Topic: Star Trek

[Circa1892]

The more this goes on - the more it does feel right for the anthology series Discovery was originally intended to be before they sacked that idea off.

I just don't see how they spin this out for more than a season or two - even though I'm quite enjoying it at the moment, they're too tied to what people know comes next and haven't given themselves enough wriggle room. The 'twists' don't leave much room for major characters either.

If they're tying themselves to SMG as the lead, they should've made her character like Guinan's (ageless and lives basically forever) so she could've featured in multiple times.

[Ray K]

Really enjoyed this episode

Spoiler

While the mirror Lorca thing is a good twist, and far less obvious than the Tyler/Voq thing, writing his mirror universe character as having a bit of a Woody Allen-esque relationship with Burnham is a bit harsh on Jason Isaacs     

I would like to go back and see how many clues were seeded about Lorca in the earlier episodes; the only thing I can think of is at the end of the last episode before the hiatus, where it looked like he (mis)programmed the last spore drive jump that brought them to the mirror universe. Though the light-sensitivity reveal was a tad clunky, given the subtlety of the rest of the writing of Lorca.

Kelpiens don't look like the tastiest people to eat either. They're no porgs, is all I'm saying.

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[losCHUNK]

Really enjoyed this episode

Spoiler

While the mirror Lorca thing is a good twist, and far less obvious than the Tyler/Voq thing, writing his mirror universe character as having a bit of a Woody Allen-esque relationship with Burnham is a bit harsh on Jason Isaacs     

I would like to go back and see how many clues were seeded about Lorca in the earlier episodes; the only thing I can think of is at the end of the last episode before the hiatus, where it looked like he (mis)programmed the last spore drive jump that brought them to the mirror universe. Though the light-sensitivity reveal was a tad clunky, given the subtlety of the rest of the writing of Lorca.

Kelpiens don't look like the tastiest people to eat either. They're no porgs, is all I'm saying.

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Spoiler

In the ep prior, when the planet / rebels get blown up, everyone looks away from the light (including Lorca) except Burnham.  Burnham even makes a comment somewhere along the lines of 'even the light here seems different'.  Much earlier the admiral says he's a different person n all (keeping a gun under his bed etc).  Before Lorca punched the numbers into the spore drive which launched them into the MU he said he was going home.

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Some of them aren't mine, loved the ep tho.  Unlike Voq this one completely blindsided me

[losCHUNK]

Spoiler

You do know bad and light don't actually rhyme, right? 

Good twist which I didn't see coming. And as mentioned above, does throw up the question as to where the 'good' Lorca is at!?

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Spoiler

He dead imo, unless he's a prisoner which seems a little far fetched at this stage.

My money would be on MU Lorca infiltrating the Buran, killing prime Lorca and sabotaging the ship which set off the events leading us to here.

I liked the Lorca character, he is one of the most interesting parts of the show but when I found out Isaacs was attached to the series I did wonder how long he would be around for.  I hope he stays even as a villain

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[Nessy76]

Great twist, and really well hidden behind the other big "shock" reveal. Telegraphed the Clem Fandango one so nobody was expecting this. Just keeps getting better, this show.

[Something Worse]

Amazed to see people didn't at least have an inkling about the twist. I thought the mid-season cliffhanger was a dead giveaway.

[Fairytale of 2005]

Really enjoying it, 30 odd minutes a week isn't enough!

[RedSince86]

Nice surprising twist in that episode.


Loving this show so far.

Just gutted it's not a 24 episode season that i am accustomed to with Star Trek.

[Betty Blue]

Amazed to see people didn't at least have an inkling about the twist. I thought the mid-season cliffhanger was a dead giveaway.

Same. I was going to mention it in here last week, but I didn't want to potentially spoil it for people. As with the other major twist, there have been so many clues littered within the show -

Spoiler

Lorca's aversion to bright light, him keeping a gun under his pillow in his quarters (obviously an old habit from his world), the sexy admiral noticing scars on his back that were new to her, the way he fucked over said admiral by letting her get captured by the Klingons and then didn't order a rescue, the "Let's Go Home" quote followed by him overriding the jump coordinates and then coincidentally ending up in the MU, then there were other visual giveaways like the background in the Lorca's Discover office being almost identical to the background in Burnham's one on the MU Shenzou.

I guess people were too distracted by the Ash is Voq twist to see some of this, but it's been clued since the very start.

What I will say though is I think they're deliberately throwing us off to believe that Lorca is now pure evil, when instead he might be the equivalent of the MU's freedom fighters. Intending to overthrow the emperor in order to create a better world, rather than purely for his own gain. This doesn't mean he's not brutal and sick in the way he's gone about it (hey, it's the MU), but I think it's going to be more complex than Lorca now being the pantomime villain. Or at least I hope it will! The twist is great fun, but I do think that this is a waste of a far more interesting plot development that has gone on across the whole season. The idea that this brutal war torn situation that the Federation has found itself in has pushed a man to the very edge and led us to the first Star Trek captain who was prepared to go against the book to ensure their survival. The twist renders that all defunct and moves us back to the goody two shoes whiter than white federation values, which is a real shame IMO.

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[losCHUNK]

Same. I was going to mention it in here last week, but I didn't want to potentially spoil it for people. As with the other major twist, there have been so many clues littered within the show -

Spoiler

Lorca's aversion to bright light, him keeping a gun under his pillow in his quarters (obviously an old habit from his world), the sexy admiral noticing scars on his back that were new to her, the way he fucked over said admiral by letting her get captured by the Klingons and then didn't order a rescue, the "Let's Go Home" quote followed by him overriding the jump coordinates and then coincidentally ending up in the MU, then there were other visual giveaways like the background in the Lorca's Discover office being almost identical to the background in Burnham's one on the MU Shenzou.

I guess people were too distracted by the Ash is Voq twist to see some of this, but it's been clued since the very start.

What I will say though is I think they're deliberately throwing us off to believe that Lorca is now pure evil, when instead he might be the equivalent of the MU's freedom fighters. Intending to overthrow the emperor in order to create a better world, rather than purely for his own gain. This doesn't mean he's not brutal and sick in the way he's gone about it (hey, it's the MU), but I think it's going to be more complex than Lorca now being the pantomime villain. Or at least I hope it will! The twist is great fun, but I do think that this is a waste of a far more interesting plot development that has gone on across the whole season. The idea that this brutal war torn situation that the Federation has found itself in has pushed a man to the very edge and led us to the first Star Trek captain who was prepared to go against the book to ensure their survival. The twist renders that all defunct and moves us back to the goody two shoes whiter than white federation values, which is a real shame IMO.

[close]

Well

Spoiler

Lorcas aversion to bright light wouldn't have made sense as it wasn't established in canon that the MU counterparts struggle with bright light until the reveal ?.  The admiral exchange was just a small hint as the story arc was leaning more so on PTSD, the biggest hint was the 'lets go home' but even that had a dual meaning and could've just as easily been for the crews benefit, imo if you couldn't connect the dots here then you were completely lost to the theory.  The writing may have been on the wall but it was nowhere near as likely as the Voq arc was.

Oh yea, this has been doing the rounds n all

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[Something Worse]

Spoiler

for me it was all jumps going well until the last one which took then there, followed by the "evil counterpart" exposition early in that episode.

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[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Plot twists and mental leaps everywhere, love it

[Betty Blue]

Well

Spoiler

Lorcas aversion to bright light wouldn't have made sense as it wasn't established in canon that the MU counterparts struggle with bright light until the reveal ?.  The admiral exchange was just a small hint as the story arc was leaning more so on PTSD, the biggest hint was the 'lets go home' but even that had a dual meaning and could've just as easily been for the crews benefit, imo if you couldn't connect the dots here then you were completely lost to the theory.  The writing may have been on the wall but it was nowhere near as likely as the Voq arc was.

Oh yea, this has been doing the rounds n all

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Spoiler

Nope, it was first established a couple of episodes back when Burnham was on the MU Shenzhou and she commented to Ash about the difference of light in this world. Obviously a very small hint, but it was still there. I find that more often than not in film/tv if something odd and seemingly irrelevant is suddenly brought up, then it will become important later. I suppose that's in my upbringing, as my family worked in film and I was always told to watch out for these kind of things. I do think it was just as obvious as the Voq twist if you weren't distracted by that though. But most people were, so I understand. I only gave the liner notes above. There are loads of other little references and hints to be found that pointed to him being MU Lorca. Such as him joking to Burnham that we might 'find the good Lorca in this universe', avoiding the admiral's question when she starts reminiscing about old times, the "Let's Go Home" line was also compounded by him altering the coordinates just as they were about to jump (the dial even read **Override - Lorca, G.**), on the Shenzhou bridge after the resistance planet is blown up the rebounding light is seen to blind the crew including Lorca when he arrives on the bridge, while Burnham is the only one able to stare straight at it etc.

Regardless of whether or not it was all foreshadowed, I do fear we've lost a far more nuanced character (dealing with PTSD in a sci-fi scenario seemed very fresh to me) for the sake of a clever twist.

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[losCHUNK]

Spoiler

Fair do's, I actually missed the evil counterpart bit entirely.  I still think the Voq foreshadowing was pretty much spelled out , the thought may have entered my head but must've been dismissed straight away.

I agree with the PTSD angle, why I was finding Lorca so interesting.  They can't really dig themselves out of this so am a little gutted that we're gonna lose Isaacs, if he wasn't gonna stick around for more than a season then its entirely understandable though.  If he stays as a 'villain of the week' character then I'll be happy with that.

Season 2 is gonna be a hard follow up too, it'll be interesting to see how the 'mystery box' show survives a season 2.  I think Westworld has its work cut out in this respect n all.

You can see how/why Fuller was setting this up as an anthology series.

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[Nessy76]

Spoiler

Fair do's, I actually missed the evil counterpart bit entirely.  I still think the Voq foreshadowing was pretty much spelled out , the thought may have entered my head but must've been dismissed straight away.

I agree with the PTSD angle, why I was finding Lorca so interesting.  They can't really dig themselves out of this so am a little gutted that we're gonna lose Isaacs, if he wasn't gonna stick around for more than a season then its entirely understandable though.  If he stays as a 'villain of the week' character then I'll be happy with that.

Season 2 is gonna be a hard follow up too, it'll be interesting to see how the 'mystery box' show survives a season 2.  I think Westworld has its work cut out in this respect n all.

You can see how/why Fuller was setting this up as an anthology series.

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Depends. They could use everything that happens this season as a set up for a more traditional episodic format, with Discovery taking on a five year mission a la Kirk n Spock, the difference being that we would know what has bound this crew together.

Spoiler

Hopefully some of the supporting cast will get a bit more development, too, as the way things are going there may not be many regulars left for season 2!

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[Broad Spectrum]

Just watched the latest episode, really enjoying it as well. Think I might wait until they’re all out to start watching again though...

Spoiler

You can’t drop a huge plot twist like that in a 37 minute episode!

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Is there any reason why they’ve switched format in this half to weekly releases as opposed to a batch release? Guessing it’s a way of getting more viewers on board...?

[Nessy76]

Just watched the latest episode, really enjoying it as well. Think I might wait until they’re all out to start watching again though...

Spoiler

You can’t drop a huge plot twist like that in a 37 minute episode!

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Is there any reason why they’ve switched format in this half to weekly releases as opposed to a batch release? Guessing it’s a way of getting more viewers on board...?

It's been weekly since the start on Netflix.

[losCHUNK]

Aye, CBS release once a week so imagine Netflix has an agreement not to air until after that.

[Broad Spectrum]

Fair enough I obviously watched the first lot after they had all been released. I presumed it was following their Marvel model.

[Ray K]

Spoiler

Hello to Goodbye to Jason Isaacs.

The biggest problem I have with the show is with the pacing. It's burning through plots like wildfire.
It spent half a season teasing the Voq/Tyler stuff - and resolved it in an episode. I think. Actually, I'm not sure what's happening with the Voq/Tyler hybrid.  It (more subtly) teased the Mirror Lorca stuff - and resolved it in one episode. Both those character arcs would have taken a season to play out on DS9, and would have been all the better for it.

The only crew characters left with speaking parts left are now Stamets, Tilly, Saru (who's great), and Burnham. That's a problem going forward.

And I don't understand Burnham saving the Emperor. She made her eat a Kelpien dude last week, so don't try to claim that she's just good but misunderstood or some such shit. 
Ultimately, I think the show will be weaker for having Mirror Phillipa Georgiou in it than having Mirror Lorca.
 

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[CraigDS]

Spoiler

Hello to Goodbye to Jason Isaacs.

The biggest problem I have with the show is with the pacing. It's burning through plots like wildfire.
It spent half a season teasing the Voq/Tyler stuff - and resolved it in an episode. I think. Actually, I'm not sure what's happening with the Voq/Tyler hybrid.  It (more subtly) teased the Mirror Lorca stuff - and resolved it in one episode. Both those character arcs would have taken a season to play out on DS9, and would have been all the better for it.

The only crew characters left with speaking parts left are now Stamets, Tilly, Saru (who's great), and Burnham. That's a problem going forward.

And I don't understand Burnham saving the Emperor. She made her eat a Kelpien dude last week, so don't try to claim that she's just good but misunderstood or some such shit. 
Ultimately, I think the show will be weaker for having Mirror Phillipa Georgiou in it than having Mirror Lorca.
 

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Spoiler

Yeah must admit I couldn't help thinking how quick they are ploughing through story lines. In a way it's good as they aren't needless dragging things out, but then it would be good if they fleshed bits out a little more at times.

Going to be interesting to see where they take it with how quick they're going.

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[Circa1892]

Spoiler

There is no way this show lasts longer than a series - two at the most. It's burned through characters at a ridiculous rate. To use as a comparison, the Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager were on screen for 7 years each, and each lost one "main" character - Yar left early in TNG and Kes was binned off from Voyager, the only major character to leave DS9 was Dax in season 6. Discovery has been losing them at an insane rate! I suppose on the flip side you could argue DS9 saw the biggest war in history and TNG/Vgr had multiple run-ins with the Borg so it's insane basically nobody died though...

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[Inpeace]

Spoiler

Hello to Goodbye to Jason Isaacs.

The biggest problem I have with the show is with the pacing. It's burning through plots like wildfire.
It spent half a season teasing the Voq/Tyler stuff - and resolved it in an episode. I think. Actually, I'm not sure what's happening with the Voq/Tyler hybrid.  It (more subtly) teased the Mirror Lorca stuff - and resolved it in one episode. Both those character arcs would have taken a season to play out on DS9, and would have been all the better for it.

The only crew characters left with speaking parts left are now Stamets, Tilly, Saru (who's great), and Burnham. That's a problem going forward.

And I don't understand Burnham saving the Emperor. She made her eat a Kelpien dude last week, so don't try to claim that she's just good but misunderstood or some such shit. 
Ultimately, I think the show will be weaker for having Mirror Phillipa Georgiou in it than having Mirror Lorca.
 

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Spoiler

Hello to Jason Isaacs? perhaps original universe Jason makes an appearance.

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[CraigDS]

Spoiler

There is no way this show lasts longer than a series - two at the most. It's burned through characters at a ridiculous rate. To use as a comparison, the Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager were on screen for 7 years each, and each lost one "main" character - Yar left early in TNG and Kes was binned off from Voyager, the only major character to leave DS9 was Dax in season 6. Discovery has been losing them at an insane rate! I suppose on the flip side you could argue DS9 saw the biggest war in history and TNG/Vgr had multiple run-ins with the Borg so it's insane basically nobody died though...

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Spoiler

I think shows have changed since then though, some anyway, and we're seeing major characters die off a lot sooner yet the plot line continuing to move forward.

It's already had a second series commissioned (back in October!).

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[Libertine]

Spoiler

I think shows have changed since then though, some anyway, and we're seeing major characters die off a lot sooner yet the plot line continuing to move forward.

It's already had a second series commissioned (back in October!).

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Spoiler

Yeah, I think that's true. The TV landscape has changed completely since Star Trek was last on - so much more choice and quality offerings, as well as streaming offering a very different viewing experience. Not sure the traditional Star Trek format would hold up today.

I think Discovery has been a little too insane and plot driven. Having said that, I think it's been more engaging than the first seasons of most of the others. And far more interesting characters already. Who knows, a few more deaths in previous series could have been very beneficial to the shows (like pretty much the entirety of the Voager and Enterprise casts).

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[Skeeve]

Spoiler

I think shows have changed since then though, some anyway, and we're seeing major characters die off a lot sooner yet the plot line continuing to move forward.

It's already had a second series commissioned (back in October!).

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Spoiler

The problem with their approach is that the deaths only really work if they have actually spent enough time properly introducing the characters so if you break out so many 'shocking' deaths this early in the show it means that you end up with only a couple of characters worth a damn as all the others they have bothered upgrading from background scenery have been used up in those deaths.

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[Nessy76]

Spoiler

The problem with their approach is that the deaths only really work if they have actually spent enough time properly introducing the characters so if you break out so many 'shocking' deaths this early in the show it means that you end up with only a couple of characters worth a damn as all the others they have bothered upgrading from background scenery have been used up in those deaths.

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Spoiler

The way they've explained it, what we're seeing so far is the set-up, almost a prequel, to the sort of show Star Trek originally was. In the last episode, we just started to see the crew of the Discovery coming together around Saru. There are several "background" bridge characters who will become more important as time goes on. And not all of the "dead" characters are gone for good. They have dropped some huge hints that the Doctor will be back before long somehow (in fact they flat out said as much) and it's clear that Clem Fandango will be involved for a while yet, possibly even long term.

The whole way the show is made and structured is different to how Trek has been done before. TV as a whole has moved on from the syndication model, which was the basis for the one-off self-contained episodic form of the earlier shows. Next Gen had a small amount of character progression, but they were basically the same characters in season seven as in season one, and if you had only ever seen the first few episodes, you would have been able to follow more or less anything from the last season without difficulty. They changed that a bit for DS9, but there you had four seasons before anything even really happened. Enterprise tried longer-form stories, but it had run out of ideas by then.

So what you have now is a different beast in terms of how it is going to tell stories. Maybe there will be more ebb and flow of characters, new faces, people leaving or being killed off. It doesn't have to be Game of Throne or anything, but it does add something to know that, unlike Kirk and Spock, nobody in this show is immortal, the stakes can be higher. It has given them room to develop plots and map them out over time. What was good with Lorca is that once his story was told, he was moved out of the way - although there's always the chance they bring him back one way or another, that story is done and now we move on to the consequences of that. The Klingon War storyline is also set to have a finite life, they've said that is the backdrop to season one, but not necessarily the total run of the show, so we could have a very different scenario as well as a modified cast.

So far it's been almost all Michael Burnham, and that has worked well. It will be interesting to see if they keep the spotlight on her, or pass it around a little more in future.

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[Slick_Beef]

I'm finally up to date with the latest episodes, I have thoroughly enjoyed it. I can accept the fact that we're not going to have episodes in the vein of "The Measure of a Man" or "The Drumhead".. it's very different to that, but I've found it wonderfully entertaining.

Spoiler

That plot twist with Lorca was very clever and I hadn't seen it coming at all, but they had left enough clues that it made sense. Nicely done. I do hope we get Lorca back soon though (the prime universe version I guess) because he is a fascinating character and I have really enjoyed seeing a different type of Star Trek captain.

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[Trada]

Loved the latest episode it gets better and better.

I think it it had by miles the best fight scenes ever in Star Trek.

[Big Bamber]

Loved the latest episode it gets better and better.

I think it it had by miles the best fight scenes ever in Star Trek.

It remarkable how often fans say "this latest episode was the best one yet!". Seems more prevalent than with other shows. Good sign.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Loved the latest episode it gets better and better.

I think it it had by miles the best fight scenes ever in Star Trek.

Oh really?

[RedSince86]

Hopefully we get to see the Romulans and Cardassians in this show,and the Ferengi for comic relief.

Nice ending in the latest episode.

[Betty Blue]

Loved the latest episode it gets better and better.

I think it it had by miles the best fight scenes ever in Star Trek.

Definitely not better than the R-rated version of this -

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/tOP4tUayLq4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/tOP4tUayLq4</a>

[Circa1892]

Hopefully we get to see the Romulans and Cardassians in this show,and the Ferengi for comic relief.

Nice ending in the latest episode.

Romulans would be a good move. Enterprise was supposed to move towards conflict with the Romulans before it got canned and they've always been slightly underused in the franchise.

[Broad Spectrum]

Spoiler

I can’t get my head around why Burnham brought Philippa back to their universe. I know they’ll focus on the guilt and regret she still feels due to her death, but this isn’t the same Philippa. This one is a raging tyrant who’s personally responsible for the deaths of millions/billions of people. Oh and she also enjoys eating sentient beings! Just thought that was a bit mad given how intelligent Burnham is.

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[Something Worse]

Spoiler

I can’t get my head around why Burnham brought Philippa back to their universe. I know they’ll focus on the guilt and regret she still feels due to her death, but this isn’t the same Philippa. This one is a raging tyrant who’s personally responsible for the deaths of millions/billions of people. Oh and she also enjoys eating sentient beings! Just thought that was a bit mad given how intelligent Burnham is.

[close]

It was a dumb storyline decision and an annoying one, but they've earned my trust.

[Trada]

They love their plot twists.

Season finale next week.

[elbow]

Clem Fandango doesn't half cry a lot.

Actually really enjoying this series.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Spoiler

So I'm guessing her plot to deal with the Klingons is to destroy Qo'nos?

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[Circa1892]

Spoiler

So I'm guessing her plot to deal with the Klingons is to destroy Qo'nos?

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Spoiler

I'd guess so too. Only problem with that being it is categorically not destroyed in any of the 500 episodes that follow this series. The more this series goes on, the more the decision to make it a prequel is slightly baffling. All the technology on the ship looks light years ahead of TNG/DS9/VGR, and I'm sure they could've come up with someone to fill the Sarek/Harry Mudd "oh look they were in the original" feel. Decent episode mind, bit of a step back from the last few weeks but nicely sets up a finale.

Other qualm is - it seems a bit weird that a completely disjointed Klingon Empire have been able to basically erradicate the Federation when the whole premise of their interrelationship is that they're two of the three big powers...

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