Topic: リバプールへようこそ 遠藤

[SamLad]

So let me get this straight, you are using an incorrect example of Hendo always "tracking" his runner from the right midfield spot when we played 433 to post negative things about Endo playing in a double pivot of a 4231, where Mac Allister was on the right hand side.. Please someone help it make sense.

Al is a 100% windup merchant. 
just put him on Ignore.  his nonstop nonsense does nothing to improve RAWK, or anything else, imo.

[newterp]

Al is a 100% windup merchant. 
just put him on Ignore.  his nonstop nonsense does nothing to improve RAWK, or anything else, imo.

Not totally true - he does great work on certain threads and generally analyzes things well.

However, he can't ever admit that he's wrong if someone challenges him on a proposition/statement. Never. You'll end up with 15 more pages of debate, such that the original point will be long gone, and he'll have "won" an argument on a tangential/wholly new point and/or worn you out so that you stop responding.

[Eeyore]

So let me get this straight, you are using an incorrect example of Hendo always "tracking" his runner from the right midfield spot when we played 433 to post negative things about Endo playing in a double pivot of a 4231, where Mac Allister was on the right-hand side.. Please someone help it make sense.

The point I made was that for the first goal yesterday both of the sixes got dragged out to the right but neither of them had the recovery speed or athleticism to drop in and cover the space Bradley had vacated, once Brighton beat the counter press. Henderson had that kind of athleticism in spade loads.

The point I am making is that in possession Endo and Macca is a really good combination. However, as a pairing against a counter-attack their lack of pace is an issue. Are you really disagreeing with that?

I also came up with a solution, which would be to play Endo as more of a single pivot. To play Szobozslai as a right side 8 because he is more athletic and to play Macca as a hybrid 6/8 on the left. That would work because Gomez is hugely athletic and Virgil is basically Virgil. Given our next big game is United away. A game in which they are likely to target the right side of our defence. I think it is a sensible discussion point.

However, that kind of reasoned debate isn't allowed because pointing out a weakness in Endo's game simply isn't allowed.

[BigCDump]

Endo winning headers like a boss again yesterday, against a supposedly big team. It almost feels like his heading bravery is rubbing off on some of the others. Salah and Elliot mainly.

[BCCC]

The point I made was that for the first goal yesterday both of the sixes got dragged out to the right but neither of them had the recovery speed or athleticism to drop in and cover the space Bradley had vacated, once Brighton beat the counter press. Henderson had that kind of athleticism in spade loads.

The point I am making is that in possession Endo and Macca is a really good combination. However, as a pairing against a counter-attack their lack of pace is an issue. Are you really disagreeing with that?

I also came up with a solution, which would be to play Endo as more of a single pivot. To play Szobozslai as a right side 8 because he is more athletic and to play Macca as a hybrid 6/8 on the left. That would work because Gomez is hugely athletic and Virgil is basically Virgil. Given our next big game is United away. A game in which they are likely to target the right side of our defence. I think it is a sensible discussion point.

However, that kind of reasoned debate isn't allowed because pointing out a weakness in Endo's game simply isn't allowed.

Have you applied for the manager's job yet?

[vblfc]

Endo winning headers like a boss again yesterday, against a supposedly big team. It almost feels like his heading bravery is rubbing off on some of the others. Salah and Elliot mainly.

agree - He wins a lot of headers. If we go for Amorim next season could see Endo dropping back as a 3rd CB

[SamLad]

Not totally true - he does great work on certain threads and generally analyzes things well.

However, he can't ever admit that he's wrong if someone challenges him on a proposition/statement. Never. You'll end up with 15 more pages of debate, such that the original point will be long gone, and he'll have "won" an argument on a tangential/wholly new point and/or worn you out so that you stop responding.

maybe so, but damned if I'm gonna sift through dozens and dozens  of repetitive posts to dig it out something that I *might* not be aware of.

[BCCC]

Whilst we're on the Henderson comparison, he wants the ball wherever he is regardless of the space around him. I've never seen him shake his head to refuse possession from the keeper or point to another player.

At the moment it's him and Mac Allister +1 other in midfield.

[SamLad]

Whilst we're on the Henderson comparison, he wants the ball wherever he is regardless of the space around him. I've never seen him shake his head to refuse possession from the keeper or point to another player.

At the moment it's him and Mac Allister +1 other in midfield.

definitely.  as someone said earlier, hopefully Baj will be 100% healthy and match fit soon and we'll have great options for the 6.

[Eeyore]

Have you applied for the manager's job yet?

Is that really the best comeback you can think of?

No wonder we have lost so many knowledgeable posters like PoP.

[Knight]

Is that really the best comeback you can think of?

No wonder we have lost so many knowledgeable posters like PoP.

Whilst I think you’re far too harsh on Endo AL and you don’t always debate in good faith this is true. There is on occasion a really unhelpful allergy to robust and reasoned out discussion on the positives and negatives of our players and tactics on this forum.

[BCCC]

Is that really the best comeback you can think of?

No wonder we have lost so many knowledgeable posters like PoP.

It wasn't a comeback, it was a question.

I've given you my reasons as to why I think you're talking bollocks I just don't need a half page monologue of inaccurate comparisons to get my point across.

Why don't you try looking at the positives in his game and what he has clearly brought to the side rather than nit picking detail that basically he's not even 80% responsible for.

[Draex]

The point I made was that for the first goal yesterday both of the sixes got dragged out to the right but neither of them had the recovery speed or athleticism to drop in and cover the space Bradley had vacated, once Brighton beat the counter press. Henderson had that kind of athleticism in spade loads.

The point I am making is that in possession Endo and Macca is a really good combination. However, as a pairing against a counter-attack their lack of pace is an issue. Are you really disagreeing with that?

I also came up with a solution, which would be to play Endo as more of a single pivot. To play Szobozslai as a right side 8 because he is more athletic and to play Macca as a hybrid 6/8 on the left. That would work because Gomez is hugely athletic and Virgil is basically Virgil. Given our next big game is United away. A game in which they are likely to target the right side of our defence. I think it is a sensible discussion point.

However, that kind of reasoned debate isn't allowed because pointing out a weakness in Endo's game simply isn't allowed.

In a perfect world would Mac Allister and Endo have more pace? Of course, but they don't yet Klopp wanted both of them and continues to play both of them. Nearly every player in the world has a weakness, there is never a perfect way to play which negates all of them, however the key (in my opinion) is ball rentention from our front three being better. Their goal comes from Salah cheaply giving the ball away when our team is set to attack, this means we are countered at pace and nearly any midfielder in the world would struggle to get back.

If we're looking at solutions, I do like the 433 with Szobo - Endo - Mac Allister, I don't like Gomez inverting though, I thought he caused a lot of our problems because he inverts but is more of a hinderence than an extra man in build up.

People got stick for questioning Konate playing 90mins for France but for me he is absolutely key in making sure our right side is solid, he dominates so much space, so having him back for Utd is the biggest need.

[SamLad]

looks like Al has selected a passage of play (their goal) to beat Endo up, again, ad fucking nauseum.

how about another passage of play?  on 30-31 mins Endo anticipated and tracked Welbeck as he moved into scoring position to receive a pass on the left side (Kell's left) of our box, and put a hammer shot into the side netting.

the comms I listened to were full of praise for Endo's smarts and positioning, forcing Welbeck wide.  what Endo did was very similar to Virgil vs Spurs at Anfield a few years ago when he was one-on-one with some Spurs player who ended up blasting well wide, and the comms then swooned over it.

I'm pretty sure Al has me on Ignore so he won't see this, not that I care mind you. 

[ScottScott]

Why people still engage with Al is beyond me. He's the biggest fucking WUM on here. Either with players he hates or with the owners. He moves goalposts constantly and frankly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about

I'd say he is one of the biggest reasons we have lost great posters over the years, turning threads into cesspits

[Samie]

Al is like a box of chocolate. You don;t know what you're going to get.

[Eeyore]

looks like Al has selected a passage of play (their goal) to beat Endo up, again, ad fucking nauseum.

how about another passage of play?  on 30-31 mins Endo anticipated and tracked Welbeck as he moved into scoring position to receive a pass on the left side (Kell's left) of our box, and put a hammer shot into the side netting.

the comms I listened to were full of praise for Endo's smarts and positioning, forcing Welbeck wide.  what Endo did was very similar to Virgil vs Spurs at Anfield a few years ago when he was one-on-one with some Spurs player who ended up blasting well wide, and the comms then swooned over it.

I'm pretty sure Al has me on Ignore so he won't see this, not that I care mind you. 

Firstly Van Dijk was facing a 2v1 and actively blocked the pass to Son which forced Sissoko to shoot. It is a poor comparison.

Secondly, Endo doesn't force him wide. It is a good covering run by Endo but he doesn't have the pace to force Welbeck wide or get in a block. You brought it up so I will show you why.

Wellbeck picks the ball up in line with the 18 yard box.



Wellbeck isn't pushed wide he actually comes inside by about 10 yards. As can be seen here.



Endo has done well to read the situation and to stop Wellbeck cutting in even more but ultimately he hasn't forced him wide and he hasn't got a block in.

The build up to the chance was similar to their goal. Bradley ends up pressing really high up the pitch. Mo stays high and Macca has to try and drop in but Wellbeck just runs away from him. That forces Endo to come across so we end up with both our sixes on that side. In defence of Macca he had done about 30 seconds of solid pressing before Wellbeck ran away from him.

We end up with our right-sided centre-back Quansah facing up their left winger and our left-sided 6 dragged across. It is common theme and isn't an attack on either Endo or Macca more an observation that they as a combination they are an issue against counter attacks. Something that is magnified by how we are setting up.

[afc tukrish]

Parodeyore...

[Eeyore]

In a perfect world would Mac Allister and Endo have more pace? Of course, but they don't yet Klopp wanted both of them and continues to play both of them. Nearly every player in the world has a weakness, there is never a perfect way to play which negates all of them, however the key (in my opinion) is ball rentention from our front three being better. Their goal comes from Salah cheaply giving the ball away when our team is set to attack, this means we are countered at pace and nearly any midfielder in the world would struggle to get back.

It is the combination of them both having a lack of pace as a pairing that is concerning. I think the ball retention doesn't really fit with why we conceded the goal. Salah plays a very early pass. We aren't that high up the pitch as a team and when Brighton get on the ball we have 8 players behind the ball.

It wasn't so much a case of Brighton countering. They don't. The first pass goes backwards and we counter-press. The problem is what happens when they play through the press. Macca and Endo don't have the legs to get back in and they end up with a 2v1 on Quansah. 

If we're looking at solutions, I do like the 433 with Szobo - Endo - Mac Allister, I don't like Gomez inverting though, I thought he caused a lot of our problems because he inverts but is more of a hinderence than an extra man in build up.

People got stick for questioning Konate playing 90mins for France but for me he is absolutely key in making sure our right side is solid, he dominates so much space, so having him back for Utd is the biggest need.

I agree that Ibou is a big miss on that side. With Gomez though him playing inside allows the two sixes to play in a lopsided formation that should give us more cover on that side. With Gomez as a traditional left-back or even as a wing back then Endo's starting position would be further to the left.

Macca and Endo are doing really well in possession and Endo as a six allows Macca more freedom to push up higher at times. However for me if we are going to win the League we need to find a way of improving their ability to cope with counterattacks and teams breaking into the space Bradley vacates. We absolutely dominated the game against Brighton but for me they got in down our right far often especially in the first half hour.

[jepovic]

Endo pushing up is part of our high press, and obviously its something Endo has been instructed to do. Its a calculated risk by Klopp, and so far it has paid off. You can dislike it, but its not Endos decision

[RedDeadRejection]

I generally like Als input but Endo is a huge huge blind spot. What I don't understand is why he's adamant he's right and you know...Klopp isn't. It's bonkers 😂

[Eeyore]

Endo pushing up is part of our high press, and obviously its something Endo has been instructed to do. Its a calculated risk by Klopp, and so far it has paid off. You can dislike it, but its not Endos decision

I agree completely. Going back to the first goal yesterday. Macca and Endo have done the right thing by counter-pressing and attempting to win the ball back high up the pitch. The issue is what happens when the counter press is beaten.

For me, it is a cumulative effect. Bradley pushing up, Mo being allowed to cheat and Quansah at right centre back combined with Endo and Macca not being the quickest means it is a gamble. My concern is playing against United next weekend on a big pitch and them looking to use Garnacho and Rashford in behind the right-hand side of our defence.

[Eeyore]

I generally like Als input but Endo is a huge huge blind spot. What I don't understand is why he's adamant he's right and you know...Klopp isn't. It's bonkers 😂

I am not saying that Klopp is wrong. We only have one natural 6 in Endo. A natural 6 who is better playing in a double pivot. In most games what Endo and Macca give us in possession is going to outweigh their weakness against a counterattack.

It is all about compromises. It is a bit like Salah being allowed the freedom not to track back. What he gives us staying high up the pitch outweighs him not having drop in and double up defensively.

[JerseyKloppite]

I agree completely. Going back to the first goal yesterday. Macca and Endo have done the right thing by counter-pressing and attempting to win the ball back high up the pitch. The issue is what happens when the counter press is beaten.

For me, it is a cumulative effect. Bradley pushing up, Mo being allowed to cheat and Quansah at right centre back combined with Endo and Macca not being the quickest means it is a gamble. My concern is playing against United next weekend on a big pitch and them looking to use Garnacho and Rashford in behind the right-hand side of our defence.

I take the point but it’s a very hard ask for them both to press high up the pitch to get the ball back but then also to have the recovery pace to track back and win it back when the opposition counter. I’m not saying that there aren’t players who can do that but in a Klopp side you’d have to be an exceptionally physical player to do it, and keep running for 90 minutes. Maybe that’s what we thought we’d be buying when we were offering £110m for Caicedo as it’s the kind of player who could hugely elevate a Klopp system.

[Eeyore]

I take the point but it’s a very hard ask for them both to press high up the pitch to get the ball back but then also to have the recovery pace to track back and win it back when the opposition counter. I’m not saying that there aren’t players who can do that but in a Klopp side you’d have to be an exceptionally physical player to do it, and keep running for 90 minutes. Maybe that’s what we thought we’d be buying when we were offering £110m for Caicedo as it’s the kind of player who could hugely elevate a Klopp system.

I agree but then look at the profile of player we were being linked with.

Tchouaméni, Camavinga, Bellingham. Then Caicedo, Thuram and Lavia. I think we were definitely looking for physical monsters. Szobozslai has that kind of running power and energy. I really like Endo and think he has done exceptionally well and has played a full part in our success this season.

The issue though is that like a one-day cricket side you can only hide so many fielders who lack athleticism. Macca has been absolutely sensational this year. Players like Endo and Elliott and have been unsung heroes this season. My point is about how many midfield players you can play together who lack athleticism.

A midfield of Endo, Macca and Elliott is always going to be a problem. For the majority of games we can get away with Endo and Macca but for some games I think we need to make adjustments. Personally next Sunday I would like to see us swap Macca and Szobo over to protect our right hand side against the counter.

[ademuzzy]

I miss PoP. Probably my favourite poster on these boards, in terms of analysis. Will he come back? That’s the question.

[RedDeadRejection]

I miss PoP. Probably my favourite poster on these boards, in terms of analysis. Will he come back? That’s the question.

He may PoP in.

[RedG13]

Passing on Gross means Quansah faces a 2v1. It doesn't matter what zone it is, you don't stop running and allow an overload. Endo either has to come across and face up Adingra or track Gross. He does neither.

No just have this all wrong. He then take Quansah space.
His zone to cover in front of the cbs and in the right spot. You pass along runner it always ZOne princples not man there. in the spot for Adingra to cut back into. Endo tracked Gross till he passed him off
You saying he didnt something super wrong when they gave up a 5% chance of a goal. They covered that correctly. Biggest issue was neither Dom or Virgil clearing the danger the most. Virgil clearance was blocked(Im pretty sure) and Dom made a huge recover run.
Watching it back the only Midfielder that messed was Mac Allister who could not get in front of Adingra. He slowed for a second and was on his back instead of in front of him.
The defense was pretty good overall, Welbeck just had an elite finish. I mena he the ball on the volley from 17 yards out as a rocket into the corner.
Liverpool had an Elite defensive game vs Brighton there was 1 shot over .05 Xg. Which was Lallana in the 86th minute which came off a Diaz turnover

[rossipersempre]

No wonder we have lost so many knowledgeable posters like PoP.

PoP confidently predicted Rodgers would end up managing Barcelona, with Pascoe at his side.

Instead, he's treading water back in the Scottish league, and Pascoe is working at a motorway service station in north Wales.

[Eeyore]

PoP confidently predicted Rodgers would end up managing Barcelona, with Pascoe at his side.

Instead, he's treading water back in the Scottish league, and Pascoe is working at a motorway service station in north Wales.

To be fair that was a bit of an extravagant claim regarding our managerial team. Especially with there being no motorways in North Wales. He probably meant a Scran Van on the A55.

To be fair mate. I prefer posters like PoP and yourself  who give their opinion and then back it up. The way you did with Alonso. Much better to go out on a limb and then back it up with a reasoned argument than just snipe from the snides the way far too many posters do.

[classycarra]

what Endo did was very similar to Virgil vs Spurs at Anfield a few years ago when he was one-on-one with some Spurs player who ended up blasting well wide, and the comms then swooned over it.

there's been some mad shouts in this thread, but this might take the biscuit!

about the only thing in common between those events were that both had players in red running towards their goal, and there was a football

[Eeyore]

No just have this all wrong. He then take Quansah space.
His zone to cover in front of the cbs and in the right spot. You pass along runner it always ZOne princples not man there. in the spot for Adingra to cut back into. Endo tracked Gross till he passed him off
You saying he didnt something super wrong when they gave up a 5% chance of a goal. They covered that correctly. Biggest issue was neither Dom or Virgil clearing the danger the most. Virgil clearance was blocked(Im pretty sure) and Dom made a huge recover run.
Watching it back the only Midfielder that messed was Mac Allister who could not get in front of Adingra. He slowed for a second and was on his back instead of in front of him.
The defense was pretty good overall, Welbeck just had an elite finish. I mena he the ball on the volley from 17 yards out as a rocket into the corner.
Liverpool had an Elite defensive game vs Brighton there was 1 shot over .05 Xg. Which was Lallana in the 86th minute which came off a Diaz turnover

Sorry, but you aren't making sense there. Either Endo passes on Gross to Quansah and fronts up Adingra or he tracks Gross and leaves Quansah to deal with Adingra. The zones quite simply don't matter. You can't pass on a player if it means your teammate is left a 2v1 whilst you remain passive.

Agree about Macca. He simply doesn't have the athleticism to cope with that kind of recovery run. Pairing him with Endo exacerbates that problem.

[RedG13]

Sorry, but you aren't making sense there. Either Endo passes on Gross to Quansah and fronts up Adingra or he tracks Gross and leaves Quansah to deal with Adingra. The zones quite simply don't matter. You can't pass on a player if it means your teammate is left a 2v1 whilst you remain passive.

Agree about Macca. He simply doesn't have the athleticism to cope with that kind of recovery run. Pairing him with Endo exacerbates that problem.

Im confused why Mac Allister and Szoboszlai switched sided. Szoboszlai can cover that side much better which is always the side teams target regardless who at RB. Mac allister fine everywhere. Szoboszlai i preferred on the right. It hasnt really cost anything but it an interesting change.
Quansah goes with Gross and doesnt play offside trap Endo in his spot to cover cutting inside that why you pass off.
Defense how liverpool play is mostly delay untill an action and force bad shot which was done all game. Lallana one was like the only thing I would say a Half chance.

[SamLad]

there's been some mad shouts in this thread, but this might take the biscuit!

about the only thing in common between those events were that both had players in red running towards their goal, and there was a football

I'm just quoting the comms mate

[Eeyore]

Im confused why Mac Allister and Szoboszlai switched sided. Szoboszlai can cover that side much better which is always the side teams target regardless who at RB. Mac allister fine everywhere. Szoboszlai i preferred on the right. It hasnt really cost anything but it an interesting change.
Quansah goes with Gross and doesnt play offside trap Endo in his spot to cover cutting inside that why you pass off.
Defense how liverpool play is mostly delay untill an action and force bad shot which was done all game. Lallana one was like the only thing I would say a Half chance.

I think with Brighton having big slow centrebacks we wanted Macca on the right to feed Salah when we were in possession. It worked a treat but left us vulnerable against counterattacks. I think against United if they are both fit then Szobozslai will be used on the right and we will play more of a 1-2 midfield.

[Bobinhood]

How about we just keep the ball and never let the mancs touch it. that should solve the mooted problem with the counter.

Dont mean to snipe from the sides here but ive watched the game back and endo was excellent throughout. I also still think he's faster than fabhino ever was. The attention given to his lack of pace may be theoretically problematic in a few specific instances  but its more than offset by his size of heart and his snap of tackle and his offer of show and his finding of pass and of course his guard of mouth.

We score more than 3 for every one we give up, we are a close second in fewest conceded, its less than 1 a game against and god knows how many of those were quick counters badly aggravated by endo being caught upfield without cover but top of head i think its zero.  He's scored more goals than his lack of pace has cost us. everything else is free.

Chelsea have conceded almost twice as many as we have and Caciedos studied indifference to doing anything but jogging around an invisible rectangle doing one touch layoffs back to the goalie if somebody's dumb enough to pass him the ball has contributed greatly to that cause. Our situation is not so very bad really. Weve also got Bajectic which people will soon remember is a very good thing.

[Eeyore]

How about we just keep the ball and never let the mancs touch it. that should solve the mooted problem with the counter.

Dont mean to snipe from the sides here but ive watched the game back and endo was excellent throughout. I also still think he's faster than fabhino ever was. The attention given to his lack of pace may be theoretically problematic in a few specific instances  but its more than offset by his size of heart and his snap of tackle and his offer of show and his finding of pass and of course his guard of mouth.

We score more than 3 for every one we give up, we are a close second in fewest conceded, its less than 1 a game against and god knows how many of those were quick counters badly aggravated by endo being caught upfield without cover but top of head i think its zero.  He's scored more goals than his lack of pace has cost us. everything else is free.

Chelsea have conceded almost twice as many as we have and Caciedos studied indifference to doing anything but jogging around an invisible rectangle doing one touch layoffs back to the goalie if somebody's dumb enough to pass him the ball has contributed greatly to that cause. Our situation is not so very bad really. Weve also got Bajectic which people will soon remember is a very good thing.

Fabinho was fine though until Henderson lost his athleticism and the likes of Gini left. He also had telescopic legs and was unreal at going to ground and winning the ball.  A good example of how important the midfield combination is how much we improved as a midfield when the likes of Bajcetic and Jones came into the side.

[RedG13]

I think with Brighton having big slow centrebacks we wanted Macca on the right to feed Salah when we were in possession. It worked a treat but left us vulnerable against counterattacks. I think against United if they are both fit then Szobozslai will be used on the right and we will play more of a 1-2 midfield.

It been Mac Allister on right the last 2 games it just an interesting change in the middle of the season.
Might be part because of Bradley too.
Brighton really didnt create much that game either way

[Cozzymoto]

Is he injured?

[BarryCrocker]

Is he injured?

“He got a knock in the last game so we will have to see what we do with him for tomorrow.” - Klopp