Topic: Wigan 0-0 Liverpool: Full Time.....

[Red Genius]

This is it. Nobody was sold. There were no credit entries in the ledger whatsoever. You enormous fucking innumerate tit.

In a nutshell to all those who think we've spunked a zillion quid away.

[tomtom]

I thought Skrtel had a good game and it's nice to see that him and Agger have gelled nicely - why has this taken so long! Anyway, glad that's finally sticking.

The opening 20-25 minutes we looked good but again poor finishing let us down... can't really say much more about this other than if it keeps happening we just need more quality in the final 3rd. It can't all be down to bad luck over the course of half a season. Did we have 20ish shots by the end of that game?

Lucas as expected is being missed not only for his defensive work but also his link-up play. Lucas always shapes nicely for a short pass and looks to release it and keep it ticking over quickly. I thought our movement of the ball tonight was often laboured and could have been better.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I included you mate not ‘cos of anything you’ve written tonight, but because of a post I saw you make the other day (on the main board I think) where you were arguing that it has to be this season. I think it was after Alan_F made reference to our co-efficient in Europe falling with another season out. For what it’s worth, I agree with you about a few of the posters who I think we’re both too kind to mentioned by name, but I’m pretty sure we’d come up with the same list of four or five if pushed.

I think you’re using the context of the other teams and not looking at whether we ourselves are improving, and that’s what I disagree with. I’m not saying the others aren’t a team in transition. United, Arsenal and Chelsea all are. And United and Arsenal are showing it on the pitch. Chelsea seem to be going back and forth deciding whether they’re going to commit to that transition or not.

My point is that you’re saying we’ve got to do this and we’ve got to do it now or we’re going to fall away. You’re judging off what’s going on around us and not ourselves. We’re obviously a better team. And we’re obviously in transition. Whether you like that or Jaffod finds it difficult to palate doesn’t really matter does it. I don’t know about United, but I checked this – I think it was after the Swansea match – and roughly half of our match day squads are made up of players who haven’t been at the club a year. That wasn’t including Doni either. Nor was it including Spearing, Kelly and to a lesser extent Flanagan and Robinson when they’re involved. How many players who are actually involved for us aren’t new? Lucas, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher, Kuyt, Maxi, Gerrard, Aurelio. I don’t think Gerrard’s managed 5 games under Kenny either. I’m not using it as an excuse. I think it’s too legitimate to be an excuse. The turnover of players in the last 12 months has been immense. So whether it sits well or not, the argument that we’re in transition has validity.

Let’s get this right. You may think that we need to get Europe this season, for a number of valid reasons, but the owners did put a time table on it themselves just last year. People have run with them saying we should be aiming for top four (which we should, and we clearly are, even if we’re falling short presently). They said on the LFCTV channel that their view of it is as a three year project. Whether that sits too close to Houllier’s Five Year Plan or whatever else, but that’s what they said. Coincidentally Kenny has a three year contract at the moment.

When does it stop being a work in progress? I’m not going to say when. People make up their own minds about that. I thought after 6 years that it was Rafa, most on here didn’t. People will decide when they do. I do think that it’s unfair as hell to burden Kenny with this pressure of having to make-do double quick because others have taken so long. He’s six months into his job proper, and I think we’re quite fortunate that we’ve already got his team sorted. There’s a fair argument to say that the others, especially Rafa, spend a good two or three years waiting to get something resembling their own squad. Kenny’s had it in 6 months. So now the work of going forward should start.

I’ll say this as well. I think by doing so well with a team that squad back end of last season Kenny has made a small rod for his own back this. He gave people the false impression that we could go forward with a lot of that lot when I don’t think that was ever the intention, or possible personally. By doing what we did against Birmingham and Fulham I think people have come in with the expectation that we should be ripping teams apart from the off (and we are to an extent, just not finishing the chances).

I was listening to someone the other day (can’t remember who, just some press gobshite) making the point that Mancini spent his first season at City – where he also failed to get into the Champions League – making sure they were very good defensively, then built on going forward. Rafa spent the first two seasons getting us the best defence in Europe, and even whilst scoring more, we weren’t this good going forward (nor were City IMHO). Houllier did the same thing as well. Mourinho does it as well usually. A lot of managers build teams from the back. At the moment we’ve got the best defensive record in the league, and for my money, the best balanced defence since I’ve been watching the club. I think we’ve had better individuals in certain positions, but we haven’t had a defence where each individual is so comfortable in a 1-vs-1 situation, which I think bodes much better than our previous defences for playing attacking football.

So yeah, before I completely veer off Mt Tangent. I don’t go along with throwing the “it’s just a work in progress” away as a lame excuse, or being aggravated by it given when using it in context to the other teams around us. Really, we can only focus on ourselves at the moment. I think we’re moving forward pretty fucking quickly, as we should be given the resources. Maybe you don’t, or maybe you don’t think it’s quick enough relative to those around us, but we can’t control that.

I've spent the last hour writing my post in between watching Hollyoaks, finally get round to posting and then find that you have already absolutely nailed it.

[Dr Manhattan]

I included you mate not ‘cos of anything you’ve written tonight, but because of a post I saw you make the other day (on the main board I think) where you were arguing that it has to be this season. I think it was after Alan_F made reference to our co-efficient in Europe falling with another season out. For what it’s worth, I agree with you about a few of the posters who I think we’re both too kind to mentioned by name, but I’m pretty sure we’d come up with the same list of four or five if pushed.

I think you’re using the context of the other teams and not looking at whether we ourselves are improving, and that’s what I disagree with. I’m not saying the others aren’t a team in transition. United, Arsenal and Chelsea all are. And United and Arsenal are showing it on the pitch. Chelsea seem to be going back and forth deciding whether they’re going to commit to that transition or not.

My point is that you’re saying we’ve got to do this and we’ve got to do it now or we’re going to fall away. You’re judging off what’s going on around us and not ourselves. We’re obviously a better team. And we’re obviously in transition. Whether you like that or Jaffod finds it difficult to palate doesn’t really matter does it. I don’t know about United, but I checked this – I think it was after the Swansea match – and roughly half of our match day squads are made up of players who haven’t been at the club a year. That wasn’t including Doni either. Nor was it including Spearing, Kelly and to a lesser extent Flanagan and Robinson when they’re involved. How many players who are actually involved for us aren’t new? Lucas, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Carragher, Kuyt, Maxi, Gerrard, Aurelio. I don’t think Gerrard’s managed 5 games under Kenny either. I’m not using it as an excuse. I think it’s too legitimate to be an excuse. The turnover of players in the last 12 months has been immense. So whether it sits well or not, the argument that we’re in transition has validity.

Let’s get this right. You may think that we need to get Europe this season, for a number of valid reasons, but the owners did put a time table on it themselves just last year. People have run with them saying we should be aiming for top four (which we should, and we clearly are, even if we’re falling short presently). They said on the LFCTV channel that their view of it is as a three year project. Whether that sits too close to Houllier’s Five Year Plan or whatever else, but that’s what they said. Coincidentally Kenny has a three year contract at the moment.

When does it stop being a work in progress? I’m not going to say when. People make up their own minds about that. I thought after 6 years that it was Rafa, most on here didn’t. People will decide when they do. I do think that it’s unfair as hell to burden Kenny with this pressure of having to make-do double quick because others have taken so long. He’s six months into his job proper, and I think we’re quite fortunate that we’ve already got his team sorted. There’s a fair argument to say that the others, especially Rafa, spend a good two or three years waiting to get something resembling their own squad. Kenny’s had it in 6 months. So now the work of going forward should start.

I’ll say this as well. I think by doing so well with a team that squad back end of last season Kenny has made a small rod for his own back this. He gave people the false impression that we could go forward with a lot of that lot when I don’t think that was ever the intention, or possible personally. By doing what we did against Birmingham and Fulham I think people have come in with the expectation that we should be ripping teams apart from the off (and we are to an extent, just not finishing the chances).

I was listening to someone the other day (can’t remember who, just some press gobshite) making the point that Mancini spent his first season at City – where he also failed to get into the Champions League – making sure they were very good defensively, then built on going forward. Rafa spent the first two seasons getting us the best defence in Europe, and even whilst scoring more, we weren’t this good going forward (nor were City IMHO). Houllier did the same thing as well. Mourinho does it as well usually. A lot of managers build teams from the back. At the moment we’ve got the best defensive record in the league, and for my money, the best balanced defence since I’ve been watching the club. I think we’ve had better individuals in certain positions, but we haven’t had a defence where each individual is so comfortable in a 1-vs-1 situation, which I think bodes much better than our previous defences for playing attacking football.

So yeah, before I completely veer off Mt Tangent. I don’t go along with throwing the “it’s just a work in progress” away as a lame excuse, or being aggravated by it given when using it in context to the other teams around us. Really, we can only focus on ourselves at the moment. I think we’re moving forward pretty fucking quickly, as we should be given the resources. Maybe you don’t, or maybe you don’t think it’s quick enough relative to those around us, but we can’t control that.

See mate, that's all I'm asking for, some reasoned debate without people going mental at each other.

I appreciate the reply, and I don't want to give people the wrong idea here because I think somewhere people are misunderstanding what I've been saying. I'm not dismissing Kenny or the fact that it's his first season in charge, and neither am I writing off the season. This started by me simply asking why people who aren't happy with the way we've played tonight get shot to pieces, and where it's headed makes me look like I'm moaning about every aspect of the season so far, whereas that's really only come about because of answering others' questions.

What it boils down to for me is that I genuinely believe we're going to get left behind if we aren't smarter with who we buy, and I believe we'll start to really really see that next season if we don't qualify for the champions league. I think quite a few are really missing just how important that competition is to this club, and just how necessary it is that we're back there right away. I can't stress that enough to people who constantly say "give it time", as it's a view that I completely disagree with. We don't have time. Time is what teams like Aston Villa thought they probably had before they got completely set adrift. Time is what Chelsea and Arsenal don't have on their side now when competing against Man City. That luxury is gone, it's right out the fucking window. Someone above said that the 08/09 season came after several years of building. It did. It also came at a time when Spurs and Man City were nowhere. That time is now also over. We do NOT have the luxury of time anymore, and I cringe every time I hear someone talking about "next season" and "so-and-so is here for 5 years, give them time". Nah, I won't give them time because we really just do not have time to give them.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to be playing for the Europa League every season then yes, we have time. We can bed in several players all at once, hope that comes off, maybe even spend another £55m on two really average players just to secure 5th or 6th place, but don't expect us to be finishing in the top 4 because I'm afraid it's just not going to work out that way. It's one or the other for me - take our time and finish as also-rans, or be a bit more prudent and break back in to the top 4.

So what do I mean by "be more prudent"? Well, why the fuck do people keep saying we've bought potential in Andy Carroll for £35m? Why not play Suarez upfront on his own for 6 months (because let's face it, that's what we're doing now!) and then see who's available in the summer? And then try to sign someone who is actually currently nearer the finished article? Why did we suddenly decide that we're in a position to spunk £35m on a player who might take several years to actually blossom in to a top striker? Especially when our current set up doesn't even play to his strengths, doesn't even INCLUDE the guy. Sure you'll get some disagree with that and that's fine, but for me it's a really shitty move by the club, and it absolutely stunk of us just trying to make a statement and not much else. I would have preferred we waited, thought about it, got the right player for now and worried about the future at another time.

Anyway, for me it's about that luxury of time, and I truly believe we do not have it at all. Nothing to do with anything else really, I just come back to that thought whenever I see us play like shit, drop some points, and then see others harping on about time like we don't have several clubs pulling away from us constantly.

[Uruguayan36]

Reading that I really don't know what we're arguing about because i agree with every word. What pisses me off is people constantly trotting out the old 'work in progress' shite to paper over the cracks when quite simply we just aren't fucking good enough or rich enough to compete with the top sides. Just call a spade a spade for fucks sake.

You are right!
You know about football and are sincere with yourself.
Liverpool can not compete with the top sides in this moment.

[killer-heels]

It wasnt a great performance and the team was poor.

But as others have alluded to. We are much better than we were not long ago. We have a number of new players and if stories are to be believed, we will have many more soon.

It is annoying mentioning work in progress but you have to remember that those work in progresses were halted by either poor management or poor owners. We currently have a manager who knows what to do to win this league and a set of owners who at least who realise that success on the pitch is vital to wealth off it.

We have had a massive turnover in players but we have players who all have a future and had to start from a lower base than our rivals.

[john_mac]

John, I take it you went to the game tonight?
Could you just give us your opinion on the events on the field of play, how the midfield performed, individual performances etc.
And then seen as this thread has become more of an assessment on the season at the midway point, your opinion on the signings we have made in the summer.

Just briefly.
Because you tend to make these posts dismissing outright peoples response to the match/result/performance without giving your own.
I don't agree with a lot of what is being said tonight but there is some worth to the ideas being brought up.

yeah, undoubtedly unlike most in the thread, I did go the game.

Season so far? A mixed bag, certainly plenty of positives, we are a very good team to watch, have become a tight unit and have an excellent defensive record. That said I don't think that we are players around the forwards quickly enough, we have missed too many good chances and we have not the superiority tell in enough games.

The new arrivals have generally done well enough, Suarez and Enrique obviously outstanding while I think most would have looked for more from Carroll and Downing. Henderson looks n outstanding prospect.

What I do know is that I remember 12 months ago and sincd then we have brought in a new manager, have had a massive turnaround of personnel at the football club, have lost perhaps our two best players, have brought in half a team, that level of change is going go be difficult to translate to stability on the pitch.

Kenny is Liverpool to the core, he is moving us forward but it is not going to happen overnight. We have never had this level of first team overhaul, some through choice, some through necessity, overall they are settling relatively well but it will still take time.

l don't really give  fuck for people saying we've been patient for 22years, we've had plenty to cheer in that time, plenty of good times. I couldn't complain about anything.

We have to be a bit patient with a manager in his first season and a team in transition but still capable of dominating games, hopefully going forwards we will be able to better utilise that domination, but you need to put the building blocks in place to build from. When you look at the development over the twelve months it has been incredible, if we can continue along that path we won't go far wrong.

[RedHandGang]

Dalglish should think about stepping down at the end of the season.

Out of you or him I know who's opinion I would care for and here is a hint it's not yours. Maybe at the end of the season you should look for another team to follow more befitting of your fickle attitude.

[jaffod]

It's all about being realistic for me these days, mate. You get older, you sort of wise up and stop fooling yourself, or at least allowing yourself to be be fooled. 20 years of waiting for the league should be long enough to wise you up a bit.

I've long stopped kidding myself. I have no expectations of glory going into new seasons anymore, just hope that something might click and we win a pot or something. But i do expect us to do the basics right and i also expect us to learn from our mistakes but this season we've done neither and someone made a great post at H/T tonight when they said it's like watching the same game over and over again.
 We are no more a work in progress than any of the other teams desperately trying to cling onto the coat-tails of the 2 Manchester clubs and the other clubs above us - we just aren't fucking good enough and our position in the table reflects that - how long players have been here and how much we've spent is irrelevant because we've had the same revolving door policy for years along with paying top dollar for mediocre players who give us a few years average service before fucking off and fleecing somebody else.

[redbyrdz]

Bad game. We started really well but couldn't get the goal, then just got worse and worse. A lot of confusion on the pitch, players not in position, players not spotting runs (what had Bellamy done that nobody passed to him?). Adam had a nightmare, was nowhere when defending, gave the ball away going forward, missed the penalty. Our subs didn't have much impact either.

Our midfield continues to look weak without Lucas. We allowed Wigan lots of runs right through and didn't get the right tackles in. To much standing off, watching, and not closing down when defending for me. Has been the same in all our matches since Lucas' injury. So far, it hasn't cost us, but I'm really dreading City. Going forward we look much better, but today we seemed to have trouble deciding when to go wide and when to go through the middle.


Obviously, we continue to make opposition keepers look good. We should charge clubs for the extra goalie practice.

[Stan.]

The football was ok, but we let them back in the game too often.  End of the day if Kuyt, Johnson & Adam had scored when they really, really should have done, we'd all be saying 'job well done'.

Yet again poor finishing and another man of the freaking match goalkeeper has cost us points.

[Macphisto80]

This is it. Nobody was sold. There were no credit entries in the ledger whatsoever. You enormous fucking innumerate tit.

I see even your good self is losing your cool. Maddening, isn't it?

[Borninbethlehem]

We are a whole bucket of awesome and Kenny is THE man who has spent over 100million since coming and transformed us into a brilliant, goal scoring side, so people should stop complaining. Wigan are a formidable team so we did well to get a draw.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

This is it. Nobody was sold. There were no credit entries in the ledger whatsoever. You enormous fucking innumerate tit.

  

[steveeastend]

Do you honestly believe had we not of bought the players we did in the summer we would be in a better position than we are now?

As much as I believe that we did through away 4th by bringing in Kenny too late last season, (and I was whining on that for weeks), as much I believe we could be WAY further up the table with two, maybe three world class additions to our first eleven in summer, especially as we can concentrate on the league only this year.

So for that I honestly believe with even ONE more top scorer besides Suarez, Meireles still around and ONE more world class attacking midfielder we would have been able to win more games so far considering the way we played last season under Kenny.

Football is NOW, always is. Everything else is philosopy.

[royhendo]

I see even your good self is losing your cool. Maddening, isn't it?

I'm raging tonight mate - but mostly with the contrast between tea-time and 10pm. At tea-time we were taking on the world after the players' statement. But apparently it's different now. Only it's not.

[Red Genius]

See mate, that's all I'm asking for, some reasoned debate without people going mental at each other.

Without quoting the whole reply (although probably worthy of it! - reasoned debate)

What comes first?

The chicken or the egg?

What i mean by this question is, does the philosophy and desired approach take precedence or do the players at your disposal - building into the their most effective combination and style?

Whatever i believe, i think its clear Kenny has an ideal of how he expects a Liverpool football team to play under him, as a result every day, week and month in training is geared up to getting his players to perform in that particular style, you know - the ole pass and move groove. Its fairly evident in watching us today against a game the same time last year how far our footballing game has developed.

The point you raise is whether the players at our disposal are able to deliver the vision Kenny envisions, right? - unless i'm very much mistaken! We all describe him as the king, but not even god could shuffle our pack of players in twelve months from a hoof it and hope squad to a team capable of replicating the pass and move mantra that was the core of all our success all those years ago.

This is the very definition of transition, at least in my opinion anyhow.

[RedRaj]

See mate, that's all I'm asking for, some reasoned debate without people going mental at each other.

I appreciate the reply, and I don't want to give people the wrong idea here because I think somewhere people are misunderstanding what I've been saying. I'm not dismissing Kenny or the fact that it's his first season in charge, and neither am I writing off the season. This started by me simply asking why people who aren't happy with the way we've played tonight get shot to pieces, and where it's headed makes me look like I'm moaning about every aspect of the season so far, whereas that's really only come about because of answering others' questions.

What it boils down to for me is that I genuinely believe we're going to get left behind if we aren't smarter with who we buy, and I believe we'll start to really really see that next season if we don't qualify for the champions league. I think quite a few are really missing just how important that competition is to this club, and just how necessary it is that we're back there right away. I can't stress that enough to people who constantly say "give it time", as it's a view that I completely disagree with. We don't have time. Time is what teams like Aston Villa thought they probably had before they got completely set adrift. Time is what Chelsea and Arsenal don't have on their side now when competing against Man City. That luxury is gone, it's right out the fucking window. Someone above said that the 08/09 season came after several years of building. It did. It also came at a time when Spurs and Man City were nowhere. That time is now also over. We do NOT have the luxury of time anymore, and I cringe every time I hear someone talking about "next season" and "so-and-so is here for 5 years, give them time". Nah, I won't give them time because we really just do not have time to give them.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to be playing for the Europa League every season then yes, we have time. We can bed in several players all at once, hope that comes off, maybe even spend another £55m on two really average players just to secure 5th or 6th place, but don't expect us to be finishing in the top 4 because I'm afraid it's just not going to work out that way. It's one or the other for me - take our time and finish as also-rans, or be a bit more prudent and break back in to the top 4.

So what do I mean by "be more prudent"? Well, why the fuck do people keep saying we've bought potential in Andy Carroll for £35m? Why not play Suarez upfront on his own for 6 months (because let's face it, that's what we're doing now!) and then see who's available in the summer? And then try to sign someone who is actually currently nearer the finished article? Why did we suddenly decide that we're in a position to spunk £35m on a player who might take several years to actually blossom in to a top striker? Especially when our current set up doesn't even play to his strengths, doesn't even INCLUDE the guy. Sure you'll get some disagree with that and that's fine, but for me it's a really shitty move by the club, and it absolutely stunk of us just trying to make a statement and not much else. I would have preferred we waited, thought about it, got the right player for now and worried about the future at another time.

Anyway, for me it's about that luxury of time, and I truly believe we do not have it at all. Nothing to do with anything else really, I just come back to that thought whenever I see us play like shit, drop some points, and then see others harping on about time like we don't have several clubs pulling away from us constantly.

If I may say, this is bang on.  The days of building a legacy over 5-8 years are no longer.  If you want to attract good players (and keep them) you need CL football along with the extra finance that you get from the competition to pay for top players' wages. I don't think we can underestimate what those leeching parasites (agents) are doing to good players.  I perceive that they constantly unsettle their players about their prime and playing CL football etc. 

The further and further we slip away from it, the vicious circle of mediocrity creeps in and we will become like Villa.  Every penny counts in the transfer market and we have spent a lot of money on Downing, Henderson and Carrol with little apparent improvement in these areas of the team whereas the value has come from Enrique and Suarez. 

[1021]

Can you make an honest assessment though not yet quite halfway through the season in which we have recouped more points and yet  Stevie has hardly played and Lucas is out for the season, as for compare him with recent ones check the squad Roy left him with!

Poulsen - Adam or Henderson upgrade
Raul or Albert - Henderson upgrade
No wideman at all or maybe Joe Cole- Downing an upgrade and will become more of one by the end of the season
Konchesky - Enrique different class upgrade

Ngog/ Babel - Carroll- still an upgrade

Sulky want out Torres - Suarez definitely upgrade

By the way Kenny wanted both young and downing but downing was first choice!

That upgrade system you are using is exactly what you were moaning about Rafa doing with left backs.
And I agreed with it then and I agree with it now, though obviously we have a hell of a lot more financial support from the owners that our previous manager did (intentionally forgetting Hogdson ever happened).

Now while I agree with the fact that we have made upgrades in all departments as you have listed, save for the N'Gog/Babel instead of Carroll because I personally don't think we are better off having got shut of both of them for Andy (as of yet) and that is before you consider finance. If for no other reason than the fact if there is one thing our squad lacks aside from clinical finishing it is pace and they had it.

But...
1. We shouldn't be viewing improving on the dross accumilated by Hodgson and Purslow an achievement. At least not for a man of Kenny's footballing knowledge. He could have asked his former teammates to throw in a shift for us at left back and centre midfield and they'd have been more effective than Poulsen and Konchesky.
2. You cannot make a conclusive assessment of players at this stage but you can make an honest one and I for the life of me cannot see Carroll at Anfield this time next year never mind banging in the goals. I am desperate for it, I spend hours arguing in his favour, on here, at the match, with friends and family. And at 35m he will draw scrutiny, having only scored 5 times for Liverpool, more assesment will come and with Kenny not playing him for more than ten minutes when we are chasing goals question marks over his future and his price tag are inevitable.
3. Steven Gerrard is a loss of course. But why on God's earth did we go into the season expecting him to be involved? He hasn't be the Steven Gerrard we knew and loved for two years now yet that squad was built with him in mind.
4. Lucas is the biggest loss we could face this year, as there is not another soul in the squad who can do his job to anything like the level Lucas performs it at. Why was this not addressed in the summer?

Kenny has got a lot right since he came back;
1. Style of play. It is great seeing us value possession.
2. The defence. It has the efficency of Rafa's great and good back fours with added flair and offensive threat.
3. Youth intergration. Kenny appreicates the talent coming out of the academy and is using it, and sensibly. There could be the temptation to over use the likes of Kelly but he is giving him game time while allowing his body, his game, tactical awareness etc. to develop.
4. The signings of Coates, Enrique, Henderson, Suarez, Adam, Bellamy are all positive ones, iomproving the squad a great deal.

And many more, but I want to post this in case we get locked.
The point being just as we will praise the good, we will question what looks to be a dodgy signing or tactical errors as we would any other manager.

[jaffod]

130000000 in two transfer windows. Exactly who apart from city and chelsea can spend that amount.

Erm, the fact we recouped nearly half of that in the first transfer window makes that argument redundant. And that's the difference, Chelsea and City can spend that sort of cash and still keep the players they already have whereas we have had to sell and balance the books before we spend it.

[Macphisto80]

I've long stopped kidding myself. I have no expectations of glory going into new seasons anymore, just hope that something might click and we win a pot or something. But i do expect us to do the basics right and i also expect us to learn from our mistakes but this season we've done neither and someone made a great post at H/T tonight when they said it's like watching the same game over and over again.
 We are no more a work in progress than any of the other teams desperately trying to cling onto the coat-tails of the 2 Manchester clubs and the other clubs above us - we just aren't fucking good enough and our position in the table reflects that - how long players have been here and how much we've spent is irrelevant because we've had the same revolving door policy for years along with paying top dollar for mediocre players who give us a few years average service before fucking off and fleecing somebody else.

But in retrospect, you can't deny that we have been extremely unlucky in front of the goal, and that is more or less the only real concern for us, which is staggering considering the state we were in under Hodgson just a little under a year ago. If you convert even half those chances that hit the wood work, then we're probably sitting about 3rd with a gap of only a few points. You have to say that considering how we were under Hodgson, the change to our football has been nothing short of drastic. There is no major surgery required here for us to start challenging. There are tweaks and a few more pieces of the jigsaw, but not wholesale changes. Remember, as soon as Rafa got sacked, people were claiming that it was the worst Liverpool squad in 50 odd years. Can you imagine if we had the Torres of '08 playing for us now? Where would we be in the league? Certainly better off, I'd imagine. I think it's hugely positive when you can look at the team and the league position and curse it due to bad luck and lack of good finishing, rather than thinking of replacing a manager and almost an entire outfit. Kenny has surpassed what was expected of him IMO. Now I'll just wait and see who we buy in January.

[GreatEx]

Juan Loco's post is spot on. I, too, feel frustration at our inability to score, but our defensive solidity bodes well for the future. Strange that we spent all that money on midfielders and a striker, yet 6m quid worth of left back and the phasing out of Carragher has turned our defense into a near-impenetrable fortress.

Games like today are stressful and infuriating, but as long as we keeping strangling the opposition attack (keep in mind that only Spurs have scored multiple times against us this season, and no one has scored multiple times when we've had 10 or more players on the pitch) we only need to get one of our bungling attacks to hold together and we have a result. The midfield and attack is only going to improve. A leaky defence is a much bigger problem than a misfiring attack.

Having said all that, I can't wait for Gerrard to return, for taking pens if nothing else. A malaise has clearly set in and all our players are shitting bricks when they stand at the spot. I can't remember Gerrard ever having a bad run from the penalty spot; every now and then a keeper would fluke a save, but he would step up for the next one with nerves of steel. Some serious testicle-growing is required in our current crop of spot kickers.

[jaffod]

This is it. Nobody was sold. There were no credit entries in the ledger whatsoever. You enormous fucking innumerate tit.

oh dear, just saw this and there was me trying to be kind.

[steveeastend]

Now I'll just wait and see who we buy in January.

Me too.

[john_mac]

Dalglish should think about stepping down at the end of the season.

Yeah....ffs where do they come from?

[John C]

..... Maybe you don’t, or maybe you don’t think it’s quick enough relative to those around us, but we can’t control that.

Good post Juan.

[keyo]

after 10 minutes my thought was this is too easy......and meant that as a worrying sign.....there was not alot of urgency, and the little mistakes being made around the park were indicative of a general malaise....we don't score early, then we go off the boil

that said, i am still in the glass half full corner, and see the solidity we are building as a positive foundation (however creaky we appeared tonight) with the quality in the final third being the missing ingredient

in terms of that, there are a few things at play.....firstly confidence is lacking with some players and the team overall......downing is the most obvious player suffering from it......the result is that most of our players are happy to not threaten the box and make runs beyond the ball, they are happier coming to collect and lay it off

this is further compunded by the style of play we are using, which is pass and move.....although it is the way forward it is effectively manisfesting now in a training exercise on the pitch, players wanting a touch making a run round to offer another pass bt effectively not going anywhere....we need to pull th eopposition around when doing this, but currently are not because we are playing in front of them

there are a few improvements we can make, but alot will be around confidence in the final third......but i do think we need to mix it up a bit....involve different players, encourage them to get beyond the forwards, take some risks up front.....and yes, use carroll differently.....get the play into and around the box with more players, get crosses in from better areas......don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but try and add a bit more variety......it does feel like we are doing the same thing, with the same outcome and complaining about our luck.....after a while, it is not about luck

[Carlito Roberto]

Take a point from that, started really well but faded. Two massive home games coming up, if we take 6 points (which we should do) we're back on track.

[firing squad]

That upgrade system you are using is exactly what you were moaning about Rafa doing with left backs.
And I agreed with it then and I agree with it now, though obviously we have a hell of a lot more financial support from the owners that our previous manager did (intentionally forgetting Hogdson ever happened).

Now while I agree with the fact that we have made upgrades in all departments as you have listed, save for the Ngog/Babel instead of Carroll because I personally don't think we are better off having got shut of both of them for Andy (as of yet) and that is before you consider finance. If for no other reason than the fact if there is one thing our squad lacks aside from clinical finishing it is pace and they had it.

But...
1. We shouldn't be viewing improving on the dross accumilated by Hodgson and Purslow an achievement. At least not for a man of Kenny's footballing knowledge. He could have asked his former teammates to throw in a shift for us at left back and centre midfield and they'd have been more effective than Poulsen and Konchesky.
2. You cannot make a conclusive assessment of players at this stage but you can make an honest one and I for the life of me cannot see Carroll at Anfield this time next year never mind banging in the goals. I am desperate for it, I spend hours arguing in his favour, on here, at the match, with friends and family. And at 35m he will draw scrutiny, having only scored 5 times for Liverpool, more assesment will come and with Kenny not playing him for more than ten minutes when we are chasing goals question marks over his future and his price tag are inevitable.
3. Steven Gerrard is a loss of course. But why on God's earth did we go into the season expecting him to be involved? He hasn't be the Steven Gerrard we knew and loved for two years now yet that squad was built with him in mind.
4. Lucas is the biggest loss we could face this year, as there is not another soul in the squad who can do his job to anything like the level Lucas performs it at. Why was this not addressed in the summer?

Kenny has got a lot right since he came back;
1. Style of play. It is great seeing us value possession.
2. The defence. It has the efficency of Rafa's great and good back fours with added flair and offensive threat.
3. Youth intergration. Kenny appreicates the talent coming out of the academy and is using it, and sensibly. There could be the temptation to over use the likes of Kelly but he is giving him game time while allowing his body, his game, tactical awareness etc. to develop.
4. The signings of Coates, Enrique, Henderson, Suarez, Adam, Bellamy are all positive ones, iomproving the squad a great deal.

And many more, but I want to post this in case we get locked.
The point being just as we will praise the good, we will question what looks to be a dodgy signing or tactical errors as we would any other manager.

excellent post.  I literally agree with every single word.

[Dr Manhattan]

I think most of these discussions should probably just be left to the round table threads really, as they're lost in here.

[Johnnyboy1973]

35 million would have got us Aguero.


........... and back on track.

[U13]

And here is the voice of reason.

Some are expecting too much too soon, after years in the wilderness ask yourself how long it took Mr Alex Ferguson to get United back into contention, and whether you like it or not he will be considered one of the best domestic managers in this country.

Patience is hard to come by these days. Of course we're all impatient we've already waited for so long to get back to where we would love to be, but 12months.. no really 6months with this squad.... is that really a period of time long enough to expect the results asked of them? The fact we are clearly improving in terms of performance should be encouraging, the fact we haven't achieved the results is, for me, harsh to lay purely at the feet of the players. The blue print takes time to produce, weeks, months, years on the training ground to implement.

I recall Rafa famously claiming at around this point in his tenure we were only 40% where he wanted us to be, imagine if we were only 40% of where Kenny wants us to be, hell imagine if we're already 75% where Kenny would want us to be?

I agree with this to an extent but I suppose you've got to take into account the starting point of each manager which is what they inherited.

As a club we were in a mess when Kenny took over and he did a fantastic job of getting everybody back on side but I still maintain that given the talent we had within the squad we were massively under achieving. I think the wholesale changes in the summer were a gamble that we didn't need to take and whilst I  understand why he did it I don't think all the players he got in were best equipped to deal with the level of expectation of being at LFC.

apart from accommodating new personnel we're also trying to find a style of play that suits the players we have and that's what makes me think we're going to have quite a long wait before this squad starts performing consistently to the standard that will enable us to get near where we need to be.

I understand people saying we should only focus on what we're doing but we don't exist in a vacuum and the progress being made by other clubs does impact us, if we persist with the mantra 'it will come, it will come' with nothing but hope as reasoning there's a likelihood we'll get left behind. I think we've made some shrewd buys but we've made some questionable ones, where we go from here is the most important thing.

[john_mac]

I think most of these discussions should probably just be left to the round table threads really, as they're lost in here.

Like me, in fact.

[1021]

yeah, undoubtedly unlike most in the thread, I did go the game.

Season so far? A mixed bag, certainly plenty of positives, we are a very good team to watch, have become a tight unit and have an excellent defensive record. That said I don't think that we are players around the forwards quickly enough, we have missed too many good chances and we have not the superiority tell in enough games.

The new arrivals have generally done well enough, Suarez and Enrique obviously outstanding while I think most would have looked for more from Carroll and Downing. Henderson looks n outstanding prospect.

What I do know is that I remember 12 months ago and sincd then we have brought in a new manager, have had a massive turnaround of personnel at the football club, have lost perhaps our two best players, have brought in half a team, that level of change is going go be difficult to translate to stability on the pitch.

Kenny is Liverpool to the core, he is moving us forward but it is not going to happen overnight. We have never had this level of first team overhaul, some through choice, some through necessity, overall they are settling relatively well but it will still take time.

l don't really give  fuck for people saying we've been patient for 22years, we've had plenty to cheer in that time, plenty of good times. I couldn't complain about anything.

We have to be a bit patient with a manager in his first season and a team in transition but still capable of dominating games, hopefully going forwards we will be able to better utilise that domination, but you need to put the building blocks in place to build from. When you look at the development over the twelve months it has been incredible, if we can continue along that path we won't go far wrong.

Thanks John, agree with that.
We are a good footballing team, but obviously frustrating. We have battered sides at Anfield and away from home but we have yet to beat/embarrass sides the way we are capable of doing.

We are a team in transition, a lot of upheaval.
While people state that United and City experience similar turnover of players yet are successful you have to note that we have had managerial upheaval and boardroom upheaval (to put it mildly) to contend with also. And even though we no have financial clout it doesn't match either Manc's or Chelsea.

I have full faith in Kenny to guide this transition and take it to the final level and bring domestic 'success' we have craved for 2o odd years.
And I agree with your assessment of the main signings that we have made.

However I do understand where people are coming from, and there are concerns and frustration and there are worse places to vent them than on a internet forum that matters nothing in the real world. It is just discussion. Some of it very good, intresting, considered. Some of it rash. Some of it I disagree with but I still see where people are coming from and do share their concerns if not to the same degree or about the same players.

I have never seen Liverpool win the league title yet I have only had one 'bad' season supporting Liverpool. I have seen us travel the continent and batter sides, I have watched incredible teams come to Anfield and be put to the sword. I have been lucky enough to visit incredible stadiums and celebrate magical nights. I have no complaints, obviously I would love more success but I don't consdider myself hard done by to support Liverpool in it's more barren spell.

A lot of people on here 'criticising' Kenny or the Club trust in him but are treating him as they would any manager, in fact it is still clear people are 'holding back' and rightly so because of who our manager is. But Kenny has never asked for special treatment, he has earned it, and he will get it, but he isn't bothered by a bit of internet chatter and so long as it is respectful and considered it doesn't matter.

All this wait will be worth it. But there isn't a lot of outlandish stuff in here tonight.

[john_mac]

35 million would have got us Aguero.


........... and back on track.

and 440,000 could have got us Dalglish

[NOTBORNIN1982]

35 million would have got us Aguero.


........... and back on track.

What's the point in that comment?

[Macphisto80]

35 million would have got us Aguero.


........... and back on track.

Yeah, on paper, perhaps? Again, that's just wishful thinking, and an all too myopic and simplistic way of rationalising an opinion for some. Do you think it's just that simple to put a bid in and expect to land a player just because you bid big bucks? What about other variables like side deals, personal demands like wages etc. There's a hell of a lot more than just plopping down 35 million and expecting a player to sign. What if City say "35 million. HAHAH, fuck off Liverpool. We go 60 million and 200k a week and a Ferrari. Top that!!" What do you do then? Aye, thought so.

[Mutton Geoff]

I think most of these discussions should probably just be left to the round table threads really, as they're lost in here.

true tomorrow is a better time to mull over this result.

[gandalf50]

This is it. Nobody was sold. There were no credit entries in the ledger whatsoever. You enormous fucking innumerate tit.

Please don't bring that tired argument up. No matter what way you look at it we were able to spend this amount. It doesn't matter that a percentage was generated from player sales or wages being taken off the books through the loans. This is what we spent.
Ask O'neill how much he got from the sales of Barry, Milner etc. How much did purple nose get from the Ronaldo sale?
The manager is being backed to the hilt and if Carrol does not work out he will have bought the biggest turkey in the history of the club.

[Dan_L]

Happy Christmas.