Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1195901 times)

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,070
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13560 on: February 13, 2010, 01:44:44 am »
Oh yeah and Alonso has gone.Thats shown him up more than anything.No wonder he was so upset when he left.

If that has shown him up then its shown up the rest of the team because we have been pretty shit so far. With or without Gerrard.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

  • Pitbull #2. Fanning the flames of debate since 03/06/10.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,806
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13561 on: February 13, 2010, 01:46:35 am »
Because he for years has had a massive influence in us winning games, at the very highest level and been key to our successes in his specific way. That may not be a controlled way to how your looking at it (like the way Alonso does it). But it is a influence.

He has scored in every final we have been in and scored against nearly all the best teams we have faced.

Because he is usually, almost, always there when we need him. Because he has played at a high level wherever he has played, from full back to the right wing.

Is Cristiano Ronaldo a world class player?
my thing is though loco we as a team(not one player) could have been in more finals if Gerrard had of shook of the idea that he is so important and put his all into the team,not in spates as he has done.Now we are looking the change the way we play and the guy just cannot play the football the team needs.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13562 on: February 13, 2010, 01:48:38 am »
Hey Loco.
I must say i've always enjoyed your posts.Ever since Monty Pyton broke up i've been waiting for a good comedy.
Still though it would be nice for you to explain why you disagree with,other than listening to the regulars telling you gerrard is word class.
I am more than willing for someone to explain to me how i am wrong and change my view.I really am.

I'm not going to explain nothing to you mate. I'll debate a point if it's reasonable, but I disagree with it. But I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend the ability of Steven Gerrard, because it requires absolutely zero defence.

If you've watched Steven Gerrard over the last 12 years and you still don't see that he's amongst the very best in the world then no handful of paragraphs I write on RAWK is going to convince you, regardless of how open to ideas you claim to be.
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,070
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13563 on: February 13, 2010, 01:49:26 am »
my thing is though loco we as a team(not one player) could have been in more finals if Gerrard had of shook of the idea that he is so important and put his all into the team,not in spates as he has done.Now we are looking the change the way we play and the guy just cannot play the football the team needs.

We have changed the way we play how? The defend and hoof system?

Last season we played our most effective football and he (along with alot of others) was a key part of that player. He was a great member of an excellent team.

This season, we have played some utterly turgid and shite football. I hope he never ever adapts to the style we are playing at the moment.

Anyway, your on a massive wind up so ill stop now.

Offline ConorYNWA

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,193
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13564 on: February 13, 2010, 01:49:39 am »
No i have always thought that he is overrated.This season has show it up because the players around him no longer player rush and push football.

What about other seasons where hes been key to our success.

His awesome performances in massive finals. Even when hes changed position to suit the team.

Your basing your argument on the last 6 months in which hes underperformed. People who think hes world class are looking at his whole career.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13565 on: February 13, 2010, 03:32:44 am »
it's only fair to keep things in context.

That's appreciated, and I'll try to do the same. Please note that I'm trying to focus on the short-medium term past, so when I say something like

Quote
If we went with risk, arrogance and adventure every match we played,

I mean this season, and that recent rotten patch. I certainly am not suggesting caution forever - one of the great joys of being the big stack is the ability to play very aggressively, and bully the smaller stacks by blatantly stealing their chips. But you have to *be* the big stack before you can do that.

So, no I don't think our squad is shit, but:

Do you honestly think our squad of players is that bad? I think, given how our squad played in the closing stages of last season, and how they've actually played at times (in offensive terms) this season, you've drastically underestimated how good large numbers of our players are. But then I sometimes think Rafa does that too - certainly this season.

That's not the squad that was beating a lot of teams by 3, 4 or 5 goals last season, or overturning deficits twice or thrice or even four times in one match last season. Against Pompey away last season, Rafa was crucially able to first throw on Kuyt to tire out the defenders, Xabi to spray the passes, and then Torres to nail the coffin shut. He wasn't underestimating his squad, in fact, judging by the thick layer of Fat Spanish Waiter shit on the faces of all the pundits who were taking the piss when he left Torres on the bench the first two times, it's arguable that he *overestimated* his ability to kill teams off late.

This season is different. So take the Reading replay I was on about earlier. We lose Torres early, and Gerrard at the half (after he scored no less), and Rafa still didn't underestimate his squad. On came Ngog and Babel, decent replacements considering, and we actually played better out of the halftime. Three quick touches, no five even, Yorky-style  ;D But we couldn't put it away, not for lack of trying, I don't think. Benny gives up a silly peno, and it's tits up. You might question his bringing on of Skittles late instead of Pacheco, but he'd already used two attacking subs, and was getting killed the back in the air. He certainly probably figured one of Ngog, Babel, Kuyt, Benayoun or maybe some big thumping free kick from Agger would have been enough to win it. Was he chicken? Would Pacheco have been the difference?

Quote
Firstly, the likening of Liverpool with its current playing staff and Leeds and Scunthorpe getting the astroglide out for Jermaine Defoe - it really winds me up. I hope other people read that and thought the connection was wrong, because to accept it would be to say we're substandard - a mid-to-lower Premier League squad.

Specific games, Royhendo, specific instances. I'm not suggesting we're a substandard team - far from it. But we had just about enough to beat Arsenal - again, no Johnson, no Torres, no Benayoun - using the contain and counter tactics, and really in my opinion didn't have it in us to pass our way around them. The three slickest players in our squad at beating their man we all out. So we contain and counter. Makes sense to me, especially since they got shafted by Chelsea and United on the counter. It wasn't a secret. Ngog couldn't finish, and we hit the bar twice. The the defense takes its customary nap, and it's tits up again. Right tactics, bad execution. Playing attacking football against Arsenal away would probably have a winning percentage less than 20 I would imagine. Playing triangle football at the home of the triangle football artisans with your three triangle football specialists in sickbay would seem to me to be the wrong decision.

Leeds could just have easily ran into Fernando Torres as they did Defoe, I was only using that as an example. Reading could have run into Fernando too, had no gotten fucking hauled off before I saw the bottom of my first beer glass. Most times, they will run into Nando. Everyone does. Ask the two "world class" defenders he pisses on and gets sent off twice a year. One of them's England captain or something. Torres Owns.

Speaking of Leeds - their ballsy approach didn't get them past 2 of the three Prem teams they faced in knockout competitions this season.

Quote
Secondly, the first paragraph in that chunk above hints at the performance in the last few seasons being enough - that level 2 football as we've cast it without command of the more dominant passing football that some sides can resort to will tick us over, and we'll be happy to accept no further progress. We want to return to dominance, and independently of the shitstorm behind the scenes, we want to see our footballers used in the most effective way. Should we accept no progress beyond where we were in the last few years?

Last season was the best I have seen us look for a long time. There was this absolute sickness about how we crushed teams from the 60th minute on. Whatever level dominance is at, it has to pass last season on the way.

Quote
And here's where I take greatest exception to the post. You suggest that what follows is 'the truth'. It's not really, is it?

No probably at best debatable, but it sure got your fucking attention didn't it  ;D

Quote
So the 'truth' is that in losing Sami and Arbeloa, it was inevitable that the defence would cease to function. Also there's the hint that for the midfield to be able to turn the screws, the defence must keep us in games for a while. Only then can the forwards win it.

So defenders defend, midfielders turn screws, and forwards win it. What about the side functioning as a unit, the Rafa always talks about wanting his sides to function?

Being dead hard to beat is the first order of business. Our recent success under Rafa has been built upon that premise. We do not concede many goals. Reina wins Gold Gloves at home. We are a stingy fucking side away in Europe. We don't have defensive lapses in twelve games straight. The team functions as a unit, yes, of course, but everyone has a primary function. Our forwards are expected to do the bulk of the goalscoring, and our defense is not supposed to get beaten consistency. That's the understanding. Or was.

Hindsight is 20/20, and the rearview mirror shows that our centerbacks were weak to start the season. Skittles and Carra stumbled out of the gates. Both match winning goals against Spurs and Villa were given up in the air. We escaped from Bolton away, but we had to come back twice. Fiorentina, Chelsea, Lyon, Arsenal and Fulham benefited from shambolic defending on our part.

So yes, absolutely, I think Captain Sami Hyppia would have made a difference. Less mistakes, more aerial presence, leadership, and probably a goal or two at the other end.

Quote
Losing Sami and Arbeloa left us with Glen Johnson, Jamie Carragher, Sotiris Krgiakos, Martin Skrtel, Daniel Agger, Fabio Aurelio, Andrea Dossena, Emiliano Insua... from that list, you've got 8 international footballers. Coaching was the issue, not the loss of Sami and Arbeloa.

I would trade most of them for the impact Sami would have brought to a dodgy back line. In any case, Aurelio and Agger weren't usually available, Johnson joined them in sickbay before long, and only after the initial fifteen stitches hit did we scramble for Kyrgiakos. Usually the culprit was a big defensive lapse. Coaching might have prevented Carragher from tackling Mascherano and then breaking Skrtel's jaw, but I'd sooner blame Carra. I was amazed at that bull-in-a-china-shop routine, and you probably also saw the confidence drain from our XI right up and out of the stadium.

Quote
Why is that a 'truth'? We ought to have recovered, given the players we had at our disposal and the fact that, save for a couple of games, our side was stronger than its opponent every single time, and often held a lead until the dying seconds, only to lose it due to poor decision making and rank stupidity.

No argument there.

Quote
That's where the poker metaphor is maybe more apt. What happens when you've got the game locked up and one deal left to play?

You maximize the damage. The football equivalent would be Babel scoring with his arse when we're up a half dozen in garbage time. A one goal lead is not garbage time.

Quote
My memory of that game is not that we attacked like drunken frat boys, and the goals we conceded were basic defensive mistakes. The fact we couldn't stick to a game plan and make it work was down to the coaching, and nothing else.

How can coaching overcome losing 2 players to injuries in the first 20 minutes? Agger looked like he was pulled out of a car accident. How many times have we had big injuries in the first half of a match this season? How can you blame not being able to stick to a game plan when you have to change it twice in the first twenty minutes, watch the replacement player score, then fuck up, then fuck up again, and you still come from behind to snatch an opportunistic draw against a team that pisses money? How can it be coaching? That ball bounces one way, we have an early lead, and Rafa's a genius, it bounces another, Agger's hospitalized, Rafa's bottled the coaching.

Quote
At the very least, we should have been able to muster the defiance we eventually managed to show against Spurs at home. Why didn't that come earlier?

We did, against United, no? And Everton since. You're quite right, though, I thought our Champions League campaign was particularly weak. Jovetic, really I mean come on. Five Times, have some pride.

Quote
It's a dangerous thing to swallow excuses whole I'd suggest. We are a better side than you're saying, regardless of the problems we face. We've been in enough winning situations and thrown them away that had we dealt with even half of them, we'd still be in the CL, and we'd still have a mathematical chance in the league.

We weakened the squad, especially at the back, stumbled out the gates, and got inured while drowning in vats of bad luck. Subtle coaching changes may have made a difference, as you suggest, we did enough to take the lead against Arsenal, but then got done on an own goal. You want take the lead, draw them out, and hit them again. Sometimes, rarely, you score an own goal to let them back in the game before you can score again. Defensive disaster can strike. Johnson - own goal - Arshavin - bang bang, go home, thanks for coming. Forget the blatant penalty appeal, nothing to see here.

That I put down to confidence. When a football team is shaken, it makes mistakes, almost expects disaster like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The poker equivalent is the expectant loser.

I believe this season is an obstacle course that will determine our medium term future. It's not pretty, and it's littered with mistakes, but you cannot ignore the guys that left, and the hundred million quid worth of sickbay. That's the difference between last season and this. Not coaching.

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13566 on: February 13, 2010, 08:21:03 am »
Given we are liking this compact defence and expansive attack, why hasn't the 3-5-2 been used more? It would certainly seem to suit a few of our players - 3 centrebacks for example.

Carra Kyrgiakos Agger
Johnson............Masch.............Insua
Lucas Aquilani
Gerrard
Torres

Given our fullbacks have the engines and ability to bomb up and down the flanks, at at least seems an unexplored option. I do know for it to work it woudl require the wingbacks and central midfielders to get in and around the box offering support. Would it leave the back line too exposed if they all pressed so high?

I think it should be used, but a 5-3-2 rather than 5-4-1. the 3 being a triangle of Lucas, Masch and Gerrard. Upfront you'd have Kuyt and Torres. I think that given our recent debates on counter-attacking football, 5-3-2 is the way forward. Plus we have the players to pull it off.

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13567 on: February 13, 2010, 08:28:04 am »
I don't think we are on a fluid non-system path. I think we are definitely on a rigid, system is the key path.

I have mentioned it before but I read an interview with Vicente from Valencia and they mentioned the difference with Benitez and Ranieri. He said that under Ranieri, they were given more freedom and told to be more expressive. Under Rafa he said the players were told to be more rigid by sticking to their positions and not deviating from it too much.

Now we all know which approach was more successful for them, but it gives you and idea of the how we would turn out if everything fell into place.

That is an interesting one. Are you sure though that players under Rafa were rigid "by sticking to their positions"? or did they just say it was rigid? because there is a difference.
Having a 'rigid' system does not translate to a rigid team. I know it sounds like a paradox but Milan of 88 had a very rigid system, but it allowed for fluid movement on the pitch. You can actually argue the same for Brazil 1970.
So the argument is that level 4, if there is to be one, will give more attention to detail and have an even more rigid systems.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13568 on: February 13, 2010, 09:43:09 am »
This thread is getting nuts now.

Maybe I need to dig a little deep and not just scan posts... but inbetween the ridiculous (but sadly expected) criticism of Insua, the notion that Yernited are only better because they're scared of Ferguson (and that's somehow related to their counter-attacking) and now the idea that Gerrard isn't World Class...

*shakes head*


You need to start making this members only Roy; like the freemasons or something, but with beréts.

there's still some good stuff on here big man you just have to go with the ebb and floe.

now these berets sound superb - where do i sign? ;D

Offline Des Equilibrante

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,332
  • Ex-pat Pie-Eater
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13569 on: February 13, 2010, 09:59:26 am »
That is an interesting one. Are you sure though that players under Rafa were rigid "by sticking to their positions"? or did they just say it was rigid? because there is a difference.
Having a 'rigid' system does not translate to a rigid team. I know it sounds like a paradox but Milan of 88 had a very rigid system, but it allowed for fluid movement on the pitch. You can actually argue the same for Brazil 1970.
So the argument is that level 4, if there is to be one, will give more attention to detail and have an even more rigid systems.
Equate it to water in a shaped container. Any particle can be anywhere, but everywhere there is always a particle.
Some say he haunts Rawk threads.

All we know is, he's called Des Equilibrante

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13570 on: February 13, 2010, 10:09:05 am »
I don't think thats fair.The players with the G.I. your talking about cost a lot.On top of that the players you buy in need to be able to learn and that always a gamble.
for the record i think Kuyt has great G.I..
But vulmea do you think gerrard has  good  G.I.?

I think many of Gerrards instincts are fantastic - he has proven time and again how he can link up with quality players - Owen and Torres and Rooney in particular.  He has a great knack of scoring goals whether from right midfield, off the striker, centre midfield even left midfield. Showing  a fantastic versatility , the lad can play well anywhere on the pitch which in itself is a sign of 'game intelligence'. His ability clearly helps with this. Carragher has  this same type of understanding just not the talent which is part of what makes  gerrard unique. His passing range is spectacular, his footwork clever, he also knows when to use his acceleration and power to devastating effect.

As a footballer I think he is exceptional - imo we have two world class englishmen him and Rooney.

In terms of 'game  intelligence ' I think the way he has been developed hasn't done him any favours - he wants/demands being the focus of play, I think he struggles with his back to goal and he allows himself to be de-railed too easily by the emotions of the game which obviously then impacts his effectiveness - because he's dug us out of so many holes and lifted a decent team to a good team I think its understandble why he is the way he is -

I think  handled better he would now be sitting deeper and controlling games, not by charging round at 100mph as he used to but by prompting others to their maximum and still making those surging runs but his 'mentality' doesn't seem to allow that - what's unclear is whether its the glory he craves or the fact he genuinely doesn't think anybody else can do it because most of the time there hasn't been anybody he could consistently rely on - this could explain his devastation about Alonso - his tie ups with Torres  and Owen suggest he isn't adverse  to sharing the spot light.

He can and does fall into the trap of trying to do too much and overwhelming his team mates and gifting possession to the opposition - you could argue this lacks game intelligence but you'd need to understand the context - is it out of greed or lack of options - his dalliances with Chelsea and his  insistance on medals make me wonder. There is clearly a conflict raging inside the lad.

Personally I prefer him to sit in midfield rather than off the striker but how do you argue with last seasons stats? He clearly enjoys the role further forward and it was very effective. However its also allowed him to be man marked out of games when further forward something which is more difficult to do when he's deeper. Likewise  he does not see as much of the ball meaning his overall influence can be less.

He's often accused of vacating midfield when he drops deeper again is he frustrated and  trying to make things happen when nothing is or is it a sign of lack of understanding and poor positional play? If he does go forward shouldn't someone else adjust and compensate rather than just blaming him?

The next couple of years should show the type of player/man he is - his legs will start to lose that edge his game will need to adapt, personally I think he'll need to drop back, I dont think he has the
natural touch or creativity of a regista/playmaker but thats not to say he lacks game intelligence, for his universality alone he's as close to a perfect modern footballer as is currently out there.

A team of gerrards rather than a team of carraghers is the direction football is headed in but is there enough glory to share around?



The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Vulmea

  • Almost saint-like.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,329
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13571 on: February 13, 2010, 10:10:06 am »
Equate it to water in a shaped container. Any particle can be anywhere, but everywhere there is always a particle.

yep the new formation is 10
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13572 on: February 13, 2010, 10:23:02 am »
Rafa making noises that Pacheco is in line for a start, I really hope we don't ruin another lad by playing him out of position.

Ideally for me when Aquilani isn't fit then it's:

--------------Gerrard--------Masch-------------------

---Kuyt--------------Pacheco---------------------Riera

----------------------Torres----------------------------

People moan that Gerard shouldn't be in the middle because he isn't great at tackling, Mascherano is, I keep harping on but we need balance in the centre of midfield.
Against Arsenal we won the ball so many times yet could do nothing with it.

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13573 on: February 13, 2010, 10:46:21 am »
Rafa making noises that Pacheco is in line for a start, I really hope we don't ruin another lad by playing him out of position.

Ideally for me when Aquilani isn't fit then it's:

--------------Gerrard--------Masch-------------------

---Kuyt--------------Pacheco---------------------Riera

----------------------Torres----------------------------

People moan that Gerard shouldn't be in the middle because he isn't great at tackling, Mascherano is, I keep harping on but we need balance in the centre of midfield.
Against Arsenal we won the ball so many times yet could do nothing with it.

When did Rafa say that about Pacheco?

Offline scatman

  • Slutty enough to make Jordan blush - and hard enough to piss in the wrong bush! Missing a shift key.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,087
  • This is my world, you just WORK here :D
    • directions to football stadiums
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13574 on: February 13, 2010, 10:47:30 am »
Degsy wheres these Pacheco comments?
Would sacrifice Fordy in a sacred Mayan ritual to have him as the next Liverpool manager
Football stadiums in England


Offline amir87

  • gay-billeygoat-no-mates with a fetish for water sports. interrogative fingering, and nutella on his plums. possibly with his left phalange.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,200
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13576 on: February 13, 2010, 10:50:06 am »
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/rafa-starlet-close-to-debut

Rafa: Starlet close to debut
 
Rafael Benitez has revealed how Dani Pacheco is edging ever closer to his first Liverpool start.

 
The Spanish starlet has made two substitute appearances for the Reds first-team so far this season and has been in dazzling form for John McMahon's reserve side.

Pacheco has also been named on the bench for five of Liverpool's last seven fixtures, and Benitez admits the 19-year-old's full debut may not be too far away.

"Dani is continuing to train with the first team," said the Reds boss.

"When we let (Andriy) Voronin go (to Dynamo Moscow), we immediately brought Dani into the group and every day you can see that he is progressing. His training is good.

"Every day you are thinking about when you can play, he has been on the bench a lot and sometimes you are thinking when it might be right to put him on.

"But you also have to think about senior players and giving time to others who need it. The one thing we know, though, is Dani is a player with quality.

"He has game intelligence and we know that he can make a difference. He is still very young but we are pleased with him and he is doing well."

Pacheco agreed a new deal to keep him at Anfield until 2012 last August, and Benitez is confident the former Barcelona forward has the talent to succeed at first-team level.

"Dani has no problems when he is in possession," he said. "He is clever and he always wants to try difficult things but that shows the quality that he has.

"The fact he is training with us shows what we think of him. He is with us all the time and that means he can play at any time.

"It depends on the game but, clearly, if he continues to keep working as he has been doing, he will definitely gets his chance."


Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,801
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13577 on: February 13, 2010, 10:50:10 am »
Think Rafa sounds a lot more bland than the headline makes out.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13578 on: February 13, 2010, 11:05:31 am »
Think Rafa sounds a lot more bland than the headline makes out.
He'll start against Umit.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13579 on: February 13, 2010, 11:36:40 am »
He'll start against Umit.

if he does -  and fingers crossed - the team you suggest playing around him would make a lot of sense.

or stevie g on the right of him and dirk on the left of him with lucas filling the gap in midfield.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,070
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13580 on: February 13, 2010, 02:16:31 pm »
That is an interesting one. Are you sure though that players under Rafa were rigid "by sticking to their positions"? or did they just say it was rigid? because there is a difference.
Having a 'rigid' system does not translate to a rigid team. I know it sounds like a paradox but Milan of 88 had a very rigid system, but it allowed for fluid movement on the pitch. You can actually argue the same for Brazil 1970.
So the argument is that level 4, if there is to be one, will give more attention to detail and have an even more rigid systems.

God knows, but I am sure by rigidness he meant that players are give instructions and they have to stick to those instructions. That could take the form of always being asked to run at a defender, or not to stray too far forward, or get as close to the striker as possible etc. All rigidness may not be defensive in nature but I guess its still more rigid then telling someone they have the freedom in attacking areas to do what is best.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13581 on: February 13, 2010, 02:24:07 pm »
He'll start against Umit.

@degsy - do you think kelly will get a go at right back?

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13582 on: February 13, 2010, 02:48:11 pm »
if he does -  and fingers crossed - the team you suggest playing around him would make a lot of sense.

or stevie g on the right of him and dirk on the left of him with lucas filling the gap in midfield.

May be the second leg is more likely if we have a good lead or something.
But more importantly, wouldn't that signal a move towards a more dominant, attacking kind of football in the next few games. Surely Rafa knows that Pacheco lacks the physique to play the current football we are playing now.

Offline socrates the sophist

  • No new LFC topics
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13583 on: February 13, 2010, 02:54:59 pm »
God knows, but I am sure by rigidness he meant that players are give instructions and they have to stick to those instructions. That could take the form of always being asked to run at a defender, or not to stray too far forward, or get as close to the striker as possible etc. All rigidness may not be defensive in nature but I guess its still more rigid then telling someone they have the freedom in attacking areas to do what is best.

I am not really sure. It is just hard for me to imagine that Guardiola tells Messi take the ball and dribble defenders tell you find an opening. To me it is more like a harmony, each instrument seems to be playing its own note. But in fact they are part of a greater, very much systematic, musical note that has been very carefully written by the composer.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13584 on: February 13, 2010, 02:56:26 pm »
May be the second leg is more likely if we have a good lead or something.
But more importantly, wouldn't that signal a move towards a more dominant, attacking kind of football in the next few games. Surely Rafa knows that Pacheco lacks the physique to play the current football we are playing now.

there is logic in what you're saying but i think with what rafa's saying today he's paving the way for a start at anfield.   he's also seeking to mitigate any backlash from the baying mob in case the little fella doesn't deliver.  to be honest i know fuck all about our opposition but i do know they're not a premiership team and that makes me think that aquillai has to get a run out too.

Offline JP-65

  • FA/UEFA/FIFA are not fit for purpose
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,775
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13585 on: February 13, 2010, 03:55:20 pm »
Roy
The most amazing choke job in history by your boys this afternoon :butt

Offline b_joseph

  • b_jesus, b_mary, b_joseph and the wee b_donkey. Unloyal gloryhunter who was probably Kelly Osbourne in another life.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,619
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13586 on: February 13, 2010, 06:40:53 pm »
Rafa making noises that Pacheco is in line for a start, I really hope we don't ruin another lad by playing him out of position.

Ideally for me when Aquilani isn't fit then it's:

--------------Gerrard--------Masch-------------------

---Kuyt--------------Pacheco---------------------Riera

----------------------Torres----------------------------

People moan that Gerard shouldn't be in the middle because he isn't great at tackling, Mascherano is, I keep harping on but we need balance in the centre of midfield.
Against Arsenal we won the ball so many times yet could do nothing with it.
I actually think Pacheco might have a easier time settling in as a CM to begin with. Most teams that play us usually sag off our CM's and give them the time to make any pass they want. His vision and daring would really shine in that role.

Thursday night he would have a dream experience playing as a CM....the following Sunday, not so much though.

Offline hassinator

  • RAWK Funk Soul Brother
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,878
  • oot and proud
    • good egg hq
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13587 on: February 13, 2010, 07:42:34 pm »
I actually think Pacheco might have a easier time settling in as a CM to begin with. Most teams that play us usually sag off our CM's and give them the time to make any pass they want. His vision and daring would really shine in that role.

Thursday night he would have a dream experience playing as a CM....the following Sunday, not so much though.

its a tempting thought but i just don't see him as being big enough to play central midfield. 

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13588 on: February 13, 2010, 09:03:08 pm »
Roy
The most amazing choke job in history by your boys this afternoon :butt

Aye, twas quite the Michael Hutchence wasn't it? I felt terrible for Andy Robinson.

What the fuck was Lawson playing at after they'd had a clear warning? And that forward pass, I ask you... ?

But all that said I was happy we scored some tries and to feel like we should have won in Cardiff - we actually played well. Criminal to throw away a lead like that, and you can be sure Andy Robinson won't entertain any excuses, but it felt a lot different to Scotland under Frank Hadden. We attacked a side and it was exhilarating to remember how that feels. My two lads were getting right into it aswell.

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13589 on: February 13, 2010, 09:04:59 pm »
I hate rugby. I hate patriotism. I hate Wales.

However, as someone who was sadly born between these particular squiggly lines on a map, may I just say to Roy, who happens to have been born between a completely different set of squiggly lines on a map - SUCK IT BITCH. YOU GOT SERVED. DO YOU LIKE THAT? DOES IT TASTE GOOD?!
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13590 on: February 13, 2010, 09:21:13 pm »
I hate rugby. I hate patriotism. I hate Wales.

However, as someone who was sadly born between these particular squiggly lines on a map, may I just say to Roy, who happens to have been born between a completely different set of squiggly lines on a map - SUCK IT BITCH. YOU GOT SERVED. DO YOU LIKE THAT? DOES IT TASTE GOOD?!

I'd like to see a modern 'hood' version of "Are You Being Served" with department store-based ghetto dance-offs.

Tastes like leeks.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13591 on: February 13, 2010, 09:39:13 pm »
its a tempting thought but i just don't see him as being big enough to play central midfield. 
I often wonder how big "big enough" is.

Cesc Fabregas is 5 foot 9 and weighs 11 stone.  He's hardly slight but he's not massive yet he's one of the best central midfielders not just in the Premier League but in Europe.

Would you fuck with Javier Mascherano?  I wouldn't yet again he's only 5 foot 9 and 12 stone.

And in an age where football was hard and you could get away with twatting people we had 5 foot 2, yes 5 foot 2 inches, of Sammy Lee man marking Paul Breitner to perfection. One of our best centre mids ever.

I personally don't believe that stature is any judge of a player's ability, and maybe at 5 feet 8 I'm a bit bias but football is littered with little generals.  What matters when a player is asked to play in central midfield is attitude, it's not being small enough to be pushed off the ball (when was the last time Masch was outmuscled) it's the attitude to not let the other man push you over.

It's a non starter for me because Pacheco is a natural number 10, not a centre mid playing further forward like Gerrard but a player we haven't had since Jari Litmanen. Plus he's something we've been sorely missing for years, a man who can score from free-kicks.

Offline -Sad Fuck-

  • ... is rather queer
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,252
  • Tiny dancer
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13592 on: February 13, 2010, 10:09:59 pm »
Worth pointing out that Pacheco played central midfield for the reserves for the most part last season, presumably to help him toughen up a bit, and to react with less time on the ball, which seems to have helped, as he's in brilliant form at the moment.
hi

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13593 on: February 13, 2010, 10:13:04 pm »
Worth pointing out that Pacheco played central midfield for the reserves for the most part last season, presumably to help him toughen up a bit, and to react with less time on the ball, which seems to have helped, as he's in brilliant form at the moment.
Yeah was it Jack Hobbs who we did that with as well?
Will be really interesting to see where he fits in.  It's not if but when, he's also got an easier time than the likes of Lucas, Insua, Darby etc. because he won't be doing things that lead to us conceding goals and finger pointing.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13594 on: February 13, 2010, 10:41:06 pm »
Just saw van Nistelroy score twice for HSV... natural finisher there. Anybody know why it didn´t work out for us?

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13595 on: February 13, 2010, 10:44:25 pm »

Will be really interesting to see where he fits in. 

I think because of his pace and technic he will fit in on the wing or upfront. Cannot see him ready for center midfield pyhsical-wise yet though.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Juan Loco

  • down in Acapulco. LIkes 'em salty and succulent, the wee lambies!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,902
  • We've got our valuation and we're sticking to it
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13596 on: February 13, 2010, 10:51:48 pm »
Just saw van Nistelroy score twice for HSV... natural finisher there. Anybody know why it didn´t work out for us?



Because Rafa didn't want him?

Yeah was it Jack Hobbs who we did that with as well?
Will be really interesting to see where he fits in.  It's not if but when, he's also got an easier time than the likes of Lucas, Insua, Darby etc. because he won't be doing things that lead to us conceding goals and finger pointing.

They did the same with San Jose as well.

Hopefully he plays just off the striker. Once Yossi is back I'd be more than tempted to go straight forward 4-4-2, or at the very least put Stevie back into the middle of the park. Was against it initially, but I'm sick to death of seeing the ball get wide and there being nobody in the box. Aquilani plays once a bluemoon so fuck it, stick Gerrard there.

Masch, Gerrard, Lucas and Aquilani is good depth in midfield. Benayoun and Maxi is good depth on the right. Riera and Jovanovic will be good on the left, if that's where Jovanovic plays. Torres, N'gog, Kuyt and hopefully another (or possibly Jovanovic?) will be good depth upfront. Makes a nonsense of the notion of a bad (or even unbalanced) squad... Just the manager issue again. God forbid if that was being coached by a guy who could get the best out of them and maybe even Babel (though that is hoping). May be looking at a run at the title beyond October.
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

A fully signed-up member of SPAS
The Stuart Pearce Apologist Society

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,444
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13597 on: February 13, 2010, 10:58:00 pm »
I think because of his pace and technic he will fit in on the wing or upfront. Cannot see him ready for center midfield pyhsical-wise yet though.
Ah but what if he plays really well, undroppably so?
Then what of the sacrosanct system that cannot be changed? Torres can't be dropped when fit and plays nowhere bar up top, Dirk Kuyt is held onto the pitch with an elaborate system of under-soil magnets, Gerrard has "Play me in the hole gaffa" as his default sentence.

For me I reckon in a fully fit team we'd have Maxi, Riera, Benayoun, Babel and probably Pacheco thrashing it out for the left wing spot.
One of which is left footed.

I'd love a return to 4-4-2 with Maxi on the right, Riera on the left, a number 10 behind Torres (Kuyt, N'Gog or Pacheco), and Gerrard in the middle with Mascherano, attacker and defender.

Part of me wants to play devils advocate and see what Rafa would do if a bright spark came through and had to be played.
Not just because it's for the good of Liverpool but I'd love to see how he'd deal with the situation, maybe we saw it with Keane and he'd just bench the lesser.

Offline Des Equilibrante

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,332
  • Ex-pat Pie-Eater
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13598 on: February 14, 2010, 02:26:52 am »
yep the new formation is 10
Playground football!
Some say he haunts Rawk threads.

All we know is, he's called Des Equilibrante

Offline Des Equilibrante

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,332
  • Ex-pat Pie-Eater
Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13599 on: February 14, 2010, 02:33:22 am »
I'd love a return to 4-4-2 with Maxi on the right, Riera on the left, a number 10 behind Torres (Kuyt, Ngog or Pacheco), and Gerrard in the middle with Mascherano, attacker and defender.
Why 442? What is so sacrosanct about this system? I'm pretty certain we've tried it a few times. Sissoko and Lucas CM with Gerrard and Kewell on the wings? Kuyt and Torres up front?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/7099694.stm

Was that 442?
Some say he haunts Rawk threads.

All we know is, he's called Des Equilibrante