Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1196891 times)

Offline abhred

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8360 on: October 17, 2009, 05:41:19 pm »
That was just cringeworthy.

We're very lucky that Chelsea lost. At the end, it's a 1 point lost to the leaders, rather than 3. And next week seems to be the perfect opportunity, to finally win a game.

But really, we were awful. It was painful watching Kuyt, Johnson, and Skrtel, trying to work the ball between themselves on the right flank and losing it. We had no midfield, and were restricted to the flanks. Can't think of even one time where we played through the middle.

There's just so much wrong in this team. All we can do is wait for the next game, and hope everything suddenly falls back in place.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8361 on: October 17, 2009, 05:42:41 pm »
He was stuck on the left again but couldn't even be arsed running.

Stupid decision to play him on the left wing though. Perverse.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8362 on: October 17, 2009, 05:49:53 pm »
Tell you what, if I was a Man City fan I'd be fucking chuffed looking at what is supposed to be standing in their way and I mean for the title, not just 4th place.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8363 on: October 17, 2009, 05:57:03 pm »
What I don't understand is why we look so weak? The back four look fragile as hell. The midfield wets themselves when someone puts them under any sort of pressure or aggression, while defenders can just bitch slap our attackers away.

I think somebody must have stolen their man bags full of mascara in pre-season.

We have never been a silky team but we always looked strong. Now we look neither.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8364 on: October 17, 2009, 06:02:37 pm »
I don't think we've looked a particularly physically imposing season since Rafa's 2nd season. Not saying it's not a better team now, but it's a lot less intimidating physically.


This team is just a bit bizarre really. It's a coherent enough 'footballing' outfit to be put in the Barcelona or Arsenal category and it certainly isn't powerful or robust enough to be put alongside the likes of the Mancs or Chelsea who are obdurate in the extreme.

It's just a mish mash. Some good players with decent movement but who don't actually appeared to be schooled or coached in that aspect of the game, they just happen to do their own thing and occasionally it works. I'm hoping they just need someone to tie them all together and dominate the centre of the pitch and obviously I'm hoping - again - that's Aquilani. Crossing fingers that he is going to be the glue that helps this current collection of players "make sense" on the pitch, 'cos at the moment it's a fucking patchwork.
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8365 on: October 17, 2009, 06:51:48 pm »
That was just cringeworthy.

We're very lucky that Chelsea lost. At the end, it's a 1 point lost to the leaders, rather than 3. And next week seems to be the perfect opportunity, to finally win a game.


1 point lost? The Mancs and Arsenal won right? And Chelsea beat us the other week- today was the chance to make it up but no one stepped up to it.

Lack of conviction, little desire and Babel doing is fannying out of 70/30 challenges job again. Don't know why N'Gog wasn't playing either to be honest, and what took so long for Voronin and N'Gog to finally come on. Waiting until the 70th minute to make changes in a match we were utterly ineffective in was a bad, bad decision.

And that fucking beach ball  :no It's fucking annoying watching us play like that, but when you consider the fact we lost in the end by a single goal caused by a dodgy beach ball deflected shot it's almost funny in its shiteness. When you consider that bastard beach ball had a Liverpool crest and was thrown on by a red... well you couldn't make it up.   :butt
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Offline redy

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8366 on: October 17, 2009, 07:34:25 pm »
I don't think we've looked a particularly physically imposing season since Rafa's 2nd season. Not saying it's not a better team now, but it's a lot less intimidating physically.


This team is just a bit bizarre really. It's a coherent enough 'footballing' outfit to be put in the Barcelona or Arsenal category and it certainly isn't powerful or robust enough to be put alongside the likes of the Mancs or Chelsea who are obdurate in the extreme.

It's just a mish mash. Some good players with decent movement but who don't actually appeared to be schooled or coached in that aspect of the game, they just happen to do their own thing and occasionally it works. I'm hoping they just need someone to tie them all together and dominate the centre of the pitch and obviously I'm hoping - again - that's Aquilani. Crossing fingers that he is going to be the glue that helps this current collection of players "make sense" on the pitch, 'cos at the moment it's a fucking patchwork.

I am very certain that Aquilani will turn it around. I don't even think he needs to play like a world beater or something. Just pass the ball forward and a bit better than what's been seen so far. If he and Lucas start it will be much better with Lucas keeping it ticking over and Aquilani with more probing passes. As of now I cannot see Lucas and Masch improving the team much neither providing incisive enough passing from the middle, infact 3 out of first choice 4 midfield cannot be relied upon for creativity/incisive passing.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8367 on: October 17, 2009, 08:50:43 pm »
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

Offline Degs

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8368 on: October 17, 2009, 09:38:50 pm »
Everyone remembers Bullseye right?
And what Jim Bowen would say when the greedy bastards went for the gamble and lost?

Let's see what you could have won.

That's what today was.  Today was the chance for our squad to show it's depth and while we're not the only ones guilty of it (Mancs second string losing at Burnley) that certainly doesn't excuse the owners, the players, and Rafa, of allowing us to slip once again into what looks like a team battling for 4th and not the title.  Sure, sure, sure it was a freak goal but to be honest they should have scored 4 and we could have played 180 minutes and not scored.  We were outplayed, outmuscled, and outclassed by players that should be wearing red.

Yes, the players we came up against today that ran the show were players we have been linked with throughout the summer.  We know for sure we were in for man-mountain Michael Turner and the excellent Cattermole but we've also been linked with Drogbaesque Kenwyne Jones and there was very strong talk of Cana being the one to replace Alonso.

There's alot of dead wood now at our club, players that should have been shipped out in summer.  You know the obvious ones Babel, Voronin, Dossenna, Degen.  Then there's the people who some think won't make the grade, Lucas, and Spearing falling into those categories. Then of course there's the less obvious ones who you think we might be able to make some significant money off: Benayoun is being looked at by City, we turned down a 15 million pound bid from Hamburg for Kuyt. 

There's alot we don't know about behind the scenes, but our net spend this year was £0, the cancer at our club is going to kill us and it's from the top. It's one thing to bemoan bad signings and keeping hold of them but it's an infinite amount worse to know you can't sell these rubbish players and be guaranteed of spending what you take in for them.

We should be signing the likes of David Silva with money being recouped from player sales but that's going on private jets and interest payments.
We're sorely in danger of not making 4th and I said at the start of the season I was worried our title challenge would be over before Aquilani kicked a ball: it's yet to start never mind finish.  We haven't beaten a team yet who I'd expect to finish in the top 10.  That's shocking for October.

For me we've taken one step forwards and two steps back.
All our hopes now rest on a player who has only just started kicking a ball for the first time in half a year and the rest of our players staying fit.  We have no squad to fall back on.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 09:42:11 pm by Degs »

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8369 on: October 17, 2009, 10:52:14 pm »
Saddens me that after five years of Rafa in charge. There's no footballing philosophy at the club.

There's no mode of play to fall back on when we want to chase a game. It's just eleven players running round, heads up their arses, shitting their pants, all at the same time. It was cringing to watch, and embarrassing. To concede that early, and form then on, never really look like getting a goal. Depressing.

*gah*

Then you look at the squad, and after five years of building, there's riff raff like Degen, Voronin, Dossena eating up wages. Players like Lucas, Riera and Babel who we're relying on, for something. Anything. But get nothing(or very little in Lucas's case).


Offline redy

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8370 on: October 17, 2009, 11:00:59 pm »
Saddens me that after five years of Rafa in charge. There's no footballing philosophy at the club.

There's no mode of play to fall back on when we want to chase a game. It's just eleven players running round, heads up their arses, shitting their pants, all at the same time. It was cringing to watch, and embarrassing. To concede that early, and form then on, never really look like getting a goal. Depressing.

*gah*

Then you look at the squad, and after five years of building, there's riff raff like Degen, Voronin, Dossena eating up wages. Players like Lucas, Riera and Babel who we're relying on, for something. Anything. But get nothing(or very little in Lucas's case).



That for me is the biggest criticism and mistake he has made.. It is a huge fallacy to think that they are cheap coz they are free transfers. Their wages am sure can cover for another purchase, if not a young player can be attracted with higher wages with those wages. These don't even play. Why are they in the squad at all? I am not advocating playing them but rather moving them on. Lucas, Riera are decent squad players IMO and Babel while a failure was bought for potential and they can turn out flops. But why waste money on these supposed squad players who are not even playing/ who won't even be played coz he doesn't have faith in them anyway.

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8371 on: October 17, 2009, 11:06:35 pm »
That for me is the biggest criticism and mistake he has made.. It is a huge fallacy to think that they are cheap coz they are free transfers. Their wages am sure can cover for another purchase, if not a young player can be attracted with higher wages with those wages. These don't even play. Why are they in the squad at all? I am not advocating playing them but rather moving them on. Lucas, Riera are decent squad players IMO and Babel while a failure was bought for potential and they can turn out flops. But why waste money on these supposed squad players who are not even playing/ who won't even be played coz he doesn't have faith in them anyway.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6872396.ece

"Alright Tony. Why did the Voronin and Dossena deals fall through? Also, does anyone at LFC think Degen is good enough for the 1st team?

by James

Alright James, the only reason why those potential deals fell through was that Benitez could not afford to see his squad depleted still further. In the absence of a clear reassurance that he would be able to reinvest money brought in then he didn't really have any option but to keep him. If there is anyone at Liverpool who still believes Degen is good enough for the first team then questions should be asked about their ability to work for the club.

by Tony Barrett at Thu Oct 15 2009 13:30:05 GMT+0100 (GMT Daylight Time)"

Offline BazC

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8372 on: October 17, 2009, 11:13:29 pm »
I wouldn't go that far. The football philosophy we clearly have is one of valuing hardwork. Our football is about being aggressive, closing down spaces quickly, putting bodies on the line when needed and winning the ball back. When we win the ball back we then look to pass it quickly to our potent attackers to do the business.

ALL those things have fallen down one by one this season. A pussy defence that has about as much aggression as a kitten. Winning the ball is all well and good, but we have to keep it. We don't much these days it seems. Our attackers have been potent, but today they were shite. Then you have instances, and this is the biggest one that pisses me off, when there's a handful of players not pulling their weight in terms of putting in the graft.


Ryan Babel seems to have done his best encapsulating everything that's wrong with this team at the moment. Lack of conviction, no hard work, tentative, no aggression despite the strength, technical ability on paper but no application on the field.... but flashes of brilliance at times.

Rafa has a problem here. He's exhausted nearly all the slack we have in terms of losing points during a season in 3 months. In order to win the title, we now face a monumental task- at the very, very least it's a 2.4 pts a game average we need. And that gets us to 85 points in total, which in itself depends on teams like Chelsea and Man U slipping up a lot more than they have previously, and teams like Arsenal and Man City to not enter the mix.

In order to solve these abysmal problems, there needs to be a bit of an overhaul in my opinion. Defensively, there's no 2 ways about it anymore; we're shite. Skrtel had a shocker today and I can't believe we only lost 1-0 even considering it was Sunderland. Carra displayed the reason why there're frustrations with him as well; he saves our arses one minute, and literally 2 minutes later he's close to putting a chance on the plate for Sunderland.

Last season we almost won the league by taking on some risks after that Boro game. Well Rafa, take the risks now. Defensively we're barely challenging for the CL- thankfully our attackers seem to have bailed us out a lot this season (3-2 wins, attacking obliterations). We won't win the league with Skrtel and Carra. Hell, we won't even challenge this season with them in my opinion. I just don't get why they've gone from a decent level (never brilliant) to a piss poor one.

That's the risk we need to take in my opinion- changing the defence around. Aquilani will be back soon enough as well, and hopefully he can fortify the attack when Gerrard and Torres are out- Lucas can't lead the midfield on his own when he's depended on yet which obviously causes problems for the attackers. Hopefully Aquilani, with his experience and quality, can add that to the midfield again- we need 3 players with the ability to control a midfield and really make an impact. We only have 2 at the moment and both were out of the starting line up today.

Oh, and another risk I want us to take is with N'Gog. He deserves it more than Babel at the moment and I can't believe the lad got 10 minutes today whilst Babel got 70+.

It's season defining time now. Even this early on. The Mancs and Chelsea are doing what we were doing at this time last season- playing poorly but getting results. But this time, Arsenal and Man City seem to be well capable of being in the mix so we're going to have our work cut out.

Manc win is vital and necessary in my opinion. And I shy away from making such bold remarks about a game that's so, so early on in the season.
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Offline redy

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8373 on: October 17, 2009, 11:14:31 pm »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6872396.ece

"Alright Tony. Why did the Voronin and Dossena deals fall through? Also, does anyone at LFC think Degen is good enough for the 1st team?

by James

Alright James, the only reason why those potential deals fell through was that Benitez could not afford to see his squad depleted still further. In the absence of a clear reassurance that he would be able to reinvest money brought in then he didn't really have any option but to keep him. If there is anyone at Liverpool who still believes Degen is good enough for the first team then questions should be asked about their ability to work for the club.

by Tony Barrett at Thu Oct 15 2009 13:30:05 GMT+0100 (GMT Daylight Time)"

Fair enough, but part of my point is also that they should never have been brought/bought. I would rather somebody like Ngog or a promising young striker who won't take the same wages as Voronin, somebody who you think can/will improve while being a 3rd choice striker. As for Degen and Dossena their places should ahve been given to Darby/Insua. My point being Dossena shouldn't have been bought when Insua is there. I understand he may not have had the same faith last year as he has now probably, but its cost 7m. As for Degen should never have been bought and in any case his place as backup should go to a homegrown/youth/academy product, which I understand can take time. Hopefully Insua coming through is a sign of things similar what I am talking about.

Offline redy

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8374 on: October 17, 2009, 11:19:44 pm »
The Mancs and Chelsea are doing what we were doing at this time last season- playing poorly but getting results. But this time, Arsenal and Man City seem to be well capable of being in the mix so we're going to have our work cut out.

Disagree here. Chelsea were playing fine until the last 2 games. Mancs have been decent, not great not bad. Arsenal have been good. I thought Chelsea were favourites. But it looks much more open than a few weeks ago now. Unfortunately there won't be much of a mention of Liverpool in there unless things change.

Offline Franck Le Poof

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8375 on: October 17, 2009, 11:43:36 pm »
Spearing and Babel for me but Voronin's cameos this season do deserve a call up. He's always made something different happen.
He reminds me a great deal of Lucas. It sounds weird but they both share a knack for seeing good penetrative passes that other's don't and they are quick to making those passes. He came on with Mascherano and they improved our use of possession a great deal.
This team is just a bit bizarre really. It's a coherent enough 'footballing' outfit to be put in the Barcelona or Arsenal category and it certainly isn't powerful or robust enough to be put alongside the likes of the Mancs or Chelsea who are obdurate in the extreme.

It's just a mish mash. Some good players with decent movement but who don't actually appeared to be schooled or coached in that aspect of the game, they just happen to do their own thing and occasionally it works. I'm hoping they just need someone to tie them all together and dominate the centre of the pitch and obviously I'm hoping - again - that's Aquilani. Crossing fingers that he is going to be the glue that helps this current collection of players "make sense" on the pitch, 'cos at the moment it's a fucking patchwork.
That's what I've been saying for a while now - just not quite as succinctly. It's exactly the case, we can play any type of football we need to depending on the opposition but we don't impose ourselves unless it's against weak opposition (see: Stoke and Burnley).


We won't win the league with Skrtel and Carra. Hell, we won't even challenge this season with them in my opinion. I just don't get why they've gone from a decent level (never brilliant) to a piss poor one.
Absolutely shocking, isn't it? The pair of them manage to blow hot and cold a hundred instances in one match. One minute they make a goal-saving tackle, the next one of them nearly puts it on a platter for the opposition attack. They even had Agger, usually one of the calmest of presences in defence, looking nervous. Hell, the few times we had (useful) possession of the ball he was reluctant to maraud forward 'cos lately the pair of them can't be trusted.

Poor Spearing though. The lad is getting stick for not imposing himself on the game when if you take all the factors into consideration, he had a lot going against him. Forget the nerves he'd have had due to it being his first start in the league and it being his big chance to prove himself, sticking him in a ground with a bustling atmosphere against a team with an extremely combative midfield, in front of a defence that has never been so shaky and behind a midfield that could barely string three meaningful passes together or win a 50/50 tackle without giving away a foul, was always going to make things difficult for him. Hell, I wouldn't even go along with him playing in that defensive midfield slot, his usefulness is a bit further forward. Ah, well.

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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8376 on: October 17, 2009, 11:49:36 pm »
I wouldn't go that far. The football philosophy we clearly have is one of valuing hardwork. Our football is about being aggressive, closing down spaces quickly, putting bodies on the line when needed and winning the ball back.

No offence mate, but I don't think that's a footballing philosophy. Every team in Europe wants to do that. If that is as deep as Rafa's vision for a team goes then it's fucking pathetic, let's be totally honest about that. Every good team works hard. Simple. That's not their philosophy though. Mourinho's Chelsea, Yernited and Barcelona work hard but 3 more different teams you couldn't wish to find.

What exactly is the vision here? With due respect to what is a great initial post that got this thread going, let's get rid of the rhetoric and question what this philosophy or idea of playing football is about.

The phrase "a Liverpool player" is mentioned a fair bit but the meaning is still locked in the past. When people say "he's a Liverpool player" they're talking about the teams of the 70s and the 80s where there was a philosophy throughout the club - You pass, you move. There isn't a template now for a modern day Liverpool player. There's a type of player that Rafa clearly values but that's because of work rate and attitude, not a particular style. Liverpool under Rafa Benitez don't have a style. It changes every bloody season. First off it was meant to be like Mourinho's Chelsea, but slow building (IE from the back because we couldn't exactly go out and buy a Duff and Robben) then Rafa seemed to think, after the 2nd season in charge, that he needed to be more expansive. That failed miserably initially with some shit buys and we reverted back to the Chelsea-lite sans-attacking threat for the rest of the season. Then it was more expansive with quality players. Say what you like about those two cancerous leaches in charge of the club but without the money spent (or borrowed against the club) in the 2007-08 you'd have to question where exactly we'd be. Torres, Mascherano, Skrtel, Benayoun. That was an injection of quality but still no real style. Let off the leash 2nd half of the year after being too cautious the first... and again last season. Towards the end of last season it finally looked to have clicked but again, just a purple patch, another summer of reinvention (forced to a degree) has followed. 10 months ago our players played in 10 yard invisible cells, now they move all over the pitch. The whole core philosophy changes all the fucking time.

What type of team are we?

I was going to mention this as a concern for all the young players we buy that go straight into the reserves, but fuck it, I'll broaden it out - how many players have been signed in Rafa's reign that have been moulded into "Liverpool players"?

I realise it's a vague question, but still. We've had plenty of players that Rafa has bought and coached into far better players than they were when they arrived. Gerrard, Torres, Reina, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Benayoun -Let's face it the list goes on. Individually Rafa's taken their game to a whole new level. But, who has actually been moulded to fit into a team? A style of play that lasts longer than 6 months?

I can watch La Liga or the Bundesliga and I can see players who immediately jump out at me and say "Yeah, they'd be perfect at Arsenal" (I said as much with Arshavin well before he was signed). With Liverpool I see players and I think "Yeah, he'd be fucking great because he's a very good player" but I don't ever think "yeah, he'd slot in perfectly and suit our style of play down to the ground". Our style of play and philosophy adapts to each individual player, at a lot of other clubs it seems to be the players that adapt to the philosophy (but then they're usually signed because they have the tools to make that transition pretty smooth).

Isn't that what happened under Shankly and Paisley? The idea was there to begin with you just signed the best players possible to execute it? Under Rafa it seems to be "sign the best players you can and then try and figure something out, and if it doesn't work quickly scrap the players, and the system, and start over again pretty quickly". The turnover of personnel and ideas under Rafa's tenure has been fucking scary. It's non-stop.


I'm a huge fan of Rafa, I think he's as good a bet as anyone to win the league (fuck me when Mourinho is the alternative then Rafa is easily the best out there) but this is the 6th season now and we're getting dangerously close to being out of a title race before the turn of the year once again. This would be the fifth time in 6 seasons... There's patience and then there's ignoring the obvious.

There are some pretty glaring blind spots that need a bit of light shed upon them and questions asked. Why we have no footballing identity is one. The way he uses the youngsters is another. He threw Spearing to the wolves today and it's not the first time he's done it with a young lad. Conversely, when there's been a chance to introduce a youngster in a relatively "low pressure" game he's always gone for over-paid, uninterested squad players... which means come next summer he has no faith in those youngsters and so brings in more cheap and cheerful squaddies, hoping to eek an Arbeloa or two out of the dross but generally ending up with more uninterested squad players who put another body in the way of a youngster.

Oh yes, and finally, those substitutions. People can piss and moan about the bitter bluenose saying Rafa's "playing the game on paper" with them, but he has more than a little bit of a point. The is nothing progressive or reactive about his substitutions. They're all preplanned. Every. Fucking. Game.

Do a lot of our substitutes score goals off the bench? Yes. Are the stats impressive? Yes.

That's not because they're wonderful, game changing substitutions though most of the time. That's because Rafa is a fucking brilliant manager who is good enough to think about these things ahead of time. The scenarios are pre-planned and often work... that still doesn't mean that he's brilliant at reacting to problems with changes 'cos he clearly isn't. He is unbelievable stubborn with regards to making changes and is tied to his preconceived ideas of how the game is going to go. More often than not he's right because he is a very good manager, but christ, it'd be nice to see a reaction to things as they're going on. Ad Lib once in a while, don't always read off the bloody script.
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8377 on: October 18, 2009, 12:18:19 am »
No offence mate, but I don't think that's a footballing philosophy. Every team in Europe wants to do that. If that is as deep as Rafa's vision for a team goes then it's fucking pathetic, let's be totally honest about that. Every good team works hard. Simple. That's not their philosophy though. Mourinho's Chelsea, Yernited and Barcelona work hard but 3 more different teams you couldn't wish to find. ...

Good post, and I agree with bits and pieces.

But I do think it's a valid philosophy- to work hard and put in the effort when not in possession from the top down, and to depend on speed of counter attack and quality of passing when the ball's won. There're values in total football- Rafa likes his defenders to attack and his attackers to defend (it's what inspired my Chessboxing post on this board).

The typical Rafa players would be Kuyt, Agger, Reina, Gerrard and Johnson... they all give you quality when they attack/defend from their position on the field (relative to the way other players in their positions attack/defend) and the emphasis on working hard is instilled into them as well.

It's typically Liverpool in this age.

What's not so great about the system is that it's too rigid. Too many tactical and positional burdens which sometimes look like they're suffocating our football. It's not like teams like Arsenal, Barcelona or Man U where the emphasis seems to be to play open football- open the game up and depend on the level of quality in the team to win games. We seem to close the game in and use that aggression and closing down to limit space for the opposition, then hit them on the counter.

Well we did. Since Xabi's gone (and he was the main player in that 'close the game, restrict space, counter attack' type set up) we've had no choice but to open up our game. But we've been left wanting because we haven't had the quality in the middle of the park or the defence to go toe to toe with the decent teams. It's worked well against the poorer sides of course.

The more I think about it, the more it seems as our season hinges on Aquilani hitting it off quickly. He needs to bridge that quality gap that exists between Lucas and the rest of our CMs. And however much we defend Lucas and his development, he's still nowhere near being a world class CM yet. To win the league we'll need to put that right and the only player who can I guess, is Aquilani.

As soon as we have that quality in the middle of the park, hopefully the new open football we've been forced to play will be more effective against the decent and semi-decent sides in this league. So far, we've failed against every such side we've come against I think- Tottenham, Villa, Fiorentina and Chelsea beat us and our attackers had no answer really. Sunderland was much of the same. The teams we have beaten this season haven't been that great. Perhaps West Ham but I doubt they're finishing in the top half this season.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8378 on: October 18, 2009, 12:25:33 am »
Speaking of the system I think today's is very good for us, just not with those players.

Johnson and Insua have been caught inbetween full-back and wing-back when faced with any pair of wingers while Carragher and Skrtel have been exposed for pace.
Having Gerrard and Aquilani in the middle charging forward while Masch sweeps up would be very good.

---------------------Reina--------------------

----------Skrtel-----Carra---Agger-----------
Johnson---------------------------------Insua

---------------------Masch--------------------

--------Stevie------------------Aquilani-------


------------------------Benayoun-------------
-------------Torres---------------------------

I think that will work and I hope the baby doesn't go out with the bathwater.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8379 on: October 18, 2009, 12:36:09 am »
Got to disagree with JL there. There's lots of players I look at at other clubs and think they'd be bloody perfect for us, and we've been linked with more than a few:

Malouda, Milner, Essien, Heskey, C.Cole, J.Cole, Young, Carvalho, Puyol, Simao, ...

Keys are hard working and versatile, but also skilled footballers with the capacity or potential to play one touch at pace. I honestly think it's nonsense to say there's no 'style' or no 'plan b', or even worse what bob said about us being clueless when going a goal down. Bloody hell - for a team that's clueless we've turned over 1-0 defecits a staggering number of times.

But the fact is that our defence hasn't really performed this season, and today with all the injuries, and that freak early goal, we just didn't look confident - and obviously some of Rafa's decisions didn't help today. Still though, no team has a 'style' or a 'plan b' when confidence is lacking. I'm not saying there aren't bigger problems, but come on. The style we're aiming for was clear at Valencia and it's been crystal clear whenever we've played well that season, and Rafa has multiple plan b's. There's very few teams able to adapt their style as well as we do.

You know, we're only 7 points off the top? Sure, we've been in really poor form, and it's been a shite start, but guess what? Agger's back, Aurelio's had the couple of shockers he generally has after a long lay off, should be much better from now. Argentina are all qualified so Insua and Mash should be more reliable. Aquilani's close to full fitness. By beating Man U we nearly turned around this kind of gap right at the end of a season, there's still sooooo much time left. Of course there's reasons for concern, but there's also some genuine grounds for optimism. I feel actually strangely better now than after the chelsea defeat, because I get a feeling that the Mancs will feel some backlash, and we'll start putting things right again, because they're honestly just not that good, and for me are a great team for us to meet at this point.

I also strongly feel we're due some luck. The goal decision today was abysmal - I'm amazed more isn't being made of it, because it's as bad in it's own way as those 'phantom goal/non-goal' decisions we saw with Crystal Palace and Norwich, was it, last season?

Indeed, this one is actually worse. In those instances at least the refs clearly genuinely thought they were making the right decision - they knew the rules. Today's reffing team, between them, didn't know a very, very basic rule that, as Jeff Winter pointed out, is one of the very early things you learn, and the kind of possible hypothetical that you will tend to get tested on because although rare, it does happen. That's why the rules are so clear about it. So basically, while I don't at all believe decisions even out (IE there's levels of ref bias in the league) I do kind of believe in karma, and that was a real huge dollop of the bad karma. I'd like to think we have some good news coming our way because 2 best players injured plus as shocking a ref decision as you will see in this or any other season means good luck in the bank.

Not that we need to rely on that, because we've got good players coming back, good players who should be match fit, plenty of games left, the mancs next up and a point to prove - and when have we ever failed with our backs right up against the wall under Benitez?

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8380 on: October 18, 2009, 12:36:31 am »
Hmm... I thought that system was utterly abysmal.

3 CBs is a big problem because Skrtel and Agger seemed to be doing the fullback job a lot of times- attacking down the flanks. It's not good to have that because especially Skrtel is absolute shite in that position. Him giving the ball away and playing a crap backpass from RB should have resulted in 2 more goals conceded against us today- thankfully we escaped. Agger's wasted there as well- we need him attacking down the middle of the park not from the flanks.

I think Johnson would benefit from it though, but he's not crap in a flat back 4 so I do think the downsides are bigger than the upsides. Aurelio and Insua- likewise.


I still want to see a 4-3-3 of sorts:

-------------Reina-----------------

Johnson--Carra---Agger--Insua

------------Mascherano------------

---------Gerrard--------Aquilani---

Kuyt--------------------------Yossi

---------------Torres---------------

With the players between Torres and Mascherano playing a freer, interchangeable game to promote better movement, less rigidity and more creativity. I class the 4-2-3-1 with Aquilani playing 'between' Masch and Gerrard as pretty much the same thing to be honest, but I do believe Gerrard needs to have more responsibility in the middle of the park rather than just as an attacker nowadays.

Having 3 CBs with wingbacks has too much potential for confusion at this stage of the season and could leave us with situations where we're neither here nor there- getting caught on the flanks when attacked, and having no support down the flanks when attacking.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8381 on: October 18, 2009, 12:43:24 am »
Nahh. 3-5-2 variants are limited, especially vulnerable to 4-5-1 variants, and there's a reason no-one uses it anymore. It can be very effective against a more traditional 4-4-2, which is why today made a kind of sense, but both Agger and Skrtel did a fairly poor job of making up the extra midfielder. If we used it all the time we'd be exposed, and lose a lot against 4-5-1's. Longer term it also makes nigh on impossible demands on the wing-backs - I don't think it's physically sustainable, to be honest.

A point on Spearing, by the way, today was not ideal for him to come in, and I personally think he should be used further forward, but that was still a test, and he still failed it. Debut or not, he's been a DM/CM for a long time, trained with the first team for a long time. Has a lot of support from team mates and fans, of the kind that I still think would see Lucas really show what he's capable of, and on his full, first team debut, didn't make one single tackle, as a DM, as well as some bad mistakes in possession. The latter is no issue for me - totally understandable in the circumstances, but it's worrying to see any DM in any match at any stage of their careers completely fail to win the ball back, against a team that isn't even that good on the ball. I'd be happy to see more of him subbing in for the '3', mind, but I'd be very surprised if he has a long term future for us at DM. Still, good luck to him and I really hope he can bounce back from this.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8382 on: October 18, 2009, 12:44:45 am »
Hmm... I thought that system was utterly abysmal.
Yes, I agree today it was bad, but that's because of what we had around and in front of the back line.

Aurelio had his worst game since last season away to Man City and was neither full back nor wing back, he refused ot put tackles in and let them walk into the box.  He then passed the ball everytime at left back instea dof running meaning that Carra Agger and Skrtel had to move forward with it, Glen Johnson was constantly in the box because Nobody else was.

With 3 world class central midfielders rather than a lad on his debut, a second striker, and the unproductive Lucas then he'd have alot more freedom to fulfil HIS role than everybody elses. Coming back to those 3 as well although there was effort from Spearing he was very sloppy with the ball and Lucas was shown up by Cattermole for what a man with drive can be, Benayoun was out of position.  The 3 centre hlaves didn't know what to do with the ball when they got it because there were no outlets, Spearing and Lucas were being outmuscled, Benayoun was further forward, Aurelio was in the front row, and Johnson was in and around the box.  If Masch was there to fill in while Agger and even Skrtel went through the middle a la Pique then we'd be able to see this fluid interchange we've been after especially with 2 creative men in the middle and the natural athletes of Insua and Johnson getting up and down the wings.

Today was a write off, it's still a formation worthy of discovery and can't be tossed aside just because Lucas, Spearing, Babel, Voronin, etc. can;t play it.  It has the potential to play everybody in their best position and we haven't had that for years on end.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8383 on: October 18, 2009, 01:04:37 am »
I don't think Lucas was shown up at all degs. Considering his DM partner didn't manage to make a single tackle he did well to supply anything, and the fact is that he did supply several excellent passes into feet for the forwards - he made the chance for Benayoun's left foot shot, and also the pass into Benny that was flicked on that Johnson nearly got on the end of. Considering he was essentially doing the job of 2 people, he did pretty well up against two very useful ball winners.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8384 on: October 18, 2009, 01:17:31 am »
Yes, I agree today it was bad, but that's because of what we had around and in front of the back line.

Aurelio had his worst game since last season away to Man City and was neither full back nor wing back, he refused ot put tackles in and let them walk into the box.  He then passed the ball everytime at left back instea dof running meaning that Carra Agger and Skrtel had to move forward with it, Glen Johnson was constantly in the box because Nobody else was.

With 3 world class central midfielders rather than a lad on his debut, a second striker, and the unproductive Lucas then he'd have alot more freedom to fulfil HIS role than everybody elses. Coming back to those 3 as well although there was effort from Spearing he was very sloppy with the ball and Lucas was shown up by Cattermole for what a man with drive can be, Benayoun was out of position.  The 3 centre hlaves didn't know what to do with the ball when they got it because there were no outlets, Spearing and Lucas were being outmuscled, Benayoun was further forward, Aurelio was in the front row, and Johnson was in and around the box.  If Masch was there to fill in while Agger and even Skrtel went through the middle a la Pique then we'd be able to see this fluid interchange we've been after especially with 2 creative men in the middle and the natural athletes of Insua and Johnson getting up and down the wings.

Today was a write off, it's still a formation worthy of discovery and can't be tossed aside just because Lucas, Spearing, Babel, Voronin, etc. can;t play it.  It has the potential to play everybody in their best position and we haven't had that for years on end.

My problem with the formation is the back line. In that I don't think I have much faith in the 3 CBs we'd have to play there- as I said, Skrtel shouldn't be allowed to play any position resembling RB (and we learnt this last season- it's been bolded today, let's hope Rafa doesn't need it underlining, coloured red and capitalised to take notice).

I agree about the CM though.

I don't think Lucas was shown up at all degs. Considering his DM partner didn't manage to make a single tackle he did well to supply anything, and the fact is that he did supply several excellent passes into feet for the forwards - he made the chance for Benayoun's left foot shot, and also the pass into Benny that was flicked on that Johnson nearly got on the end of. Considering he was essentially doing the job of 2 people, he did pretty well up against two very useful ball winners.

Let's be fair Seb. Lucas was nowhere today. And it may have been because of Spearing, but that in itself is the problem. Lucas is a player who needs to be directed and one who doesn't seem to have that confidence to take charge of the game. You couldn't say that about Sissoko, Alonso and Mascherano (and neither Gerrard back in the day) when they were his age.

Today we needed Lucas to lead the midfield and he couldn't do it. I hope he can develop that ability, but if he doesn't it may not be a big problem as long as we have the players around him who we can turn to.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8385 on: October 18, 2009, 01:31:46 am »
he did pretty well up against two very useful ball winners.
No he never.
Neither did Spearing.

If you think that performance is pretty well then I want what you're on, he made one half decent pass to Benayoun and was outpassed by Cana and outmuscled by Cattermole.  Spearing was bad, Lucas was marginally better.

It's like comparing working on the counter or on the fryer in Maccies, sure one is better but you'd do anything to not choose between the 2.
They BOTH were poor and BOTH did nothing to suggest they belong in the first team.

If that's "pretty good" I'd hate to see him have a shocker.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8386 on: October 18, 2009, 01:34:59 am »
Baz - his defensive midfield partner didn't make a single tackle. It's fair that Spearing could have benefitted from an older head beside him, but from what I saw Lucas was talking him through it all the way, he did lead the midfield. He made tackles, and got a number of good passes into the box. It's astoundingly harsh to say he was 'nowhere' when he set up two of the only decent chances we made all day, and while we couldn't get a grip on midfield he made very good use of the ball when he had it.

However, the fact is no midfielder can function ahead of a DM who fails to win a single tackle, especially against a combative opposition midfield. As for the confidence - well, he took charge on his debut, he was apparently (according to the telegraph) 'outstanding' for brazil, and he's been a captain. Just because his leadership isn't what we, or maybe his team-mates are used to, doesn't mean he doesn't have any. If he had the same unquestioned trust and backing from fans and team-mates that Spearing does we'd be seeing a much different player.

Still, regardless of that, he wasn't nowhere today. He didn't 'succeed' in dominating Cattermole and Cana by himself, but while being the entire midfield basically by himself he still managed to supply a lot of the few cutting passes the team made, as I say including two that led to two of our only decent chances in the game. He was actually one of my few relative positives to take from the game, all things considered - and it's not like I blindly cheerlead him either, I thought he was pretty poor against Chelsea and against Fiorentina - but today he still made things happen, which is pretty much all I can ask of a young midfielder with no support from his partner at all.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8387 on: October 18, 2009, 01:39:22 am »
No he never.
Neither did Spearing.

If you think that performance is pretty well then I want what you're on, he made one half decent pass to Benayoun and was outpassed by Cana and outmuscled by Cattermole.  Spearing was bad, Lucas was marginally better.
You're passing judgement on a performance you clearly didn't watch properly. He made two quality cutting passes to Benayoun that led to more or less our best chances, and actually found him in the box three times, and was making decent forward passes all game. There's a limit to what he can do if his partner doesn't win a single tackle, because that means Lucas was simply unable to try and get forward more, because there was nothing behind him. But for me, if those passes have turned into your mind into 'one half decent ball' - you weren't watching the lad properly. It was pretty well, because, as I say again, he had NO partner, and was having to compete against the two C's by himself. That it ended up with 50/50 possession suggests he did indeed do pretty well because, once again, his ball winning partner, on the day, couldn't bloody well win the ball. That would have made life very difficult for anyone he played with.

Anyway - goodnight everyone, don't let the beach balls bite!
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8388 on: October 18, 2009, 01:50:02 am »
You're passing judgement on a performance you clearly didn't watch properly.
When you're arguing against almost everybody else I'd level that at you.

You've got your rose tinted Lucas glasses fully on show here, just because he played better than Spearing does not mean he played well.  2 passes doesn't make a 97 minute performance a good one. If you go out looking for positives you'll find them, just like irrational Spearing fans will find positives in the way he shouts, or points for the ball, or throws himself about despite him playing a stinker you're doing the exact same with Lucas.  I'm guilty of it but never with Liverpool players, I do watch the match despite you might think with the only agenda being for Liverpool to win not for my favourite player to outperform the one next to him.  I know what it's like, whenever Zanetti or Lizazaru had a half decent game I'd proclaim them as world beaters because they were 2 of my favourite players, you go looking for the positives and ignore the negatives.

He was poor, barring probably Reina and Johnson they all were.

Take the glasses off, you clearly didn't watch properly.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8389 on: October 18, 2009, 09:12:32 am »
Brass tacks wyse the results are unacceptable, pure and simple.

The pressure's on big style and we've said it before (it's not been 210 pages of rhetoric Juan as you well know) but Rafa, if he wants to truly follow through on the whole 'end-to-end project' thing, has got a difficult period facing him. People are arguing 'we're only x points behind so and so' at the moment and others are trying to keep a calm head, but that's increasingly hard to do.

I'm not sure on the whole 'footballing philosophy' thing Bob mate - it'd be interesting to read your posts from the tail end of last season on that front. The problem is we're not integrated, and integration takes time. The results aren't buying that time.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8390 on: October 18, 2009, 10:11:38 am »
Quote
Lucas is a player who needs to be directed and one who doesn't seem to have that confidence to take charge of the game. You couldn't say that about Sissoko, Alonso and Mascherano (and neither Gerrard back in the day) when they were his age.

I would have to agree with this. I had been hoping responsibility would raise him, but it has not. The fact he was outstanding for Brazil may be that mentally he relaxed while surrounded by that amount of talent and experience. You see the same here; he's tangibly much happier playing next to Stevie. Enjoyed your post JL - or let us say, plenty of food for thought. Off to put on a Leonard Cohen album...

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8391 on: October 18, 2009, 10:40:35 am »
I think we do have or did have an 'identity' until last seasons performances when we became uber attacking. I think after that we felt we could mould ourselves into a fluid attacking unit, with the ability to mix it up. I think Rafa clearly wants a team that can do both, albeit neither being top standard.

The problem is though that we have lost our structure. Our defence now seems precious and on edge. Our midfield is constantly getting out battled and out fought. We have no structure or foundation to be any sort of team. Regardless of what you want to become, you need to have the ability to either out fight or defend most teams, otherwise you just wont be anything. We need to get back to that. We need to start keeping clean sheets and become more tougher, even if that costs us scoring more goals as we simply will need to rely on the talents of Gerrard and Torres getting a single goal.

Rafa's time here is being undermined because he is a manager that deals in quick turnover of players if he thinks is necessary to get the team to where he wants. At the moment, he can't do that. I can still see Rafa, if he is given the green light and new investment, selling the likes of Degen, Dossena, Voronin, but also putting up question marks against the likes of Skrtel, Lucas, Mascherano, Riera and Babel.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8392 on: October 18, 2009, 11:28:31 am »
(it's not been 210 pages of rhetoric Juan as you well know)

Never said it was mate. Maybe I worded wrong but you know what I'm getting at. As far as Rafa is concerned we've got to take a step back from Rinus Michel and total football and trying to fit where we're going as a club into that framework and judge the style of play and philosophy on it's own merits. I don't think it really stands up myself. I remember saying this a couple of months back on this thread when discussing how teams like Barcelona seemed to be coached, as a unit, with the ball and how it helps the lesser players. I don't think the same thing happens at Liverpool and I don't think we have anywhere near a clear footballing identity. Whether that idea about the game is right or wrong isn't actually relevent at present because it doesn't seem to exist. I'm not the greatest fan in the world of the whole ticky-taka stuff, but at least it's a philosophy that's adhered to. That's how the players are coached and the youngsters taught how to play. When a youngster comes in at Liverpool their individual game may be improved but their style of play is that which was coached to them at a previous club. Look at Dani Pacheco. He is still every inch the Barcelona player. He may have been coached into a better player than he was when he arrived but he still falls back on the same stuff he was obviously shown at Barcelona. He's still a kid from La Masia, not Melwood.


Quote
I'm not sure on the whole 'footballing philosophy' thing Bob mate - it'd be interesting to read your posts from the tail end of last season on that front. The problem is we're not integrated, and integration takes time. The results aren't buying that time.

It's no good reading the thoughts from the tail end of last season because we all get sucked into it every single year with Rafa. We always finish the season strongly and a sense of optimism surrounds the start of the new one. More often than not however, we end walking the result tight rope from October onwards and out of it completely by January.

The football from March onwards was the best I've ever seen from a Liverpool team but it was no different to what's happened every year with Rafa. in 05-06 we won the last 13 or 14 games in all competitions but started the new season with a draw at Sheffield United and were out of the race by the end of September next year. Last seasons form means fuck all with Rafa because it never seems to be built upon. The only time it arguably has been was last season where we got the same sort of results as we'd had from around the back-end of the 07-08 season but the performances, as usual, were fucking shocking. There was just a resilience that had developed which has now disappeared.


I'm pretty miserable at the moment but nowhere near as bad as I could be. I still think we could do something in the title race - although time is running out fast - but it is only because of how poor everyone else looks that we still have even a remote chance and I can understand completely why we're being written off. We've got the team and even the squad to compete but more than the others we're reliant on players being in form. I don't just mean your Torres and your Gerrards. I think United's strength in depth is one of the great myths that surrounds football at present, but what they do have are 2-3 similar options that they can change. Hargreaves is injured? Carrick out of form? Don't worry there's still Fletcher, Anderson and Scholes. It's all much of a muchness and apart from across the backline I don't think I'd swap a single one of their players for ours (obviously I'd like Rooney but not more than Torres or Gerrard). They've got relative quality in depth. ISame on the wings. I wouldn't really want Nani, Park, Valencia or Giggs but y'know... they can afford two or three dropping off form.

I look at our midfield by comparison and I think "Yeah, if they're playing well they're better". I think if they're fit and we've got Aquilani, Lucas and Masch all available then the depth is pretty good ('specially with Gerrard in reserve) but at the moment, with Aquilani still out and Mascherano in shocking form it looks light.

We've got more than enough quality and depth (apart from up front) to last the season and do well in both major competitions, but we're more reliant than the others on form and at the moment too many players are well out of form. Carragher, Skrtel, Mascherano, Riera and even Gerrard (although he'll obviously have his moments of just amazing ability) have had poor starts to the season. Agger, Aurelio and Aquilani have been injured at the start of the season. We can talk about strength in depth 'til the cows come home but that's 8 players who haven't been on form.

I've got no issues with a relatively small squad as long as it's performing well. I think you probably end up with a greater understanding amongst players and you see the younger ones grow quicker. Players need to perform and contribute something though. Someone like Babel was poor yesterday but in the weeks before that he's done alright. If Rafa can keep him coming off the bench and making an impact then short term that may be enough (just look at Tevez last season and then remember back to some of Babel's cameos towards the end of his first season). Players like Skrtel and in particular Mascherano need to get back in to form and quickly. I think we'll be amazed at just how much we improve if we could just get Mascherano back to 90% of his best and Aquilani could come in and play well from the off. If they could both be brilliant and strike up the best midfield in the world then fantastic, but if they're just 'good' and we start controlling games a bit more then that'll make a huge, obvious difference immediately. We need to recapture apresence in the centre of the park.


We've still got a decent chance by virtue of no one else really looking spectacular. We can't fuck about with it though. It's a chance we're very fortunate still to have IMHO and we need to take advantage right now. By all rights we should be well out of this race already and we understandably are in a lot of peoples minds. If our lads can get themselves back in form then I still think we've got as good a chance as anyone because there are obvious frailties elsewhere. It needs to be done this week though and continued throughout the season.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8393 on: October 18, 2009, 12:07:29 pm »
Quote
We've got more than enough quality and depth (apart from up front) to last the season

Think we're weaker in central defence.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8394 on: October 18, 2009, 12:21:25 pm »
When you're arguing against almost everybody else I'd level that at you.

You've got your rose tinted Lucas glasses fully on show here, just because he played better than Spearing does not mean he played well.  2 passes doesn't make a 97 minute performance a good one. If you go out looking for positives you'll find them, just like irrational Spearing fans will find positives in the way he shouts, or points for the ball, or throws himself about despite him playing a stinker you're doing the exact same with Lucas.  I'm guilty of it but never with Liverpool players, I do watch the match despite you might think with the only agenda being for Liverpool to win not for my favourite player to outperform the one next to him.  I know what it's like, whenever Zanetti or Lizazaru had a half decent game I'd proclaim them as world beaters because they were 2 of my favourite players, you go looking for the positives and ignore the negatives.

He was poor, barring probably Reina and Johnson they all were.

Take the glasses off, you clearly didn't watch properly.

Degs, listen, apologies about my post last night - it was arsey and I do respect your posts and your point of view. But I do get sick of people ignoring what he does do, like when you read 'only passes sideways' or 'can't tackle' or 'gives the ball away a lot' so, while he didn't have a great game by any means, he did plenty more than 'one half decent pass to Benayoun' which is how you described it. He played plenty more than 2 good passes too - I mentioned them because they were into the box and led directly to chances for us. It may not a good performance make (though I only ever said he played pretty well, considering the circumstances) but it's also fair to say that Alonso/Gerrard/Mash - you'd rarely get two or three balls to feet into the box leading to direct chances in any given game. Like Lucas, when they play that role most of their better stuff is further back. Of course he isn't at that level, but I maintain he did a lot better yesterday than people are crediting him with. As for Lucas glasses - of course I'm a fan of his, but I've also said when I've thought he played badly, so I'm not totally deluded ;)

Anyway, apologies again feller, it was nothing personal or anything and, like I say, I enjoy your posts.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8395 on: October 18, 2009, 12:24:22 pm »
Think we're weaker in central defence.

We've got 3 very good central defenders IMHO, but one has been injured and the other two are off form. Have to say I've been reasonably impressed with what little I've seen of the Greek so far, but nowhere near enough to judge if he is capable or not. Chelsea have Terry, Carvalho and Alex at the back, all of whom are prone to injury. Yernited have Vidic, Ferdinand and Evans. I don't think we need feel as soft as we do in that department. Ok, yernited, as elsewhere, can bring in a couple of ok players in Brown (when fit) and O'Shea... but really, are you envious of that? Skrtel and Carragher are good players, we know this. It's just a form thing again. Carragher, Skrtel and Mascherano have had shit starts to the season and Gerrard has been 'ok' at best (by his own ridiculously high standards). Right down the centre of the team there have been players who haven't performed who we all know can perform to a very high level. It's not a Lucas or an Aquilani who have yet to show they can do it in a red shirt, it's players who have done but just aren't at the moment.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8396 on: October 18, 2009, 12:24:54 pm »
Think we're weaker in central defence.

Much weaker if you consider the lack of form of Carragher and Skrtel compared to this time last season. Sami's experience with the squad and the lack of Alonso's organisation has left us very weak.

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8397 on: October 18, 2009, 12:27:18 pm »
Much weaker if you consider the lack of form of Carragher and Skrtel compared to this time last season. Sami's experience with the squad and the lack of Alonso's organisation has left us very weak.

Alonso didn't organise. Neither does Reina. The only person who can possibly organise and talk at the back is Carragher. He's so good at it that he actually hjas time to practice his technique as ventriloquist and throw his voice so it looks like the talking is coming from Reina, or Alonso, but really it's all Carragher. That's why he can never be dropped. Ever. Not even when he's dead. He's a communicator.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8398 on: October 18, 2009, 12:29:34 pm »
I would have to agree with this. I had been hoping responsibility would raise him, but it has not. The fact he was outstanding for Brazil may be that mentally he relaxed while surrounded by that amount of talent and experience. You see the same here; he's tangibly much happier playing next to Stevie. Enjoyed your post JL - or let us say, plenty of food for thought. Off to put on a Leonard Cohen album...
Or could it also be partly that the Brazil team also trusts and understands him? Will pass to him, and totally gets the whole give and go principle that his game is largely based on?

For me he's often looked very good in games, like Arsenal next to Plessis, when senior players have been totally absent. Same on his debut against Everton, Chelsea in the Carling Cup - provided there's been a decent enough team around him or a lower quality of opposition. He plays pretty well with Gerrard but people don't look for Lucas when Gerrard is on the pitch - and when they partner up in midfield Lucas is playing a more defensive role.

Definitely it's partly Lucas, but I'm convinced it's also partly an issue with our team on the whole - it's like on paper we know we're supposed to be a pass and move team but on the pitch there's very few who won't pass the responsibility onto the likes of Gerrard. Lucas is certainly guilty of this, but I'd be stressing it a lot more if I'd seen a game where I honestly thought he's getting the ball and the 'go' part of the give and goes as much as he should. It's difficult to find that extra confidence when his good forward runs are so often ignored, and when Mascherano, for whatever reasons, doesn't really give him the opportunity to be the more creative partner in that pairing - someone posted up on the Tomkins Times stats that Mash, on average, passed 4 times to Alonso for every 1 pass he gives to Lucas, and that there is a clear imbalance in terms of how often Mash passes to Lucas compared with Lucas passing to Mash. It's not just Lucas is the problem, and I think it says just as much about our problems as a team that he's able to play his first brazil game in ages and come through it with flying colours.
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Re: The Level 3 thread
« Reply #8399 on: October 18, 2009, 12:35:11 pm »
Alonso didn't organise. Neither does Reina. The only person who can possibly organise and talk at the back is Carragher. He's so good at it that he actually hjas time to practice his technique as ventriloquist and throw his voice so it looks like the talking is coming from Reina, or Alonso, but really it's all Carragher. That's why he can never be dropped. Ever. Not even when he's dead. He's a communicator.

Leaders isn't it. A lack of them. Reina is trying his best and even Carragher seems less vocal, simply because he doesn't seem to know what is going on and is worried about his own form.

Mascherano hasn't picked up the mantle either and Lucas reacts to everything with that awkward grin, kinda like the one Chandler makes in Friends when he knows a picture is going to be taken.

Insua and Johnson are relatively quiet and Skrtel is probably humming along to some death metal.

They now go back to the dressing room and there isn't the experience that there was there before. Its all looking very weak.

I don't really know what we can do to turn it around. Do we look to become more defensive until the midfield and backline become more confident and are less exposed? Can the likes of Johnson and Insua be more defensive?

Could we even bring in Didi Hamman, just to bulk up the numbers and bring some experience back into the squad?