Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[redmark]

Agreed. See, Javier is a naturally intense player, combine that with great pace and agility and you have the perfect mix. Lucas, as hard as he works, isn't a naturally fierce player, he isn't naturally aggressive and it does show in how he plays. That doesn't mean to say I want him to man up or sprout his first pubic hair, but it means that, if he is to be primarily a defensive midfielder, or a ball winning midfielder, if you will, then aspects to his game, like aggression, like acceleration and like tenacity have to improve, in my humblest of opinions.

Fair points, but Mascherano's aggression and intensity had drawbacks, too - how many bookings and red cards? How many games missed through suspension?

[Sangria]

I don't think Mascherano could sit off. Anyway, first game of the season, lots of adrenalin, Hodgson himself said it would take time to get his tactical ideas (!) and shape across to the players. Did Lucas press under Rafa? Yes. As intensely as Mascherano? No, but then there might not be another player in the world who has his intensity.

Sissoko? The Juve fans loved him for singlehandedly making the midfield a no-go zone for the opposition.

[DAYDAY]

Because, sadly, they are largely clueless when it comes to the modern game.

John Aldrige,Tommy Smith,Ian St John,Ronnie Whelan
and quite a few others
Dalglish is from the same Era as Whelan followed by Aldrige

20.000 posts on an internet forum gives you the say over some
of the greatest players in Liverpool History

You realy do need to get out a little more sonny

[El Campeador]

Agreed. See, Javier is a naturally intense player, combine that with great pace and agility and you have the perfect mix. Lucas, as hard as he works, isn't a naturally fierce player, he isn't naturally aggressive and it does show in how he plays. That doesn't mean to say I want him to man up or sprout his first pubic hair, but it means that, if he is to be primarily a defensive midfielder, or a ball winning midfielder, if you will, then aspects to his game, like aggression, like acceleration and like tenacity have to improve, in my humblest of opinions.

Mascherano makes a big deal about his toughness. Lucas is a fierce fucker too, though, don't let his looks and demeanor fool you. Yesterday, he took a tackle that should have floored him. He looked like he was hurting, but he got up and kept going.

It's not the first time I've seen him do that. Essien fucking owned him one match early on in his career - beat him senseless in the middle off the middle of the park physically - but Lucas didn't hide. He just kept coming back for more. Again and again, Essien tackled him, and hurt him, and Lucas bounced up and kept coming back. At the end of the game, I remember smiling when Essien ran up to HIM and shook his hand.

Mind you, he was like 21 or 22 back then.

He's a tough little shit, Lucas. Look at how he's the first one to protect his teammates when the handbags come out. He never, ever backs down. Watch him the next match with that in mind, and let me know if you think differently.

[justsean]

Mascherano makes a big deal about his toughness. Lucas is a fierce fucker too, though, don't let his looks and demeanor fool you. Yesterday, he took a tackle that should have floored him. He looked like he was hurting, but he got up and kept going.

It's not the first time I've seen him do that. Essien fucking owned him one match early on in his career - beat him senseless in the middle off the middle of the park physically - but Lucas didn't hide. He just kept coming back for more. Again and again, Essien tackled him, and hurt him, and Lucas bounced up and kept coming back. At the end of the game, I remember smiling when Essien ran up to HIM and shook his hand.

Mind you, he was like 21 or 22 back then.

He's a tough little shit, Lucas. Look at how he's the first one to protect his teammates when the handbags come out. He never, ever backs down. Watch him the next match with that in mind, and let me know if you think differently.

very interesting comments. have to keep that in mind next time I watch him.

[Seebab]

Mascherano makes a big deal about his toughness. Lucas is a fierce fucker too, though, don't let his looks and demeanor fool you. Yesterday, he took a tackle that should have floored him. He looked like he was hurting, but he got up and kept going.

It's not the first time I've seen him do that. Essien fucking owned him one match early on in his career - beat him senseless in the middle off the middle of the park physically - but Lucas didn't hide. He just kept coming back for more. Again and again, Essien tackled him, and hurt him, and Lucas bounced up and kept coming back. At the end of the game, I remember smiling when Essien ran up to HIM and shook his hand.

Mind you, he was like 21 or 22 back then.

He's a tough little shit, Lucas. Look at how he's the first one to protect his teammates when the handbags come out. He never, ever backs down. Watch him the next match with that in mind, and let me know if you think differently.

Agreed. He clobbered someone on Sunday and the fans roared when he did it. It's what was needed to ignite that typical derby feeling.

Funny how are most frightening looking players i.e. Skrtel and Soto seem to wimp out a lot of times or go to ground when Lucas rarely does this.

[El Campeador]

Agreed. He clobbered someone on Sunday and the fans roared when he did it. It's what was needed to ignite that typical derby feeling.

Funny how are most frightening looking players i.e. Skrtel and Soto seem to wimp out a lot of times or go to ground when Lucas rarely does this.

He had two crunching tackles that would have had Souey out his seat, but in my opinion, people miss the bigger picture. He's more of a Didi style midfielder than a Mascherano style terrier. Hamann used to glide around the pitch, looking deceptively slow, lazy or even geriatric at times. Lots of "fans" wondered what the hell Didi brought to the side too. The thing about Didi was that you knew what you were missing when he wasn't playing, just like Lucas. Take him out the side, and we maintain less and lose more possession. Both Didi and Lucas hold the ball, and deliver it to others in more comfortable positions. The ability that these players have that allows them to recycle the ball over and over again, giving their teammates more chances at scoring, is positioning. Lucas isn't Falcao, not yet anyway, but he does have one attribute that is World Class - positioning.

Against Blackpool at one point, he attempted a tackle in the opposition half. He did not win the ball. He shadowed the player with the ball back to about 10 yards outside his own penalty area. He cocked his head back for a split second at Reina, and then, as soon as the ball went to our left side, he took off like a rat up a fucking drainpipe straight towards our goal. There were 3 Blackpool players against the 2 Liverpool centrebacks, and Lucas ended up clearing the ball off the fucking line.

If you're a playmaker, an attacking midfielder, or a pure winger, you're going to lose the ball more often. That goes with the position. Not every Torres touch ends in a goal; Gerrard is famous for his Hollywood balls that end in Row Z, and even Raul gave the ball away 17 times against Everton. Yes they score more, no doubt, but someone has to balance the books.

Lucas is that player. I myself am a massive fan of his. We picked him up for 6 lousy million the season after he won the Brazilian Player of the Year. He's young, he was cheap, he's never injured, he wins the ball and doesn't give it away, he doesn't back down, he plays for Brazil, and he knuckled down and got better after being booed by his own fans at home while at the top of the table.

If you don't get Lucas, you don't get football. Yorky's Law.

[B.Red]

But that's tactical, not the players. Rafa had them hunting and pressing high up the pitch, in packs. Hodgson had them sitting off. Dalglish has made a start to pressing again, but so far it's generally only just into the opponents half and one player at a time. But it's tactical.

I saw the team sitting off for the first ten games or so but once Roy got enough stick for it he started having them press all the way up the pitch for sixty out of every ninety mins. Pity was that the instructions seemed to be lacking as we never made the interceptions you'd expect from all that pressing. Roy just couldn't put it right after all the damage and negativity he conjured up in the first quarter of the season. The team selections didn't help either.

And yes we are pressing better now, especially Torres. It's better since Kenny returned for me. Still not enough interceptions though.

[Sangria]

I saw the team sitting off for the first ten games or so but once Roy got enough stick for it he started having them press all the way up the pitch for sixty out of every ninety mins. Pity was that the instructions seemed to be lacking as we never made the interceptions you'd expect from all that pressing. Roy just couldn't put it right after all the damage and negativity he conjured up in the first quarter of the season. The team selections didn't help either.

And yes we are pressing better now, especially Torres. It's better since Kenny returned for me. Still not enough interceptions though.

Benitez was the master of geometry. This was one area where his love of computerised gizmos gave him the edge over more traditional managers, as visionary as they may have been.

[Mad Men]

Which Everton player took Lucas out in the second half in the middle of the pitch? He practically did a somarsault in the air...

[leivapool]

He's a tough little shit, Lucas. Look at how he's the first one to protect his teammates when the handbags come out. He never, ever backs down. Watch him the next match with that in mind, and let me know if you think differently.

Lucas has collected 2 yellow cards recently for protecting his team mates.  Now obviously it's not too clever getting yellow cards but it shows he is a real team player and not frightened.  I think one was against Bolton, Torres had been getting kicked all afternoon by Cahill.  Eventually Lucas went in to a tackle with him, and ran his studs striaght down his shin as if to say 'Mess with Torres, mess with me!'.  He also took one for the team against Diouf at Blackburn.

Has anyone ever seen Lucas 'bottle' a tackle he had a chance of winning?  He definitely doesn't try and tackle when he has no chance of winning like Masch did often, (getting booked in the preocess) and I've never seen him do a slide tackle, which is the Hollywood style of tackle.  But make no mistake, Lucas is a tough little cookie.

I actually think the fact that he doesn't have a tough reputation means he gets booked less, and gets away with tackles that Masch would have gotten pulled up for.

[Valery_Karpin]

Mascherano makes a big deal about his toughness. Lucas is a fierce fucker too, though, don't let his looks and demeanor fool you. Yesterday, he took a tackle that should have floored him. He looked like he was hurting, but he got up and kept going.

It's not the first time I've seen him do that. Essien fucking owned him one match early on in his career - beat him senseless in the middle off the middle of the park physically - but Lucas didn't hide. He just kept coming back for more. Again and again, Essien tackled him, and hurt him, and Lucas bounced up and kept coming back. At the end of the game, I remember smiling when Essien ran up to HIM and shook his hand.

Mind you, he was like 21 or 22 back then.

He's a tough little shit, Lucas. Look at how he's the first one to protect his teammates when the handbags come out. He never, ever backs down. Watch him the next match with that in mind, and let me know if you think differently.

What you're talking about there is his personality, though. As brave as he is, it doesn't make him a particularly tenacious or aggressive player. He doesn't cover ground intensely, he doesn't bite at opposition players and chirp away at them like Javier did. And, before people jump at me with the uber-pedantry seen on here, he does close down, he does tackle, he does work hard, but what I'm debating is the way it is done, his natural way of defending, his way of breaking down play, his way of pressuring the opposition. If you were to compare his way of defending to his fellow Brazilians, he's more like Gilberto than Felipe Melo, but, for us, we need him to be more like Melo than Gilberto, in my opinion.

[leivapool]

When brushing aside the question of being the best Brazilian midfielder in the PL, mentions Denilson and Sandro, and completely forgets Anderson.

He also forgot Ramirez of Chelsea who plays alongside him at the moment for Brazil!!!!  I put it down to nerves.  Must be hard to talk for an hour in a foreign language.  Although I was impressed with the span of his English.  He knows lots of words, although 'cherish' didn't appear to be one of them!!!!!!!!!!

I tweeted him about forgetting  Anderson  and he said "I did sometimes happens!!"

[bleedsred1978]

What you're talking about there is his personality, though. As brave as he is, it doesn't make him a particularly tenacious or aggressive player. He doesn't cover ground intensely, he doesn't bite at opposition players and chirp away at them like Javier did. And, before people jump at me with the uber-pedantry seen on here, he does close down, he does tackle, he does work hard, but what I'm debating is the way it is done, his natural way of defending, his way of breaking down play, his way of pressuring the opposition. If you were to compare his way of defending to his fellow Brazilians, he's more like Gilberto than Felipe Melo, but, for us, we need him to be more like Melo than Gilberto, in my opinion.

I do think he is getting better with experience though. He used to have a nasty habit of running into the back of people and giving away silly free kicks in dangerous areas which he seems to have cut out of his game for the most part this season.

Good sign for me that he is learning all the time.

[scatman]

So when I said: the game has reached its limit tactically, all it does now is push the boundaries physically, why was I wrong when all you say is it is changed to counter physical difference?

If you can, mate, buy the December 2010 issue of champions and read the article titled "Total Victory". It discusses the development of football in Italy, looking at the way Total Football influenced Cantenaccio, and how many sides throughout the years tried to combine both, using things like zonal marking, 4-3-3's, short, quick passing and having versatile players that can slot in anywhere.

I forget Michels is no longer with us? Yeah, of course I did. Go on, tell me what I'm having for my tea tomorrow as well.

So with the boundaries of physicality of the game extending you don't think it has an effect on tactics? I'm pretty sure Catenaccio was around before Total Football, considering the Italian sides used it to great effect in the 60s. Total football supposedly rendered this obsolete, of course that didnt stop Gentile, Baresi, Maldini etc to be versed in that art. You could say the Milan team used a style of both.

I'll give you a little example of how physical side of the game improving has improved tactics. The Ajax/Holland sides, the Milan side of 87-89, the Valencia side of 2001-2004 and the Barcelona side of 2005-2007 all pressed well, however they pressed in stages. Taking breathers in the game as they weren't physically able to press continously throughout a game. The Barcelona team of today, they press as soon as they lose the ball, they press throughout the game, the don't take rest periods to allow the other team dominance of the ball. A tactical change which they are able to do due to the changes in physical preparation of the players.

B-Red on another note, we never pressed under Roy. Never.

[pistolpete]

So with the boundaries of physicality of the game extending you don't think it has an effect on tactics? I'm pretty sure Catenaccio was around before Total Football, considering the Italian sides used it to great effect in the 60s. Total football supposedly rendered this obsolete, of course that didnt stop Gentile, Baresi, Maldini etc to be versed in that art. You could say the Milan team used a style of both.

I'll give you a little example of how physical side of the game improving has improved tactics. The Ajax/Holland sides, the Milan side of 87-89, the Valencia side of 2001-2004 and the Barcelona side of 2005-2007 all pressed well, however they pressed in stages. Taking breathers in the game as they weren't physically able to press continously throughout a game. The Barcelona team of today, they press as soon as they lose the ball, they press throughout the game, the don't take rest periods to allow the other team dominance of the ball. A tactical change which they are able to do due to the changes in physical preparation of the players.

B-Red on another note, we never pressed under Roy. Never.

Which is possibly a reason why we've looked tired in each 2nd half of our first 3 games under Kenny?

[Mad Men]

Rafa. Master of pressing and closing down opposition players early in their half.

[The 5th Benitle]

B-Red on another note, we never pressed under Roy. Never.

That's because the only pressing he knew involved a Corby Trouser Press.

There was one occasion, when Gerrard came on for the European hattrick. It was weird, it was obviousl to me that the tactics changed but that Roy hadn't implemented it. Completely different half to any other we played under him. That goal when Lucas tackled to create an assist was remarkable for that reason.

[leivapool]

That's because the only pressing he knew involved a Corby Trouser Press.

There was one occasion, when Gerrard came on for the European hattrick. It was weird, it was obviousl to me that the tactics changed but that Roy hadn't implemented it. Completely different half to any other we played under him. That goal when Lucas tackled to create an assist was remarkable for that reason.

Great tackle that - oh no I forgot, Lucas can't tackle 

[Valery_Karpin]

So with the boundaries of physicality of the game extending you don't think it has an effect on tactics? I'm pretty sure Catenaccio was around before Total Football, considering the Italian sides used it to great effect in the 60s. Total football supposedly rendered this obsolete, of course that didnt stop Gentile, Baresi, Maldini etc to be versed in that art. You could say the Milan team used a style of both.

I'll give you a little example of how physical side of the game improving has improved tactics. The Ajax/Holland sides, the Milan side of 87-89, the Valencia side of 2001-2004 and the Barcelona side of 2005-2007 all pressed well, however they pressed in stages. Taking breathers in the game as they weren't physically able to press continously throughout a game. The Barcelona team of today, they press as soon as they lose the ball, they press throughout the game, the don't take rest periods to allow the other team dominance of the ball. A tactical change which they are able to do due to the changes in physical preparation of the players.

B-Red on another note, we never pressed under Roy. Never.

Cantenaccio was around before Total Football, that's how Total Football influenced it, by changing the manner in which football was viewed and how teams play. As we all know, Cantenaccio translates to 'padlock', and we've seen some great Italian sides over the years use that style of play to win, but the Total Football, things like moving around as a team, having versatile players able to fill in almost anywhere, all influenced the progression of Italian football, highlighted especially by Sacchi's Milan, that had a strong blend of Total Football and Cantenaccio in it.

However, just because sides are able to press more, doesn't mean that the game has developed tactically. When I said the game has developed physically, what did you think I meant? Obviously, things like players being quicker is obvious, but playing being able to work harder, more intensely and play 90 minutes of high-octane football is an obvious development physically. It's not a development tactically, it's allowed sides to consistently push on their tactics for 90 minutes, but tactics conjured up today, like zonal marking, passing triangles, pass and move, counter-attack, long balls, short balls, team-closing down, wide forwards, wingers cutting in, formations, everything, has all been done before, that area of the game doesn't grow anymore, there aren't any tactics left to be developed or made up, all that is left is for the game to grow athletically.

[steveeastend]

So with the boundaries of physicality of the game extending you don't think it has an effect on tactics? I'm pretty sure Catenaccio was around before Total Football, considering the Italian sides used it to great effect in the 60s. Total football supposedly rendered this obsolete, of course that didnt stop Gentile, Baresi, Maldini etc to be versed in that art. You could say the Milan team used a style of both.

I'll give you a little example of how physical side of the game improving has improved tactics. The Ajax/Holland sides, the Milan side of 87-89, the Valencia side of 2001-2004 and the Barcelona side of 2005-2007 all pressed well, however they pressed in stages. Taking breathers in the game as they weren't physically able to press continously throughout a game. The Barcelona team of today, they press as soon as they lose the ball, they press throughout the game, the don't take rest periods to allow the other team dominance of the ball. A tactical change which they are able to do due to the changes in physical preparation of the players.

B-Red on another note, we never pressed under Roy. Never.

That´s an interesting point!

The weak point in Dalglish`s system compared to Rafa´s is to be the movement of the team as a unit in defense.

To me, it´s not "three dimensional" enough.

"I am not gonna blame the player making a mistake. I am gonna blame the one who should be there to back him up and won´t do this properly." Jürgen Klopp- BVB manager


The way the team is set up makes it not easy to outnumber for proper pressing. With Kenny, it´s more of a "high line" pressing...

[lfcstu17]

I am a big fan. His attitude is just great. How many players would take the amount of abuse from fans like he did , and then still come out and play his heart out. It has paid off massively for him , with fans now supporting him.

He has also arguably been our best player this season.  He isn't world class but he is a player i am proud to have in our team. Also the trio of him , Raul and Gerrard seems to be very effective ,  just need two decent wingers and the midfield is sorted.

[new-red]

I am a big fan. His attitude is just great. How many players would take the amount of abuse from fans like he did , and then still come out and play his heart out. It has paid off massively for him , with fans now supporting him.

He has also arguably been our best player this season.  He isn't world class but he is a player i am proud to have in our team. Also the trio of him , Raul and Gerrard seems to be very effective ,  just need two decent wingers and the midfield is sorted.

That is the major problem. Our midfield trio is actualy very good and could rival anybody's midfield but the wide areas need the quality to help out the team cause right now we are expecting torres to score all our goals with nobody else really threatening.

[simesy]

I am a big fan. His attitude is just great. How many players would take the amount of abuse from fans like he did , and then still come out and play his heart out. It has paid off massively for him , with fans now supporting him.

He has also arguably been our best player this season.  He isn't world class but he is a player i am proud to have in our team. Also the trio of him , Raul and Gerrard seems to be very effective ,  just need two decent wingers and the midfield is sorted.

Thats how i feel.He's not world class but a very good player and because he's got guts,never hides and sticks up for his team mates(as in you dont fucking get away with fouling my mate)Yes proud of him he represents everything about what a liverpool player needs to be.Hope he continues his good progress.

[RyanBabel19]

Lucas is class. Still want to see him shot more from distance though, he's got a very good shot on him.

[Valery_Karpin]

That is the major problem. Our midfield trio is actualy very good and could rival anybody's midfield but the wide areas need the quality to help out the team cause right now we are expecting torres to score all our goals with nobody else really threatening.

It isn't, though. We had a midfield trio that could rival anybody's and we finished second, largely down to the quite stupendous form of that midfield trio. That midfield trio was only (arguably as well) bettered by Barcelona's. The only player in that midfield three that would walk into one of the top 5/6 teams is Gerrard, with the other two scrapping for squad roles.

I also don't believe they've been that good this year, Gerrard has been poor by his mightily high standards, Meireles has shown that he's still adapting and has been shifted around the midfield, whilst Lucas has tried, but hasn't shown the form or ability of a player good enough for a top 4 club, in my opinion. It doesn't mean he hasn't played well, I just don't believe he has it in him to succeed as a key player for a club with any kind of aspirations.

[common]

Lucas vs Everton (heading)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWerX1JONFw

[Yorkykopite]

Lucas vs Everton (heading)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWerX1JONFw

All very well, but not one of those headers went in the goal. Plus Fellaini's small and easily beaten in the air.

[Laergoth]

Lucas vs Everton (heading)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWerX1JONFw

Haha, nice. I like how most of his headers went straight to Everton players, and how he crashed into his team-mates a couple of times. And that he was beaten in the air sometimes by players shorter than him.

Top post, love it.

[Yorkykopite]

Haha, nice. I like how most of his headers went straight to Everton players, and how he crashed into his team-mates a couple of times. And that he was beaten in the air sometimes by players shorter than him.

Top post, love it.

You have Dirk as an avatar I see. That figures.

[The 5th Benitle]

Haha, nice. I like how most of his headers went straight to Everton players, and how he crashed into his team-mates a couple of times. And that he was beaten in the air sometimes by players shorter than him.

Top post, love it.

You do realise you're coming across as if you hate the player and don't want him to do well? And if so, do you realise by extension that this makes you come across as a complete cock?

[Laergoth]

You do realise you're coming across as if you hate the player and don't want him to do well? And if so, do you realise by extension that this makes you come across as a complete cock?

It's more like this:

The players who (I believe) are shite in our team should be seen to be shite. Otherwise, it is potentially to the detriment of the club.

I would love for Lucas to do well. I just think it's insane to label him as one of our best players, when everything he does smacks "Mediocrity".

If anything, ridiculing him and pointing out his mediocrity is the necessary antidote to those wildly distorting him as our best player.

But I have to say, he has mastered the Powder-Puff Header technique.

[The 5th Benitle]

It's more like this:

The players who (I believe) are shite in our team should be seen to be shite. Otherwise, it is potentially to the detriment of the club.

I agree. But Lucas is not one of them.

[Laergoth]

In addition: Having read some of the ridiculous mocking of Dirk Kuyt and Carragher in other threads, I don't feel it is out of order for me to mock a player I don't rate, as it seems to be par for the course on this forum.

[deadlybuzz]

Haha, nice. I like how most of his headers went straight to Everton players, and how he crashed into his team-mates a couple of times. And that he was beaten in the air sometimes by players shorter than him.

Top post, love it.

Ok, but watch it again, follow closely and you might see what the rest of us are seeing in that video.

[Laergoth]

Ok, but watch it again, follow closely and you might see what the rest of us are seeing in that video.

Haha. Let them speak for themselves. You tell us what you see, then!

[deadlybuzz]

In addition: Having read some of the ridiculous mocking of Dirk Kuyt and Carragher in other threads, I don't feel it is out of order for me to mock a player I don't rate, as it seems to be par for the course on this forum.

You could rise above it.

[Cribertinokes]

Ok, but watch it again, follow closely and you might see what the rest of us are seeing in that video.

Please don't try and reason with him, his logic and views will actually make your head hurt.

[Laergoth]

I'm 90% sure that the person posting that is not a Lucas fan, because:

a) Most of the headers were ineffective ones which went straight to Everton.

b) It also included about 3 clips of Lucas being beaten to the header.

Why would a Lucas fan post such a thing, when it would be better to compile some of the decent passes he made in the game, rather than his weak and ineffective headers?

Perhaps the one who posted it can give us some insight.

[GrkStav]

It's more like this:

The players who (I believe) are shite in our team should be seen to be shite. Otherwise, it is potentially to the detriment of the club.

I would love for Lucas to do well. I just think it's insane to label him as one of our best players, when everything he does smacks "Mediocrity".

If anything, ridiculing him and pointing out his mediocrity is the necessary antidote to those wildly distorting him as our best player.

But I have to say, he has mastered the Powder-Puff Header technique.

Should be seen by WHOM the way you believe they are ("shite")? What is "potentially to the detriment of the club"? That players who YOU believe are "shite" are not so seen by . . . posters on RAWK? How's that, potentially, to the detriment of the club?