Topic: This Would Be Better Design

[wz4jc3]

This just makes me laugh! How many balls would we lose if Rob Jones made a shooting comeback? 

[PhilV]

Same thread, couple of pages ago ...

different stadium mate the Lucas Oil is for the Colts and is the old school looking one with brick facade, the Cardinals stadium is ultra modern looking with retractable roof and retractable pitch

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

different stadium mate the Lucas Oil is for the Colts and is the old school looking one with brick facade, the Cardinals stadium is ultra modern looking with retractable roof and retractable pitch

Look closer ... The Lucas Oil Stadium does not have a brick facade, but does have retractable roof ... Yes, it has been built in retro style, but it is a brand new stadium (opened in August 2008) ...

[Alan_X]

I keep banging the same old drum but an NFL stadium is a different animal to a football ground.  Yes they both have grandstands but the similarities are fairly superficial. The nature of the game and especially it's duration are nothing like a ninety minute match with fifteen minute half time interval. If you want an NFL stadium with a massive Kop that's exactly what the HKS design is.

And that's why it's completely wrong.

The concourses are too big and there are "pitch overlooks" which make sense if you're at an NFL game lasting a few hours and you want to get up during the game and wander out to get a hot dog.

Why just look at NFL stadiums? How about one side like Kempton Park grandstand, the other like the Moubd stand at Lords , the away end like Wimbledon Centre Court ... Oh and a big fuck off Kop.

The best examples for great football grounds... are great football grounds. The Westfalenstadion, San Siro, Camp Nou, a little ground called Anfield maybe?

[SamiSamiHyypia]

I keep banging the same old drum but an NFL stadium is a different animal to a football ground.  Yes they both have grandstands but the similarities are fairly superficial. The nature of the game and especially it's duration are nothing like a ninety minute match with fifteen minute half time interval. If you want an NFL stadium with a massive Kop that's exactly what the HKS design is.

And that's why it's completely wrong.

The concourses are too big and there are "pitch overlooks" which make sense if you're at an NFL game lasting a few hours and you want to get up during the game and wander out to get a hot dog.

Why just look at NFL stadiums? How about one side like Kempton Park grandstand, the other like the Moubd stand at Lords , the away end like Wimbledon Centre Court ... Oh and a big fuck off Kop.

The best examples for great football grounds... are great football grounds. The Westfalenstadion, San Siro, Camp Nou, a little ground called Anfield maybe?

Keep banging the drum Alan, you're talking a lot of sense.

Luckily I think NESV do understand that and are likely to take it into consideration.

When I first saw the HKS designs I was so relieved they weren't for a standard dome that I didn't question them in detail

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

I keep banging the same old drum but an NFL stadium is a different animal to a football ground.  Yes they both have grandstands but the similarities are fairly superficial. The nature of the game and especially it's duration are nothing like a ninety minute match with fifteen minute half time interval. If you want an NFL stadium with a massive Kop that's exactly what the HKS design is.

And that's why it's completely wrong.

The concourses are too big and there are "pitch overlooks" which make sense if you're at an NFL game lasting a few hours and you want to get up during the game and wander out to get a hot dog.

Why just look at NFL stadiums? How about one side like Kempton Park grandstand, the other like the Moubd stand at Lords , the away end like Wimbledon Centre Court ... Oh and a big fuck off Kop.

The best examples for great football grounds... are great football grounds. The Westfalenstadion, San Siro, Camp Nou, a little ground called Anfield maybe?

I am aware of the differences between the classic football stadiums and the American football stadiums, Alan ... Still, there are some interesting things that could be learned from the American football stadiums, especially in the era of commercialization of the game ... I know that this sounds like blasphemy, but we are inevitably moving in that direction ...

[Alan_X]

I am aware of the differences between the classic football stadiums and the American football stadiums, Alan ... Still, there are some interesting things that could be learned from the American football stadiums, especially in the era of commercialization of the game ... I know that this sounds like blasphemy, but we are inevitably moving in that direction ...

I disagree. There are many ways to improve the income from each game but my point is that the game and the spectator expectations are radically different. I'm doing a review of the HKS plans that MikeD posted a while back - and the HKS ground is a fantastic NFL stadium. It's not a football ground. The people who designed it have no understanding of what it's like to be a regular or occasional match-goer with fifteen minutes in the interval to have a slash and by a pint and some food. There are acres of concourses with pitch overviews (why?) but not enough stairs in the right place or kiosks - especially behind the Kop.

I don't like the Emirates as a ground to watch the game but the food kiosks and and bars are excellent. You go through the turnstiles and there are bogs, food and beer right in front of you.

The time to see how an NFL stadium maximises revenue will be when FIFA introduces timeouts, splits the game into 4 quarters and have a half-time show and stretch a game out for three and a half hours. Then we can have seats sized for the clinically obese, cup-holders in every armrest and free foam fingers with your tickets for the Kop "Experience".

Bottom line in a successful business is to understand your market, your customer, or in our case, the supporters who make the club what it is.

[LiamG]

I don't like the Emirates as a ground to watch the game but the food kiosks and and bars are excellent. You go through the turnstiles and there are bogs, food and beer right in front of you.

Agree with that, Wembley is the best example of this! Outstanding ground

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

I disagree. There are many ways to improve the income from each game but my point is that the game and the spectator expectations are radically different. I'm doing a review of the HKS plans that MikeD posted a while back - and the HKS ground is a fantastic NFL stadium. It's not a football ground. The people who designed it have no understanding of what it's like to be a regular or occasional match-goer with fifteen minutes in the interval to have a slash and by a pint and some food. There are acres of concourses with pitch overviews (why?) but not enough stairs in the right place or kiosks - especially behind the Kop.

I don't like the Emirates as a ground to watch the game but the food kiosks and and bars are excellent. You go through the turnstiles and there are bogs, food and beer right in front of you.

The time to see how an NFL stadium maximises revenue will be when FIFA introduces timeouts, splits the game into 4 quarters and have a half-time show and stretch a game out for three and a half hours. Then we can have seats sized for the clinically obese, cup-holders in every armrest and free foam fingers with your tickets for the Kop "Experience".

Bottom line in a successful business is to understand your market, your customer, or in our case, the supporters who make the club what it is.

You have probably noticed that I am very much in favor of using the first AFL plans ... Do you think that these plans, with some improvements like a single-tiered Kop and better corporate hospitality, could be the solution for our new ground ?

[LiamG]

I think they could!

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

I am pretty impressed by the design of the new Palmeiras stadium ...



I think that it would be very interesting to incorporate a huge Kop into such a shape ...

[The Lord Admiral]

I keep banging the same old drum but an NFL stadium is a different animal to a football ground.  Yes they both have grandstands but the similarities are fairly superficial. The nature of the game and especially it's duration are nothing like a ninety minute match with fifteen minute half time interval. If you want an NFL stadium with a massive Kop that's exactly what the HKS design is.

And that's why it's completely wrong.

The concourses are too big and there are "pitch overlooks" which make sense if you're at an NFL game lasting a few hours and you want to get up during the game and wander out to get a hot dog.

Why just look at NFL stadiums? How about one side like Kempton Park grandstand, the other like the Moubd stand at Lords , the away end like Wimbledon Centre Court ... Oh and a big fuck off Kop.

The best examples for great football grounds... are great football grounds. The Westfalenstadion, San Siro, Camp Nou, a little ground called Anfield maybe?

That's an interesting point re the concourses. But after reflecting, if you can get supporters in a couple of hours before, and then put on stuff for them after, there's a huge take to be had on food, entertainment, drinks. You can make it a mini city. That's essentially what US teams do and it means they have extra revenue generators.

The old days on the Kop people were there hours in advance to meet up with mates, watch kids teams, have a sing song etc. There's no reason why that can't happen again, all at the ground.

I don't think HKS were far off to be honest, it's a great ground, it's basically a huge new version of Anfield if you look and the stands without the shell. I have real problems with the corners not being filled in at the Kop end, but other than that it's a belter.

[Peter McGurk]

That's an interesting point re the concourses. But after reflecting, if you can get supporters in a couple of hours before, and then put on stuff for them after, there's a huge take to be had on food, entertainment, drinks. You can make it a mini city. That's essentially what US teams do and it means they have extra revenue generators.

The old days on the Kop people were there hours in advance to meet up with mates, watch kids teams, have a sing song etc. There's no reason why that can't happen again, all at the ground.

I don't think HKS were far off to be honest, it's a great ground, it's basically a huge new version of Anfield if you look and the stands without the shell. I have real problems with the corners not being filled in at the Kop end, but other than that it's a belter.

Not filling in the corners, making the stadium really big and being really generous with space and a massive roof - it’s like watching football in a vast and airy barn (not unlike the Emirates). The power of Anfield is it’s focus, intensity and closeness. Everyone watches every second, rather sitting back looking for their burger and coke with arm rests. It’s armchair footee, not seat of the pants stuff. We want teams to feel the heat.

By all means get people in early and encourage them to leave late. Some people would like that and some prefer the pub (and begrudge stadium prices) and that’s fine but for those on a ‘special day’ it would be a whole day out that contributes to the club.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Is it a football or tennis ground we're after?

OK, if you prefer it in red ...

[jooneyisdagod]

Is it a football or tennis ground we're after?

Silence please.  Thank you. 

Don't like the look of that "tennis" stadium at all. 

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Something like this? Maybe the horizontal seating section (as seen in the pic) can be made a little bigger.

http://www.privilegedclub.com/41367-most-expensive-nfl-football-stadium-2/

[JWAlonso]

Something like this? Maybe the horizontal seating section (as seen in the pic) can be made a little bigger.

http://www.privilegedclub.com/41367-most-expensive-nfl-football-stadium-2/

How will that hold 80,000 people then 100,000 people?

[Peter McGurk]

How will that hold 80,000 people then 100,000 people?

Maybe there's a clue in the title.

[RJH]

Something like this? Maybe the horizontal seating section (as seen in the pic) can be made a little bigger.

http://www.privilegedclub.com/41367-most-expensive-nfl-football-stadium-2/

I'm confused by that article.

It's from October, and seems to be talking about the new Dallas Cowboys stadium. But it's written as if it's going to be built in the near future, when that stadium actually opened over a year before that article was written.

Also, that picture is completely unconnected to the article. Even if I didn't know that it looks nothing like the Cowboys Stadium, it looks far too small to ever hold 100,000, and it is also fairly obviously a football stadium, not an NFL stadium.


A little bit of research found that the picture used seems to be an early design of Brighton's Falmer Stadium, which is going to have a capacity of ~25,000. 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7732090.stm
http://www.seagulls.co.uk/javaImages/db/41/0,,10433~8995291,00.jpg

[scouse29]

OK, if you prefer it in red ...

Really like the look of this. The noise from the Kop filtering through the rest of the ground

[soxfan]

I hope someone familiar with North American as well as European stadium design can answer this. I've always been curious...

In America, we have some indoor stadiums as well as retractable roof stadiums. But most only have limited roofs over the stands. Many NFL stadiums do not have roofing at all. Yet, football stadiums in Europe tend to have a rectangular roof that extends quite a bit over the stands and part of the pitch. Does anyone know why there is such a difference in design? If anything, you'd think the opposite situation would be true -- baseball and NFL players look up into the sky far more often than football players, so you'd think they would benefit more from sun-shading designs than footballers.

Re: LFC's future, how much of a roof would you like to ideally see over our pitch? Personally, in order to make it as intimidating as possible, I'd prefer a roof that can trap as much supporter noise as possible. I hope that is a major consideration in the design. Make it as loud as possible. 

Anfield


Gillette Stadium


Fenway Park

[LiamG]

Would like the roof as low as possible to keep the noise in but without restricting views from the tops of tiers!

[Ken-Obi]

Does anyone know why there is such a difference in design? If anything, you'd think the opposite situation would be true -- baseball and NFL players look up into the sky far more often than football players, so you'd think they would benefit more from sun-shading designs than footballers.

Re: LFC's future, how much of a roof would you like to ideally see over our pitch? Personally, in order to make it as intimidating as possible, I'd prefer a roof that can trap as much supporter noise as possible. I hope that is a major consideration in the design. Make it as loud as possible. 

You might have just answered your own question?

[soxfan]

You might have just answered your own question?

No, because NFL and baseball teams have every desire to have loud, intimidating stadiums too. I wonder if it is just a cultural difference -- one continent started building stadiums one way, and another continent went another way? Maybe it's that simple and I'm overthinking it? 

[Mal]

No, because NFL and baseball teams have every desire to have loud, intimidating stadiums too. I wonder if it is just a cultural difference -- one continent started building stadiums one way, and another continent went another way? Maybe it's that simple and I'm overthinking it? 

Footy fans are nesh. We need protecting from the cold & the rain...

[redprodigal]

In America, we have some indoor stadiums as well as retractable roof stadiums. But most only have limited roofs over the stands. Many NFL stadiums do not have roofing at all. Yet, football stadiums in Europe tend to have a rectangular roof that extends quite a bit over the stands and part of the pitch. Does anyone know why there is such a difference in design? If anything, you'd think the opposite situation would be true -- baseball and NFL players look up into the sky far more often than football players, so you'd think they would benefit more from sun-shading designs than footballers.

I think it may have something to do with the fact we don't like being pelted with rain and having minus 20 degree winds coming full force at us in the months from November to March 

[Peter McGurk]

Weather, Comfort and Safety

Although I suspect not by design, the first kop roof was pretty good at funneling sound onto the pitch because it was double pitched with the ridge towards the back and ran continuously around the 'wings'. So it was high at the back and low at the front, like a sound box it had a large volume but a (relatively) small area for the sound to get out.

[soxfan]

I think it may have something to do with the fact we don't like being pelted with rain and having minus 20 degree winds coming full force at us in the months from November to March 

So you're saying we Americans are crazy then?  Or stupid?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDUa4WgXkOw&feature=related

[soxfan]

Weather, Comfort and Safety

Although I suspect not by design, the first kop roof was pretty good at funneling sound onto the pitch because it was double pitched with the ridge towards the back and ran continuously around the 'wings'. So it was high at the back and low at the front, like a sound box it had a large volume but a (relatively) small area for the sound to get out.

Peter, I just want to thank you for your comments in these stadium threads. I'm learning a lot about Anfield and the potential future changes for LFC.  Your detailed explanations are much appreciated.

[red_til_i_die]

So you're saying we Americans are crazy then?  Or stupid?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDUa4WgXkOw&feature=related

ha ha yep i'd say you'd hev to be a little crazy to sit in that for the length of an NFL game

[Kop4]

Weather, Comfort and Safety

Although I suspect not by design, the first kop roof was pretty good at funneling sound onto the pitch because it was double pitched with the ridge towards the back and ran continuously around the 'wings'. So it was high at the back and low at the front, like a sound box it had a large volume but a (relatively) small area for the sound to get out.

Re: LFC's future, how much of a roof would you like to ideally see over our pitch? Personally, in order to make it as intimidating as possible, I'd prefer a roof that can trap as much supporter noise as possible. I hope that is a major consideration in the design. Make it as loud as possible. 

My thoughts entirely.  The old Kop was ideal for focussing the sound.  High rooves just result in a hollow echoing sound.


On a different note, what is the minimum seating size for seats?  I would pack them as tightly as possible on the Kop to increase capacity.

[TepidT2O]

Weather, Comfort and Safety

Although I suspect not by design, the first kop roof was pretty good at funneling sound onto the pitch because it was double pitched with the ridge towards the back and ran continuously around the 'wings'. So it was high at the back and low at the front, like a sound box it had a large volume but a (relatively) small area for the sound to get out.

The HKS stadium design attempts to capture the volume from the kop too.

I'm not sure redeveloping anfield will be something the planners would accept to be honest

[Michaelanscombe]

Something like this? Maybe the horizontal seating section (as seen in the pic) can be made a little bigger.

http://www.privilegedclub.com/41367-most-expensive-nfl-football-stadium-2/

This is Brightons new stadium. It's about a mile from me.  It looks good but it's certainly not the sort of stadium i would want liverpool to be playing in.  At best a championship standard. One thing it does have though which i beleive is unique in this country is the roof on the away end changes colour to suit the away teams colours.

[JACKO_LFC]

I am in mixed opinions of the stadium. The teams in the premier league with big stadiums e.g man city, arsenal, m** *****d, despite them all being good stadiums, whats the atmosphere like? TERRIBLE! I just hope our unique atmosphere wouldn't go with us switching new stadium!

[CraigDS]

The problem for the other clubs is money cannot buy fans like ours, and trust me Chelsea have tried.

Ours are here to stay and will do so no matter what stadium we are in.

[redprodigal]

So you're saying we Americans are crazy then?  Or stupid?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDUa4WgXkOw&feature=related

 

But if you look at that you will see that the stadium is half empty. That is what we'd have if we had no roof in the winter and you can't survive with half empty stadiums.

[The Manhattan Project]

I like that red stadium.

I would also recommend some Liverbird gargoyles, like the Chrysler Building's eagles.

[Alan_X]

The HKS stadium design attempts to capture the volume from the kop too.

It says it does but I don't think it would.

[81a]

I like that red stadium.

I would also recommend some Liverbird gargoyles, like the Chrysler Building's eagles.

On top of 4 old fashioned pylon style floodlights with their wings at full stretch to provide cover for the corners.

[LiamG]

It says it does but I don't think it would.

It wouldnt sound right i dont think