Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed

[Alf Garnett!]

As for facts in the Suarez case,this post deserves to be here.

I've tried to keep up with this thread, but every hour another 7000 pages are added! So my apologies if this has already been shown.

Credit to RedLFCBlood over on LFCREDS, here is video of Evra going down after contact with Suarez. Before you watch it, here are the FA's words:
In the 58th minute of the game, Mr Suarez fouled Mr Evra between the edge of the Manchester United penalty area and the corner flag at the Kop end. It seemed to us to be a deliberate foul, and the referee awarded a free kick. The foul was committed by Mr Suarez kicking Mr Evra on his right knee. Mr Evra explained that he had previously had a bad problem in that knee. He remained on the ground receiving medical treatment for about one minute after the tackle.


2nd point: Mr Evra said that while he was lying on the ground, Mr Kuyt came up to him and said "stand up, you fucking prick". Mr Kuyt said "This is untrue. What I did say was something to the effect of "Stand up, stand up", as if to say that it had been a foul but he was making too much of it". The video footage did not show Mr Kuyt speaking to Mr Evra at this time, but Mr Kuyt admitted that he did so.

Now watch the video starting at about 1:15. Suarez did not kick Evra deliberately, and Kuyt did say something to Evra. Both points are obvious on the video to even the most biased United apologist, yet the FA gets both points horrendously wrong. They had zero desire to get the facts right. They put their blinders on and set out to find whatever they could to convict Suarez, discounting any evidence that didn't fit their wishes.

It's a fucking witch hunt! 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/LH50lwwBRms?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US&amp;amp;rel=0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/LH50lwwBRms?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US&amp;amp;rel=0</a>

[Rafa_La]

This is kriss' 1000th post and posted here
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=280869.0
Qualifies as a post to recall given his devotion in following the REDS & having a wealth of knowledge about our history.

1969 Doncaster Rovers (FA Cup 3rd round) Anfield 2-0
Roger Hunt 70' Ian Callaghan 84'
Att 48,330

This is a quite massive and memorable day in my life, the first time I see a match live at Anfield. Bus from Chester to Birkenhead, ferry across the river, another bus from Pier Head. I wander around the stadium trying to take everything in. I am a bit apprehensive about standing on the Kop so I buy a ticket for the Kemlyn Road Stand. I buy a match-programme and enter the stadium early to watch the crowd build up. My seat is low down at the Anfield Road end of the stadium.

It is a big day for Doncaster Rovers too, the sort of cup draw a lower League club dreams about. I am familiar with all the Liverpool players but of Doncaster’s I know little, other than that their goalkeeper John Ogston used to be on our books and that their forward Alick Jeffrey was a wonderful prospect as a youth but had a career blighted by injury. Jeffrey, a few days short of his 30th birthday at the time of this match, has little impact on the game. Of the match itself I remember little. Even reading newspaper-reports of the time does not refresh my memory much. But I remember the second-half strikes from Hunt and Callaghan into the Kop goal away to my left. Most of all I just remember the happiness of being at Anfield for the first time, the thrill of … well, of just being there. Forty-three years on, I remember that as if it was yesterday. Six hundred and fifty-eight Liverpool matches at Anfield later, the events of Saturday the 4th of January 1969 are still carefully stored away in my mind and I can bring them back any time I choose to and I most certainly choose to on the anniversary today.

[Chakan]

Dion Fanning, one of the few mainstream journalists that I have any time for, one said of the Roy Hodgson era at Liverpool that “those who believe that Hodgson’s dismissal demonstrates a fundamental shift in Liverpool’s relationship with their manager forget that his appointment was the fundamental shift. Liverpool had never sought middle England’s approval before and those who delighted in the success of a friend never paid attention to the muted sounds of disapproval on Merseyside. Hodgson was the wrong appointment, not an appointment that didn’t get time. There was not a fundamental shift in Liverpool supporters’ relationship with their manager. Roy Hodgson was not their manager. He was Sky’s manager, the establishment’s manager, the English FA’s manager.” This, I think, is a pretty good summation of some of the fundamental reasons why Hodgson was destined to fail at Anfield. Results, naturally, were key as well, but there were also many other factors at play. Liverpool F.C. is not a straightforward, open-and-shut book of football club. Never has been, never will be. The same is true of the city of Liverpool itself. Those who have enjoyed success at Anfield are the ones who understood this. It has been pointed out that the banners and flags on the Kop tend to reference managers (Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish, Houllier, Benítez) rather than players. There’s a reason. Values such as loyalty, inner-strength, leadership, hard work and commitment are the ones we hold most dearly, and it is our managers who have historically exhibited these ideals most vividly.

It is why we have the Shankly and Paisley Gates, and why there is a statue of a manager rather than a player outside Anfield. It is also why the faces of Graeme Souness and Roy Hodgson will never sit alongside their aforementioned counterparts on the Kop, not simply because they failed to win much but because they clearly never understood us. Souness called his decision to sell a story to a certain newspaper on the third anniversary of Hillsborough a mistake. That’s not all it was. It was also a fundamental failure to understand the club and its community. Hodgson’s myriad of gaffes over his six months in charge, meanwhile, had us all wondering if he had even the slightest clue of who we are. One listen to You’ll Never Walk Alone would have told him immediately. A great man once defined it like this: “when you’re in a fog you stick together because that way you don’t get lost. If there’s a secret to us, that’s it”. That’s Liverpool F.C. in a nutshell. Agreeing with Alex Ferguson that your star striker is a cheat does not compute. Now think of “middle England”. Think of “the establishment”. Ask yourself what they have ever done for this club. Ask yourself who it was that threw those deplorable accusations around in the aftermath of Hillsborough, who it was that hounded our best manager in 20 years out of a job, who it was that were happy to sit by and watch as £300m worth of debt was heaped upon the club to the point where administration (and probable relegation) beckoned in favour of blaming the manager and the players, who it was that has heaped derision on us for our support of Luis Suárez who (I could say plenty more about it) wasn’t given anything approaching a fair hearing? Who is it that always invites us to “get over” Hillsborough, told us that Istanbul was a fluke, told us that we needed a British manager like Roy, are now telling us that Kenny Dalglish is losing it (it started with James Lawton and Patrick Barclay at the beginning of November, maybe earlier, it has gone into overdrive in the last week)? Do any of these examples sound like those entities have the best interests of this club at heart?

There has been much (correct) talk of reconciliation on this site over the past few days, of how the club should reach out to the media, to community groups, even to Manchester United in the hope that we can all understand and trust each other that little bit more. I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment, but we must be careful. It needs to be done, but it needs to be done on our terms because a Liverpool F.C. that prostrates itself in front of “middle England” or “the establishment” and simply bows to their wishes is incompatible with the one that I have loved for two decades, the one that started out for me as just a football team that had some of my favourite players on it (Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge, Rush) and grew into something infinitely more meaningful than that. It’s incompatible with what I know about the city of Liverpool too, a community that has fought its corner more times than I can count.

Consider who you’re talking about here. A media that includes tabloids like The S*n, Daily Mirror, Daily Mail and individuals like David Maddock, Oliver Holt, Martin Lipton, Martin Samuel, Henry Winter, James Lawton, Patrick Barclay and others. A media that includes Talksport and Sky. A football establishment that includes the FA, Alex Ferguson and his cabal of lackeys known as the LMA, Gordon Taylor. Reconciliation across the board with people like that? I have to think that’s impossible without fundamentally changing who we are. We certainly won’t be met halfway, that’s for sure. Already Ferguson has apparently dismissed the idea of talks between the two clubs. Meanwhile, the press have appeared arrogantly unwilling to cede the moral high ground to which they scurried on 20 December.  Obviously the likes of Kick It Out, FARE and others should continue to be embraced, but that’s just it – continue to be embraced. People are acting as though the work done by the club in the past in the fight against racism suddenly counts for nothing. I understand why the likes of Herman Ouseley and Piara Powar (and individuals likes Paul McGrath and Jason Roberts) are so outspoken on this issue. I’m a white man who lives in his own country, a predominantly white one. I’m lucky in that I have never had to deal with racism or discrimination of any kind and I feel 100% empathy with anyone who has. Yet some of their comments have been damaging to this whole process, especially for men in their position. They talk about the responsibilities of Liverpool and Kenny Dalglish, but what about theirs?

If we accept that it behoves the club to reach out, build bridges, talk to the media more, become more intimate with the FA and everything else, then do we have to do all the work? Does the media hysteria seen in the last couple of weeks (which has generally included only one side of the story and been framed with headlines of “RACIST”) and the poor investigation carried out by the FA’s Commission in the first place not hurt this process too? Liverpool F.C. feels aggrieved – anyone who reads the FA Commission report with an open mind will see why – so is it really all on the club to just swallow that, go to the FA, say we’re sorry that our statement said anything bad about you, please forgive us, then go back to Anfield and wait for the next incident that screws the club (e.g. how many other players, besides Mascherano and Torres, were punished because of the Respect Campaign, and was Suárez’s recent one-game ban for an obscene gesture consistent with Wayne Rooney and Ashley Cole’s previous ban of no games for the same offence?), or should the FA instead realise that one of their clubs is unhappy and reach out too in the spirit of reconciliation, realising that a process where the “guilty” have no right to appeal the verdict, only the severity of the punishment, is inherently wrong? Should individuals like Maddock and entities like the Daily Mirror and others not realise, hey, maybe we’re being a bit too hard on the club, maybe that headline of “RACIST” was out of order and we should go to them and apologise rather than burying some half-arsed excuse deep within our website?

If this is all on the club, then we either fundamentally change who we are or this process of reconciliation is doomed from the start. By all means we should bend, but no way should we break. At times like this, you need someone to lead the way. You need what I spoke about back in the first paragraph of this piece - leadership, strength. Nothing illustrates to me that we have the right man at the helm in Kenny Dalglish more than the level of vitriol which has been thrown in his direction over the past week by those aforementioned entities of “middle England” and “the establishment,” two entities who have not been friendly to the club historically. One particularly repugnant piece even reminded the reader that “Dalglish is not a racist. Nobody should be allowed to believe that he is”. Who the fuck suggested he was?! These entities, the ones that we’re charged with reaching out to, want Dalglish gone, maybe replaced with Roy Hodgson again (if he’d still have us, maybe if we beg?) or maybe Martin O’Neill (whose return to management, Henry Winter recently told us, “has been greeted with street parties, certainly a Fleet Street party”). They want us to be nice and compliant, and that’s all they want. There is no meeting us halfway on this, and we need to remember that. It is ultimately on the club and its hierarchy to decide how they go about doing dealing with these people from here on out, but one thing is for sure, none of them like that Dalglish and the club have not gone grovelling to them, begging forgiveness like some beaten-down housewife apologising for causing her husband to hit her. As supporters, our job is easier. All we need to do is ask “who do we trust,” remember that Liverpool have “never sought middle England’s approval before,” and keep in mind that nobody understands who we are (city and club) more than Kenny Dalglish.

And then support.

[shanklyboyslittlegirl]

Hi everyone,

I know this post might be completely irrelevant to your discussion but I thought I would take a chance in writing this. My Dad is Ray Osborne, or as you all know him (Shanklyboy), and it's coming up his anniversary on the 3rd of Feb. We are scattering his ashes at Anfield on the 21st of Feb and my Mum has told me that some RAWK members will be coming along on the day, which we are so touched and amazed by. The next home match after this is the derby, so I was just wondering if anybody knew how I would get my hands on some tickets if possible? I know it's near impossible but I just thought I'd try, as I would love to be at Anfield with him after that day. Any help would really be appreciated. Thanks, Lucy  (Shanklyboyslittlegirl)

[JP-65]

Just FYI, that is the CC Final, and hopefully, we'll be playing at Wembley that day

PS We miss your dad loads on here.

[royhendo]

I'll second that. I think we'd all like to make sure Ray's memory is honoured appropriately on the weekend though.

Can we take the reins and arrange some banners. We'll make the final. We all know that I think.

[mercury]

Really thankful for this thread, especially for someone who's been out of the loop for the past couple of months.

YNWA

[Rafa_La]

Yes, a bad day at Anfield. But a good summary evertheless 

Just back. Took some time to reflect in the pub after the game.

Very surprised by the overall mood there, but it's worse here, perhaps unsurprisingly.
1. I don't understand anyone who even mentions the face rubber in the same breath as KK. They cannot be fans of this club.
2. I don't understand the lack of respect, patience or faith in the current regime.
3. I don't understand the lack of understanding of the bigger picture.
4. We were shit today. There have not been many days this season we can say that.
5. We are very close to winning our first trophy in several years. I don't understand how this isn't an overall sign of progress.
6. I don't understand how people can look at the past with such blinkered views, using skewed facts and personnel to justify their vicious attacks on the present.
7. And finally, I don't understand the fuckers who use a poor result or performance to instantly shit on our playing and coaching staff from a great height. It cannot be right that these threads are half the length when we win.

Use your pent up aggression and energy to get twenty people you know to sign the petition ffs. It would be much better served that way.

[Terry de Niro]

Thought I'd pop this in here. Superb post..

If you thought the only poison we've had at this club was those two yanks, then think again.

If you thought that the only spirit of division at this club was opined during the latter days of Rafa, then think again.

There's still plenty of poison and an ingrained sense of division in the fan-base itself, and it's only a matter of time and circumstance before this becomes utterly manifest.

If victories and success transpire in Kenny's second reign, then this poison and division will be masked for a spell, but give it enough time....and it WILL reveal itself.

Face it folks.....there now exists another generation of football 'supporter' and they are all indistinguishable by anything other than the colour of the scarf around their neck. They've bought into the modern day success ethos hook, line and sinker. They are critical, impatient and believe that football clubs ought to be run like corporate enterprises wherein under-performance requires immediate dismissal and replacement by somebody else with a more suitable C.V.

They rely on red-top rags and television journalists as their sole source of information and their opinions are very easily manipulated by them. They haven't the slightest clue that these outlets play ALL of the footballing fan-bases like fiddles, and deep down....they probably don't really GET why Kenny behaves the way he does with journalists, because in their narrow, blinkered mind....Kenny SHOULD be held to account by the journalists.

These 'supporters' feel that way because it's the journalists [not Kenny]...who ultimately represent and epitomise the true nature of their own brand of fickle 'support.'

And do you know what?

Kenny's current tenure will come to an end at some stage, and whenever it does....this great club of mine will eventually become swamped and over-ridden with this modern brand of football 'supporter.'

When this time comes, I will be happy to rescind my own emotional investment in this club and let the 'whoppers' have it all to themselves.

There may come a time when L.F.C s historical success formula becomes so distant and so alien to the modern supporter.....that they'll be left scratching their arses....wondering where it all went wrong.

How did THIS:



Eventually turn into THIS:




I genuinely hope that Kenny and this club's more seasoned supporters enjoy a golden 'autumn' together....and that it's marked by a couple of memorable successes. I hope for this more than anything in the world.

However....

Whether this occurs or not, I just know that the identity of this club has changed, and that the powerful spirit that was once at it's beating heart has begun to fade out on the terraces.

Those who have faith in Kenny have got nothing whatsoever to prove to those whose faith is transient, shaky and volatile.

It's the modern generation of 'supporters' who will have to prove that their brand of support is capable of outperforming the older brand.

This is what is really at stake here, and the lessons which need learning could be very painful.

There are some  who genuinely worry that a segment of the fan-base would follow Kenny into hell-fire and damnation if needs be....

Well this 'fan' would....

I might moan a bit about the heat and the discomfort.....but I'd still follow him.


 

[Hinesy]

Great post Terry, thanks for re-posting it here.

[deadlybuzz]

Second that hinsey. Great find Terry.

[ReeNah]

Indeed. I'm a new supporter but I've supported my rugby team for many a year with all my heart. Honestly found it hard to support another team (even if it's another sport) but LFC has stolen my heart...

ReeNah

[Pheeny]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/19149

[Hinesy]

Second that hinsey. Great find Terry.

no worries daedlybzzu

[Aristotle]

Steven Gerrard is the most talented Liverpool player I have seen play for Liverpool, as Al refers to him 'a once in a lifetime player'.

I'm in no position to say 'he is the greatest of all time', so I defer to the knowledge of those who have been able to see Kenny Dalglish, John Barnes, Graeme Souness, Billy Liddell in the flesh rather than just scoring iconic goals or playing in iconic matches as I have. I do however believe that the fact he is mentioned in the same breath as these fated Liverpool names ought to be praise enough for a man who has come up through the Liverpool ranks and has supported this Club.

Though, I was once told on RAWK that I was being disrespectful to Steven Gerrard for referring to him as 'one of the greatest players of all time'. Make of that what you will. And it is a great shame that if his career ended tomorrow he would be without a league title. Lets remember that in the summer hewas a 31 year old midfielder with a recent injury record that made Daniel Agger look as though he was made of brick and that we didn't know if he would come back and certainly were in no position to assume he would be the same Steven Gerrard who but for a cameo against Napoli, hadn't looked the player who was drawing the comparisons to Liverpool greats for almost two years.

But here is the thing I will never get;
That we owe him a league championship, or that we owe any player, anything.
Yes, Steven Gerrard's Liverpool career is worthy of a title, of course it is. He has been a superb player and has performed incredibly, starring on many great nights and in many great journeys as we have enjoyed incredible successes.

But there is something far different to the wat Steven Gerrard is judged to the way the other great Liverpool players have been. Case in point: John Aldridge was on the radio this weekend and he said he believes that Steven Gerrard is the greatest Liverpool player. High praise. And fair enough, if that is how he feels, not many could be argued to be better, and not many would argue with that. But then he provides his rationale. And it isn't Istanbul, or the FA Cup, that he is technically incredible, scored superb goals. It is because Kenny Dalglish had ten world class players every time he stepped out on the pitch in a Liverpool shirt (something I'm sure would be argued) and Steven Gerrard has had to 'put up' with, and I quote 'garbage'.

Now that is bollocks. It makes Liverpool looks smalltime. It belittles the incredible achievements we have had, we Liverpool Football Club have had while Steven Gerrard has been a Liverpool player. It belittles the players he has worked alongside, whom he has creditted as helping him, who have been phenomenal servants, even legends to our Club. And all because there has developed this bizarre desire when talking about Steven Gerrard and creditting him for the wonderful footballer that he has been to dismiss everyone and everything else.

Aldridge's comments made all the more ludicrous when said ahead of the Stoke City match, where Dietmar Hamann and Sami Hyypia were both in attendance. Two giants of Liverpool FC's recent history. Two men, without whom Steven Gerrard would not have enjoyed such great success, and more importantly without whom Liverpool FC would not.
Above and beyond this, Steven Gerrard hasn't had to put up with anything. Liverpool has. Liverpool has had to 'put up' with Sean Dundee, with Salif Diao, with Andriy Voronin, with Paul Konchesky, and (with the to be determined Kenny II signing), amongst others over the years because Liverpool is not the same Club as it was when Kenny was playing or managing the first time around.

Football is different. Football hasn't been about football in a long time. No, it is about finance, sponsorship, global branding, revenue. Can you imagine if internet forums were knocking around in the 70's people giving a damn what advertising manager of Crown Paints had said after we signed the deal with Candy? And with the advent of the Premier League we have been left behind, we failed to keep up with the pace set by Manchester United, both in terms of the aforementioned unpleasant facets of the modern game and because we have been our own worst enemy. Poorly  managed, backwards looking, inward looking. The biggest example of this is that  we've had a new ground to sort out since all seated stadia became mandatory, we've dragged our heels for eighteen years.

We had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Gerard Houllier revolutionised Melwood and the way we ran as a football Club, but he had to do that through a series of comprimises because those in charge were unwilling to commit to change. Rather than just saying to Roy Evans we are going to try something else, bring fresh methods and ideas because yours are no longer working, but thank you for eveything you have done, they wasted a year with 'joint managers', something that was never going to work.

They wouldn't commit, they couldn't be bold, they didn't have enough bottle to do it outright. From a Club that opposed sentimentality at all costs under Bob Paisley and his mantra of letting ageing players become someone elses problem to not letting a manager go incase it offended him. That is why we have been unsuccesful. Because we have been sentimental. Have looked backwards rather than forwards.

And when they finally did make a bold decision, they got it so cataclysmically wrong that the Club were flung back to square one, wiping out all the hard work that Gerard and his successor had fought tooth and nail, against the odds, to achieve. Though why we would be surprised? As in modern football, where all that sponsorship, revenue, global marketing is so vitally important we had a Chief Executive who thought seven and a half million pounds off Carlsberg for sticking their name on the front of one of the most presitigous football shirts in the world was excellent value. And that building a carbon copy of Bolton's Reebok Arena was good enough for Liverpool FC.

And when that kind of ineptitude, small minded thinking is rife in the boardroom, managers are left with little to play with. Gerard was parading Salif Diao around Anfield in 2002 for five million pounds, Ferguson was wondering what exactly to do with Juan Sebastin Veron who had done little to justify six times that fee the year before. My argument here is not that Diao wasn't a bad signing, but that Liverpool couldn't afford to make them, while our 'rivals' could fuck up, big time and still win the league come May.

The problems have started in the boardroom, effected the management, and resulted in far less success than we would have liked. And in this time, while our Club has aimed small, our supporters followed suit, with little in the way of success, as a collective they've clung onto Steven Gerrard, they've put him up onto a pedastal, and similarly have gone into overdrive with the adoration of the likes of Fernando Torres, and if we aren't careful Luis Suarez.

The strange thing being that in doing so, it is rare his qualities have been overstated, rather it has manifested itself in this strange need to understate the ability of others, to the point when they are disparaging an entire squad and belittling quality footballers to make a point about how wonderful the captain is. In the summer, the much lambasted Al, myself, and others were banging on about how Liverpool have to prepare for life after Steven Gerrard. Even while we have Steven Gerrard. That we have to look to build a squad that can function without him, and is merely enhanced by his presence, not saved. People were having fits. I was told Steven Gerrard 'pisses all over the rest of the squad', which is quite a feat considering he was also 'limping into the side' to do so. Yes, Steven Gerrard 'pisses all over' a squad with Internationals representing the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Uruguay, and Brazil. Pissing all over those World Cup winning goalkeepers and Copa America champions.

He won the European Cup on his own as well. Nothing to do with the finest defender to represent us for twenty years in the shape of Big Sami, or Carragher's last ditch heroics. Don't mentioned the man who came from Barca and brought us the joy of scoring in every round of the knock out phase. Nor was it to do with the magic of Xabi Alonso, the influence of Dietmer Hamann, or the unparrallelled tactics of Rafael Benitez. The same applied to the FA Cup the following year, apparently.

Here is the thing, I love Steven Gerrard. I love him for the goal against Charlton when he cut in from the edge of the box, for Olympiakos, for that headed goal. I love him for his impossible strike vs. Marseilles, for his hattrick against Napoli. The bruises I got from falling down two rows of seats in Cardiff in 2006, twice were more than worth it. I love him for that stamp on Gary Naysmith even though it makes me a bad person for doing so, I love him for that week we battered both Real Madrid and Manchester United. He is an incredible footballer, who has brought immense joy to anyone with Liverpool in their hearts. But he hasn't 'put up' with anything. While he has dragged us to victory on dozens of occasions, and while with one swing of his right foot he has saved the day more times than I can remember. He has never carried Sami Hyypia, or Didi Hamann, or Xabi Alonso, or Fernando Torres, though together he has helped make up for the presence of Djimi Traore, Igor Biscan, and Robbie Keane.

This notion that we owe him anything is farcical, he should consider himself very fortunate to play for Liverpool and I am sure he does. While he has been a phenomenal player he has been given second and third chances after flirting with other Clubs and for mentally putting himself on a plane to the World Cup in January, too. This Football Club has stood by Steven Gerrard through a court case, made him a millionaire many times over, we have opened every possible door for him.This Club has afforded him the honour of playing for Liverpool FC, the Kop the honour of having his name sung, he is an extremely lucky young man.

We as a Club haven't looked big for a long time, we've been all too happy to settle for second best, we haven't been winners, we need to do that, and the only way we can do that is by looking at the Club first, and the individual second. So, please can we put to bed the notion of Steven Gerrard needing a league title, we need one, Liverpool FC and hopefully he will be there to lift it.

Kinda jealous I didn't write it myself to be honest

[Fiasco]

One of the best posts I've read on here in a very long time that.

[Hazell]

Kinda jealous I didn't write it myself to be honest

Seconded. Excellent post that.

[rbagg10]

Nail in the head...........

especially on this one

"And when that kind of ineptitude, small minded thinking is rife in the boardroom, managers are left with little to play with. Gerard was parading Salif Diao around Anfield in 2002 for five million pounds, Ferguson was wondering what exactly to do with Juan Sebastin Veron who had done little to justify six times that fee the year before. My argument here is not that Diao wasn't a bad signing, but that Liverpool couldn't afford to make them, while our 'rivals' could fuck up, big time and still win the league come May."

[Geppvindh's]

The rare visit I make to the transfer forum, someone makes sense.

The Hernandez argument is interesting.  I think he is a good player if perhaps a little blown up after his first season.  But the thing you have to understand about him is that he has come into probably the most established playing style in the league.  United know what they are doing and tweak things here and there because they have had continuity.  So it's easier for them to integrate a player like that.  Just like they moved on RVN and replaced him with Ronaldo and Rooney.

If we are going after a poacher type striker purely because we need goals, then I think we are looking at the problem all wrong.  Some people seem to think that Dalglish is caught between two styles of play, but I think at the core he is a pass and move manager.  He wants his sides to get the ball down and pass.  That's why we continue to build from the back, even under immense pressure.  I like that.

I also think that is the reason why we have created so many chances.  It's because we cut through teams instead of playing to their strengths.  We have looked disjointed at times but hey most of the lads are new to the club/team and 3 of our best players have been missing for large chunks of the season (Lucas, Gerrard, Suarez).  It will have an affect.  It's also why Andy Carroll has struggled.  He is a specialist player, but one with time on his side and the tools to become an absolute monster.  I'd stick it out with him if he wants to stay here and compete for trophies.  Too many footballers want an easy life with good wages, just enough to afford that empty trophy cabinet at the of their careers.

I don't think specialist players are the right way forward.  Sacchi was onto something all those years back when he criticised Real for fielding such players, no matter how good.

Long live the generalist!

[royhendo]

"They have got to be professional not playboys or fly-by-nights. I am talking about the attitude. The players seem to be saying sorry and think it's over and done with. They will have to change their attitude." - Uncle Bob after losing 2-0 at Ipswich, 81/82 season.

Team: Grobbelaar, Neal, Kennedy, Thompson, Kennedy, Hansen, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson, McDermott, Souness. Sub: Johnston on for McDermott.

No shortage of leaders on the pitch, rocket still launched. Uncle Bob also had a pop at the supporters that season for being too complacent. Canny man Uncle Bob and Kenny seems to be following his playbook.

[RAWK Meltdown #1]

Quote from: Zeb on Yesterday at 10:05:44 PM

A pertinent and somewhat reassuring sound-bite from the past, and in the wake of recent concerns....I'd like to express sincere gratitude for it's addition to this thread.

[Which is now becoming a must read affair for me, whenever I log on to the site..]

[Arcadian]

Congratulations MLR you made my day... Hopefully a few others will appreciate your wordsmithery.

"I have no problem being completely blinded by the legend and romanticism of Dalglish. Frankly, if I weren't, I'd have to wonder why I supported the club. But all of that aside, managers used to be given a good amount of time to put together what they were building. And really, football hasn't changed, it's only the people watching it that has.

And anyways, two years ago if someone told me Dalglish was coming back as manager and we were going to give him £100m and he was going to blow the lot on silver platters of charlie and escorts from Surinam, I'd have replied, "yeah, but Kenny's going to be our manager."

When I talk to people who feel different, by the point in the conversation that I realise they don't feel like me, the length of that conversation has already exceeded my interest in it.

He's Kenny. He may not be bigger than the club, but he was big enough to carry it on his shoulders. All this Twitter-age shit about "Kenny's not immune from criticism" and "Kenny's not untouchable" is for the birds. Yes, he fucking is, actually. The sheer tonnage of what that man did on and off the pitch for our club would stop a million-head herd of buffalo in its tracks and amounts to more than everything all the c*nts in the Twitterverse have ever contributed in their lives. So they get to shut the fuck up, and he gets to manage our club. Because if the time comes when he isn't the man for the job anymore, then who am I going to trust to realise that? Mr Kenneth Dalglish himself, or some c*nt on the internet?

We're Liverpool Football Club. Fucking sort yourselves out. "

[Danyaals Kop]

Good find.

[hesbighesred]

Short but sweet - you'll never see a more succinct summing up of 'forum life':

We're a bunch of daft bastards really, no?

a. We all love the club.
b. If it was a result of better players coming in, we'd happily see Gerrard and Suarez starting on the bench, let alone Adam.
c. We have our favourites and others we don't like so much.
d. We come on forums like this, forget points a and b, and based on c. tear each other apart based on shite that doesn't really make a blind bit of difference.

But it's a laugh eh? Forums give us the cosy illusion that our opinion actually counts for something, instead of being a load of old bum wipe. Beats working anyway.

[JP-65]

Short but sweet - you'll never see a more succinct summing up of 'forum life':

Ha, ha Roy.  Was having drinks with Tony Evans tonight discussing the same. 

Seb, you've got to join us sometime!

[Rafa_La]

Firstly I guess I had better introduce myself, my name is Kev, I am 38 yrs old (I am not sure if I qualify as an ‘auld arse’? anyway, my uncle was Ray Osborne (Shanklyboy) It’s been almost 1 year since Ray passed away in feb 2011.
I never knew how involved Ray was with RAWK until after he had left us, I started reading his posts and couldn’t believe what a huge part of his life it was. Its took a while for me to start reading his posts in the Auld Arses thread, I have spent the last couple of weeks both crying and laughing at some of the stuff he has put on here. I don’t know how many of you knew Ray on a personnel level? Ray personified the term family man; he doted on his wife and kids and was utterly proud of them, like most of us his family were his world.
As you all already know , Ray lived and breathed Liverpool Football Club, the man epitomised the term ‘Kopite’ Rays love for the club transcended 5 decades, my auld fella started taking him when he was 8 and from that day they never stopped going to the match, home, away and abroad. Most of the stories about their experiences are present in this thread! Although i am pretty sure there are a lot that have never been told!
Ray and my Dad started to take me to the match when I was a kid, by then they where Kop stalwarts, I can remember being shoved in a queue for kids and OAP’s, it was 90p I think. Ray never let me out of his sight in the Kop, it always amazed me how we found our way to same place every time, i always sat on the same piece of bar, there was a dent on it so i knew where my spec was, our Ray always stood behind me and some auld boy stood in front of me, our ray was a big man, 6ft3 and 15 stone in his prime, between them they made sure i never fell off, i even perfected the art of accurate pissin without havin to get off the bar.
Ray was a fuckin nightmare to argue with when it came to footy! You had to bring your A game if you wanted to win, as i am sure many on RAWK have found out to their detriment!
On boxing day last year, (only weeks before he got sick) we were at my ma’s house having a proper family chrimbo and my brother in law made the bold statement “Dirk Kuyt is shit!!!!” i had to go and watch Eastenders with all the women because i knew what was about to unfold!! 3 hours later after much deliberation my brother in law came in looking pale and said “he is fuckin brill that Dirk Kuyt”
Anyway, i was at the city game on Wednesday, sat in the main stand and i was looking at the Kop and i knew it was Ray’s utopia and that a small part of him would always be there.
Rays love for Liverpool stunned me, my last conversation amazed me, i went to see him in the Royal with my auld fella, Ray was heavily reliant on oxygen at that time, it was just after a derby (i think) we walked in and sat with him, he was sleeping, he opened his eyes and looked at us both, he took his oxygen mask off, coughed and wheezed for a bit and then whispered “what was Reiner’s distribution like” me and my auld fella were in bulk, ironically enough Reiner’s distribution had been spot on, Ray was made up. That was the last time i spoke with him and suitably enough it was about Liverpool FC.
I Know a few of you might be at the ground to remember Ray in February, it will be a pleasure to have a pint with you.

YNWA

R.I.P. Ray, always missed.

[Xabisfeet]

As for facts in the Suarez case,this post deserves to be here.

Completely lost interest in the complexities of the LS / PV case and thus have never seen this video before.  The PV theatrics at 1.15? are pathetic and illustrate perfectly an aspect of professional football that is repulsive

[royhendo]

[Arcadian]

Ha! Priceless find!!!

[Hinesy]

ha ha, that's brilliant.

[Terry de Niro]

Just spotted this in the Mourinho to who? thread in the General Football and Sport forum.
Excellent post..

Didn't say he is the devil, but allow me to expand on my point.

See I am not from Liverpool, I am not from the North-West, I am not from England, not from the UK or even Europe for that matter. There is probably no reason whatsoever why I should back Liverpool and ditch weddings, gatherings, parties to watch the match on the weekend. There's no reason why I should shed tears when we won in Istanbul or lost in Athens, jumped in the air in 06, felt pride in beating the cream of Europe at Anfield year after year after year. It sure wasn't for the trophies or the glory or the money or the players even. If I wanted to gloat about trophies won, I would've jumped on the Manc bandwagon in the 90s like most around me did, or the Chelsea bandwagon, or the Gunners, or the Spanish giants. Supporting Liverpool Football Club means something to me, even though I've never been to the city, its familiar, a lefty, socialist, liberal mindframe that sits well with me. When I read Bill Shankly's quote, "the socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life", it resonated with me and I thought I found my club.

If my memory serves me right, Jose and Rafa were considered for the job and in my humble opinion, the job went to the right man. The way I see it, there's very little difference between the two men as far as the football is concerned but a gulf as wide as the Pacific ocean when it comes down to personality. Rafa could've easily done what Jose did and walked out in 05 on a high, or in 07 when he was considered among the top three, and had beaten Jose twice in the semi final. He had options, offered huge contracts, and if he had only played the media right, politicked, he could've jumped from one job to another, from one war chest to another and raked up trophies. But the soft bastard didn't, he stuck with us, because he felt compelled to fight for the club against the two c*nts.

And now we are in 2012, survived the Hodge Podge, survived Purslow, survived the owners, survived bankruptcy, and have Kenny Dalglish at the helm. Things are finally beginning to look better again, and when I read posts suggesting that we need to win a trophy and we need to win it now even if it means giving Jose the job, I feel the urge to shake my head. Maybe I'm an idiot or a stupid idealist, but I think LFC deserves better than that.

Disclaimer: I'm no super fan, I was 8 when Kenny left the job in 91, all I know about the man is what I've seen in documentaries or read on this site, so I don't feel the connection the auld arses do. But I am willing to sit back and enjoy the ride. I don't care if trophies are won or not, but it feels right.

[No666]

The media things been messing with my head lately. I’ve been trying to get my head round it.

Liverpool are the 2nd largest club in the country with the most passionate fan base. This means as a media target they have appeal. The media can keep the majority onside whilst at the same time showing bias and engaging a large group who can keep the interest level high.

Liverpool do not fit the comfortable middle class entertainment mould as per United, Chelsea, Arsenal and new age City.  Our fans are still largely of working class roots, with chips on both shoulders,  making no apology for neither being middle class or from London nor for  failing to feel second class because they live off the main branch line from Crewe, a poor noisy northern provincial state that should know its place in history and stay there. They are also therefore not Sky’s prime target audience. Although as the footballer of the year poll showed LFC fans do have a loud voice, funny how Sky made so little of that particular title.

The history and tradition of Liverpool cannot be simply written off as the media would dearly wish because despite 20 years of not winning the title. Its fan base is still as large as ever. It’s a powder keg ready to explode, a true sleeping giant, so big that even in its slumber, its snores rock the game.

The fact that LFC fans are only slowly becoming the homogenised modern supporter – driven by Sky and the media rather than their own beliefs, is a testament not so much to the power of the modern media as to the force of will of the mass of that support that remain true to certain beliefs. The Rafa debate was synonymous with that – the media simply could not believe that the majority of Liverpool supporters stayed loyal to Benitez despite the media’s best endeavours for 4 years to turn opinion against him. Their lack of understanding became our fault, it was the Liverpool fans who’d been hoodwinked, had the wool pulled over their eyes by a Svengali like Benitez with his evil foriegn ways. It was inconceivable that the media were somehow at fault, that zonal marking and rotation were the future, that their collective wisdom had failed to see the reality of the situation.

The perfect storm of Hicks and Gillets underinvestment and Rafa’s own disillusionment and the rise of Spurs and City gifted them their prize. Even then the fans rejection of Hodgson was scorned – despite the worst campaign in 50 years, despite a terrible ignorance of what Liverpool stood for in painful press conference after grotesque interview, despite humiliation by Northampton and Everton, the fans who had stayed loyal to a manger for 6 years were suddenly portrayed as lacking patience and understanding. And then in yet another twist of the knife it was never Roys fault, the fans never gave him a chance because they always wanted Kenny. This was crass in the extreme, a deliberate contrivance to steer clear of the most obvious fact that Hodgson their friend was not up to the task, just as he had not been at Blackburn or Inter. Roy never got the chance to see us relegated its true but he came painfully close.

That’s how unprincipled, self serving and myopic the media are. They see it their way and only their way. Their way is publicity little else. It’s no longer about news, opinion sells and popular opinion and controversy sell best.  LFC have long been a meal ticket for most to score easy points whether because of our massive achievements or massive under-achievements either serves.

Ironically though Liverpool fans’ lack of respect for the establishment has probably never been stronger. The FA have always been tolerated, the England team a distraction except for the reds in their ranks, the media blinkered to all but their Manchester and London homeland,. Nowadays in a society were respect is a forgotten word this is one tradition that all Liverpool fans can get behind.

I have no doubt that the establishment would wish to see Liverpool simply disappear – both as a City and a football club. It’s never sat comfortably with their world view. The City has never tugged a forelock or bent a knee. The support they believe would simply move elsewhere and without a focus the people largely be neutered become part of the opium fed mass TV audience.

Liverpool would like to stand alone but it cannot, it needs friends and it needs help and on occasion it needs to swallow its pride and ask for it. I’m just not sure how that is going to happen and who we would ask in the current climate. The immediate reaction is to pull up the drawbridge and await a siege but I think without aid and succour from elsewhere that approach is doomed we’d simply be starved into surrender. We could perhaps be a rallying point for others but it’s a risky strategy and a lonely one and ultimately still needs others to succeed.

You can see the same narrow minded media thinking is happening now with Dalglish and Suarez. Not one thought has been spent on the idea that Dalglish may be right. That the case put forward by the FA was a sham. That the FA itself and its outdated nonsensical procedures are a sham. Why? Because that’s not the way Sky or the rest of the establishment works – they set the agenda and massages the facts to suit. Whats the angle, what the story from this game. As Gary Neville put it, he finds the hardest part of his media work is finding ‘the story’ from each game, finding the one thing that Sky can push for the next 24 hours before their next story. If people were ever going to wake up to how they are being manipulated then that simple honest statement should have rung alarm bells. The fact it didn’t shows clearly that the masses are complicit in their own ignorance, they prefer to be told what to think, than make their own minds up. It also explains the rise of such poor and ill informed punditry as we see in this country, the laughing stock of Europe.

Any divergence from the norm is either stamped upon ruthlessly if seen as a threat or ignored if not. The homogeneity of the planet is racing on and football is no different. Everything needs a convenient handle, to conform. We know this more than any other club. It’s no longer an issue of the right and wrong of the Suarez case, you could easily argue it never was. The FA needed a case to prove a point and one duly and conveniently emerged but the England Captain is not really a suitable target. No real winners in that one and too many questions. The FA have covered their tracks and pulled in their favours from the media, they’ve enlisted the pc brigade who like most evangelists I’ve ever met are amongst the least tolerant and least open minded people on the planet.  They’ve produce a 115 page justification of their view and because its 115 pages it must be right. Quantity not quality, the media believed it because they wanted to believe it, the anti racism campaigners likewise. Suarez was guilty as soon as he was acused.

For all of these reasons, as  a club we need to be more intelligent in our dealings with the outside world. There needs to be a battle for hearts and minds. We need ingenuity and creativity and those are things with which the city excels. We don’t need to set the media pack on another target because that just creates another victim – we need to get rid of the media pack in its current form completely.

I think FS has a point when he says we missed a trick – we clearly did – I can’t agree that Suarez should have admitted to saying what he was accused of though.  He clearly did not say it and to admit to having said it would far from diffusing the situation have poured fuel on it.  Given the sentence he did receive only a life time ban followed by hanging could have resulted. So little has been made of how the Evra story changed, that the original accusation was changed, so little attention has been paid to the few actual facts of the case and such hypocrisy has been played out between this and the John Terry case that there was clearly never ever any chance of a fair hearing for Suarez.

I have been most sickened by the lack of respect for individual rights shown by the anti racism campaigners far too keen to score points, to press ‘their’ own agenda. Those organisations have laudable goals but they have not been lived up to by those given the responsibility in this case. Perhaps another explanation of how this society works when organisations set up with the best principles have to compromise them to progress.

Liverpool needed the PFA onside not righteous indignation, it needed friends in the FA and it needed to get out a clear message from the off. It didn’t have or do those things. United played the game, the hyperbolic pc lobby played the game,  Ferguson pulled the strings and the media went along. It reminded me very much of the time of the Rafa rant.  There were no dissenting voices to ‘Rafa’s rant’ , everybody was in agreement with the facts he presented because they were facts. Rather than debate those however they decided to crucify the messenger. Why? Because it did not fit the media agenda, Rafa had come out with his own and the all powerful media could do nothing about Ferguson or his FA either. Not because they lacked the power but because ethey lacked the will. The media displayed their xenophobia and concentrated on what they do best a witch hunt of the easiest target. We are dealing with institutionalised widespread bias and we’ve run foul of it again. Suarez was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Friends aren’t going to be that easy to find. Those brave enough to takle on the media will be like Hen’s teeth.

One thing we can do to help ourselves is a degree of self policing – too many of our problems are own goals were passion runs into stupidity – we need to be harder on those people than anybody else would be.  At the City match some no mark started trying to sing a Shipman song, he was ‘silenced’ very quickly and that’s how it needs to be imo. That twitter nonsense yesterday with Barclay some of the stuff from Liverpool fans was disgusting.

We can’t let ‘hate’ be our mantra. We are portrayed as self pity City, as victims who love to wallow in our own mess and blame others. We can’t allow ourselves to be the victims we have to turn this into a positive and to do that we need a message and a way of delivering that message. ‘We ain’t racist, we only hate cats’ was a far far better song than our Manc. version although animal rights activists may have disagreed. We need to own how we are portrayed through our actions and take responsibility for those actions.

The Suarez handshake will be the next media circus. Only Suarez and Evra know what happened. Only they know if they can play a game of football without the past interfering – if they can’t, for whatever reason, then imo they shouldn’t play. The game is supposed to be played in a spirit of fair competition, adding to the wrongs will not make what has happened any better. So for me Evra and Suarez should either shake hands or not play. Of course if you take that to its conclusion none of the players on either side may want to play. Where would that leave us? All the handshake should be about is the game nothing else. An agreement that we play the game and move on.

Anyway me paranoia is showing and me brain is no clearer

[Terry de Niro]

I've just come in here to drop that very same post in here.
Fantastic stuff..

[INABITSKI]

Would have missed that otherwise, a great read.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

what a brilliant, brilliant post from Vulmea. Fucking brilliant!

[royhendo]

The Auld Arse thread - best on here by miles.

With the recent anniversary of Munich as well as our upcoming game in mind, I wanted to expand on something that Johnnowhite and I discussed a while ago after I just was in the Munich thread.

I remember my Grandad always telling me what a player that Duncan Edwards was. Obviously any loss of life is a terrible and tragic thing to all those who are associated but Duncan Edwards was always the one me Grandad talked about.

Captained England at 17, could dribble like a wizard and always seemed to have the ball on a string. Had the world literally at his feet and me Grandad was always quick to mention his manner and maturity for someone so young.

I pray that a lot of the new generation of football followers can read and appreciate that there is so much history and tradition between Liverpool Football Club and Manchester United Football Club rather than get dragged into the cesspool that is tit-for-tat insults, references to tragic times and using these for ridiculous oneupmanship.

For those who say "They call us murderers, give us shit about Hillsborough, brought an inflatable skeleton to Anfield wrapped in a scarf singing about Shankly etc etc", we were singing about Munich long before that ever happened... hence the "Where's your famous Munich chants?"

Shanks once said "Football is not a matter of life or death, it's so much more important than that."

His tongue was firmly in his cheek and he would never in a million years have predicted what was about to occur to his beloved football club over the course of the next 15-20 years (Heysel and Hillsborough)

Those eternal flames, those names you see etched outside the club forever to be remembered, lost their lives supporting the team they love.

Football was never meant to be about this. Football was always meant to be the game for the working class to put their lives and struggles to one side for a moment in time and enjoy life for a couple of hours.

I am not saying for a second to give up your passion, what I am asking for though is a bit of common sense.

Enough is enough.

Someone needs to be the bigger person. Put up their hand and say we're not having this anymore.

We can co-exist as clubs and supporters without the venomous hatred which is permeating more and more whenever this fixture rolls around.

The media love it. They pray for it. It gives them the headlines that they thrive on.

I lost a family member at Hillsborough. I was at Anfield for a couple of weeks after, not really knowing why I was continually going but happy once I got there as I felt a sense of belonging, like my soul needed to be here amongst the flowers, amongst the scarves, amongst the shirts, amongst the hand written notes, amongst the oranges left on the steps of the Kop because humanity help me overcome the grief and utter disbelief about what had just transpired.

There were plenty of Man U scarves and shirts scattered around Anfield during that time. 

Just as we extended a hand during their darkest hour, so too did they.

Because humanity should always overcome any prejudice, no matter shape or form that prejudice takes.

I am not saying we suddenly have to love them because that is never going to happen. We have a fierce rivalry that has been based not only on the successes on the football field but also because of other events which have occurred due to the proximity of the respective cities in trade etc.

I have been to Old Trafford, I have had the honour of darts being thrown at us, golf balls with nails in them, sharpened 20p pieces, the works.

But kicking their toilets in and spraying shit everywhere isn't going to do anything other than incite them to retaliate.

And what is going to come out of all this?? Nothing but bad.

When you were a kid you would get told to stop fucking around because someone will lose an eye. Well my fear is it could be greater than that if things keep going between the two clubs.

I feel for those who lost loved ones in Munich just as I feel the pain of Heysel and Hillsborough.

The longest journey always begins with the first step.

YNWA
JFT 96

P.S - I would much prefer the media focus of our upcoming game to be about a couple of fans trying to overcome the hatred as opposed to someone caught mimicking a monkey which then gets a weeks worth of attention...

[Aristotle]

A lot of people can't be arsed reading anything to do with the English NT so might've missed this one

The past few months have been disastrous even by the FA's standards. Their race to the bottom to try to outdo themselves is pushing the laws of physics hard with regard to terminal velocity. It's hard to write a worse path for an organisation to take yet they still manage it. In years to come, the Football Association will provide a fascinating case study in failure.

If this was a private organisation, they'd be out of business within months. If it was the government, it would bring about the collapse of the coalition. The FA lurch from crisis to crisis simply because they're not fit for purpose.

What's staggering isn't their ineptitude but their complete lack of responsibility. Every decision made seems to be a result of it being someone else's fault. What happened to the long term review of the FA that was going to result in an overhaul of the management and coaching of football and related organisation? What happened to the planned revamp of grassroots coaching and youth football?

I can't even be bothered comparing England to any other nation - it doesn't matter because ultimately there is one very simple concept that the FA either cannot or will not embrace - benchmarking. I'm sure that there's someone, somewhere at the FA who heard of it once and has a nice office where they get reports from all the associations with nice tick boxes and comment forms that enables them to commission a report every year that the FA can trumpet as their annual performance review then they host a black tie dinner to thank everyone for their service. I bet they haven't got a fucking idea what a benchmark is supposed to accomplish, though.
It's quite simple. You have a long term aim, call it a mission objective. This encompasses what you want to achieve and what sort of ideals it should encompass. Then you figure out what you need to do to get there. This is your roadmap. Feel free to bring in examples from other nations, cultures or organisations but (and this is one of the things that the FA haven't understood, as evidenced by the fact that every 5 years they point to a different example and go 'THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO COPY' - see: France/Holland/Spain/Germany) it should be directly relevant to your own organisation/body. If it's not, draw an analogy and EXPLAIN HOW THIS WILL TRANSLATE. It's pointless citing Spanish football as an example when they have different rules on youth coaching and a different league set up for B teams than us.

Once you know where you want to go and how you get there, the most crucial part is how you identify or measure your progress. There are loads of terms for these markers, depending on how you present it. Easiest way is to use Key Performance Indicators (KPIs), highlighting specific objectives that you could collect other stats under. So for example, to evaluate youth coaching you could outline what kind of drills kids should be able to perform (such as dribbling with the weaker foot, one touch passing, etc) and and what percentage of children playing can perform them. One of the biggest issues is getting your benchmark right - it has to be focused and it has to be something you can measure, so developing this is the most important stage at the beginning. If you have the right benchmarking tools, you can reuse them every year, every 6 months, every decade and you should be able to get the same data/information out of it, letting you compare and analyse the effects of your plans.
THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT OF THIS IS TO ADMIT WHERE THINGS HAVE GONE WRONG. I cannot emphasise that enough. It is not a backslapping exercise. If you say 'same again' at the end of it, the benchmark doesn't work. There is always room to improve, margin to grow. If you max out your benchmark, it's useless and you should bin it.
The mentality isn't supposed to blame anyone. The aim isn't to take it out on someone. It's simply to go 'right, this didn't work' or 'this could be tweaked' to benefit everyone. Again, if this were a government office or a business releasing a report saying 'yeah, everything's fine, no improvements can be made' they'd be slaughtered.

The best example I can think of is our youth set up. It's been besieged with problems for ages, regardless of where you stand on the causes. Rafa got control of it and didn't care, he just made the changes he thought were necessary and that was it. He didn't take it personally, he didn't attach any ego to it. I mean, one of the first things he did when he got full control is bring Kenny back. He worked with the club and worked with the youngsters. He brought in coaches who knew more than him about youth coaching. He didn't care about feeling threatened by someone with more expertise or someone with more gravitas at the club. He got who he thought were the best people available and set them to work. Even though it's a long term plan, look at the current results - our youth side is currently performing far better than they have in ages. Kenny slotted straight back into management and knew the youngsters straight off and knew how to introduce them to the first team, how to rely on them. Rafa might not be our manager any more but it had nothing to do with the youth coaching. It's a football man making football decisions and bringing other football men in.

Contrast that with the FA. They can't even seamlessly go from one manager to another. Rafa and Kenny may have different managerial styles but Hodgson's ill fated tenure aside, it was hardly a radical overhaul. Most of the players Kenny relied on were Rafa players and apart from Suarez, the main players in the squad still are. That's continuity and it shows that there's some semblance of a plan - even with the change in ownership and structure at the club.

The FA employ all these people and haven't got a clue what to do with them. What's Pearce's job? He doesn't play the U21s the same way as the senior side, he doesn't bring through youngsters to give them international experience or try different things out. What's Southgate's job? Who picks the manager and based on what criteria?

They refuse to accept any sort of responsibility, so why should they be in charge? Wembley was a vanity project out of touch with reality. The captaincy is an issue mishandled ever since Beckham got it full time. They can't be trusted to run football in any sort of capacity because they can't make a single decision for the benefit of the sport or the country.
Now we've got David Cameron weighing in with his opinion on the England manager's position. This is utterly ridiculous and why I couldn't give two shits about the FA, England or any of the shitty establishment.

And they wonder why we backed Suarez over them.

[Big Red Richie]

AWT's going to be getting his own fan club soon, me thinks.

I don't need to describe what happened. Frankly, I don't want to. I don't care. Really, I don't. I have better things to do with my life. I have assignments and studying to do, I probably need to go do some shopping later, maybe catch up with my family and see how they're getting on. My little sister's growing up, bless her. Doing her GCSEs.
In the world of football, there are more pressing matters. Does Stewart Downing have the mental fortitude to be a Liverpool player? Do we face another summer of transition and rebuilding? What will happen with the new stadium?
Even more important, what's happening with the coalition? Will they force through the NHS reform bill that everyone is opposed to? How will the chancellor propose to combat shrinking growth and unemployment? Is the country going to prosper in the next few decades and will we have the infrastructure to allow for that growth, if we're not investing now?

If you look at the news, you'd think that Luis Suarez killed Whitney Houston. Throughout history, there have been handshakes that resonated around the world. Genuinely important moments like the Middle Eastern peace process, when a handshake means a lot more than just two people agreeing or greeting each other. I'm sure you could spend an afternoon listing sporting handshakes that genuinely had a lasting impact but you would be hard pushed to justify the furore over yesterday's non-event.
Everyone remembers the fiasco between John Terry and Wayne Bridge but no one cares about it any more. No one brings it up and it would've probably be consigned to a Rory McGrath bloopers DVD available at every store of Poundland if it wasn't for yesterday.

The media, the fans and to a small extent the club are completely missing the point when trying to dissect who's at fault for the situation. It really doesn't matter, it's a fucking handshake designed to allow the Premier League to stamp more copyrighted material over their 'product'. That's what the anthem and the sign is for. So I don't care.

What I do care about is how racism has completely devolved into a political issue rather than a social cause. The head of FARE, Piara Powar, abuses a Liverpool fan on Twitter due to his ethnicity. Let me repeat: The head of an organisation tasked with fighting racism in football abuses a fan for his opinion, referring to his ethnicity. By Evra's own admission, he refers to Suarez' origin. Seemingly neither are in the wrong. Alex Ferguson and Gordon Taylor repeatedly refer to racism as being against 'black players'. Is that what it comes to? Is it only racist if you're abusing someone who is black?
The complete failure to address the cause looks to have roused a wave of people too stupid to be trusted to tie their own shoelaces in using racist language as a sort of anti-establishment movement, just like the copycat riots of last year. That too was a result of an inability of authorities to respond to an initial situation that - rightly or wrongly - had erupted and needed to be nipped in the bud. Instead, they stuck their heads in the sand until it was too late and all they could seemingly do was wait for the fire to burn itself out - sometimes literally.

John Barnes put it best when he said that 'we are not the custodians of moral values in the world'. Why are two football clubs expected to enact social change? Where are the equality organisations? Where is the FA? Where is the culture secretary, aside from casting ill advised opinions on Suarez despite the company he keeps? It doesn't have to be a tribal cause whatsoever. In fact, the FA should've been proactive and say 'look, no club is being singled out here, we just want to remind players, staff and fans about what is legal and what is acceptable in this country'. There was a real chance for organisations that do not get much attention to step forward and say 'we have contacted the clubs of the Premier League and will be running these programmes to promote racial equality in sport and in society'. The government, much maligned and derided, could've used it as an opportunity to really nullify anti-immigrant feeling by reminding the country how the sport - and nation - benefits from having a multi-cultural flavour.

Instead it's been an exercise in queuing up to take a pop at Suarez, the club and bask in the 'superiority' of English football. Instead, we've got fans and members of the press using it as a point scoring exercise, even dredging up Heysel once again, in an attempt to glean moral superiority. And instead we've got Alex Ferguson telling us what to do.

Fuck off. Seriously, just fuck off. For all the flack the club, the player and Kenny have gotten, not a single institution has offered us any sort of assistance or a path of reconciliation. Instead, Ferguson said 'there's no need to do anything' before hastily changing his mind before an unexpected return to Anfield. The FA and other organisations seem to feel that the fight against racism is as complex as saying BAD DOG, BAD DOG. The press lecture is repeatedly lacking in awareness of the xenophobia attached to their posturing. We're simply told to bend over and take it until they're done and toss us off the bed to clean up. We're told to stop whinging, that we're always the victim and it's never our fault.

Here's some news for you. We're perfectly capable of being critical of our club. If you are appealing to right minded Liverpool fans, then you will already know that we're acutely aware of the problems surrounding the club. If you are preaching to the moronic element, what do you expect? They're morons. Just because we defend the club doesn't mean we agree with everything the club does. We defend the club because you're wrong and we don't like you.

Where were you after Hillsborough? Where have you been in the last 20 years when the families were repeatedly told that nothing could be done, and every single inch of progress has been fought by a collection of brave, determined and honest folk?
Where were you in 2005 when the FA decided the Champions of Europe didn't deserve to qualify for the competition they'd won, that fourth place was somehow a greater prize despite them supporting the opposite outcome the year before in the event Chelsea or Arsenal (how's that going, London press?) won it without finishing in the top 4?
Where were you when Hicks and Gillett bought the club and proceeded to siphon as much money as they could, trying to drain the life out of it?
Where were you when the club hoarded Champions League final tickets, depriving loyal fans the chance to see their club challenge for the highest honour in football?
Where were you when they began to stick the knife into a manager who, whether you like it or not, had the interests of the fans at heart?
Where were you when that manager had to put out fires all over L4 started by two men who are so disliked in their own country they can't even go to baseball games at their own ground.
Where were you when the manager you had campaigned to take over from Rafa Benitez was sending the club into the Championship?
Where were you when football clubs rammed the price of going to the match up, pricing out a large proportion of families who had a long history of following their club?
Where were you when football fans are still treated like criminals by police?

We really don't like you, in fact we fucking hate you. You claimed we didn't want to hear a bad word against our club, that you're bringing the truth. Why is it then that so many fans have taken to independent bloggers and writers affording genuine tactical insight and balanced critique of football matches? Why have so many people armed with small budgets and a bit of motivation forged careers for themselves on the internet?

Kenny Dalglish was told by a Sky Sports interviewer that he should indulge his questioning because 'that's what the fans want'. His response pretty much summed it up.

"I think we know what the fans want more than you do"

Whatever Kenny Dalglish might do in his life, whatever mistakes he might make, I would guarantee he gives more of a shit about Liverpool FC and its fans than the media.

[Stussy]

Reds4Life with a great post on 'crisis' and leadership and how we should have acted and how we can take something positive through learning about what went wrong:

Continually find myself agreeing with you Johnno mate... got to get this sorted sharpish or there'll be a riot!!

The only conclusion that has come out of this for me is that there are and have been systemic failures within the club (some we have known about for years) that need some serious addressing.

There seems to be (from an outsiders perspective) no heirarchial structure in place, no process or protocol on how to handle legal matters of the most serious nature which then leads to no definitive plans implemented to ensure that the issue is contained and dealt with in the manner in which the issue or allegation merits.

Irrespective of what Evra claims and then the ensuing melodrama which unfolded, the club should have immediately taken this allegation (it is at the time until proven) as serious as any other, refused to make any further comment, direct any further queries to the legal department who would work in close conjunction with a Public Relations Dept to ensure that the reputation of the club, players, managers and supporters was protected.

A statement should have been made about the severity of the allegations and the stance that the football club takes on any allegations made, proven or not in regards to the issue.

And in my honest opinion this should have come from the top down and then that message should have continually come through the actions of the club from that point forward. 

A great read and I am not sure if any of you are aware of it but I will send it to you if you are interested, is a John F Kennedy School of Government paper called "Crisis - A Leadership Opportunity". It is written by Lt Colonels, Colonels and Captains of the United States Air Force, Navy and Army which addresses the significant challenges faced by leaders before, during and after a crisis.

The paper's authors collectively recognised that crisis is more prevalent and dramatic than ever before and they recognised the great value in understanding crisis theory and the leadership strategies to employ during these situations.

I used it as a basic premise to assist financial advisers in how to best deal with their clients during the Global Financial Crisis but I can not help but be drawn back to it and apply it as a benchmark for Liverpool Football Club.

Anyway to get to the crux, I found this statement enlightening:

"For years crisis management has been synonymous with reactive leadership. This stems from a belief that crisis is both unpredictable and unexpected; but this is simply not true. Crisis develops as an organisations values, beliefs, culture or behaviour becomes incongruent with its operating environment. Until they are realigned, crisis will continue indefinitely. A leader who is "tuned-in" to the signals of impending crisis and understands how to harness the urgency brought on by the situation, can minimise the potential dangers and maximise the resulting opportunities."

They basically found that there are seven essential strategies that are crucial for success. They are:

1) To lead from the front
2) Focus on the Core Purpose
3) Build the Team
4) Conduct continuous planning
5) Mitigate the threat
6) Tell the story
7) Profit from the crisis

This forms the basis of what they called "The Crisis Lifecycle Model" as a generic representation of crisis. It illustrates that crisis can be broken down into three unique phases.

In the first or preparation phase, the organisation is typically mired in the comfort zone. Here leaders struggle when introducing any change or learning, as the organisation prefers to avoid conflict and sustain equilibrium.

However, as crisis hits, the organisation is jolted into the emergency phase, often threatening its very existence.

Once the immediate threat is eliminated, the organisation enters the adaptive phase. In this phase, the leader has the attention and urgency to solve the underlying issue that caused the crisis in the first place.

Unfortunately many leaders don't take advantage of this opportunity and push the organisation back toward the original status-quo, ensuring that the crisis will return."

The part which sticks out for me is "Lead from the front" - be highly visible which if we looked at John W Henry and Tom Werner, I am not sure that this was achieved.

Taking a holiday in Florida (and I guess it is his right to take holidays at a time of his choosing) may not be the best spot for him to have been last weekend. Being highly visible at Old Trafford and ensuring that everyone knew exactly what was expected of them as a representative of Liverpool Football Club from this point forward would have been far more comforting for me to see as a supporter of a club who has had a less than harmonious 5 years. Just the presence of the owners alone would have told its own story. It would have shown the unity of the club and it would have shown some corners not to fuck with us.

And this is not a witch hunt on FSG, John W Henry or Tom Werner, this is a concerned supporter of a club I love watching this club being continually torn apart, fractured and derided by all and sundry asking what structure/framework/process, whatever you want to call it, do we have in place? This structure/framework/process then either wasn't followed or we don't have one. Either way it is an unpalatable thought.

Where to from here is anyones guess. The apologies have come, some may not agree with them, the manner in which they were delivered, the time it took to offer them but we need to learn from this experience quickly to ensure that we don't make the same mistake again.

There is a famous saying "It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and an instant to destroy it."

We need to be honest about the way in which this has panned out. We need to appreciate that this has highlighted a few areas of concern and we need to be seen that we have made a commitment to remedy them as quickly as possible.

We have started to go down this path and I hope that from this point forward we start to see Liverpool Football Club being spoken about for all the right reasons and all that is unequivocably great about this incredible football club.

Kev

[Jason_King]

from the late, great Shanklyboy and maybe not topical, however certainly relevant to being a Red and one of my favourite posts thats ever been posted on RAWK. RIP big man.

We had a go at that Princess.
It was the precursor to the May blitz.

When Ged was the manager I used to listen to that Legends show on Century radio on my way home from work.
Graeme Sharp, Alan Kennedy,Gary Owen and Mickey Thopmas used to present it.

Gary Owen was sound on it and Barney was his usual self ( I love the feller to bits but he was clueless on there).
Mickey Thomas and Graeme sharp were snidey, vindictive and absolutely venemous at times where Liverpool were concerned.
Barney was like a lost puppy and they used to take the piss every night.

They'd say something and all hands would know what Barnie should have said back to put them straight but he never ever did.I'd tried to get on a few times but never got through but I'd done my homework on both of these fellers as I knew I would one day.

Anyway one night I was coming out of work and I heard Mickey Thomas and Sharp saying something about Ged as usual and thought 'I'm not fucking having that" so I rang in and the researcher asked me what I wanted to talk about. I told him that if I told him that...he'd never let me on air. He was sound and said "It's not a problem mate.....I have to know though either way" So I told him I wanted to rip into that pair of gobshites and he started pissing himself laughing and said " Nice one....I'll get you on next".

So I'm going down The Lancs listening to the show and Barney says "We've got Ray on next from Liverpool who want's to talk to Mickey". Next thing I'm on the hard shoulder and on air.
Barney says "What is it you want to talk to Mickey about Ray".

So after telling Barney he was a great feller I ripped into the pair of inbreds.
I said they should be reported under the trade descriptions act  for calling this a legends show as there was only one of them that could come close to being that as Barney had won 13 major trophies in his career and scored the winning  goal in 2 European Cup Finals.
I told Sharp that at least he won a few things as a player but thinks he's qualified to comment on Houlliers managerial ability when his managerial carrer was one of abject failure. Taking an Oldham side full of  Premiership players to the 2nd Division in 2 years. Fucking legend alright.

Sharp never said a word.

Then I hit Mickey Thomas. I told him he was the biggest phoney on there. A Man Utd legend? or an everton Legend? Christ Almighty either way he was a joke. He played for Man Utd for 3 years and hardly did a tap. Scoring a handful of goals and never winning a fucking thing. At efc he lasted 3 months and was binned for refusing to play for the reserves...10 games and no goals.......some fucking legend.
The only time he won anything was the 3rd Division with Wrexham who took him back when he couldn't even get a club. 6 clubs in 6 years and doing nothing at any of them.
I asked him how he repaid Wrexham.........by using their trainees to laundering counterfeit money. A real fucking legend.
Any managerial experience Mickey......nahhh unless you can count running the team in the nick when you were doing your 18 months.

He tried to jump in a few times but I wouldn't let him and the producers just let me carry on until I'd finished.

Neither of them said a word and all I could hear was Gary Owen laughing his head off in the background.

My mate rang me up the following night to tell me he'd heard me on there and they were using my call to advertise their show.

You just can't win can yer?