Topic: All this talk of megamillionbucks strikers...

[hooded claw]

Begs the question... given his track record of signing strikers thus far- would you actually trust Benitez to spend £15-£20 million of whatever budget he ends up with? Honestly?

[StormyDog]

Yes.

[corbyRed]

Yes.

agree.

is there any read for another Rafa-bashing thread?

[the red rebel]

controversial stagger lee, hate to say it if we get a bad start these threads will be increasing no doubt about that.

[JIMMYMOL]

 CONCERNS OVER LACK OF ACTION IN TRANSFER MARKET

[Johnnyboy1973]

Good question.

There is nothing to suggest from his previous excursions into the transfer market that we should.

Never bought a big name in his life and his transfer record is ok.

But, I think we have to back him. If not, then sack him. Would another manager make better use of the money? Fuck knows.

Think we have to ride with it Jon.

But, I hope to fuck we can clear this question up this Summer.

His tactical play is another matter that needs to be addressed though.

[hooded claw]

controversial stagger lee, hate to say it if we get a bad start these threads will be increasing no doubt about that.

Probably, but it does bother me. It's a genuine question, so apologies to the RTS Brigade.

[Johnnyboy1973]

agree.

is there any read for another Rafa-bashing thread?

Exactly.

IN RAFA WE TRUST!

[Emo Phillips]

Begs the question... given his track record of signing strikers thus far- would you actually trust Benitez to spend £15-£20 million of whatever budget he ends up with? Honestly?

Of course.

I don't see the problem with Benitez's track record regarding strikers - he's still only paid a top price of £10m for one, one-third of what United spent on Rooney, while Chelsea's front two cost £25m and £30m.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Begs the question... given his track record of signing strikers thus far- would you actually trust Benitez to spend £15-£20 million of whatever budget he ends up with? Honestly?

I don't know what you mean by his track record so far, Kuyt has had a good first season and Crouch has a 1 in 2 finishing rate, I'd say he's done OK so far.  We don't know what Voronin is going to be like in the red shirt to be honest.

I just think we need a steadier run for our strikers instead of so much rotation, I think Crouch should start every match this season with either an attacking midfielder or a second striker playing of him high up and see what damage he causes, I don't think anyone would question his buys come seasons end.

[hooded claw]

I don't know what you mean by his track record so far, Kuyt has had a good first season and Crouch has a 1 in 2 finishing rate, I'd say he's done OK so far.  We don't know what Voronin is going to be like in the red shirt to be honest.

Morientes? Bellamy?

[the red rebel]

to be fair bellamy isnt a certain failure yet. an if he gets his money back if he goes which we will and more, no harm done.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Name me one person (besides Ballague) who wasn't gushing like a school girl when we signed Morientes?

Cisse (not his fault) Baros (not his fault) Bellamy, just scored 17 goals the previous season, Crouch (no complaints), Kuyt (first season, decent return no complaints), Robert Bernard Fowler (glad he came back to say his last goodbyes)

So I can't for the life of me see where Benitez is supposed to have failed when it comes to forwards. Shevchenko cost 23.5mil more than Morientes and he has been as much if not less of a success than Morientes. If someone can point out to me this terrible track record i'd be very grateful

[hooded claw]

Name me one person (besides Ballague) who wasn't gushing like a school girl when we signed Morientes?

Cisse (not his fault) Baros (not his fault) Bellamy, just scored 17 goals the previous season, Crouch (no complaints), Kuyt (first season, decent return no complaints), Robert Bernard Fowler (glad he came back to say his last goodbyes)

So I can't for the life of me see where Benitez is supposed to have failed when it comes to forwards. Shevchenko cost 23.5mil more than Morientes and he has been as much if not less of a success than Morientes. If someone can point out to me this terrible track record i'd be very grateful

How many goals did we score?

And I don't accept thie tired old 'ooooh, but Chelsea and Man United spend more than us' line either. Berbatov and Mccarthy were available and succeeded in the Premiership.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Morientes? Bellamy?

Fair enough, but for 12 Million for both you can hardly complain

[Bosshog]

Stagger....if you dont trust Benitez then whats the point in him being our manager.

who else will choose the forwards then?

[Emo Phillips]

Crouch and Kuyt got 32 goals last season - not bad for a £16m partnership.

Bellamy was a gamble that didn't pay off, but could see us make a profit. Morientes was a failure, but those two aside, he's done well with the money he's spent.

I mean, Wenger bought Henry and Anelka, but also Wiltord for £13m and Reyes for £17m, followed by swapping the latter for Baptista.

Chelsea "wasted" £30m on Shevchenko, and while Mourinho signed Drogba, he also bought Kezman. And Drogba was seen as a 'flop' in his first two seasons in terms of goal return.

Ferguson bought Alan Smith and Diego Forlan, whose scoring rates at Old Trafford make Crouch look like Ian Rush.

And so on.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

How many goals did we score?

And I don't accept thie tired old 'ooooh, but Chelsea and Man United spend more than us' line either. Berbatov and Mccarthy were available and succeeded in the Premiership.

Both Berbatov and McCarthy have just finished their 1st season, who says their second seasons are going to be to the same standard?

[Emo Phillips]

And I don't accept thie tired old 'ooooh, but Chelsea and Man United spend more than us' line either. Berbatov and Mccarthy were available and succeeded in the Premiership.

Berbatov scored ONE more league goal than Kuyt. In more starts. McCarthy took penalties.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Berbatov scored ONE more league goal than Kuyt. In more starts. McCarthy took penalties.

Fuck all that. They look better players. Simple as that for me. More awareness, better touches, greater link up ability.

Dont get me wrong, Kuyt plays in midfield and Crouch plays on the bench - so this will always inhibit them, but McCarthy and Berbatov look better players.

[kingmonkey007]

Berbatov scored ONE more league goal than Kuyt. In more starts. McCarthy took penalties.

I think you may find Kuyt and Berbatov scored the same (12 goals), but I maybe wrong, but I think I'm spot on!.

[hooded claw]

Fair enough, but for 12 Million for both you can hardly complain

OK DH. You say that, then what happens if he spends that much and more on one striker who underperforms? That's kind of the whole question.

[the red rebel]

not kuyts biggest fan but i doubt youd see berbatov still running his socks off in extra time after an energy sapping c/l semi as he did v chelsea.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

OK DH. You say that, then what happens if he spends that much and more on one striker who underperforms? That's kind of the whole question.

Well the kind of players Rafa is supposed to have on his shopping list are the likes of Tevez (now Bent's gone to West Ham I can deffo see him leaving), Eto'o and Villa (who he's had an interest in since he was at Valencia) I don't think there is any doubt that Rafa knows a good player, I really don't see what the budget has to do with anything, a good player is a good player no matter what the cost.

[Emo Phillips]

Fuck all that. They look better players. Simple as that for me. More awareness, better touches, greater link up ability.

Dont get me wrong, Kuyt plays in midfield and Crouch plays on the bench - so this will always inhibit them, but McCarthy and Berbatov look better players.

Except Kuyt played virtually every game in getting to the Champions League final and worked his bollocks off for the team. Without which, who the fuck knows? While Berbatov strutted about for Spurs who, er, did fuck all.

Berbatov looks much more "gifted" than Kuyt, of course, but Kuyt a) played deeper, b) worked harder and c) helped Liverpool beat some of Europe's top teams.

I'm not saying Benitez has an amazing record with strikers, but he's never had the money to shop at the top end. Could it be a gamble? Of course. But then everyone expected Shevchenko to be the bollocks, and he was just bollocks.

When Rafa has spent more than a few million on a player they've tended to be very good value for money.

[the red rebel]

gary t get back to red tissue.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Berbatov scored ONE more league goal than Kuyt. In more starts. McCarthy took penalties.

Exactly, Berbatov had 14 matches (14 FUCKING MATCHES!) worth of game time more than Crouch and managed to only score 3 more goals (league)

[Johnnyboy1973]

Except Kuyt played virtually every game in getting to the Champions League final and worked his bollocks off for the team. Without which, who the fuck knows? While Berbatov strutted about for Spurs who, er, did fuck all.

Berbatov looks much more "gifted" than Kuyt, of course, but Kuyt a) played deeper, b) worked harder and c) helped Liverpool beat some of Europe's top teams.

I'm not saying Benitez has an amazing record with strikers, but he's never had the money to shop at the top end. Could it be a gamble? Of course. But then everyone expected Shevchenko to be the bollocks, and he was just bollocks.

When Rafa has spent more than a few million on a player they've tended to be very good value for money.

Think that is a bit unfair on Berbatov. Dont think he is a strutter. Think he is here to win and you are not taking into account losing King for most of the season and selling their playmaker.
Avoiding injuries they will be stronger next season.

As you rightly say, he has never shopped at the high end of the market so only time will tell.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

OK DH. You say that, then what happens if he spends that much and more on one striker who underperforms? That's kind of the whole question.

But that's the risk every manager takes wether it's Benitez, Mourinho or Whiskey nose. But to suggest his record is poor when in contrast to others it's on par, is a bit harsh.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

As you rightly say, he has never shopped at the high end of the market so only time will tell.

does it really matter though, Rafa was interested in Villa before he became a £25 mil rated striker, just cos his value increases doesn't mean he's a better player, it just means people have realised how good he is.

[Johnnyboy1973]

does it really matter though, Rafa was interested in Villa before he became a £25 mil rated striker, just cos his value increases doesn't mean he's a better player, it just means people have realised how good he is.

Well, yeah it does as your scope for getting it wrong can be catastrophic.

Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt, Alonso - in fact everyone he has bought always had the out of, "well, he was a bit shit, but hey, he only cost us this much."

Once you go high end that excuse is no longer available to you.

Instead it turns into, "Well, he was a bit shit and cost twenty five million but I got it wrong."

[Raul!]

Valid question Jon, but I don't think you can separate a manager's general ability to spot a good player (Aonso, Agger, Mascherano and arguably Garcia) and his ability to pick a top striker.  Rafa has picked a few crackers for us and on the other hand, there is a massive dearth of top strikers around and the days of the 30 a season striker have all but gone in England.

I would agree with Johnnyboy that we need to see slightly more attacking tactics and there is no reason that if we do that, the Kuyts and Crouches of the world (not to speak of the yet unrealised Eto'os and Torresses) can't get 20 a piece or at least 35 between the top two strikers.

As for the rest of it, we can only say Inshallah...

[Disintegration]

Fuck all that. They look better players. Simple as that for me. More awareness, better touches, greater link up ability.

Dont get me wrong, Kuyt plays in midfield and Crouch plays on the bench - so this will always inhibit them, but McCarthy and Berbatov look better players.

So why didn't Ferguson sign one of them instead of Saha a couple of years ago? Why didn't Mourinho swoop for McCarthy instead of spending 30m on Shevchenko? Indeed, why didn't Ferguson opt for £2.5m McCarthy when all he had in reserve was 7m flop (7 goals in 67 games) Alan Smith?

It's clear to me that a lot of people don't understand this particular aspect of football particularly well. I'm not going to single anyone out, and it's nothing personal but if a manager has more to spend on individual players, there's a greater chance of said player being successful. For instance, Fernando Morientes was a far bigger success than Alan Smith, despite costing less (12 goals in 61 games) - He's one often held up as Benitez' biggest flop, but he cost 6.5m - hardly megabucks.

Benitez hasn't signed a Van Nistlerooy because he hasn't had ninteen million pound sterling to spend on such a player. It's not rocket science - It's simple fact. Jose Mourinho & Alex Ferguson sign as many - perhaps more - failures as anyone else, but they are able to lavish extraordinary amounts of money on players of the highest quality, masking that truth.

[Johnnyboy1973]

So why didn't Ferguson sign one of them instead of Saha a couple of years ago? Why didn't Mourinho swoop for McCarthy instead of spending 30m on Shevchenko? Indeed, why didn't Ferguson opt for £2.5m McCarthy when all he had in reserve was 7m flop (7 goals in 67 games) Alan Smith?

Sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with McCarthy and Berbatov looking better players than Crouch and Kuyt.

I did not say they looked better players than Rooney, Saha, Drogba and Shevchenko so I fail to see the relevance.

[Kennys from heaven]

Morientes? Bellamy?

Morientes is quality, of that there is no doubt, but he could not adapt to the Premiership. Too advanced in age and too used to playing a certain way, but he was and still is a class act. it just didn't work out.
Bellamy is a player that is very effective when deployed correctly and IMHO still has a use at Anfield, although he will probably be off. I like the lad and like it or hate it, he's got that nasty edge to his game that makes him different to what we have.

one thing is though and it was nailed elsewhere in the post is the fact that the strikers need a run in the side. it's the most confidence driven position on the pitch and if you're scoring, you should stay in the side, simple as. Mind you though, the premiership has such a diversity of sides that (for instance) we could play Crouchie and Kuyt and they'd be effective against Utd, Arsenal, etc, but would struggle against more physical sides such as Sheff Utd, Bolton, etc, which is where Bellamy would come into his own.

It's horses for courses I suppose and one of the justifications for Rafa changing the side in the way that he does. (No game is the same and no opposition is the same)

I've rapidly come to the conclusion that you can no longer have the attitude that you should only worry about your own side and let them worry about you instead for this very reason.

[Disintegration]

Sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with McCarthy and Berbatov looking better players than Crouch and Kuyt.

I did not say they looked better players than Rooney, Saha, Drogba and Shevchenko so I fail to see the relevance.

But the point is, the aforementioned managers had the money to purchase such players. When you look at who they've signed for similar amounts to Rafa, they don't compare particularly favourably.

I don't think Berbatov is necessarily better than Kuyt. Similar scoring records, but really - they're very different. Berbatov possess extra class on the ball and needs less chances to score than Dirk, but I think Kuyt's bluster could be perfect if he received the correct partner.

Crouch and McCarthy, perhaps, but the scoring discrepency is not as big as it's made out to be - 18 in 47 for Crouch, 24 in 50 for McCarthy. In the league, Crouch started 19 games and was used as a sub in 13 - McCarthy started 36 and that's that. Crouch also has a better conversion rate from his shots (62.5% to 58.7%) so while you could question the manager's utilisation of the player, I don't think his quality is really in doubt.

[rab2606]

I say give him the money and let him try,

he cant be any worse than the previous manager

[Art Vandelay]

There's only one way to find out for sure....

[Steele_uk]

Sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with McCarthy and Berbatov looking better players than Crouch and Kuyt.

I did not say they looked better players than Rooney, Saha, Drogba and Shevchenko so I fail to see the relevance.

What the fuck is this 'looked a better player bollocks?'

How about at the end of a season, a striker scored feck all goals, but looked good?

[Johnnyboy1973]

What the fuck is this 'looked a better player bollocks?'

How about at the end of a season, a striker scored feck all goals, but looked good?

Well if he scored feck all it is unlikely he looked good.

Maybe, I have misled you, I mean, looks good on the ball as oppossed to looks good in the mirror.