Good to get back to some serious in-depth discussion (even if I don't agree entirely
).
Mane tracks back more for us than Salah does, though - you can see that almost every game that Salah and Mane play together, especially in the average positions graphs. Salah stays forward, Mane drops back (although that's obviously not 100% set in stone)... But the names aren't really important - it's more about the roles that get performed. You can see from his Mainz team, Dortmund, and now Liverpool that there are certain tasks that are common to all of them. It's the same for any manager - the formations might change, but there are things they all want to see in the game from every team they coach, be it the long ball from an Allardyce team, or the possession domination of Guardiola. Looking at those traits, I think, gives us a good indication of where Klopp wants to take us.
I think the perception of Mane & Salah's contributions is very situational; if you'd written this a couple of months earlier, it would probably acknowledge that (at that time), Salah's tracking back seemed to be more conscientious than Mane's. Whether we have Gomez or TAA at right back, Moreno or Robertson on the left, is Milner playing on the left of the midfield three, who are the opposition, what's the game situation, who is in better form and has the freshest legs - all of these impact the (apparent) relative responsibilities of Mane and Salah, I think. Which means I consider them as playing essentially the same role (mirrored), notwithstanding those differences game to game (and there are other changes generally around the hour mark, as we start to shuffle the front three with substitutions and 'pre-substitution' changes).
This I think becomes relevant because - although you talk (rightly) about the
system being about more than the formation, the post and subsequent discussion then tends to get drawn back to the formation and how our players fit it, or might fit it. In Klopp's case, I'm not sure that it is clear that that Dortmund side (or any of his Dortmund sides) were his defining moment; that moment has perhaps not yet arrived.
No formation is ever truly what we write on paper, except in defence, which is why I focused more on the roles they played. The average positions of games show Gundogan being much closer to Bender than he was to Reus/Gotze. In fact, he was the deepest defender. So while the actual player might change, it's clear that Klopp wants someone sitting at the back of the midfield, someone running, and someone up near the striker for support and breaking the line, and breaking the lines. Those roles can be fulfilled whether the formation is 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 3-4-1-2, or anything else. Formations are neutral That's why I wanted to not get bogged down on the names, because the names make people get too specific about what is being talked about - and we're not really comparing players, we're only comparing their tasks in the system.
We press, we counter press, we attack at pace or we happily (if not always comfortably) retain the ball for a time to probe, to manage the game, to recover. Fine.
I don't think it's so clear cut, however, that there's any sign of progression (other than the odd appearance that doesn't seem to demonstrate an emerging pattern) to the typical referenced Dortmund shape. In response to a couple of replies in the thread, I don't think there's any sign that Coutinho was a primary reason for the 433 rather than 4231/4411, or that his departure may hasten a return to 4231/4411, either. Not least, a couple of roles in the 4231/4411 could be said to have been better suited to him than those he often took up in the 433.
Managing in England may have triggered some changes in Klopp's approach - interestingly, of our long and illustrious list of managers each with their defining style and defining moments, most had experience only of managing in England; three of the most successful only/primarily/firstly at Liverpool itself. But then reviewing some old ZonalMarking reports on Dortmund games indicate a willingness to explore the possibilities of a 433, too - his last visit to Bayern as Dortmund manager (
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2015/05/01/bayern-1-1-dortmund-klopp-floods-the-centre-to-harm-bayerns-build-up/) looks particularly familiar to anyone watching us over the last couple of years. Was the familiar Dortmund shape Klopp's defining shape, or one constrained by the players he had available but has always had half an eye on evolving away from?
The shape we're using - effectively, the number 9 we're using - gives us a
4231/4411 451 shape defensively, but can give us a variety of attacking shapes; essentially, something like a 442 diamond but with the flexibility for any of the front three to take up any role within any particular attacking phase. Firmino can be the point of the diamond, but he's just about quick enough and slick enough to act as 'striker' in one move, or beat a fullback and pull the ball back for a teammate in the next. Mane and Salah (lately, particularly Salah) excel at the transition from their wide 'defensive' shape into an attacking 'two', running at or through the gap between CB and FB; yet both also have enough skill on the ball and in their passing play to play pass and move, one twos and through balls around the box in less frenetic moments.
Thus I don't expect Firmino necessarily to line up as the '10', and Salah as the '9', other than in specific passages of play. The pursuit of Lemar I suspect is not that he's suddenly needed as a critical starter with Mane/Salah now otherwise occupied, as to ensure we still have the depth in attacking areas to be able (if not compelled) to rest one of them in any particular game.
What this does mean, is that while Keita's arrival in the summer occupies the '8', in my view we have
two '8's to fill, with the '10'
function being the secondary responsibility of both 8's
and each of the front three - particularly, but not solely, Firmino - at different moments. For those 8's (or one of them, when we have Keita) when we need guile, Lallana is an obvious candidate. For pace, power and attacking threat, Chamberlain seems to be emerging as a more trusted option perhaps than Can, Wijnaldum or Milner. It does seem to be an area that could stand another player to compete for a place, though - particularly perhaps a left footer or one (like Chamberlain) who can double up as cover for Mane/Salah or even Firmino. I've not seen enough of Lemar (or Goretzka, or anyone else we're occasionally linked with) to say whether he's seen as that sort of player. But of course, neither was Wijnaldum until we bought him.
It doesn't appear that we're impatient to solve the '6' in this window, thus happy with Henderson and Can as our options there for now - but it's an obvious next stop for attention. I tend to agree that Klopp may not be overly concerned by the keeper, perhaps still having faith in Karius making the step up after being given a more gradual acclimitisation period this season than last.