaggerating the case etc? They made no reference to Phelan or the gk coach, so surely the FA must have believed that Evra was is essence lying, hence their statement or were they just being racist and blaming it all on him??!

Evra was censured for the fight. The fight was a result of some words being exchanged between him and the groundmen. I'm not sure what was said was ever published. The point is, we are guessing Evra pulled the race card, but that's never actually been verified. What has been reported however is that Mike Phelen heard the groundsmen say something that was racially insensitive and that's what he reported to the FA.

Basically it's irrelevent, and liverpool fans using that example just hurts our case.

Attacking Evra's character to defend Suarez makes us look guilty to the world because Suarez is no angel either. We point fingers at Evra, call him a liar...they point fingers at Suarez, call him one of the games instigators and someone who isn't shy of resorting to the dark arts if it helps him win. The point here is that Suarez admitted he said something which might be considered racial in England but is perfectly acceptable where he's from. All he/we have to do is say there was no malice behind those words, and if there was any offense caused it was certainly not intended. I firmly believe mistakes were made on all sides in how this matter was dealt with. The FA and Media certainly played a huge role,  so did Evra and United...but we could have defused this bomb as well and didn't.

[bepoq]

Always seems to be double standards that. An openly racist organisation campaigning about racism?

There is no double standard when there is no equivalence between the groups.

Look, I think that at the very least the FA has engaged in its usual shocking mismanagement in appointing the panel, and that the panel has done exactly what might have been expected of people with no experience in this area and a mandate not to suddenly go out and gain any—as many of our fans have done (first the global economics of sports teams and now race and interculturalism in liquid modernity... the late 70s seemed a simpler time to follow the reds even if we hadn't been winning everything). I actually think it is worse than that and that they're toying with a blokes career on political grounds. But if we want to defend Suarez on nuanced cultural grounds (which we do and which is right), on the grounds that different historical discourses and linguistic uses lead to different meanings carried by a word in different places and of the impossibility of direct translation, then we also have to acknowledge that other historical discourses lead to grievous power imbalances that require those on the weak side of those same imbalances to form organisations to redress them as best they can. Of course there is no society of white lawyers, because it was never necessary— for the longest time it was the bar association (and in some cases, it really still is).

Even though i think they are wretchedly wrong in this case—as someone put it really well above:

Bah. How difficult can it be to understand the difference between: "Yeah, he's said something racist, we don't care" and "We are convinced that he didn't say anything racist, which is why we are supporting him"??

Nevertheless, it makes us look pretty poor taking these snidey potshots at them, and it makes us look as though we're only willing to consider the subtleties of ethnic dynamics when they happen to be useful for defending our player, and otherwise to hell with cultural nuance.

[John C]

Evra made no mention of the incident during the game to the match officials or his own team.

It was pointed out the next day on Goals on Sunday that he did tell the ref.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It was pointed out the next day on Goals on Sunday that he did tell the ref.

the press release said the ref found out about the supposed abuse after the game, so if what evra said is true then why hasnt andre marriner been sacked?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It was pointed out the next day on Goals on Sunday that he did tell the ref.

That's not what the FA said.

[vivabobbygraham]

Nevertheless, it makes us look pretty poor taking these snidey potshots at them, and it makes us look as though we're only willing to consider the subtleties of ethnic dynamics when they happen to be useful for defending our player, and otherwise to hell with cultural nuance.

This is a fan forum, there are fucking potshots going off all over the place. You can't stop that. There have also been many - this op included- decent, well drawn posts that could not fail to convince the neutral that there is a huge injustice being perpetrated here by fools and vagabonds.

[john_mac]

That's not what the FA said.

Nor the ref

[John C]

That's not what the FA said.

Chris Kamara highlighted what he interpreted Evra was saying to the ref - "he's calling me names, hes's calling me names". Maybe since then its been established that isnt what Evra was saying.