Author Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed  (Read 372524 times)

royhendo

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Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« on: January 21, 2009, 08:54:28 AM »
Edit: due to some people completely missing the point of the thread... here's the point.

This is meant to be like the RAWK 'Readers Digest'.

Some threads go to double figures in pages in a few hours, and in amongst that lot you might miss a little nugget of quality cos you can't be arsed trawling through it all. If you see a post like that, from whoever it is (and it doesn't matter if it's a satanic bestial rant proving unequivocally that Rafa is the antichrist), then post it.

YOU ARE THE JUDGE. THE IDEA IS NOT FOR THE ORIGINAL POSTER TO GET ALL 'PRAVDA' ON YO' ASS. JUST POST THE QUALITY IF YOU FIND IT. SOME PEOPLE LIKE THEIR RAWK IN BITE-SIZED CHUNKS.

Anyway on to the posts I wanted to highlight in the first place cos they were buried under a mountain of shite.

---


I thought I'd quote a few posts I appreciated this week, because they appeared like little havens of rest in a stormy sea, only to fade from view in the barrage of garbage. If you've read them already, I apologise. I just know that I'd appreciate someone bringing stuff like this to my attention if I'd missed it - goodness knows it's hard to find the diamonds in amongst the shite these days.

Cheers to the posters like these for making this the finest site on the web.

---

On the 'Rafa's Houllier Moment' thread...

Well, I finally got round to reading the answers. I intended to answer them, but, in all honesty, once I saw your answer for a replacement manager was Mourinho I changed my mind. In fact, I nearly lost the will to live.
Me and  KOTP crossed swords in another thread about Rafa. He kept saying Rafa didn't act in the "Liverpool Way." I'd like to go on about the Liverpool way, but I've done that in other threads. But I'll say this.... Mourinho is the absolute anti-christ of the Liverpool way.

I honestly, personally hate the man that much that if he ever did become manager of LFC, I would stop going to all games immeadiately and wouldn't go to another until he was gone. And that's coming from a man who has been going to watch Liverpool for 45 years.

And once I saw his name, I was tempted to just print Fuck off in highlighted capitals, but I'll try to be above me usual self. But take it from me, Mourinho would truly be the final nail in the coffin of The Liverpool Way.

On top of that, Mourinho is also basically a very cautious manager. His teams play shit on a stick football and grind out very boring 1 - 0 wins. But why let facts like that stand in the way when finding another alternative is so hard if not impossible.

Also, did you not see Rafa's Valencia play? Boring, defensive football, I think not. We are work in progress - results and substance must come before flair. The hardest title to win is the first one. Style can be added once it's in the cabinet. They also seem to come in clusters too. And let's be honest.. who can honestly say they haven't been thrilled with some of our football during Rafa's shift?

Quick word on The Liverpool Way... it never just evolved or materialised out of the blue. Bill and Bob fought the board tooth and nail to make them conduct business in that manner. And Bill was never shy about going public with any of his gripes, or using us fans to help him push for what he wanted. We also had great men like John Smith and Peter Robinson conducting business for us - the exact polar opposites of Parry and H&G.

But anyway, instead of answering the answers, I will say this... I honestly think a lot of this stems from the fact that we have been completely ruined as fans by our success. In fact, Rafa created a terrible rod for his own back by winning the CL in his first season. Our expectations are quite laughable at times and no wonder fans of other clubs call us Whingeing Scousers.

Even through the lean years we have picked up trophies and our record would have been perfectly acceptable at other clubs. Imagine Portsmouth having the success we've had in the Ged/Rafa years. Fuck me. they made Harry Redknapp a free man of the city for winning the FA Cup. They even gave it to the spiv bastard after he'd kicked shit in their face and went to Spurs - a full two days after he'd fucked off.

We're not Pompey you will say. I know we are not - we boo when going top of the league. They sing non stop when getting twatted 8 - 0. But other than that, we have things in common - we're both skint and we have turmoil in the boardroom. But we expect, no demand, to win league titles against the most formidable richest opponents we have ever faced.

I think alot of this has to do with this fucking awful time of instant celebrity, fame and riches. No one wants to earn things now. A lot of young people have a smaller attention span than a goldfish. Yeah. I might be an auld bastard, but I don't watch highlights of Man U or Arsenal on MOTD and think they play like that for 90 minutes week in week out. And I'm certainly not having a go at young people. I know some cracking young reds. But it does seem to be an age thing. The problem is building a successful football team and leaving a lasting legace, still requires the sort of time it did in the glory years. I never hear any of these gripes in the auld arse thread.

After Saturday's wonder goal, one young fella on here said to me in all seriousness... We should buy Koncheski. When I pointed out the last time he scored a goal, it was really a cock up of a cross against us I was just surprised he even remembered we'd been to Cardiff. That's why I just say fuck off to most people who have lost faith in Rafa - they haven't got a fucking clue and just regurgitate what they are force fed by the media. "Skywashed" as someone on here named it.

I've no idea how old the OP is, but I just wish people like KOTP - who's probably far cleverer than me - would take the time to think of what could happen if Rafa jumps or is pushed.

Where would that leave us? In complete disarray, I'd think. And how long would it take us to pull out of it? Lets face it, even if a great manager was to come in under the best of circumstances, it would still take him time to implement his plans. I think, well, I'm practically certain, Arsene Wenger won the league in his first attempt. But he did take over a great side and had/has a good boardroom behind him.

So KOTP, as me Ninna would say, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Rafa sackers, really need to develop a little patientce. His lot is not an easy one. The boardroom will never give him there full support - we should.

But if he hasn't delivered the title in a couple of season's, when he's been allowed to buy the players he wants - within a set budget - I will join you. But I won't be doing it in slyly veiled little snipes. I'll be calling for his head good and proper. But until that time has clearly come, I'm fucked if I want to lose the best manager we've had since Sir Bob before he's had time to finish the job.

---

On the 'Rafa contract statement' issue...

I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated  30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benitez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.
The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.
The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.
Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.
Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League  and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benitez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benitez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benitez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benitez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benitez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benitez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benitez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.
Benitez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.
He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benitez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benitez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benitez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.
I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benitez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benitez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benitez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks  & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benitez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benitez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.
As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image.




If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of  Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.

H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending  to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that  H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.

Secondly  that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing  credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.

However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.

All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.

Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know  that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.   

Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.

---

Last but not least... the Results Comparison thread. The guys on there are doing an amazing job. It'd be a good idea to take a sober read from this point on in the thread. It'll maybe check your expectations and make you think.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226100.msg5279970#msg5279970
« Last Edit: April 1, 2009, 10:47:29 PM by royhendo »

royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2009, 10:00:06 AM »
I wish they were longer. If we all sat and read or listened to people like these instead of regurgitating the bollocks we inhale in the mass media, we'd all get a bit of perspective...

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 10:07:38 AM »
Shankly boy post is thoroughly interesting.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline SuperSub77

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 10:25:14 AM »
Thanks for sharing these royhendo.

The 'power struggle' is the old classic arguement of what is best for a situation versus profit. In the modern world, profit will always win. Sad but true.

They may be long posts, but worth the 5 minute read.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 10:34:33 AM »
Nice idea Roy.  Be good to keep this going.
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2009, 10:37:05 AM »
Nice idea Roy.  Be good to keep this going.

But people won't read them as too long and it does not call for Rafa's head in the first line.

I will state again:

We have not played as badly as people make out.

We are joint top, a game to look forward too against Madrid and still in the FA Cup.

One draw against our neighbours and the world is caving in.

We are famous for backing our team and patience but this is a mountain over a molehill.

This could still be a massive season and I hope are players believe this rather than the defeatist shit written on here.
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Offline rowan_d

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 10:39:42 AM »
We need Degs' post from one of the first-page thread

edit: Here we are

Our problems go deeper than a switch round of players but Insua is the kind of player, like Agger, who can help us when we're not winning and are seemingly happy to sit back on the draw.

This has been brewing in me for a while now and rather than start a new thread I'll post it here, since we're talking about missing links (not phil neville). I've made sure to take the time to watch how we play, stretching to the arse end of last season.

You can't put our problems down to one position or one player you have to look at the team as an entity.
Yes we do have a problem, now we'll get the "We're in 2nd, we're challenging for the title" brigade in their legions saying we don't have a problem, but anybody who watches us on a regular basis can see we're struggling, and we have done for a long time (not just this season) in a certain type of match.

It'd be counter productive and not in the Liverpool way at all not to look for ways our team could improve and could be playing better, if you don't then the title passes you by while other teams improve and address their problems. Seemingly a load of our fans have been blinded by the light when looking up from the top of the mountain, unaware we're perilously close to the cliff ledge.

Anyway cracking on (I hate long posts and hardly ever read them) the lad has raised a good point, and it's why are we better with the likes of Insua in the team, and I'll add to this (as will the stats, only one 0-0 between both players) Agger.

The answer is freedom.

I'm not on about total football here, where everybody has every position but a move away from the mechanical and drilled team we've seen under Rafa.  The higher we climb the more rigid we become. I firmly believe this is a direct cause of the system Rafa employs.
Now you'll get both groups wading in both wanting to crucify or coronate Rafa, when the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.  He's a great manager but he's not perfect, he's no Barack Obama, and results over the last 2 seasons, and even from his time in Spain have shown he has a weakness.

The weakness is well known.  Breaking down teams, especially teams with massive numbers behind the ball. I think there is a solution though.

Our problem comes from players being tethered to a spot on the pitch and given a radius of around 6 foot to do their work.  Those who do express creative freedom are either one of the 2 per match allowed to (Torres, Gerrard) or will find their arse with splinters the next (Agger).

Shankly said it best:
"Football is a simple game complicated by idiots"
That man knew his stuff and although you could never call Rafa and idiot, far from it, he does tend to overcomplicate the matter. 

We were revolutionised under a simply philosophy, "Pass and Move".
Pass and move died years ago, from the anti-football of Souness, to the dribble whenever you can Spice Boys, to the counter attacking of Houllier, and now to the military regiment that is Rafa's XI.

I'm not saying we destroy what Rafa has created but the more Rafa is here the more constricted our players become. If Rafa is still here in 5 years time I wouldn't be surprised to see eleven robots on the pitch.

Some people argue it won't work in modern football and to that I say bollocks. 
As much as we hate them the Mancs were so successful last year because of their freedom in front of the middle 2.

The quartet of Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo were all allowed to drift in and out of each others positions, never becoming stuck against one defender and constantly probing the opposition's back line.
Their problem this year has come from having a player that can only play in one position, Berbatov is too slow to not play anywhere other than in the middle of the park up the top.
It badly set back their team and gave defences a much easier time, they knew what was coming and where it was coming from, there was no interchange and no freedom and they suffered from alot of the problems we do now.

Again this season the team leading the way is Barcelona.
They have a selection of Busquets/Toure and even at times Keita defending anything coming through the middle while in front of them Messi, Henry, and Eto'o are allowed to roam free while Xavi pulls the strings and keeps it all together (Iniesta can also fill in this role).

It's meant they're the quickest to ever reach 50 points in Spain (alright they have class players) but they've done it scoring 85 goals in all competitions this season and only conceding 13 in the league.

Watch how many people end up in the box off any attack, they are safe in the knowledge that should they lose the ball it will be recovered.

Edit: And before you watch it try to count along with how many players are in the box supporting attacks, and ask when the ball is played out from the back could Xabi, Agger, Insua do this? Course they could.

1st half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ThXFFl6MC_4&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

2nd half highlights
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FERR9PmnRKs&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

I'm not saying we need to be Barcelona but we have the players that would allow the team the creative freedom we so desperately need.
Agger brings out it exceptionally well from the back linking the defence to the midfield, Alonso is great in the tackle but can spray the ball, doing a Xavi style job orchestrating what is in front of him, we have Mascherano who has had fuck all to do this season because of our sit back attitude, and we have Torres, Gerrard, and Keane who can all score goals.

It was worst exemplified at Stoke. We're 0-0 and playing passes to the back, long balls up front, and our front men aren't moving laterally at all because they're told they must be tracking back and helping the fella behind them.

We don't just have zonal marking on corners we have it in open play, you can tell they each have their own segment to mark and they're scared to abandon it.
No freedom at all.

What we need is an attitude change.
Our team go out with the primary goal of not losing, that much is clear, that's how they're set out, that's how they play, if a win comes it's in spite of our style.  A goal from Torres, a goal from Stevie.

I'll ask you this, on Sunday count how many players are in the box when our attack finishes, I can tell you now it's 2 at most.
It also seems pretty obvious Mascherano will play, I'll ask you to do this, keep an eye on him and what he has to do.  His best asset is his tenacity, to chase players all over the pitch and reclaim the ball.  If we again play with 2 holding players we'll see Mascherano once more looking around at other people doing the work he's there to do rather than doing what they should be doing (Kuyt).

Bring back pass and move, give the lads in the final third some freedom, and go out to win the match.


Offline KOTP

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 10:48:48 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 10:52:05 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

But you are the one that started the thread calling for Rafa's head if I am not mistaken.

Still canot quite believe it.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 10:57:19 AM »
That is a quality post from Degs there.

Benitez = modern day Lobanovsky?

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 11:05:31 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

Nope. It's just they seem to have a decent arguement and point, that is well thought out and put articulately. A far cry from "Sack Rafa" or "Rafas done a Ged" which are based on madness and kneejerk reactions.

I scroll through a lot of the dross on here, but I look out for the names of a few of the well-known posters on this board. Why? Because they see the bigger picture.



Back on topic - most of the "Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3" thread should be quoted in here. There's some real football know-how in there.

Here's a link: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=225239.msg4601100#msg4601100
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 11:09:30 AM by Uhoh AureliOs »

Offline Aigburth73

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 11:14:23 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

I'd say the posts are very analytical and well thought out. To say that they don't say anything bad about the team or club suggests you didn't read them properly

Offline No666

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 11:14:37 AM »
Thank you for highlighting those posts. I'd read them in the original threads and they were balm - a relief from all over-emotional twats with the IQ of a paper cup.
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Offline the jesus

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 11:16:17 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

Your free to post anything in here, find something as coherent as the posts Royhendo posted that you like and post it.


Missed both the ShanklyBoy posts which were interesting so cheers for this. Decent idea.
"We just stand beside each other, and help each other. And we make sure that what we’re doing, we’re doing correctly"- Kenny

“When you’re lost in a fog you must stick together. Then you don’t get lost. If there’s one secret to Liverpool, that’s it.” - Bob

Offline gb096

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 11:16:27 AM »
There are some real tossers on here...sack Rafa...my god these people have no idea about football and I just get the ideas drinking down the pub. Who would replace him?? There is not one manager out there that i would have in his place, he loves LFC and has managed to guide us to joint top in the league. Even though there endless crap going on behind him and also has a team booed for going top. If I was him I would have walked and said stuff you lot, you do not know how hard it is managing this club.!!

Support the manager as I beleive that he is giving his all and still beleives that he can win the Prem......and pull your heads out of your arses at the same time....

Offline the jesus

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 11:17:04 AM »
I'd say the posts are very analytical and well thought out. To say that they don't say anything bad about the team or club suggests you didn't read them properly

Indeed , they far from towed the party line regarding Parry.
"We just stand beside each other, and help each other. And we make sure that what we’re doing, we’re doing correctly"- Kenny

“When you’re lost in a fog you must stick together. Then you don’t get lost. If there’s one secret to Liverpool, that’s it.” - Bob

Offline Rapp Motorenwerke GmbH

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 11:28:09 AM »
That is a quality post from Degs there.

Benitez = modern day Lobanovsky?

Yep.

Offline hobbes2007

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 11:32:28 AM »
Good thread, cheers for that. Especially useful for those of us who don't spend that much time on RAWK. Having said that I deliberately stayed away yesterday, to avoid some of the avalanche of stupid posts that were bound to follow the Everton game.
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royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 11:48:59 AM »
Cheers for posting that from Degs. I'd agree with the frustration and the need to loosen the reins short-term, but for me we're at a critical stage just now, and we need to understand the implications of what we're demanding.

I've just replied to Strawberry Fields in another thread saying as much (actually in KOTP's thread, which has thrown up several good posts - the o.p. in fact, while I don't agree with it, has provoked thought and was well written, so it's a good post). There's no need for a party line, but people need to realise how crucial developments are - we're coming to a genuine crossroads in our future development and our ability to compete on an ongoing basis.

Domestically, even with the millstone of Glazer debt, Man Utd are all set up to be an economic and sporting powerhouse for the next few decades. Arsenal are having some issues of their own, but they've got a strong foundation in place that most can appreciate will only take a tweak or two to resolve. Chelsea may be making stupid decisions right now, but they still boast a frightening squad, and their owner boasts frightening wealth... as do the owners of Man City, who we can only hope continue to emit brainfarts of cosmic proportions and hinder their own progress.

Meanwhile, most worryingly for me than any other development, is the steady and unrelenting progress being made by Aston Villa. O'Neill is someone I have mixed feelings about, but he's ambitious and capable, and he's intelligent. But more important than that, he's backed by an enlightened owner with deep pockets and a patient approach that recognises how to build the foundations for long-term success. Villa are going to kick on from here.

I won't go too far into this here cos I feel a long post brewing, but we need to stop and recognise that capable rivals are growing domestically, and that's to say nothing of resurgent forces on the continent like Barca and Bayern - clubs with serious projects underway that potentially insulate them from the influence of a head coach.

These clubs have put plans in place and they're sticking to them. We on the other hand have fragmented leadership at board and ownership level, we're acknowledged as being in the red with our transfer budget and have to sell to buy, we have a Chief Executive who finds himself in a strategically indispensible position yet also demands fingers in all the footballing pies, despite having no expertise in these matters... and the one chance we do have of emulating the long-term planning and progress made by the likes of Man Utd, Barca, and Aston Villa is the manager, who is now demanding the environment that will let him really compete with these clubs long-term, and won't sign his contract until he gets it.

So we're on the horns of a massive dilemma here, and sadly many fans are jumping on to an ill-advised bandwagon in the pursuit of short-term success.

I'll say it again - I'd rather we were worrying about Man Utd catching us on 30 league titles when they're on 27 than getting rid of the best chance we've had in decades of genuine sporting dominance.

The football is limited and the reasons are many, but the overall ambition is up there with the very best the game has ever seen. Hank - Lobanowskyi comparisons may hold true, but they also extend to other managerial giants from the game's past. The main characteristic we ought to hold dear right now is that of a team builder - of someone who wants to create a lasting foundation and legacy for the club. People like that are hard to get a hold of, and we need someone of that ilk now more than we have at any time since Shanks arrived.

Otherwise we'll find ourselves chasing our tails in the footalling doldrums inhabited by the likes of Spurs.

Offline redrockydennis

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 11:53:03 AM »
boss thread, can't even bring myself to wade through half the crap on here at the moment.
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royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 11:54:58 AM »
some good posts but surely the thread title should be changed to good posts that tow the line in making sure nothing bad is said about the team or club as if it did theni wouldnt put them here

By the way KOTP the posters concerned often have quite a lot of critical things to say about the side and the club, but they do it in a way that puts things in its proper long-term context. Things aren't all hunky dory at the club right now and nobody's trying to paper over the cracks. The auld arses are just trying to rein things in and make people realise what it is they're suggesting.

Offline 4pool

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2009, 12:08:02 PM »
True as Fat scouser says we're not the finished article.

Rafa is taking us towards a Valencia style of play. But in order to do that you need a tight defense. Every year the team that wins the league generally concedes the least goals. There's no secret why they win it. Most focus on the goals scored. But when you don't concede you get those 1-0's don't you?

Speaking of Rafa and attack, our lad Lucas comes in for some stick. But he is integral to broadening the attack. He gets in the box more in one game than Alonso or Mascherano do in a season. Now that is not to take away from arguably our best midfielder in Xabi. Or our best defensive midfielder. However, to often our lads haven't recognized Lucas' runs in open play and the chance goes begging. Not to mention the headers Lucas wins in the box. Some he's sent wide, others saved. How often do you see Alonso or Masch in the box for corners? Lucas adds that extra dimension.

Then there's the likes of Agger and Insua at the back.

There are signs of progress ahead with the players we have. As ever we evolve. Rafa is keen never to sit still and accept things as they are. In spite of those who say he stubborn. He is at that, he stubbornly wants perfection.
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 12:17:46 PM »
Thanks for the heads up roy.  It's like an oasis of calm and tranquility amongst all the shite that's normally posted.

Shanklyboy has given us a great insight into the behind-the-scenes goings on which, for me, is a real eye-opener.

Degs - Barca are playing like Arsenal of old.  Get men running at pace with the ball at the defence with other midfielders/attackers trying to get behind the back-pedalling defenders.  It's incredibly simple: time the run, play the ball and yet we haven't got a clue how to do it and haven't had anyone attempting it consistently since Nick Barmby was in the team. (Criticise Barmby all you want but if there was 1 thing he was good at it was getting behind the defence.)
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline hassinator

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 12:35:46 PM »
an excellent thread idea roy.  i've already enjoyed you collating links to the best contributions on the level three thread but there needs to be some backbone added to the main forums rather than the usual bitch fighting.

but how do we keep this going without it being filled up with loads of random one liners or sarcy comments?


Offline Robinred

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 12:41:41 PM »
Good thread. That last post is spot on Roy, because it puts the genuine and relevant concerns of Degs' post in context.

The answer to such posts (ie - well-argued and structured posts critical of elements of Rafa's teams, making  them worthy of reply) is as you say to view the CLUB's (frankly frightening) position currently with our rivals; then to look at how well the team is doing given that position.

I don't know how things behind the scene will pan out. I'm hopeful rather than confident.

I don't know how the current season will pan out on the field either. Again I'm hopeful rather than confident. The strong argument in Deg's piece that resonates with me, is that a team can go three games unbeaten (LFC) yet only pick up the same number of points as a team set up, shall we say 'less cautiously'?, and which loses two out of three.

And that's a very powerful argument. (For Manchester Utd in particular, it works too. But remember that United's defence is on current form by far the best in the division).

And so what we are witnessing is actually entirely predictable; it's what's likely to happen when a project like Rafa's is 70% complete isn't it? The basic ethos IS about a clean sheet and 'control'. Not all the pieces are yet in place, but the logic of sticking with the basic principles is key.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 12:45:22 PM by Robinred »
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royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2009, 01:00:34 PM »
lfcdereks reaction to finding out Shanks1965 had beaten him to picking Gerry Byrne on the "All Time LFC Draft" thread... amazing stuff.

Bloody, bloody, bloody hell.

Why, why, why did I risk getting him pinched.

Where do you start with Gerry Byrne.

"I've had many skillful men and the likes of Peter Thompson, Ian St John, Kevin Keegan and Steve Heighway were the ones who caught the eye. But the best professional of the lot was Gerry Byrne. He wasn't flashy and he wouldn't score you goals. But he was hard and skillful and gave you everything he had. More than that he was totally honest. Which is the greatest quality of all. He was a true Liverpudlian who couldn't look his fellow Scousers in the face after a game unless he'd given everything he had for 90 minutes."

Bill Shankly in 1975.


Most people remember him for playing much of the 65 FA Cup with a broken collar bone. This is unfortunate in many ways since he was, IMO, the best LB for us in my lifetime. Quick, almost completely two footed, great (great!!!) tackler, good positionally and as hard as bloody nails. He was a member of the 66 world cup squad and didn't get a game only because Ray Wilson was (again IMO) the best ever English LB.

If you’re of an age.
And if you’re at Anfield when it’s empty.
And if you listen very hard.
You might just hear the sound of a crunching tackle.

And a knowing little smile will appear on your face.

Bloody, bloody, Bloody Hell.

Kudos to Sarge for the thread cos it's taken over my life and my boss is getting suspicious...
The selections are here...
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235851.0

The discussion related to it is here...
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235837.0

And commiserations/kudos to BMW too, cos he wanted to do the same thing at much the same time :wellin

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2009, 01:21:32 PM »
Here's a cracking post from a young lad in another thread (Rafa goes all Ged on us). I've cut and pasted cos I didn't know how to qoute something from one thread to another. That's because I'm thick. So, I'm surprised and embarrased to see my drivel in here. I honestly don't know fuck all compared to some people on here. I just got lucky enough to see the glory years and get educated by some really knowledgeable auld arses. And I reckon a lot of the young people on here could do with shutting up and listening to some of the wise auld bastards in here. As me Ninna would say... take the cotton wool out of your ears, stick it in your grid and listen.

That's not a go at young people. I know some great young reds with a better knowledge than me own. Anyway, here's the view of a good young un. Well in lad....

I have to admit, I haven't read all the replies and discussion in this thread. As much more of a lurker than poster that's quite unusual for me, but I feel the need to post on this topic.

I'm a younger Red. Twenty-three.

I'd imagine most people calling reactionally for Rafa's head after losses(or even draws!) would be placed somewhere near my own age.

I can only vaguely remember football before Sky - sadly, against my own will, I am one of the Sky generation. We belong to a time of constant media exposure to our sport, constant headlines, constant debate, constant bullshit spouted out by pundits and experts without the balls to manage a club themselves or even go against the common perception of footballing cliches.

And it messes with your head. It messes with my head.

This is my first time experiencing a real, concrete challenge for this title we all want so fucking badly. And it tells on me. Every dropped point, every decision that goes against us, every word thrown out in a verbal sparring match. It fucking exhausts me.

But this is it.

This is what we - I, at least - begged for, for as long as I could remember. We are in there. Mixing it up. Trading blows with the from the East Lancs and those nobodies from London. Fighting for every point.

And when I remember that, I remember WHY every dropped point hurts - because they have never mattered as much as they do now. They have never counted as they do this season.

We have a chance. It hurts me when we drop points...but this is a fucking TITLE RACE. Something only those of us old enough to appreciate 1990 - which I cannot - can truly understand. We're in it! We're fighting for our crown.

Who brought us there?

That's all I ask.

If you will cast your mind back to 2004. Our top striker decides to leave because his home club, one of Europe's elite, cannot match his ambition. Our club had failed to reply to going one nil down to so long it had become a running joke. Laughed at even in our own league - and mocked, by proxy, by the actions of our best player - for our gutlessness and lack of ambition.

And in Europe...

Those four cups we all hold so dear seemed like long ago, distant memories, as revelant to those in my age group as tales of King Arthur and Excalbiur. Mere legends, fanciful tales spoken in bragging but sentimental tones around firesides the world over.

Rafael Benitez.

If you can remember where we were when he took over, you can remember what e, and he alone, brought us. Back to the forefront of European dominance. Replacing players like Diao and Diouf with the likes of Mascherano and Torres. Making us look like a real title contending team for the first time since...well, a very long time.

He takes abuse from our press, our own owners, and some of our fans. He faces an impossible mission - to restore a proud, but battered institution to its rightful place atop what is now the hardest league in the world to win.

And here we are, near February, fighting for it.

IN THE MIX.

And to all those pissing and moaning here, ask yourselves this- if you had been offered this position before the season started, would you have taken it?

Down the Lancs, all we heard and see is confidence, while here we splutter and worry and bite our nails like frightened little schoolgirls. I have been guilty of it myself at times this season. But we're undermining ourselves. Our players, our manager, our staff - OUR FUCKING TEAM - need us one and all behind them.

No in-fighting. No OOT vs Scouser. No superfan vs whopper. No optimist vs pessimist. No fucking nothing.

Our team needs us.

Rafa can takes us there, of that I truly believe. But only if we give him the chance. We've been starved too long, have waited patiently only to be denied time after time. It shows in our behaviour. Like a starved animal we squirm and howl and struggle in vain for what we need.

But our struggle has come close to ending - all we need now is the fucking bottle to see this through.

And if we fall short - is it Rafa's fault?

It took that piss stained fucking wino Ferguson many title challenges to win his first one - and look what
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2009, 01:30:16 PM »
Doing yourself a disservice there Fats. I've bookmarked a few people's posts for my morning cuppa, and you're one of them.

Offline wednesday25052005

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2009, 01:46:01 PM »
Here's a cracking post from a young lad in another thread (Rafa goes all Ged on us). I've cut and pasted cos I didn't know how to qoute something from one thread to another. That's because I'm thick. So, I'm surprised and embarrased to see my drivel in here. I honestly don't know fuck all compared to some people on here. I just got lucky enough to see the glory years and get educated by some really knowledgeable auld arses. And I reckon a lot of the young people on here could do with shutting up and listening to some of the wise auld bastards in here. As me Ninna would say... take the cotton wool out of your ears, stick it in your grid and listen.

IMMENSE - Well said there - that's the attitude needed right throughout our club, from the top to the bottom.

There's been plenty of times you hear it at thematch and on here - 'if we could just be in mix come the business end' we'll there's 4 and bit months to go and as of now we're right in the mix despite Monday's draw.

Keep the faith and keep it right behind  the team, Rafa and each other.

You Never Walk Alone - is how it goes isn't it??!!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 09:23:12 AM by Barney_Rubble »

Offline Ginamos

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2009, 02:01:26 PM »

---

Last but not least... the Results Comparison thread. The guys on there are doing an amazing job. It'd be a good idea to take a sober read from this point on in the thread. It'll maybe check your expectations and make you think.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226100.msg5279970#msg5279970

Cheers for that link, I'd completely missed it. You're quite right, come great statto work.

Offline Degs

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2009, 02:10:30 PM »
Cheers for posting that from Degs. I'd agree with the frustration and the need to loosen the reins short-term, but for me we're at a critical stage just now, and we need to understand the implications of what we're demanding.
Maybe I didn't put it across well enough but against teams who come to Anfield (or in some cases stay at home) and choose not to play football we can't continue as we are.

Rafa has plans but as his time at the club increases Plan B is used with increasing rarity.  At Stoke we stick with a poor shape, and players playing poorly (Lucas) while Robbie Keane sits on the bench.

We're having the same problem that Rafa's 01/02 Valencia had that won the league, only as there are more teams willing to park the bus I don't think we'll be able to get enough points to win the league and it's starting to bother me that after so many months of the same thing happening we haven't even introduced a new Plan B.  The best Plan B we had was sold to Portsmouth.

Here's the percentage of points taken from the bottom 6 clubs.

Valencia
01/02 - 66% of points (only double win was against bottom side Zaragoza)
02/03 - 66% of points (only double win was against bottom side Rayo Vallecano)
03/04 - 55% of points (only double was against 19th side Celta)

Liverpool
04/05 -  66% of points (double wins against 17th side W.B.A and 19th side Norwich)
05/06 -  88% of points (doubles over all bottom 6 bar 2 draws with 18th side Birmingham)
06/07 -  80% of points (doubles over 15th, 17th, 20th)
07/08 -  80% of points (doubles on all bar 18th, and 19th)
08/09* - 66% of points so far

We lack a plan B.
We had Crouch as a plan B, and even Babel worked as a good plan B last season.
As it is now we don't have an option to change it round if we're losing meaning the likes of Lucas come on and do nothing.

If we don't have the players anymore that can make a plan B work then what we need to do is have a different philosophy and that for me should be to break the chains and allow fluidity.

In Rafa's first season we lost loads of points away and Crouch was brought in to beef us up.  We've lost that muscle and so we've lost the battering ram, what's needed is the freedom to play and go forward, or somebody who can hold the ball up, because as it is now, as mentioned in my post at the end of any attack we will have 2 players in the box at any one time.

We committed a mortal sin by letting Crouch go and replacing him with somebody who is 5 foot 8.
Until we can fill that gap then we need to play football as what we're trying now doesn't work.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 02:15:56 PM by Degs »

royhendo

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2009, 02:31:50 PM »
Maybe I didn't put it across well enough but against teams who come to Anfield (or in some cases stay at home) and choose not to play football we can't continue as we are.

Not at all Degs - it's a wonderful post, and like Fats you're one of the guys whose posts I read for fun when I get a free minute or two. I share your frustrations and feel the balance needs to change, but I'm not sure it will this season, because while he's happier with the squad, he's a couple of years away from fully trusting it to do what he wants on the park at all times.

My point cuts across yours really Degs. Yes, we have pressing concerns to address on the park. But for me, it's a massive worry that we're going to throw away our progress in a fit of Nelson Piquet when we're tantalisingly close to the systems we're not far off mastering.

Two or three players more who can play as well as work and battle is all we need. Until that point we'll have weak links in the chain, dissipate momentum, and fall short of breaking sides down consistently when they park the bus. But two things.

The squad is getting progressively stronger and while we're still wasting time concerning ourselves with our opponents' strengths and neglecting how we ought to be hurting them, eventually the trust is going to grow to the stage where we do impose ourselves consistently.

Regardless, what we need now more than at any time since the 50s is the hard graft that puts our foundation in place to build again. Build the squad and the systems and the quality-in-depth, and build the youth pipeline to compete with the other top sides. And then, when it's matured properly, see us compete where we ought to be. If we throw the baby out with the bathwater at this stage of our development, it'll be a tragedy in my view. Everyone will be scratching their heads 5 years down the line wondering why things have gone pear shaped.

Rafa has plans but as his time at the club increases Plan B is used with increasing rarity.  At Stoke we stick with a poor shape, and players playing poorly (Lucas) while Robbie Keane sits on the bench...

...We committed a mortal sin by letting Crouch go and replacing him with somebody who is 5 foot 8.
Until we can fill that gap then we need to play football as what we're trying now doesn't work.

Crouch wanted to leave Degs. I agree that Keane's not meeting expectations, and in retrospect it feels increasingly like we'd have been better investing the money in a couple of other departments. A more worrying thing for me is the way we're using Carra and Sammi at the expense of Agger. For me he should be first pick at CB every time he's fit, because he'll pick a pass rather than launch it long and hopeful. We have players to sustain that kind of approach, but we need to play them. But then Rafa needs to shift his approach to really embrace that. I've been saying the exact same thing, as have most of the guys on here whose posts I find informative.

What I'm not advocating is starting again from scratch. Give the man time to learn the lessons he needs to learn, and give him the authority and the accountability. The naysayers will say "give him enough rope", but if he does the job right, we'll reap the dividends down the line.

Offline diarrhea

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2009, 02:34:12 PM »
Thanks roy. Those shanklyboy posts scare the shit out of me.

Offline manifest

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »

great idea roy.

 



Offline Degs

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2009, 03:10:59 PM »
Not at all Degs - it's a wonderful post, and like Fats you're one of the guys whose posts I read for fun when I get a free minute or two. I share your frustrations and feel the balance needs to change, but I'm not sure it will this season, because while he's happier with the squad, he's a couple of years away from fully trusting it to do what he wants on the park at all times.

My point cuts across yours really Degs. Yes, we have pressing concerns to address on the park. But for me, it's a massive worry that we're going to throw away our progress in a fit of Nelson Piquet when we're tantalisingly close to the systems we're not far off mastering.

Two or three players more who can play as well as work and battle is all we need. Until that point we'll have weak links in the chain, dissipate momentum, and fall short of breaking sides down consistently when they park the bus. But two things.

The squad is getting progressively stronger and while we're still wasting time concerning ourselves with our opponents' strengths and neglecting how we ought to be hurting them, eventually the trust is going to grow to the stage where we do impose ourselves consistently.

Regardless, what we need now more than at any time since the 50s is the hard graft that puts our foundation in place to build again. Build the squad and the systems and the quality-in-depth, and build the youth pipeline to compete with the other top sides. And then, when it's matured properly, see us compete where we ought to be. If we throw the baby out with the bathwater at this stage of our development, it'll be a tragedy in my view. Everyone will be scratching their heads 5 years down the line wondering why things have gone pear shaped.

Crouch wanted to leave Degs. I agree that Keane's not meeting expectations, and in retrospect it feels increasingly like we'd have been better investing the money in a couple of other departments. A more worrying thing for me is the way we're using Carra and Sammi at the expense of Agger. For me he should be first pick at CB every time he's fit, because he'll pick a pass rather than launch it long and hopeful. We have players to sustain that kind of approach, but we need to play them. But then Rafa needs to shift his approach to really embrace that. I've been saying the exact same thing, as have most of the guys on here whose posts I find informative.

What I'm not advocating is starting again from scratch. Give the man time to learn the lessons he needs to learn, and give him the authority and the accountability. The naysayers will say "give him enough rope", but if he does the job right, we'll reap the dividends down the line.

It's this whole Agger thing that's got my really downbeat.

The players who win you league title are the ones between the lines and we've got 4 of these.
Agger, Mascherano, Gerrard and Torres.
At the minute Agger isn't getting a look in, isn't even guaranteed a place at the club, Mascherano has nothing to do in most of his matches while the Gerrard and Torres partnership (like last match) is broken up to make some space for Keane to start.

The system we have can be a very good one and we are strengthening in squad quality but not where it's needed.
If we could have spent 15 million on a decent right winger like Jesus Navas and guaranteed the likes of Crouch some games, or brought in somebody in his mould (not Heskey by the way) for another 5 I think we'd be laughing.

We're stifled creatively and as somebody mentioned above it's exactly what Vicente said about his time under Rafa, he wasn't allowed the freedom.

It's our gift and our curse.  We're near enough unbeatable and it's great in Europe and against the other big sides but when we get down to the bottom half that unbeatability is more of a hindrance than a help.  If you swapped 2 draws for a loss and a win we'd be flying at the top by now.

I'm not arguing to kick Rafa out, to rip up the sheet and start again but when something isn't working you can't just sit on your hands and be thinking "ahh but it nearly worked" or "yes but in a few years it'll work", we have to try something else.

Hopefully with Torres fit we will, him and Keane together could form a partnership (I highly doubt it though - watch him for Spain and he plays ten times better without Villa) but until we do bring in the right calibre of player to beat a team like Fulham then we can't persist.

I'm not after a shake down of everything but just an alternative idea for when it's not working. 

Moyes got the better of Rafa in the derby when Benayoun came on at the right and he switched Anichebe there.  He was beaten tactically by David Moyes because we didn't have an alternative.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 03:13:17 PM by Degs »

Offline Joe_Singh

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2009, 03:59:19 PM »
Congrats Roy on another great thread.

I do agree with you that there are week links in the team and i'm sure they'll be addressed when we have money to spend again. Not this January obviously.

On the Agger issue, I understand he has been injured for the last couple of games but before that I think his form has been a little indifferent, but I don't think that will last very long and I'm sure he'll play more often against teams who want to park the bus. Skrtel on the other hand is an ideal solution to when we come up against the Drogbas and Adebayours of this world.
What I love about this, and several other of Kenny's press conferences, is that he manages to say something to the effect of  'Shut the fuck up, you fucking helmets and don't fuck with me or my football club or I'll make you eat your own balls', without actually using th

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »

In Rafa's first season we lost loads of points away and Crouch was brought in to beef us up.  We've lost that muscle and so we've lost the battering ram, what's needed is the freedom to play and go forward, or somebody who can hold the ball up, because as it is now, as mentioned in my post at the end of any attack we will have 2 players in the box at any one time.

We committed a mortal sin by letting Crouch go and replacing him with somebody who is 5 foot 8.
Until we can fill that gap then we need to play football as what we're trying now doesn't work.
But as you know, Crouchie wasn't prepared to be plan B. To the lad's credit he wanted to get regular football, instead of sitting on his arse and picking up the wages.

Then the Heskey rumour surfaces, as, (an affordable) plan B. It caused near melt down in here. Thing is, as you well know Degs, Rafa is trying to address these and more issues. But fighting this fight is proving practically impossible with his hands tied behind his back.

We all go on about how the team would perform with the shackles taken off. Well, I'd like to see that happen to Rafa too. We all know about the likes of Alves, Berbatov, Evra, Simao etc, slipping through the net, but, as Shanklyboy said, we don't really know how many of Rafa's targets have been lost.
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Offline JP-65

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2009, 04:08:30 PM »
Roy, great idea for a thread :)

I normally don't "multiple post" stuff, but I thought it appropriate to some of the discussion above re: Agger.

It's from Roy's Level 3 thread, and with some prompting from VDM, here's some "data" for this discussion.

A)
'I did some stats in a thread that died a natural death, on who was important in our defense.  I thought the stuff was interesting, so I've kept it up.

So far this season, in PL play, we've gained 2.22 points per match when Agger has played, 2.2 ppm with Hyppia, 2.0 with Skrtel.  Now .2 ppm doesn't sound like much, but over 38 matches it equates to 7.6 points, which is huge.

Carra is at 2.17 points as a centre back.

So surprisingly, Skrtel is the weaker link in the centre backs.  This also shows up in the analysis of who is playing when we get shut out.  Skrtel has started in 8 matches, we've been shut out 3 times while he's been playing (of 5 times we've been shut out), which is the highest ratio of all the CB's.

At left back, Insua has a small number of matches, but he and Fabio are both on 2.33 ppm, while Doss is at 1.78 ppm.  Doss has also been involved in 3 of our blank sheets, in 9 starts.

At right back, Arbie has been there for most of the season, and is on 2.17 ppm, Carra at RB is on 2.0 ppm but it is a small sample.

BTW, Agger has only been on the field for 1 blank sheet in 9 starts.

I'm doing some more work on this and I'll post the data later.'


B)
'VDM, thanks for the thought, the sample size gets a little small when it's split this way, but it's stunning what it's thrown up.

When Hyppia plays we gain 2.6 ppm away, and 1.8 ppm at home.
When Agger plays we gain 2.0 ppm away, and 2.5 ppm at home.

Most of the rest of the data is consistent home & away, and the teams performance this season is remarkably similar in this aspect, so this anomaly really sticks out.

Pretty clear isn't it, if both are available, it should be Hyppia playing away and Agger at home.'


C)
'VDM, you're right on the money, we're averaging 1.55 goals at home, with Agger it's 2.25, and he's the only one in the defense who's higher than the average.

Interestingly, on the aways, we're averaging 1.73 goals, with Hyppia it's 2.2, and Agger 2.0, but we've let in more than the average with Agger in the team, and as a consequence his ppm doesn't look good.

For the goals against, the home average is 0.64 and he's the best at 0.50, but it increases to 1.0 on the aways (again 0.64 average for the team)'


Brings back the squad issue doesn't it, there's a "best" team for different situations, and it's not necessarily the same team in each instance.  Seems Agger is critical for our home performance and Hyppia is a better option for our away's.

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »
Here's a cracking post from a young lad in another thread (Rafa goes all Ged on us). I've cut and pasted cos I didn't know how to qoute something from one thread to another. That's because I'm thick. So, I'm surprised and embarrased to see my drivel in here. I honestly don't know fuck all compared to some people on here. I just got lucky enough to see the glory years and get educated by some really knowledgeable auld arses. And I reckon a lot of the young people on here could do with shutting up and listening to some of the wise auld bastards in here. As me Ninna would say... take the cotton wool out of your ears, stick it in your grid and listen.

that sums my feelings up exactly what a post .
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 09:24:02 AM by Barney_Rubble »

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Re: Some quality posts you may have missed
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2009, 04:20:57 PM »
It's our gift and our curse.  We're near enough unbeatable and it's great in Europe and against the other big sides but when we get down to the bottom half that unbeatability is more of a hindrance than a help.  If you swapped 2 draws for a loss and a win we'd be flying at the top by now.

I'm not arguing to kick Rafa out, to rip up the sheet and start again but when something isn't working you can't just sit on your hands and be thinking "ahh but it nearly worked" or "yes but in a few years it'll work", we have to try something else.
These are key points.
We all go on about how the team would perform with the shackles taken off. Well, I'd like to see that happen to Rafa too. We all know about the likes of Alves, Berbatov, Evra, Simao etc, slipping through the net, but, as Shanklyboy said, we don't really know how many of Rafa's targets have been lost.
True.