Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[abhred]

Not a lot of anything in particular in this team. In a sense we're a jack of all trades but king of none (yet). This has been something I've been...musing over lately, so apologies if it isn't exactly coherent. Bit of a combination of muddled thoughts, if you will.

Yeh, I'll go with that.

Even if you look at the two most successful teams of the past few years. Chelsea are about sheer physical strength, combined with a bit of movement and pace around the team. United are about sheer pace, getting the ball up the field as fast as possible, and getting as many players in the box. And both of these are helped with world class central defenders to protect them. Even Arsenal (not successful), they're most about little passes here and there, and players with quick feet and mind.

We're in between. We're 'nippy', and move the ball around very nicely, while we also are physical in the sense, that we press teams relentlessly. And a bit of technique, and fluidity. And no, we don't have brilliant defenders either. All an in between at the moment.

Again, don't think Rafa will ever favor any one of these styles, and will always be about the balance. That's Rafa's ideal team I guess, but at the moment, we really need a new defensive pairing, a midfielder, and another attacking midfielder.

[Vulmea]

Skrtel has scored 5 goals in 35 internationals - he should score more - comes back to our terrible set pieces in a league dominated by set pieces - add that to our repitoire and we'd be awesome

In terms of yesterday though, we lost, dress it up whichever way and Chelsea did enough to win - ifs, maybe's and buts aside top teams know how to win even when they are not playing their best - they overcome set backs - we looked short of belief in the middle part of the game - Chelsea were in the ascendency until they scored - for me we looked sorry for ourselves , too upset with the awful referee who gave us nothing - Torres sulked instead of getting even - lucas, reira and insua were not good enough - i still think we are struggling to come to terms with Xabi not as a player just as a symbol - the top players all look like their using it as an excuse


something needs to spark our belief wins against Sunderland and United and we should see a different team


 

[bigbear]

Skrtel has scored 5 goals in 35 internationals - he should score more - comes back to our terrible set pieces in a league dominated by set pieces - add that to our repitoire and we'd be awesome

In terms of yesterday though, we lost, dress it up whichever way and Chelsea did enough to win - ifs, maybe's and buts aside top teams know how to win even when they are not playing their best - they overcome set backs - we looked short of belief in the middle part of the game - Chelsea were in the ascendency until they scored - for me we looked sorry for ourselves , too upset with the awful referee who gave us nothing - Torres sulked instead of getting even - lucas, Riera and insua were not good enough - i still think we are struggling to come to terms with Xabi not as a player just as a symbol - the top players all look like their using it as an excuse


something needs to spark our belief wins against Sunderland and United and we should see a different team


 

Well I watched Real Madrid get outclassed by Sevilla yesterday and Alonso didn't run that midfield, in fact he looked slow and off the pace at times.

[Degs]

I think that is overly negative.

Reading it back it does sound overly negative but the point remains.
I thought we played some cracking football and bossed the game until the goal went in, Mascherano's addition being a blessing and then a curse, I knew before the match he'd be the vital player and that was before we saw us without him in the week.

The problem being we couldn't have picked a less goal scoring team if we had tried in a match where you're unlikely to get many chances anyway.
People say we're over reliant on Torres and Gerrard and without them we fall to bits, I disagree but when they're both not firing then we have almost nobody to break the deadlock before the floodgates open.  Yossi has looked like the man to take this mantle as has Kuyt but the former was on the bench and the latter looked knackered.  Combined with the lack of goals from the spine of the team as mentioned above then you have to wonder if Torres and Gerrard didn;t score yesterday who would?
It's why I hope Aquilani is a shooter (which he is meant to be), Agger comes back in the team and Babel is allowed to come on the pitch a bit more.  They all have their faults whether it be with injuries or attitude but I don't think Riera is going to score the first goal in matches like this.

[b_joseph]

Skrtel has scored 5 goals in 35 internationals - he should score more - comes back to our terrible set pieces in a league dominated by set pieces - add that to our repitoire and we'd be awesome

Then how come Hyypia always found a way to be a massive threat from set pieces whenever he played? Kinda funny that he would win everything put his way regardless of who took a corner/dead ball. Not that I am saying we are consistent with our delivery because we arent. But good headers of the ball will get to set pieces and Skrtel definitely is not a dominant header of the ball right now.

This time last week the mood around these parts was so bright and optimistic. 7 days later and suddenly we are rooting for a team that isnt going to do much this season.
Its never as good as you think and certainly never as bad as you think.

[bigbear]

Reading it back it does sound overly negative but the point remains.
I thought we played some cracking football and bossed the game until the goal went in, Mascherano's addition being a blessing and then a curse, I knew before the match he'd be the vital player and that was before we saw us without him in the week.

The problem being we couldn't have picked a less goal scoring team if we had tried in a match where you're unlikely to get many chances anyway.
People say we're over reliant on Torres and Gerrard and without them we fall to bits, I disagree but when they're both not firing then we have almost nobody to break the deadlock before the floodgates open.  Yossi has looked like the man to take this mantle as has Kuyt but the former was on the bench and the latter looked knackered.  Combined with the lack of goals from the spine of the team as mentioned above then you have to wonder if Torres and Gerrard didn;t score yesterday who would?
It's why I hope Aquilani is a shooter (which he is meant to be), Agger comes back in the team and Babel is allowed to come on the pitch a bit more.  They all have their faults whether it be with injuries or attitude but I don't think Riera is going to score the first goal in matches like this.

I think these games are normally changed by a bit of luck or a mistake - small details as the man says. They got that little bit yesterday.

I  don't think you would want us to go there and open it up from the off would you. We didn't win there last year like that, we got a goal and played on the break.

I felt at 0-0 they were marginally better but Ballack's header aside they had rarely threatened Reina's goal and we looked ok and I had thoughts about nicking it, but the mistake changed it as our full backs got caught up the pitch and centre backs 2 v2..

I agree Kuyt does look a bit jaded but i could see why he went for Riera to tie up that side of the pitch and keep Yossi/Babel for a change. However, once I saw Ivanovic and not Bosingwa i wanted Yossi on as Ivanovic is a strong lad and Riera wouldn't muscle him on the outside as he did with Bosingwa.
 
Re match-winners, if you take Torres/Gerrard & Drogba/Anelka out of both sides then I'd say the next 2 most likely scorers would be Kuyt/Lampard and the stats would back that up.

Yes Ballack has a goal in him as does Essien but not too many for Chelsea. However, in these big games it's as much about match-savers and being error free as it is about the top class players winning it. Lampard is a good player and he hardly got a kick yesterday. Gerrard/Torres didn't do too much nor did Anelka save for one sitter that he stuck in. They're hard games to shine in and so it proved.

I just think there's been an over-reaction to getting beat at possibly the toughest ground in the country.

[Vulmea]

Well I watched Real Madrid get outclassed by Sevilla yesterday and Alonso didn't run that midfield, in fact he looked slow and off the pace at times.

That why I said not as a player but a symbol..........................think a lot of 'senior' players were upset that he was 'allowed' to leave - very popular bloke Xabi

Sami scored 5 for Finland in 101 games ....................Skrtel could be a threat from set pieces but our set pieces are crap - Sami often got his head on the ball dont remember him getting that many on target to be honest 22 in 317 games and some of those with his feet.......Skrtel 0 in 40? For Skrtel to be as 'prolific' he should have scored just 2 by now................

but Gerrard would be very useful in the box or on the edge why he takes set pieces when his delievery is not the best I dont understand

[Degs]

Re match-winners, if you take Torres/Gerrard & Dropba/Anelka out of both sides then I'd say the next 2 most likely scorers would be Kuyt/Lampard and the stats would back that up.

Yes Ballack has a goal in him as does Essien but not too many for Chelsea. However, in these big games it's as much about match-savers and being error free as it is about the top class players winning it. Lampard is a good player and he hardly got a kick yesterday. Gerrard/Torres didn't do too much nor did Anelka save for one sitter that he stuck in. They're hard games to shine in and so it proved.

I just think there's been an over-reaction to getting beat at possibly the toughest ground in the country.

See this is where I disagree.
They had a lot more goals there.

Lucas - 0 Premier League goals, Ballack - 15
Masch - 1 Premier League goal, Essien - 11
Kuyt - 30 Premier League goals , Lampard - 34 (in last 4 seasons, same time as Kuyt)
Insua - 0 Premier League goals, Cole - 2 already this season
Carra -1 Premier League goal  (since 01/02), Terry (since 01/02) - 16
Skrtel - 0 Premier League goals, Carvalho - 7
Riera - 3 Premier League goals, Deco - 4
Johnson - 9 Prermiship goals, Ivanovich - 0

All in all that's  44-89

A difference of 45 goals.

I'm not saying we're shit but this is why we were looking at Silva and Aquilani and why the score doesn't refelect how well we played, we've got limited options in the final 3rd, especially when our goalscorers are getting splintered arses.

[bigbear]

See this is where I disagree.
They had a lot more goals there.

Lucas - 0 Premier League goals, Ballack - 15
Masch - 1 Premier League goal, Essien - 11
Kuyt - 30 Premier League goals , Lampard - 34 (in last 4 seasons, same time as Kuyt)
Insua - 0 Premier League goals, Cole - 2 already this season
Carra -1 Premier League goal  (since 01/02), Terry (since 01/02) - 16
Skrtel - 0 Premier League goals, Carvalho - 7
Riera - 3 Premier League goals, Deco - 4
Johnson - 9 Prermiship goals, Ivanovich - 0

All in all that's  44-89

A difference of 45 goals.

I'm not saying we're shit but this is why we were looking at Silva and Aquilani and why the score doesn't refelect how well we played, we've got limited options in the final 3rd, especially when our goalscorers are getting splintered arses.

In some instances I agree but it's a bit selective in some areas as there players have generally played more games. Moreover, we picked a side to contain at first hence Kuyt/Riera wide and not Benayoun who has been a threat this year.

PS. How come we keep scoring more goals than them then. More last year and more this ?

[Degs]

In some instances I agree but it's a bit selective in some areas as there players have generally played more games. Moreover, we picked a side to contain at first hence Kuyt/Riera wide and not Benayoun who has been a threat this year.

PS. How come we keep scoring more goals than them then. More last year and more this ?

I tried to pick a similar time frame i.e. judging Cole and Insua on this season alone and where the are discrepancies it's mirrored i.e. Ivanovich/Johnson.

This was the crux of my argument we've scored more than them because Gerrard and Torres have scored more than the other 9 players who started on Saturday combined.
Torres scoring 46 premier league goals for us so far and Gerrard scoring 74 career league goals.

Whereas Drogba is in his 6th season and has only scored 15 more goals than Torres, Anelka has only scored 24 goals in 56 matches for Chelsea.

We were thin when it came to goalscorers on Saturday, Yossi Benayoun has 12 more league goals than Riera and has scored as many league goals this season so far as Riera has in his whole time here.

All I'm saying is that the selection on Saturday was reliant on Torres or Gerrard scoring as the others (barring Kuyt) score once in a blue moon, or more often never.

Take out Kuyt and the rest of our midfield had 4 league goals between them in 145 league matches. 
That's one goal between them in every 36 matches.

Include Kuyt and it's still only 1 in every 4 games (or in other words Torres scores twice as often as the entire midfield 4).

I think we're not reliant on Torres and Gerrard we're relying on Aquilani being able to hit the target, on Babel growing a pair and rising to the challenge, and on either Danny Agger drinking some milk and chipping in or on Carragher and Skrtel learning what that thing attached to their neck is for.

If we're asking Torres and Gerrard to score every goal, and by playing Riera, Masch and Lucas in the same team we might as well be, then they're not going to fire every game and we'll drop valuable points.  We had plenty of the ball yesterday and we just launched it in the air every chance we got, against a team of giants. It's not fair on them to expect them to carry our entire challenge.

[Hank Scorpio]

After their goal I thought we got in some decent situations, Torres could easily have scored with his left foot, Gerrard had an opportunity, Johnson/Benayoun and kuyt all had decent shooting chances and we pushed a very strong outfit back.

I think this is an important point.

2-0 flattered Chelsea, imo.  Towards the end of the game we had them pinned back and I wouldn't necessarily say they were in complete control, Terry's last ditch block in the box being evidence to that.  Insua and Johnson were pushed right up and picking up cleared balls near the edge of the penalty area.  We should have scored.  Torres won't miss half chances (I would say for a player of his quality they were more than half chances) like that often and Gerrard will be more devastating from 25 yards (or at least work an inexperienced keeper at this level, I mean it's a crime that somebody with a shot like Gerrard's didn't hit the target more often from that range, look what happened when Riera fizzed one from 40 yards or so) and Benayoun won't miss an open goal.

Chelsea were tired near the end but they probably have the best outball in world football with Drogba.  You can play a bad pass up to him and he will make something of it.  This means that your quality doesn't have to be up to scratch for your team to push out.  He is absolutely brilliant for them.

I think there is cause for optimism at this point.  I don't think an away loss to Chelsea is that much of a concern because the chances are you will lose there.  Last years champions failed to win any of their 3 away fixtures against the top 4 (losing 2).

We have Agger back now and hopefully he can remain fit.  His distribution and composure from the back could well mean that the midfield two can stick to what they do best and that is destroy.  Aurelio is another player who can make play and take the burden off the centre of midfield.  We don't know how Aquilani will fare but £20m suggest he should be more than a decent player and his strength is on the ball.  All three of these players will benefit us in possession and help create and support attacks from deeper positions.  I can't wait to see all three in the team to be honest and perhaps then we can judge.  I just hope Benitez gets Agger in the team ASAP because neither Skrtel or Carragher deserve their place ahead of him.

Well I watched Real Madrid get outclassed by Sevilla yesterday and Alonso didn't run that midfield, in fact he looked slow and off the pace at times.

Sevilla are fantastic, aren't they?

They play at such a pace and Madrid found it difficult to cope with.

Would love to see them and Valencia put in a proper title challenge.

[scatman]

I think the Dane will be able to contribute from attacking set pieces, as Skrtel should (he's had chances just not buried them) I've seen how Agger attacks the ball and im pretty sure he's scored a couple of headers in his short playing time for us. I can also remember him missing a few easy ones too.

[nocturnalvin]

The glass seems half full for most of us, mainly because we have some of the better ball players coming back in.

the bigger question is, are we able to stay on course until that happens ?

[No666]

Well I watched Real Madrid get outclassed by Sevilla yesterday and Alonso didn't run that midfield, in fact he looked slow and off the pace at times.

Only seen the highlights and read that they missed Ronaldo. (A one-man team just like Liverpool, then...) Why is it that I feel strangely comforted by your summary, though?
On another note, I was interested to re-read Rafa's comments about Aquilani - emphasised the accuracy and speed of his passing, which is what we need, so desperately, to counter the extreme pressing tactic. A lot depends on how quickly he and Gerrard form an understanding. BTW has anyone else heard this rumour/gossip that De Rossi isn't as happy at Roma as he once was?

[Degs]

BTW has anyone else heard this rumour/gossip that De Rossi isn't as happy at Roma as he once was?

De Rossi is a one club man, I'd be extremely shocked if he ever left, he only has to wait about a year to get the armband as well.
Having said that I'd swap him for Masch in a heartbeat, few central midfield players are as well rounded as him.

[killer-heels]

Isn't De Rossi their crown jewel though? Considering Aquilani cost almost £20m, even with his injury record, the mind boggles to how much De Rossi would cost.

To be honest, the 'whom-to-replace-Mach-with' debate isn't that much of a concern as it has been with Alonso, should we come to it. There are options such as Yaya Toure and Matthieu Flamini, as well as some other promising players like Lee Cattermole that we could keep an eye out on.

[Juan Loco]

he only has to wait about a year to get the armband as well.

You're joking aren't you? Totti's either on the verge of signing or has just signed a huge new contract (in terms of wages and length). He's there, on about a £100,000 a week+ until he's 37/38.


Like Legs I'm not too concerned with Mascherano's inevitable departure. I don't think he's come on half as well as I thought he would. Still the best in the world at what he does but considering the rather limited nature of that I don't really care. Fucked me off with his Barcelona bollocks in the summer.

... I'd cry like a bitch if it was Flamini replacing him though.

[Degs]

You're joking aren't you? Totti's either on the verge of signing or has just signed a huge new contract (in terms of wages and length). He's there, on about a £100,000 a week+ until he's 37/38.


Like Legs I'm not too concerned with Mascherano's inevitable departure. I don't think he's come on half as well as I thought he would. Still the best in the world at what he does but considering the rather limited nature of that I don't really care. Fucked me off with his Barcelona bollocks in the summer.

... I'd cry like a bitch if it was Flamini replacing him though.

I actually meant Italy, I think if they don't win the world cup next year there will be a switch round with De Rossi being made captain.
He wouldn;t want to jeopardise that by moving to a totally different league.

[No666]

I'm sure you're right, Degs. Just pricked me ears up when I heard it, though - would be a sweet upgrade on Mascherano. And I'd be happy with a swap for YT and a bit of cash if Barcelona come calling again...

[Ecuared]

To be honest, the 'whom-to-replace-Mach-with' debate isn't that much of a concern as it has been with Alonso, should we come to it. There are options such as Yaya Toure and Matthieu Flamini, as well as some other promising players like Lee Cattermole that we could keep an eye out on.

Good point but the part in bold made me throw up in my mouth a little.

[killer-heels]

Flamini isn't that bad. In fact I think he is pretty good. But I would obviously prefer Yaya Toure ahead of him and I certainly will be keeping an eye out on Lee Cattermole to see how he develops.

Will probably be keeping an eye out for some centre backs as well, most notably Ryan Shawcross.

[scatman]

De Rossi would be a great player for us, but a one man club it seems at present and Roma's fans would probably torch the Stadio Olimpico if it ever happened.

I think Cattermole is one to keep an eye on, was brilliant on Old Trafford on Saturday so was his captain Lorik Cana. He's not half bad on the ball either as well as being a good destructor, Cattermole that is.

[scatman]

Flamini isn't that bad. In fact I think he is pretty good. But I would obviously prefer Yaya Toure ahead of him and I certainly will be keeping an eye out on Lee Cattermole to see how he develops.

Will probably be keeping an eye out for some centre backs as well, most notably Ryan Shawcross.

I think Toure would be a big option, because if Masch does presumably go to Barca then it's gonna be Toure left in the lurch seeing as Sergio Busquets gets employed in that position frequently at the moment.

[Degs]

Flamini isn't that bad.

Already this season he's come out with this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ler5_0eSjRc&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ler5_0eSjRc&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

Nasty bastard.

As for Masch's replacement it'd realistically be Keita for me but he's coming up to 30 and while Masch's here he's here and I'm happy with that.

[scatman]

holy shit that is fucking essien-esque....

Doesnt Keita play a more forward role in the midfield? alongside Xavi?

[Degs]

holy shit that is fucking essien-esque....

Doesnt Keita play a more forward role in the midfield? alongside Xavi?

The thing about Barca is that it'd be hard to define anybody as playing a forwards or backwards role, centre halves included, if anything Keita is more of a tackler than Xavi but yes he does burst into the box to finish moves with a sidefoot but you have to wonder if that's because he's allowed to do that at Barca, same as Puyol and Pique and if he came here he'd be shackled.

[bigbear]

You're joking aren't you? Totti's either on the verge of signing or has just signed a huge new contract (in terms of wages and length). He's there, on about a £100,000 a week+ until he's 37/38.


Like Legs I'm not too concerned with Mascherano's inevitable departure. I don't think he's come on half as well as I thought he would. Still the best in the world at what he does but considering the rather limited nature of that I don't really care. Fucked me off with his Barcelona bollocks in the summer.

... I'd cry like a bitch if it was Flamini replacing him though.

Is Mascherano really the best in the world at what he does.

He is most certainly a great cover tackler but I'd take Essien in that role, perhaps YaYa too ahead of him.

As soon as he tries to pass forward in tight areas interceptons follow and I'm not referring to the first goal sunday as a knee jerk.

[royhendo]

Fuck me, are we still doing the sneering routine about Flamini? 

[Degs]

Fuck me, are we still doing the sneering routine about Flamini? 

I think anybody who has been watching this season has broadened it to a general sneering at AC Milan.

[Juan Loco]

Is Mascherano really the best in the world at what he does.

He is most certainly a great cover tackler but I'd take Essien in that role, perhaps YaYa too ahead of him.

As soon as he tries to pass forward in tight areas interceptons follow and I'm not referring to the first goal sunday as a knee jerk.

I'd have both players over him in general but I've said before I think to play them as pure defensive midfielders limits them.

I've said this before but to me Essien is the best midfielder in the world. Stick Xavi (and last season Alonso) up there as well but I love the guy as a footballer. He's a dynamo. I think he's wasted being asked to hold. They should have Ballack doing that and spraying the ball about and let Essien go whereever the hell he wants.

Obviously Toure has to curb his game 'cos Iniesta and Xavi are worth sitting back for, but try and check out some of the clips of him playing for Monaco. Anywhere else in the world and he'd be more than just a sitter.

[hesbighesred]

Fuck me, are we still doing the sneering routine about Flamini? 

Flamini strikes me as a decent shout given our changed emphasis. Granted, he's only really excelled for one season so far, but that could make him an Aquilani type gamble - someone who could perform beyond what their likely fee might be if AC really flop this season - and their decline has been well on the cards for years. In retrospect maybe Ancelotti did a better job there than I was giving him credit for, but really, no way Flamini could arrest that trend.

It's crazy that we're talking like Mash has gone though. I mean, FFS, Fabregas has practically had Barca's fly unzipped and their cock rammed in his increasingly sneering, arrogant and CRon9(TM - he's a brand not a footballer) like mouth for the past 3 or 4 seasons, tickling their balls and contemplating whether to reach around and give them the stinky finger but he's still at Arsenal, and they're not winning anything, or even looking all that likely to.

Yes it was annoying, but players have enjoyed long and successful careers at clubs having been far closer to leaving *coughgerrardallbeitindifferentcircumstancesbutstillplentyofotherscough*. He'll certainly change his tune if we can win the league or CL and give him a wage rise and attendant bonusses.

[bigbear]

I'd have both players over him in general but I've said before I think to play them as pure defensive midfielders limits them.

I've said this before but to me Essien is the best midfielder in the world. Stick Xavi (and last season Alonso) up there as well but I love the guy as a footballer. He's a dynamo. I think he's wasted being asked to hold. They should have Ballack doing that and spraying the ball about and let Essien go whereever the hell he wants.

Obviously Toure has to curb his game 'cos Iniesta and Xavi are worth sitting back for, but try and check out some of the clips of him playing for Monaco. Anywhere else in the world and he'd be more than just a sitter.

But they can both do that job and more which is what you want of a top class midfield player. At 1-0 down you want one who can push on and cause problems or create and I don't think Mascherano can do that.

I think he is as good as there is at covering across the pitch and closing down the opposition but the others are better in all areas and i'd say Essien was as good at the covering tackling aspect and closing if he's off the leash.

[royhendo]

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

[socrates the sophist]

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

Regarding balance, I think they are balanced. But the problem is that there might be a big gap between the DM's and Ronaldo and Kaka (which is similar to our problem). This forces Kaka to drop deeper at times. It also means that players like Xavi and Iniesta would have a field day playing against Madrid. Regarding Xabi he has had a solid start.

[Hank Scorpio]

Flamini is a very good player.  He is a great competitor and I would not mind seeing him in our midfield.  Arsenal finished 4 points off the top in 07/08 and then Flamini left and they finished 4th in 08/09.  Coincidence?  Maybe, but I would guess his absence played a part.  Wasn't he also off injured in the 4-2 CL game at Anfield (when the score was 1-1)?

Re: Mascherano

Honestly thought he was a lot better on the ball than he actually has shown for us.  I think part of his problem is a lack of discipline; he has shown this in other aspects of his play, arguing with referees etc.  In the centre of midfield you need a little bit of patience and just keep playing those short passes quickly and decisively.  Too often he either knocks the ball out of play or is prone to Carragher-style standing on the ball.

If he could improve his passing a little he would easily be the top midfielder in the world.  He doesn't need to create too often, just find those who can create often.

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

I reckon most sides would have found it difficult against Sevilla that night.  They terrorised Real and 2-1 defeat flattered them.

[Fuzion6]

If Mascherano goes - Momo Sissoko is the guy I would go for...he and Benitez have a good relationship as it is and with Felipe Melo at Juve - Momo could be squeezed out there.

Otherwise Hernanes is leading the next generation of great DMs. Not sure if he would come to Liverpool though over an Italian or Spanish club. Lee Cattermole wouldn't be a bad shout either but his value could be astronomical now given the English premium. Finally Ramires is another Brazillian with very high energy levels who would be a potential Mascherano replacement...

[abhred]

Melo won't fit. People would have a field day saying he's not actually 'Brazilian'.

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Change of subject - Revista last night.

They were talking about Surreal Madrid's lack of balance and inability to compete
in midfield. This after one loss to Sevilla.

Is it fair comment? I know we're studiously avoiding thoughts of Xabi, but how has he done thus far? How are they developing?

They've been mentioning it for the past couple of weeks now Roy. The consensus on Revista is that Kaka/Ronaldo don't do any work tracking back or pressurising like their counterparts at Barca and that Alonso/Lass are going to be shagged out by Christmas and that's when we'll see the Madrid project fall apart. Alonso/Lass are constantly pulling wide and running twice the usual distance per game type thing. At least that's the jist of what they've been talking about recently.

Sevilla have just been generally excellent. They're concerned that Real can't keep up playing the way they are without current personnel changing their attitudes towards playing more for the team.

[hesbighesred]

Honestly thought he was a lot better on the ball than he actually has shown for us.  I think part of his problem is a lack of discipline; he has shown this in other aspects of his play, arguing with referees etc.

I don't disagree with your post, but I really feel this is something of an overblown myth, I don't really get where it comes from. I know he's mouthy, but he's had just one red for us - how many times is he even booked?

He's a combative DM, yet he didn't even get suspended for breaching the yellow cards limit last season. You won't see that from Fletcher. Essien, Keane, Vieira - most comparable players you more or less expect one or two reds a season, and a fine collection of yellow cards, but Mash rarely gets booked, only been sent off once and is forever more tagged with 'bad discipline'.

Mouthy shit, yes. Pushes it, yes. Ill-discipline? No.

They've been mentioning it for the past couple of weeks now Roy. The consensus on Revista is that Kaka/Ronaldo don't do any work tracking back or pressurising like their counterparts at Barca and that Alonso/Lass are going to be shagged out by Christmas and that's when we'll see the Madrid project fall apart. Alonso/Lass are constantly pulling wide and running twice the usual distance per game type thing. At least that's the jist of what they've been talking about recently.

Sevilla have just been generally excellent. They're concerned that Real can't keep up playing the way they are without current personnel changing their attitudes towards playing more for the team.

Yeah, the real test of those two is when the chips are down. Do they knuckle down, work harder, get a team ethic together and improve? Or do toys start getting thrown out of prams? I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear about a Kaka/Ronaldo split in the dressing room there in the future. Kaka may seem humble but I have my doubts - he's a massive star and significant ego in his own right and I'm not convinced he'll take being in Ronaldo's greasy shadow longer term.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't disagree with your post, but I really feel this is something of an overblown myth, I don't really get where it comes from. I know he's mouthy, but he's had just one red for us - how many times is he even booked?

He's a combative DM, yet he didn't even get suspended for breaching the yellow cards limit last season. You won't see that from Fletcher. Essien, Keane, Vieira - most comparable players you more or less expect one or two reds a season, and a fine collection of yellow cards, but Mash rarely gets booked, only been sent off once and is forever more tagged with 'bad discipline'.

Mouthy shit, yes. Pushes it, yes. Ill-discipline? No.

This is just from my own observation but sometimes feel he has a loss of focus during the game due to being overrun by emotion/passion.  Yes, I know that is part of the fuel which drives him on but at times, imo, his emotions are in control of him rather than the other way around.  He makes a number of rash decisions, small things but they can be significant, when he is playing like that.

The Mascherano from the other day against Chelsea is the one we need to see more often.  Cool, calm, calculating.  He was completely focused that day and it is so unfortunate he lost that ball in midfield (even though I don't completely blame him, 5 players behind the ball at that time and yet we got beaten by 3 of theirs, wtf) because he would have been the platform which got us at least a result.

Torres is another one who can get rattled and lose focus.