Author Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?  (Read 154413 times)

Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2240 on: January 19, 2011, 11:14:23 PM »
lol I rate your opinion of my posts as much as I rate your knowledge of the game of football.  With the way your opinion flip flops to keep yourself amused on this thread Im amazed most of the decent posters have theft patience with you.

My opinion have not 'flip-flopped' at all, but I wouldn't expect you to actually provide any evidence of this..

Quote
If you had even a little decent argument it would make it a decent debate but the best you have done so far is suggest that Lucas is not committed because he does not get injured.

Leave it to the people who can actually state what they think coherently, please. I don't mind debating with them, even if it gets a little heated. You offer no debate, no opinions - you just increase the bad feeling in this thread.

Offline tboz

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2241 on: January 19, 2011, 11:14:28 PM »
if poulsen goes and lucas is happy to be a squad player then we should keep him but a get a better option. otherwise sell for a good fee.

Offline SMD

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2242 on: January 19, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »
Seems you have misunderstood what I was saying. I never once mentioned "crunching tackles". You've made that bit up yourself.

By 'committing oneself', I'm talking about everything. Often, it's a player stretching for the ball, or pushing his body beyond the limit in some other way, such as sprinting. Of course Torres doesn't go into crunching tackles - he's not a DM. Why assume I was just talking about tackling? Bizarre.

We see time and time again, a player injuring himself because he's lunged for a ball that he had no right to get to. That's a sign of commitment, and it's naive to believe that players only get injured because they have 'less than exceptional' fitness levels. It is often down to over-committing themself to the game - whether that be in tackling, sprinting, shooting, lunging.. It's also often down to being hit hard by an opposition player, which sometimes happens when you go in for balls which you have little chance of claiming.

Any one instance of being injured could be down to any one thing. But it's woefully naive to assume that it is a sign of Lucas being a model professional. Would love to hear Alan Shearer or Roy Keane's opinion on that, both 'model professionals' who got injured a lot, largely because they over-committed themselves.

Okay, what about Xabi Alonso, Redondo, Xavi, Pirlo, Guardiola, Hamann?
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2243 on: January 19, 2011, 11:15:58 PM »
I predict if we sold him and he developed as he should one or two of these muppets on here would say should never have sold him, certainly if you cannot see what he gives to the team now then i would say go back to your subbeteo games and practice formations etc!
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Offline Elzar

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2244 on: January 19, 2011, 11:17:42 PM »
Agger has been my favourite player for a while now, always look for him first on the team sheet, but Lucas is fast catching up!

The way he is so passionate on the pitch, his style of play, and his twittering makes me like him alot more!

Anyone who doesn't rate him needs to watch the game and not the pundits!
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Offline scatman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2245 on: January 19, 2011, 11:19:21 PM »
Since you're calling me out on trivial statistics that I got slightly wrong (saying Lucas played no part in the WC Qualification, when he actually played 2 out of 18), I'll do the same to you:

Spearing attempted 3 tackles, and was successful with 2 of them.

Wrong once again, you obviously don't watch us, not to disparage Jay but his debut was against Sunderland away, we lost to a beachball that day but Jay Spearing made the total of 0 tackles of which suprisingly 0 were successful.

Anyone got a video of that Man Utd game? Where Lucas tackled Scholes on the half way line, ran forward and laid it off to Dirk. Then in the 2nd half inside our box he sprayed out a pass to Dirk with the outside of his right boot, outpaced Evra (that slow bastard) and got the return to play in Ngog? El C i'm looking at you
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2246 on: January 19, 2011, 11:19:26 PM »
I'm done trying to explain lucas to people who don't have the capacity to understand it.

Time will tell about Lucas' potential and quality. He has already made massive strides and is continuously improving. In two years he will be the centerpiece of this midfield and the best part about it is Laergoth will have no fucking clue how it happened.

True. He could get slapped in the face with strawberry and vanilla ice-cream, yet still smell shit because the neighbour got two scoops to his one. He'd rather move goalposts night after night on RAWK than admit anything positive about the lad, even when it's staring him in the face. He says "if someone made a video of Xavi passing the ball sideways, you'd laugh" and when you post a video of Xavi passing the ball sideways, he laughs at you for comparing Lucas to Xavi.

When he's done shifting goalposts, he comes up with a physics thesis to explain why Lucas is the first to every ball, because he gets a head start, and attributes it to luck instead of anticipatory positioning and football instinct.

Honestly, with 6-8 years left at the very top in him, with his past pedigree, current rate of improvement, physical attributes, fantastic attitude, football nous, anticipatory positioning, possession oriented game, and work ethic, the sky is the limit for the lad.

Meanwhile, Laergoth will get muted and fuck off to some other interwebs site when Lucas lines up for Brazil in the World Cup on home soil. I just hope he'll still be a red when he starts looking more and more like Falcao.

Offline scatman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2247 on: January 19, 2011, 11:21:07 PM »
Okay, what about Xabi Alonso, Redondo, Xavi, Pirlo, Guardiola, Hamann?

Redondo got injured because he would never dive in for a tackle, always did standing tackle, that lad was never commiting to challenges, don't you know? That's how you get injured and your career gets ruined, by not diving into tackles like Laergoth thinks.
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2248 on: January 19, 2011, 11:23:23 PM »
Redondo got injured because he would never dive in for a tackle, always did standing tackle, that lad was never commiting to challenges, don't you know? That's how you get injured and your career gets ruined, by not diving into tackles like Laergoth thinks.

Learn to read. I never mentioned tackling.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread for now. Getting tiresome responding to all the posts directed at me. Some of you have made valid points. Well done.

Might return to this thread when Kenny's replaced Lucas.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2249 on: January 19, 2011, 11:23:24 PM »
Okay, what about Xabi Alonso, Redondo, Xavi, Pirlo, Guardiola, Hamann?

Those opinions don't count. He clearly said Alan Shearer and Roy Keane brilliant British and Corkish managers, the two of them - know everything about the game and players, they do. I'd listen to what they had to say about talent, scouting, and player potential.

Who cares what modern players think? It's the ex-players of yesteryear that we're interested in. And ones that speak ENGLISH (although that doesn't apply to Roy Keane).

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2250 on: January 19, 2011, 11:23:54 PM »
My opinion have not 'flip-flopped' at all, but I wouldn't expect you to actually provide any evidence of this..

"360 degrees turns all the time just to fit your replies, basically you are either obsessed with him or bored!

Leave it to the people who can actually state what they think coherently, please. I don't mind debating with them, even if it gets a little heated. You offer no debate, no opinions - you just increase the bad feeling in this thread.

You offer no debate because you are always right and everyone else is pretentious, so tell me just for fun this season who has been the best and most solid player who has anchored the midfield. the fact that he busts a gut playing two roles according to you is quite remarkable, the fact that he does this without stretching himself or tackling is amazing as well, so if we left him out who would you play instead out of the current squad and not some fantasy team! ::)

In fact you have to wonder why all the managers that pick him are such fools compared to your erudite opinion of him!
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2251 on: January 19, 2011, 11:24:06 PM »
Might return to this thread when Kenny's replaced Lucas.

Would you like to put your money where your mouth is?

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2252 on: January 19, 2011, 11:25:34 PM »
Learn to read. I never mentioned tackling.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread for now. Getting tiresome responding to all the posts directed at me. Some of you have made valid points. Well done.

Might return to this thread when Kenny's replaced Lucas.

ok see you in about 10 years then!

hope you had fun!
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Offline SMD

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2253 on: January 19, 2011, 11:26:06 PM »
Redondo got injured because he would never dive in for a tackle, always did standing tackle, that lad was never commiting to challenges, don't you know? That's how you get injured and your career gets ruined, by not diving into tackles like Laergoth thinks.

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Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2254 on: January 19, 2011, 11:33:46 PM »
My opinion have not 'flip-flopped' at all, but I wouldn't expect you to actually provide any evidence of this..

Leave it to the people who can actually state what they think coherently, please. I don't mind debating with them, even if it gets a little heated. You offer no debate, no opinions - you just increase the bad feeling in this thread.
You jump from one thing to another to have a go.  One minute its that he only outrun a player because he started running before him the next its that he is not committed because he does not get injured.  (Not a direct quote but heavily implied in your sarcastic response) .  As soon as one of your opinions is clearly debunked as being remotely true you move on to the next one.

You have plenty of opinions most clearly agenda driven to get your next laugh but add very little to the debate on any actual points.  As soon as someone picks you up on anything then you start to ridicule them then quickly change angle.   I see that your attacking my opinion now that I have picked you up on being on a wind up.  Well done, you do it far more eloquently than me but it does not change the fact that you are only here for a reaction. 
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Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2255 on: January 19, 2011, 11:36:58 PM »
ok see you in about 10 years then!

hope you had fun!
He will have at least 5 posts on this thread before this time tomorrow night.  He will not be able to help himself and will need to get his fix
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2256 on: January 19, 2011, 11:41:41 PM »
You jump from one thing to another to have a go.  One minute its that he only outrun a player because he started running before him the next its that he is not committed because he does not get injured.  (Not a direct quote but heavily implied in your sarcastic response) .  As soon as one of your opinions is clearly debunked as being remotely true you move on to the next one.

It's hard for the lad. He's all over the shop and logic's not his strong suit. Anyway, he's gone now. As we speak he's probably explaining to someone, somewhere else, how we know the world to be banana-shaped. 
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Offline scatman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2257 on: January 19, 2011, 11:52:19 PM »
Come on now Yorky, how can you not say the world is not banana-shaped, there's obviously 2 poles and the north pole as we know has become brown and hard because of global melting. The South is getting there but the icebergs there are slow, they don't have as much commitment as the ones in the North Pole, thats why they get injured easier and melt.
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Offline kkhaku

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2258 on: January 19, 2011, 11:54:17 PM »
The improvement that Lucas has shown recently has been phenomenal...but if he's going to establish himself as a starting central midfielder in a side that is challenging for silverware over the next few years - I expect more from him.

We've got the hard work, the reading of the game, the assuredness in possession, the courage, tenacity, and tough skin he's developed from years of abuse from our fanbase. Now as we are replacing some of the deadwood around him with real talent, I want to see him develop the advanced attributes of a midfielder's game. Dictating match tempo by releasing the ball early or holding on to it for a few seconds more than is necessary. Penetrative passes into the area, potshots from outside the box, a quick turn to open up space, timed runs into the area, a dip of the shoulder to beat the first man...etc etc.

Before anyone tells me that that's not Lucas' game - my reply is it has to be, for the sake of his advancement as a player. He's not the destroyer type like Masch (doesn't have the dynamic pace), and he's not the deep lying playmaker like Xabi (doesn't have the range). He's a proper box to box player with incredible stamina and a unbelievably calm presence on the ball. He's deceptively athletic, and as hard as nails.  But back in Brazil, he was a different player. It'd be nice to see him recall some of those attributes and become a direct contributor to our offense as well as our defense.
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Offline smig

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2259 on: January 19, 2011, 11:57:24 PM »
The improvement that Lucas has shown recently has been phenomenal...but if he's going to establish himself as a starting central midfielder in a side that is challenging for silverware over the next few years - I expect more from him.

We've got the hard work, the reading of the game, the assuredness in possession, the courage, tenacity, and tough skin he's developed from years of abuse from our fanbase. Now as we are replacing some of the deadwood around him with real talent, I want to see him develop the advanced attributes of a midfielder's game. Dictating match tempo by releasing the ball early or holding on to it for a few seconds more than is necessary. Penetrative passes into the area, potshots from outside the box, a quick turn to open up space, timed runs into the area, a dip of the shoulder to beat the first man...etc etc.

Before anyone tells me that that's not Lucas' game - my reply is it has to be, for the sake of his advancement as a player. He's not the destroyer type like Masch (doesn't have the dynamic pace), and he's not the deep lying playmaker like Xabi (doesn't have the range). He's a proper box to box player with incredible stamina and a unbelievably calm presence on the ball. He's deceptively athletic, and as hard as nails.  But back in Brazil, he was a different player. It'd be nice to see him recall some of those attributes and become a direct contributor to our offense as well as our defense.
I don't rate the player half as well as some on here do (as I'm sure most of you are well aware of by now ;) ), but I agree with the vast majority of this.
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Offline scatman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2260 on: January 20, 2011, 12:00:52 AM »
The improvement that Lucas has shown recently has been phenomenal...but if he's going to establish himself as a starting central midfielder in a side that is challenging for silverware over the next few years - I expect more from him.

We've got the hard work, the reading of the game, the assuredness in possession, the courage, tenacity, and tough skin he's developed from years of abuse from our fanbase. Now as we are replacing some of the deadwood around him with real talent, I want to see him develop the advanced attributes of a midfielder's game. Dictating match tempo by releasing the ball early or holding on to it for a few seconds more than is necessary. Penetrative passes into the area, potshots from outside the box, a quick turn to open up space, timed runs into the area, a dip of the shoulder to beat the first man...etc etc.

Before anyone tells me that that's not Lucas' game - my reply is it has to be, for the sake of his advancement as a player. He's not the destroyer type like Masch (doesn't have the dynamic pace), and he's not the deep lying playmaker like Xabi (doesn't have the range). He's a proper box to box player with incredible stamina and a unbelievably calm presence on the ball. He's deceptively athletic, and as hard as nails.  But back in Brazil, he was a different player. It'd be nice to see him recall some of those attributes and become a direct contributor to our offense as well as our defense.

You are right, I rate him a lot, I think he will keep on improving and he needs to do that as you say. We need to him to continue getting better as if he does he will contribute more to a team I expect to start climbing the table this season and in future seasons try to challenge for silverware again.
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Offline Vidocq

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2261 on: January 20, 2011, 12:14:08 AM »
ok see you in about 10 years then!

hope you had fun!

not really...next season he wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words
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Offline koolkamal

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2262 on: January 20, 2011, 12:15:52 AM »
not really...next season he wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

You're wrong.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2263 on: January 20, 2011, 12:23:56 AM »
True. He could get slapped in the face with strawberry and vanilla ice-cream, yet still smell shit because the neighbour got two scoops to his one. He'd rather move goalposts night after night on RAWK than admit anything positive about the lad, even when it's staring him in the face. He says "if someone made a video of Xavi passing the ball sideways, you'd laugh" and when you post a video of Xavi passing the ball sideways, he laughs at you for comparing Lucas to Xavi.

When he's done shifting goalposts, he comes up with a physics thesis to explain why Lucas is the first to every ball, because he gets a head start, and attributes it to luck instead of anticipatory positioning and football instinct.

Honestly, with 6-8 years left at the very top in him, with his past pedigree, current rate of improvement, physical attributes, fantastic attitude, football nous, anticipatory positioning, possession oriented game, and work ethic, the sky is the limit for the lad.

Meanwhile, Laergoth will get muted and fuck off to some other interwebs site when Lucas lines up for Brazil in the World Cup on home soil. I just hope he'll still be a red when he starts looking more and more like Falcao.

His form of argument begins with a conclusion, then works back towards proof and an introduction, which results in the inevitable conclusion as shown by the proof. Est ergo est.
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Offline smig

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2264 on: January 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM »
not really...next season he wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words
This wouldn't surprise me either.
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Offline Fiasco

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2265 on: January 20, 2011, 12:27:45 AM »
The only way some on here will ever be satisfied with our midfield is if it consists of Xavi, Alonso and Iniesta. Even then they would complain two of them are too old. The same way some will never be happy until we have Higuain, Aguero, Drogba and Torres fighting it out upfront for two spaces. Etc etc etc, you get the drift.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2266 on: January 20, 2011, 12:29:37 AM »
not really...next season he wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

Why? Are you going to abuse him on twitter until he gets tired of life in England and buggers off somewhere where he's appreciated?
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Offline Vidocq

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2267 on: January 20, 2011, 12:31:17 AM »
Why? Are you going to abuse him on twitter until he gets tired of life in England and buggers off somewhere where he's appreciated?

i just dont think he's that type of player that Kenny wants

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Offline Notayesman

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2268 on: January 20, 2011, 12:33:23 AM »
I think Laergoth is Kaizer, anyone familiar with Kaizer should recognise the guy by just flickin through his posts. God help us all if it's true.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2269 on: January 20, 2011, 12:33:34 AM »
i just dont think he's that type of player that Kenny wants

Have you seen any of the teams Dalglish has managed?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2270 on: January 20, 2011, 12:35:54 AM »
Because he knows about Uraguay.
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2271 on: January 20, 2011, 12:50:17 AM »
I would love to see leargoth debate rafa on Lucas's ability.

I'm guessing he's English and if so is the perfect illustration of why English football is in decline. They just don't think critically about the game. If a player doesn't make highlight reel plays then they go unnoticed and then at the end of the game they think that player made no significant contribution.

But see Lucas is an intelligent player. He knows that tricks and risky passes aren't necessary and therefore doesn't waste his time trying to appease idiots who are too simple-minded to look beyond the spectacular.

They think players like aascherano is world class when he can't even make the first
XI at his club.

Sure mascherano has a great engine and a great tackler but world class he is not. His passing is completely average. He has no incisiveness or vision whatsoever and in the holding role his distribution and passing don't add anything to the attack. The Xabi-Masch midfield worked because alonso's passing ability meant Masch only had to worry about the defensive side. When Masch had to take a larger share of the passing responsibility he wasn't very effective at all.

Masch is exclusively a DM. For top teams you only need a player like that for the toughest 20% of fixtures. In all other games a player like busquets or Lucas are better for the team as they keep possession very well while also being able to spot good attacking passes that progresses the attack. But they also hold their position well and cover the back four competently.

I loved Masch when he was here but he was too limited for a side that doesn't have quality in every attacking position as was the case last year.

But you know what, if u can only appreciate the obvious then there is no helping u. However, the best players understand that positioning and awareness are what allows them to have the biggest impact on the game. If a team has good positioning then they can dominate the game.

This is what Lucas is best at. As he grows in confidence he will become more and more assertive in attack.

Of course u are far too concerned with the distance and difficulty of the pass to actually look beyond that bullshit and look at the big picture.




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Offline redmark

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2272 on: January 20, 2011, 01:01:53 AM »
I'm guessing he's English and if so is the perfect illustration of why English football is in decline. They just don't think critically about the game.

No, there are no English Liverpool fans who rate Lucas. None. We're too thick.
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Offline new-red

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2273 on: January 20, 2011, 01:07:43 AM »
No, there are no English Liverpool fans who rate Lucas. None. We're too thick.


Lol. Kinda lumped everyone in there but it if the British media is an accurate reflection of public opinion then its fair to say that most do not rate the lad.
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2274 on: January 20, 2011, 01:08:55 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8XwEYbxMYF4?fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/8XwEYbxMYF4?fs=1</a>

Offline redmark

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2275 on: January 20, 2011, 01:09:07 AM »
Lol. Kinda lumped everyone in there but it if the British media is an accurate reflection of public opinion then its fair to say that most do not rate the lad.

The British media isn't an accurate reflection of anything.
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Offline scared_person

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2276 on: January 20, 2011, 01:10:30 AM »
That Laergoth fella must watch the games desperately hoping for Lucas to cock up, so he can back here to say I told you so.

He's been more or less our best player this season. Get him a new contract. Lucas that is, not Laergoth.

Offline new-red

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2277 on: January 20, 2011, 01:11:24 AM »
The British media isn't an accurate reflection of anything.


Well then there is really no need for them is there.
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Offline Strummer77

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2278 on: January 20, 2011, 01:51:55 AM »
Might return to this thread when Kenny's replaced Lucas.

Tired of this kind of crap. Does anyone honestly believe we're still the most knowledgable/best fans in the world?

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2279 on: January 20, 2011, 03:47:23 AM »
not really...next season he wont be here or he'll be here as bench warmer...mark my words

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