Topic: Brian reade - an article that does public justice to Rafa's legacy (*)

[RJH]

I look at it this way: He had Hyypia, Carragher, Hamann, Gerrard, Alonso at their peaks, spent £20m on Mascherano, £20m on Keane and was able to get Torres. 6 years and he only got close to the top spots once... Legend? Not at this club, for me.

I'm struggling to write a proper response, because to be honest half of what you've said doesn't seem to have a point.

Those 5 players didn't have their peaks at the same time.
Hyypia and Hamann turned 31 just after Benitez arrived, around the same time Alonso was turning 23.
"had" also implies that he just got lucky, and had nothing to do with with how good they were.
It was Benitez who switched Carragher to CB. And Gerrard had managed double figures for goals just once in five seasons before Rafa, and managed it in every season under Rafa.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with Keane and Mascherano.

6 years and he only managed to get to the final of the European Cup twice, and only won it once.

[Timbo's Goals]

Why the abuse, its not big and its not clever, the fella has an opinion and he's entitled to it. Comments like yours imo make you look the prick lad.

Well I guess that's me well and truly told then.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

I'm struggling to write a proper response, because to be honest half of what you've said doesn't seem to have a point.

Those 5 players didn't have their peaks at the same time.
Hyypia and Hamann turned 31 just after Benitez arrived, around the same time Alonso was turning 23.
"had" also implies that he just got lucky, and had nothing to do with with how good they were.
It was Benitez who switched Carragher to CB. And Gerrard had managed double figures for goals just once in five seasons before Rafa, and managed it in every season under Rafa.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with Keane and Mascherano.

6 years and he only managed to get to the final of the European Cup twice, and only won it once.

I think you got sucked in like I did. He's a blue on a fishing trip mate.

[Rafas legends]

great article

[Ice Red]

I just want to say thank you Brian Reade.

Finally someone ready to write the truth instead of sticking the knife in Rafa's back just to sell newspapers.

Say what you want about Rafa. Like him or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on the manager and all that but some people are talking like we've had 6 years of disaster with Rafa at the helm. And I'm talking about the constant crap from so called journalists.

[Juan Loco]

It's a great article but christ I hate seeing Houllier described as a failure. That's total bollocks. Not to take away from the wonderful article and all the great points it makes (echoes my own feelings on the situation) but seriously, was it necessary to describe Houllier as a failure. It's just plain wrong and knocking him down in no way serves to build Rafa up.

I didn't like that at all.

[iwasthere]

Real pleasure to read a qualified and reasoned perspective.

I agree the football was porr last season, indeed, in signing Glen Johnson and encouraging his full-backs forward he made a similar mistake to Gerard Houllier in trying to change a progressive formula too much IMO.

However, when I'm hearing some of the alternatives that some have touted (one cabbie on the way to the Benfica quarter final suggested John Aldridge as manager) I often wonder he was a good manager having a bad, mad season rather than the end of a road.

I feel convinced that Rafa will land a good job and probably get some domestic and european returns with that team.

We will see, just hope the successor is at least given some funds to create their vision if nothing else, nothing worse than seeing a manager, love them or hate them, that isn't allowed to create a team in their image and is left to make the best of whats left. Wish JR and the rest of the cast of Dallas would hurry up and do one!

For all those times of joy watching Liverpool, from the first cup run to Cardiff (they were good days out them!) and all those moments since, cheers!

[bobadicious]

Reading these forums just gets me depressed. Im so sad its all turned out like this. Gonna try and take myself away from LFC for a while. Reading anything about it just gets me down.

[Cormack Snr]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final. Rafa finished 7th after six years in charge with his own team and for every great result against the likes of Barca and Inter there are plenty of Burnley, Reading, and Barnsley's and the worst display from a Liverpool team for fifty years in Wolves away this season.

[alex.]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final. Rafa finished 7th after six years in charge with his own team and for every great result against the likes of Barca and Inter there are plenty of Burnley, Reading, and Barnsley's and the worst display from a Liverpool team for fifty years in Wolves away this season.

Is that serious, so Luis Garcia didn't score the winning goal against Juve and Chelsea, Alonso never scored in the final. Nice one, didn't know that

[eljay]

I'm glad you said that. Yep, ex reds have stuck the knife in, the owners and board have stabbed him in the back repeatedly. But what has really added weight to the campaign is the millions of morons who have taken great delight in slagging Rafa off at every opportunity. Their sheer numbers have made them a powerful voice and greased the wheels of this whole fucking car crash, which saddens me deeply.

Well guess what you fuckers, we always said be careful what you wish for. You'll be wishing that fucking brilliant manager was back before you fucking know it.

Agreed.

Unfortunately, it appears a sizeable portion of our 'fans' are - whilst our club is being savagely raped by the two leeches - standing in line asking '...and how far would you like us to bend over chaps'.

I include my brother in this, with whom I had a very loud slanging match over the phone last night on the subject of Rafa. Now that he's gone, my brother doesn't think we'll sell any of Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano or Reina, and that we'll 'win a trophy' next season playing champagne football. I've bet him £50 that he's proven to be talking through his arse by the end of next season (probably before the start of it once at least one of the four is sold).

Having said all that, I hope he's right. Just can't see it.

[Fruity]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final. Rafa finished 7th after six years in charge with his own team and for every great result against the likes of Barca and Inter there are plenty of Burnley, Reading, and Barnsley's and the worst display from a Liverpool team for fifty years in Wolves away this season.

who's your alternative?

[Timbo's Goals]

fourteen of them played in the final.

No wonder we fuckin won

[CorKopite]

Fantastic article.Thanks for posting Timbo,missed it in the other thread.

Thats cheered me up a bit,one of the few journalists who isnt a fucking sheep.Well in Brian Reade

[24/7]

who's your alternative?

We're not discussing that here - in spite of the "won with Houllier's team" nonsense that makes me laugh every time I read it.

THIS thread is about an excellent article. Thanks.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Stunning piece. Nice to see some intelligent writing from someone in the English media, otherwise so full of half wits and morons.

[Cormack Snr]

Where I work there is one big Rafa fan out of about 30 fella's, I have bet him as much as he wants that we have a better season next year.

[therockbox]

Where I work there is one big Rafa fan out of about 30 fella's, I have bet him as much as he wants that we have a better season next year.

I'm sure we will.

Bet the next six years aren't as good as the last six, though, because only an idiot would look at one season in isolation to judge a manager.

[Timbo's Goals]

Where I work there is one big Rafa fan out of about 30 fella's, I have bet him as much as he wants that we have a better season next year.

So let's see if I've got this right then.

So there's one fella in your place with a mind of his own. And 29 others. That correct?

 

[CHOPPER]

We're not discussing that here - in spite of the "won with Houllier's team" nonsense that makes me laugh every time I read it.

THIS thread is about an excellent article. Thanks.

When are the modjumalators gonna cry maddock and let slip the pen of speculation? Yous can't keep it hidden away forever.

In fact put one of them thingys that look like a pierced tit at the end of the title so we'll all know that the ed's are about. I'm interested as to whom people want, or don't want come to that.

[Dick Emery]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final. Rafa finished 7th after six years in charge with his own team and for every great result against the likes of Barca and Inter there are plenty of Burnley, Reading, and Barnsley's and the worst display from a Liverpool team for fifty years in Wolves away this season.

The worst display in 50 years? Where have you been? Have you just woken from a coma and missed the preceding 20 years? I can tell you hundreds of performances much worse than that. You need to start following the club more closely or shut up. Preferably both.

[CHOPPER]

The worst display in 50 years? Where have you been? Have you just woken from a coma and missed the preceding 20 years? I can tell you hundreds of performances much worse than that. You need to start following the club more closely or shut up. Preferably both.

To be fair, Wolves was.


Until we played Wigan away.

[24/7]

When are the modjumalators gonna cry maddock and let slip the pen of speculation? Yous can't keep it hidden away forever.

In fact put one of them thingys that look like a pierced tit at the end of the title so we'll all know that the ed's are about. I'm interested as to whom people want, or don't want come to that.

Fair point - and all in good time. The current stance is a collective one - allowing debate about x, y or z at the moment only seems to allow just about every thread it's mentioned in to become a points-scoring slanging match. It's just too raw right now. Further discussion on this can be taken to feedback but for now we request indulgence. Ta.

[Glenbuck1914]

The worst display in 50 years? Where have you been? Have you just woken from a coma and missed the preceding 20 years? I can tell you hundreds of performances much worse than that. You need to start following the club more closely or shut up. Preferably both.

1992'ish springs to mind Coventry 5 Liverpool 1, -worst LFC performance I've ever seen.

[youll never walk alone it]

glad most of you have found hansen out for what he is, been saying hes a twat for about 15 years, great player of course.

[Dick Emery]

1992'ish springs to mind Coventry 5 Liverpool 1, -worst LFC performance I've ever seen.

Stig Inge Bjornebye at centre back. Truly embarrassing. Good goal from Redknapp though. Still, not as bad as 0-0 at Wolves apparently.

I remember us being 5 down at Villa in 1977. That wasn't too special either.

[CHOPPER]

1992'ish springs to mind Coventry 5 Liverpool 1, -worst LFC performance I've ever seen.

Fuck ye, we were terrible that day, but at least we had more than one shot on target and scored!

[Cormack Snr]

No, it's the other way around. I have been told by people that they are reluctant to post on here for fear of ridicule, anyone who dares to question Rafa are accused of not following the Liverpool Way. I liked Rafa, he was a decent man but I LOVE Liverpool and it is in the best interest of Liverpool that Rafa left. Rafa's battles got in the way of our performances and the players were affected in the end. Reade even says himself that it is in the best interest of everyone that we start  a fresh because the club on the playing side had gone stale. From the first against Spurs to the last against Hull there was something desparately wrong with the players minds and attidude..

[CHOPPER]

Stig Inge Bjornebye at centre back. Truly embarrassing. Good goal from Redknapp though. Still, not as bad as 0-0 at Wolves apparently.

I remember us being 5 down at Villa in 1977. That wasn't too special either.

Dick, seeing as you're an arl arse like meself but with such a good memory for the shit games, maybe you should start a thread on Liverpools 10 worst performances. 

We do enough wankin over ourselves with our best goal, games etc. Lets try a different spin on it. I'll offer another Coventry disaster, the 4-0 hiding we got in 82' I think it was, that little manc twat Gibson got a hat-trick.

[CHOPPER]

Fair point - and all in good time. The current stance is a collective one - allowing debate about x, y or z at the moment only seems to allow just about every thread it's mentioned in to become a points-scoring slanging match. It's just too raw right now. Further discussion on this can be taken to feedback but for now we request indulgence. Ta.

Fair do's. I wait with baited breathe.

[Cormack Snr]

I went to the Villa game, we played very well in the 2nd half with I think my favourite player scoring Ray Kennedy.

Stig Inge Bjornebye at centre back. Truly embarrassing. Good goal from Redknapp though. Still, not as bad as 0-0 at Wolves apparently.

I remember us being 5 down at Villa in 1977. That wasn't too special either.

[paulrazor]

Dick, seeing as you're an arl arse like meself but with such a good memory for the shit games, maybe you should start a thread on Liverpools 10 worst performances. 

We do enough wankin over ourselves with our best goal, games etc. Lets try a different spin on it. I'll offer another Coventry disaster, the 4-0 hiding we got in 82' I think it was, that little manc twat Gibson got a hat-trick.

reading at home this season was shocking
the 2-0 fa cup defeat at home to bolton in 93 WAS HORRIFIC.

i remember this guy David lee for bolton he must have wasted atleast 4 chances in the first half

[24/7]

No, it's the other way around. I have been told by people that they are reluctant to post on here for fear of ridicule.....

The aim here is not so much to prevent people expressing a view, rather to a) channel it to the appropriate places and at the appropriate times and b) prevent such ridicule taking place, since people are entitled to a view that to others would appear to go against the grain. So long as both sides of an argument express themselves in a responsible manner there's no issue - sadly there's not a great deal of clear thinking going on at the moment, as the ban/warnings log from the last few days will testify to.

If anyone posts an opinion that is well-structured, clearly thought-out and well-argued, then that person is subsequently ridiculed, you can guarantee that if a mod sees it, appropriate action is taken. If the person feels ridiculed, then use the "report to moderator" function rather than sniping back. Simples.

[Gromit]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final. Rafa finished 7th after six years in charge with his own team and for every great result against the likes of Barca and Inter there are plenty of Burnley, Reading, and Barnsley's and the worst display from a Liverpool team for fifty years in Wolves away this season.

Oh sweet baby jesus.  Guess Roy Evans can take some credit for that Champions League win then, he blooded Carragher.

And 50 years?  Did the Souness years pass you by?  Cos they were an eternity for me.

[El Campeador]

Rafa won the European cup with Houlier's team, fourteen of them played in the final.

Did he now.

Did Houllier sign the lad who scored that beaut against Juventus? Was it Bruno fucking Cheyrou who tonked Leverkusen the round before? Who put paid to Chelsea in the semi? Was it Biscan who was spraying passes from midfield throughout the tournament?

I'm almost starting to think we deserve what's happening to us with the shit I see around me.

[Timbo's Goals]

No, it's the other way around. I have been told by people that they are reluctant to post on here for fear of ridicule, anyone who dares to question Rafa are accused of not following the Liverpool Way. I liked Rafa, he was a decent man but I LOVE Liverpool and it is in the best interest of Liverpool that Rafa left. Rafa's battles got in the way of our performances and the players were affected in the end. Reade even says himself that it is in the best interest of everyone that we start  a fresh because the club on the playing side had gone stale. From the first against Spurs to the last against Hull there was something desparately wrong with the players minds and attidude..

I don't know one way or the other whether he really had reached the end of the road. From stuff percolating through today it looks as if he might well have issued his own ultimatum re funds and when told there wouldn't be any didn't have the heart, spirit, stomach, energy whatever for another season of coping with high expectation and stretched resources.

As you say the previous season was unreal from start to finish with just a few exceptions. The stuffing seemed to have been  knocked out of the entire club. The departure of three stalwarts in Xabi, Sami and Arbeloa and the Americans refusal/inability to inject the proceeds from the transfers and supplement that with the injection of say 25-30 million would surely have galvanized the entire club from top to bottom plus fan base to make that assault on the title.

Instead right from the very first pre-season friendlies we performed like a hollow shell. The life had been sucked out of us.

And crucially, Rafa seemed unable to turn the ship around especially with the injury/attitude problems of three of the mainstays of the side.

A post on another website deals pretty well with this aspect.

i've been saying since the spurs defeat on the opening day of the season that the summer hurt us

i've been thinking since the spurs defeat that gerrard didn't look that interested and that torres came out like a big petulant moaning jinny-ann

something was wrong right there

what was it

what was it that happened over the summer to turn a squad that nearly won the league to one that bitched and moaned and couldn't beat spurs

it wasn't rafa

it was the loss of belief

the players we had, whether rafa is a man-motivator or not, played out of their skins in the season before last and pulled plenty of results out of the bag after going behind - they played for him - just like they played for him 2nd half in istanbul

what turned them into non-interested 7th place dross almost immediately the season started the year before

it was that summmer

that summer when we should have pushed on

when we were so close to getting the league

when the 'usual 20 million' on top of player sales would've gotten us there

just when we were that close the owners pulled the plug

they cut the knees from under rafa, from under the fans, from under the club

they took their positive transfer balance after the alonso sale and gave it to the bank

and the players that should've come back to pre-season thinking 'this is our season'

came back thinking 'this club will never go anywhere with those two as owners'

those players are winners - they should be winning things - and they knew they most likely wouldn't here -

the writing was on the wall after last summer and the players lost heart

you could see it in the first game

now fair enough rafa didn't bring them round - he's not that sort of manager - but in ordinary circumstances he's one of the best - but I don't think he's really a siege mentality-backs to the wall- mourinho- type of psychologist

he expects players to be professional and get on with it - this season they were all feeling sorry for themselves and he's not equipped to deal with it

but personally I don't, and never will blame him for it

he was put in an impossible circumstance where a team that was on the crest of a wave and should've gone on, got a boot in the bullocks by the owners in a way that I can't conceive has ever happened in football before

i blame them, the two tumours, the two ***** - they are what's ruining us

and if rafa made bizarre substitutions/ selections last season you have to think that he was probably trying to balance those who looked interested and least affected by the owner's cancer against those who were most talented

but it's still them, the two tumours, the two ***** - whoever the next manager is, we still need rid of them before anything will ever feel right at this football club again

[CHOPPER]

Simmer simmer people, yes the large majority of the squad was made up from Ged's team. Does that mean if Ged had bought the players Rafa brought in then he would of won the CL? I doubt it, but that's just my opinion. But whichever way you look at it the squad was largely Ged's, It doesn't detract nothing from Rafa's achievement and if anything indicates that we have made good choices in our managers.

Lets just hope the next one can keep the kettle boiling.

[John C]

Hopefully the campaigns on the site will serve as a bridge-builder between any factions of the support currently licking their wounds, on both sides of the debate.  The club is still there and still needs support.

Yep, I agree there Rigga, I've already apologised to a RAWKite for expressing my views a bit harshly.

[CHOPPER]

Yes John, you nasty bastard for expressing your opinion.

Shame on you.

[John C]

Simmer simmer people,


Lets just hope the next one can keep the kettle boiling.

This thread is gonna run out of steam, stick to the article