Author Topic: Fringe Players & the reserves...  (Read 3407 times)

Offline pauldonnelly16

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Fringe Players & the reserves...
« on: January 30, 2009, 10:43:56 am »

Been thinking about how a lot of our more established named fringe players, when given the chance to play, are usually more of a liability and don't offer much to the team when they play. A lot of the time they look completely off the pace and as though they don't know what they're doing a lot of the time. Then i realised that a lot of these players don't really get that much game time and so perhaps that's why they always look so far off the pace and struggle to make an impact when they do play? Players such as Dossena, Benayoun, Babel, Lucas & Keane, can go for weeks not playing any competetive football sat on the bench, or maybe get the odd few minutes here and there as a sub. And then all of a sudden they're thrown into a competitive game one week and are completely off the pace and struggle to make any impact, and then either make mistakes which costs us games (Lucas the other night for the penalty, Benayoun against Everton giving away the free-kick), or drift by until they're hauled off for someone else (Keane every game!).

Surely these fringe players would be much better off getting 90 minutes for the reserves under their belt in mid week so they can build up a bit of real match practice? As an example, Robbie Keane at the moment couldn't hit a barn door the way he's playing - so get him in the reserves, get him scoring and get his confidence in himself up again, and then maybe when he comes on as a sub with 20 mins to go, he could maybe grab a goal and build his confidence from there and actually warrant a place in the starting 11 the next game. Ryan Babel is another who would surely benefit from this too? Being able to get a full 90 mins under his belt regularly, to get into his rhythm and start living up to the potential we know he's got.

The only downside to sticking these players in the ressies, is that a few of the kids wouldn't get a game. But a lot of these kids are never going to make it at this club anyways, so the first team should take priority and the fringe players should be in there getting match practice so that when they do step up for a game, they can make the proper impact expected of them.

A couple of players who I think has shown that this method works are Nabil El Zahr and Emilano Insua. Both regulars in the reserves, and when they are called on for first team duties always seems to slot in nicely and make a positive impact because they've had regular games and their confidence and match fitness is up. Think back over this season about the times El Zahr or Insua has been brought on or started, and I think you'll agree that 9 times out 10 they've contributed to good effect. Can you say the same for the likes of Babel, Lucas, Benayoun and co??

I really do believe that the reserve team isn't being used to it's full potential to get the most out of it for our first team - anyone else agree??
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 10:56:17 am by pauldonnelly16 »

Offline Martyn.

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 10:58:10 am »
I agree, and it would have happened in the "old days".

The problem is, if Robbie started in the reserves, everyone would moan like a bitch.
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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 11:01:28 am »
I think Rafa already complained that there are not enough reserve games in the season. Thats why he was suggesting having B teams like they do in spain.
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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 11:04:18 am »
Never likely to happen and I think in fairness most of the other top teams do not play fringe first teamers in their reserves. I think the perception is that the gulf in standard is massive and no real benefit is had by playing in the reserves. I'd like to see Lucas and Babel especially and even Dossena get a few games in the reserves, away from the spotlight. How it would effect their confidence I'm not sure but a few good games could give them more confidence. I see Ngog is getting a few reserve games and has scored a couple.
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Offline pauldonnelly16

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 11:06:29 am »
Yeah, the B Team idea is another alternative, but can't ever see the FA going for something like that so I think Rafa should be using the resources already available to get his players up to match standard. I know the standard of the reserves is nothing like the PL, but still, it's a better standard than sitting on a bench for 90 minutes every week.

I do wonder whether the reason the reserves aren't used for getting first team players up to standard is as Martyn says? Christ, could just imagine the headlines the papers would have if we had £20million Robbie Keane lining up for a game at the Halliwell Jones stadium in Warrington!! :D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:09:00 am by pauldonnelly16 »

Offline LFCYNWA

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 11:18:01 am »
haha I'm there most weeks supporting the reserves
that would be a shock if he came out haha

Offline bryanod

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 11:21:05 am »
Someone doesn't play due to injury or the summer, they lack match fitness.

If they don't play for weeks on end how come they don't?
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Offline pauldonnelly16

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 11:21:50 am »
haha I'm there most weeks supporting the reserves
that would be a shock if he came out haha

I keep meaning to go the ressies games as i'm from Warrington myself, but always seem to be busy whenever they're playing!

What's the standard of games like? Do you think the likes of Babel and co would benefit from being out there getting a bit of match practice??

Offline SingaRed

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 11:34:27 am »
I keep meaning to go the ressies games as i'm from Warrington myself, but always seem to be busy whenever they're playing!

What's the standard of games like? Do you think the likes of Babel and co would benefit from being out there getting a bit of match practice??

The standard is not that high but this is a plus as the player would be able to score a goal or two. It is better than just staying in training and then not being picked for the squad.
The second is that we travel to Fergusons office before the season start and let him set up everything. So we can take it from there.

Offline Moley

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 11:41:12 am »
Someone doesn't play due to injury or the summer, they lack match fitness.

If they don't play for weeks on end how come they don't?

Because they are able to train id imagine
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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 11:42:54 am »
Because they are able to train id imagine

But they train from pre-season, yet they talk about match fitness.

After a couple of weeks back from injury, match-fitness.

Not fitness, MATCH-fitness, suggesting playing time.
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Offline RedMiksa

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 12:04:46 pm »
I do wonder whether the reason the reserves aren't used for getting first team players up to standard is as Martyn says? Christ, could just imagine the headlines the papers would have if we had £20million Robbie Keane lining up for a game at the Halliwell Jones stadium in Warrington!! :D

I saw a Chelsea reserve match last spring and they had Shevschenko starting and I remember that he hadn't even been injured (he still sucked at reserve level btw). They also had Pizarro and Ben haim starting. But I remember that there wasn't anything said about it in the media even though he cost more than Keane. Well, maybe he was already seen as a certain flop so it wasn't news worthy, who knows.

Offline fowlerisgod96

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 12:08:37 pm »
No point, cos they'd just be playing against youth players. If everyone actually used their reserves for what they used to be used for, it'd work. Not now.

I remember a Liverpool reserves team playing at Leicester, with the likes of Fowler, Berger and Redknapp all starting.
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Offline pauldonnelly16

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 12:14:21 pm »
No point, cos they'd just be playing against youth players. If everyone actually used their reserves for what they used to be used for, it'd work. Not now.

Yeah, i agree they'd be playing against youth players which would hardly be the most testing of opposition. But, surely playing against youth players in a competetive match mid-week is better than playing against nobody at all for a fortnight??

Offline JoeTwerp

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 12:15:56 pm »
Yeah, the B Team idea is another alternative, but can't ever see the FA going for something like that

I think one way to go about it would be to compromise with the FA with a rule that all B teams have to operate under the 6+5 rule. This would ensure that all the top English talent was at least getting competitive games in England instead of rotting in the reserves.  The biggest challenge would be the implementation, which would have to be a bit of a gradual process

Offline fowlerisgod96

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 12:19:47 pm »
Yeah, i agree they'd be playing against youth players which would hardly be the most testing of opposition. But, surely playing against youth players in a competetive match mid-week is better than playing against nobody at all for a fortnight??

Nah, they'd get more out of a training match than that
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Offline pauldonnelly16

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 12:24:18 pm »
Nah, they'd get more out of a training match than that

You reckon? I'd imagine a young rookie centre-half lookin to make a name for himself against a big name like Keane would provide tougher opposition in a competetive match - rather than a half arsed Carra or Sami in a friendly training session?

Offline .adam

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 12:25:15 pm »
It'd be interesting to see if we're contractually obligated to enter the Reserves league. If not, a bunch of the top teams could essentially form their own reserve league which mimics the Premier League i.e. If we play Chelsea then the reserves play Chelsea on the same weekend etc.

Not sure how you'd cope with relegation etc. but as a concept...

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 12:39:11 pm »
It'd be interesting to see if we're contractually obligated to enter the Reserves league. If not, a bunch of the top teams could essentially form their own reserve league which mimics the Premier League i.e. If we play Chelsea then the reserves play Chelsea on the same weekend etc.

Not sure how you'd cope with relegation etc. but as a concept...
If we could form our own reserve league I would like to see it include:
Liverpool
Arsenal
Manchester United
Manchester City (usually have good reserve and youth teams)
Chelsea
AC Milan
Inter
Juve
Bayern Munich
Lyon
L'OM or PSG?
Ajax/PSV?
Roma?

12 to 14 teams playing 24 to 28 games

Offline scousejon

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 02:05:44 pm »
Its a great idea and one I wish rafa woul use.  Would do keane, babel, lucas, dossena and the rest of them the world of good.  Good bit of confidence.  Your right about them looking off the pace.  Robbie need 4-5 games in a row with torres and im positive they'll perform.  How can they build up an "understanding if one of them is on the bench".  I know torres has been injured etc etc,  but he's played they last few matches now.  You ask me, they need to play more.
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Offline macca007

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 02:29:36 pm »
 1 flaw is that benitez wants these players for the 1st team at weekends and has said he picks a team on how the players are training that week. He wants the players competin for their position. Send them out for the reserves mid week and whats that goin to do for their confidence? These are players we want ready for our 1st team not sulks like pennant. They need to pull their fingers out when they pull on the shirt!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 02:34:02 pm by macca007 »

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 03:16:11 pm »
id like to see lucas in the reserves at least so he can partner plessis.
since he was moved to the first team plessis has missed lucas very badly.

i think those 2 will be our central midfield within 2 years if they can work together again.


plessis and spearing are not realy on the same wavelength.

bit ike our first team midfield half the time
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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2009, 03:53:50 pm »
I agree, and it would have happened in the "old days".

The problem is, if Robbie started in the reserves, everyone would moan like a bitch.
Both statements correct. That and in the good "old days" the reserve/central league was very competitive.

Offline cevans16

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2009, 07:04:40 pm »
I agree, any player that is not playing regularly in the first team should play in the reserves, it would help them get match sharpness and pick up some form/confidence.  I think it would be an ideal situation for the likes of Keane, Babel, Lucas, Dossena and such players to have some outings in the reserves, think it would do them good.
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Offline Marko B

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2009, 02:04:50 am »
You reckon? I'd imagine a young rookie centre-half lookin to make a name for himself against a big name like Keane would provide tougher opposition in a competetive match - rather than a half arsed Carra or Sami in a friendly training session?

Mate it's the highest level, players are competing for spots. They don't just mosie around and not put in for training matches and if they do they don't play. Simple as that.

Read what Carra has to say. He is constantly dogged by the fear of not cutting it at the top level therefore I have no doubt he trains with maximum effort and would prove a far sterner challenge, even in training, than any reserve level back men.
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Offline blacksun

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 01:19:25 pm »
This isnt a bad shout, players like babel and lucas especially could use the games to boost confidence but Im not sure the likes of keane and doessena who are 28 and 1st choice picks for their internation teams would take too kindly or gain too much from it.

The main problem with this is we have such a huge reserve squad already that this would hinder those players even more if 2 or 3 1st teamers are drafted in to the reserves on a regular basis.

The counter argument could be that it would help the ressie players development to play with players of this quality on a regular basis.

All in all not a bad idea but cant see it ever happening

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Re: Fringe Players & the reserves...
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2011, 05:45:17 pm »
Just been watching a few clips of the reserves today that ngoo, sterling suso and coady look like very good prospects along with pacheco to who scored a cracker today