Author Topic: Systems - Mindgames  (Read 29911 times)

royhendo

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #40 on: February 4, 2013, 02:56:12 pm »
...

It's maybe off piste but the bit in Bounce that I'd liken it to is the part where Syed gets a new coach from China, and the coach completely rebuilds his game and technique from the ground up. Great book that isn't it?

Harinder - really interesting posts - I missed them first time around.

Offline Adamski LFC

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #41 on: February 4, 2013, 03:24:46 pm »
It's maybe off piste but the bit in Bounce that I'd liken it to is the part where Syed gets a new coach from China, and the coach completely rebuilds his game and technique from the ground up. Great book that isn't it?

Good shout the advanced training techniques he talks about, truly great book, have read that, the DR S.P. one and one other that ties in but is way too self-help but has good ideas, see later. 

Up the challenge is I guess how I would talk about it, a player whose performance is levelling off, clearly needs something else, advanced training, tactics, or strategy.  This is what we have seen in Downing, another level to his game which must come from him transforming what he believes he is doing so he can step it up a notch.  Self-realisation gives the tools then to improve.

Anyway, this other book is called Head Strong by Tony Buzan.  It talks about a kind of self-NLP but gave me the belief that the mind can be changed, refining that with the Dr S P book and Bounce turns a lot of things on their heads. 
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #42 on: February 4, 2013, 04:18:17 pm »
Cheers for the replies everyone I've read through them all and they're great. I'll work through gradually.

Good read BP mate, really good. I'd like to ask you what do you think about what you've written? Do you have an opinion about the 'system and use of arrogance'? Is your post more about your view of how Rodgers might proceed? Or is it about system over club 'tradition' is the way to go? The reason I ask is that several of the above posts have talked about the variable extra intangible factors that clubs have: reputation, crowd, tradition, media expectation, opponent expectation and so on and I wonder if you're saying we need more arrogance, or more confidence or that, as your title suggest, the mind needs a system..?
Thanks mate. I guess the genesis of the piece in some ways is how do we build a new dynasty? It feels like we've spent 20 years trying to regain the old one, and around us there are teams like Dortmund building what will clearly be known as some form of dynasty in years to come. They don't seem to be doing it by looking at their past, and they seem to be doing it quite quickly and effectively. My research made me feel like the key to that was a system, and players motivated to make the system work. Different teams had different backgrounds, traditions, environments, but they all had this notion of a 'greater good'. The way they are playing is new and special and worthy. In fact I feel that the best teams- whilst they can absolutely utilize those variables (crowd, media etc)- are actually the ones best equipped to work in spite of them and stick as close to the system as possible. It's ideal to stick to the system because it is perfection as planned by the manager. If you have the right manager, then you have the right plan. The next question is obviously how do you motivate players around that?

The Liverpool Way is relevant to fans, because our fanbase (as a whole) has the shared experience of creating and living through it. The 'commonality' Boltersdorf mentions that makes it have substance. But...

None of our players or staff have really experienced it, so how can it ever truly mean anything to them? We try to make our players an echo of Dalglish and co. Perhaps we need to remember to motivate them to be special in their own right. It will only ever get harder to explain to players what Liverpool stood for decades ago (if we consider that to be the pinnacle of that 'Way' and what we're striving for). Nobody wants second hand success. Each year the imitation will get paler.

Where the Liverpool Way is important is helping the fans to be arbiters of who (board and managers) are equipped to do that, and the environment under which a new dynasty is built. We needed a crusade, I think Rodgers has given us that. The issue is keeping and encouraging everyone to fight the good fight, and there's some other great posts on that here that need my attention with regards to that...
« Last Edit: February 4, 2013, 04:22:32 pm by BreakfastPercy »

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #43 on: February 4, 2013, 05:28:35 pm »
I remember thinking early last season that Downing was playing pretty well - sort of like he is now; tidy, hard working, occasionally threatening but overall, good useful 'team' play. But there was an undercurrent it seemed in the media that he had zero goals, zero assists. Then there were a couple of games where he seemed to get 'selfish' and was trying too hard to score, specifically, and appearing to get down on himself - for himself - when Carroll or Suarez missed a 'chance' that he had 'created', robbing him of an assist.

In terms of the OP here, this stuff shouldn't really have mattered - Downing was playing quite well. He was contributing; the team were doing reasonably well in that period, in a 'new' manager's first full season. Was this because Downing was dependent on performance driven motivation? I'm not so sure.

Aha! But you see I would say that is very much being performance-motivated.

I love the various bits Roy mentions about this idea of moving the goalposts (Rui Faria etc). Redefining what talent, form, fitness are. What you want is to lay out what a player needs to do and motivate them as much as you can to carry out that plan. When players see the strings and make a connection between motivation and the plan, then a change to one can effect the other.

There's some good stuff on visualization in the Steve Peters thread about Chris Hoy* where visualization allows him to anticipate difficulties, prepare for them, and not let them affect his motivation. A change in the plan doesn't affect his motivation; a change in his emotions doesn't affect the plan. He was delayed to the starting gate, and a weaker Chris Hoy's 'Chimp' brain (as Adamski LFC mentions in one of a few great posts) might have taken over. His motivating factors are now anger, fear, annoyance, etc (unstable emotions) instead of 'make your family proud' (example), and that might make him ride differently and adjust the 'plan'. That's not what you want, because the best plan has already been designed in advance, not by a pissed off Chris Hoy ten seconds before the race.

Downing let criticism of his form- and therefore his performance- affect his objectives and executing those objectives. When it went wrong for Downing; the 'what' changed the 'why'. His performance (and criticism of) was determining why he was doing what he was. It's then a spiral. That's too variable to be ideal.

Hope that makes sense in where I'm coming from!

Some really good points on Dalglish, perhaps someone else might care to jump in?

* http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=300222.0

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #44 on: February 4, 2013, 06:55:47 pm »
Redmark

That is an excellent post mate. Fucking excellent.

It's the point I was trying to make, but far far better. I couldn't agree more with your points about kenny.

Rodgers understands the modern version of "pass and move " and how to get young men without a fucking clue to play it. Kenny never really did. He got absolutely everything else about the club and the fans and Liverpool the city, but the football was magic I feel. Paisley and shanks, knew how to implement the system,to construct the machine, Dalglish was simply at the helm for its most perfect manifestation (in my eyes anyway the 88 side) without ever really being able to understand or explain how it worked. It's a bit like when I humm a wonderful tune, you'll all be able to guess what it is but it won't be anything like the original.

When that first dawned on me last year, it was hard to take. One of my illusions was shattered. Rodgers is the real deal though, he's the heir to the boot room.

And I think the reason that we look back as a club so much, is because we all feel that we were plying this modern football a long time before anybody else. The fact that shanks didn't write a coaching manual, doesn't mean that he was any less of a visionary than michaels, it just means nobody apart from the inner sanctum got to know the methods. That's why Rodgers came with his Tikki Takker "bollocks" because he new as we know that it had always lived here anyway. That's why it makes me laugh that these players from the 80's can not see that they're missing the point with the "Rodgers didn't invent passing" barbs. It's like they dropped on late, with "hold on a minute! We used to play like this" it was never a secret, it's why Rodgers took this job, it's why the yanks picked him for this job. It's a new old system that fits our collective memory, but its been studiously codified to be taught to babies who just wouldn't and couldn't know that this is "the Liverpool way"

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #45 on: February 4, 2013, 07:15:38 pm »
Rodgers understands the modern version of "pass and move " and how to get young men without a fucking clue to play it. Kenny never really did. He got absolutely everything else about the club and the fans and Liverpool the city, but the football was magic I feel. Paisley and shanks, knew how to implement the system,to construct the machine, Dalglish was simply at the helm for its most perfect manifestation (in my eyes anyway the 88 side) without ever really being able to understand or explain how it worked. It's a bit like when I humm a wonderful tune, you'll all be able to guess what it is but it won't be anything like the original.

Perhaps my version of that might adjust your opinion just a little and restore a bit of that image. I think Kenny is an expert within the concepts of confidence and arrogance. I believe that we wouldn't find anyone better at the carrot and stick approach. Now when Kenny was first in charge the players knew the 'Liverpool Way', had a bond with each other, and he could reference those things and use them without ever having to create them. That we no longer have that is detriment to us not him. Timing was fortunate more in the sense the squad was set-up perfectly to take advantage of his qualities as a manager and a man.

Rodger's notion of a System has bought us all a little time off from dependency on results. Kenny is as good as anyone at making us feel good about ourselves, but perhaps we as fans needed to get away from success-dependency like the players? Look for other motivations (progress, youth development, style) instead of letting the bad results (performance) change our plan every year.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #46 on: February 4, 2013, 08:50:21 pm »
Spot on. It's been a relief to stop chasing title this year. And as regards to kenny I came back in to edit my post above. It sounds like in hindsight I don't think kenny had any great input into that side. And of course I don't think that. Anybody can see what a wonderful calming influence he would be, and what a fantastic man manager he wold be. Fucking hell I'd walk through brick walls just to get the piss taken out of me by him.

And of course the inference is that he was the perfect man at the right place at the right time for something special, but he couldn't do it from scratch. That too is a little unfair, because of course he did do it all from scratch. He created the Blackburn side that won the title on a sunny afternoon at Anfield adding another piece of magic to his legend. But that wasn't a Liverpool side, that wasn't the beauty of the 88 side re-invented, that was Kenny putting together a title winning side from scratch. It was a brutish monster and it wouldn't have been welcome at Anfield, not by me anyway. From the day he left the first time my favourite team is still the Evans one with fowler and collymore up front, that one still possessed some of the 88 DNA . I never liked Houlliers sides and Rafa teams rarely gave me the buzz, although there was maybe 7 months of genuine genuine quality.

So now here we are with Rodgers re-inventing the wheel, and I'm loving it. Just hope he is allowed to keep adding the spokes, because I feel sure that this boy knows what a wheel looks like. For 20 odd years we have been presented with slightly less than circular objects and had to painfully watch them gradually fall off the wagon.


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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #47 on: February 5, 2013, 12:54:25 am »
It will be interesting to see what part the media will play in our search for an identity -  we wont have a fair playing field - we'll have the david brent malarkey and we'll have the boring tag that dogged Rafa - we'll have the idjits slagging off zonal marking or (in my case, being contrary mary about  'death by football')  and we'll have the vested interests in the status quo

Assuming anything worthwhile will be difficult - Rodgers will need time - Dalglish had history on his side , Rafa a champions league, Houllier a treble - it will be a tough ask and you have to suspect that he'll need results sooner rather than later - he seems slightly desparate to see the progress he wants to see - not surprising I guess  but there is no sign of him having learned from his pronouncement before the villa game  - this is presumably down to media pressure that simply didn't exist on the same scale back in the day

if we are to have a belief in a method then it would seem fairly crucial that the method delivers results otherwise it just becomes a religion.......

under Houllier we turned a corner every game and eventually just went in circles so BR needs to be wary about claiming too much too soon - mind games indeed
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Offline scimitarsam

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #48 on: February 5, 2013, 05:07:28 am »
Tremendous OP, absolute quality replies...the Systems threads continue to surprise, enlighten and educate.

A lot of these concepts are not the easiest to grasp, at least not for me personally...read, re-read, read-again. I have absolutely nothing of value to add in respect to the details of the "Mindgames".

I hope BR, the other backroom staff and LFC management are personally spending a lot of time with Dr Steve Peters because it can only help improve them as mangers, leaders and coaches.

I'm so intrigued to understand Brendan's knowledge of the "Mindgames" subject, just how well versed is he I wonder? How conscious is he of not only implementing his playing system but perhaps more importantly building a true 21st century "Liverpool Way" (I can use that now, it's not taboo in this thread?!!).

BR claims that he "educates" rather than "trains" players. When I first read that quote last summer I had images of him explaining explicit details of his playing system during training on the pitches of Melwood. After reading this and the other Systems threads I really hope that every LFC player and backroom team member is spending routine and consistent time in a Melwood classroom. That's how important these facets are, they must be 100% understood by all concerned and to ensure that these concepts are fully grasped a classroom environment would be a must.

Mods, can we force all current and new RAWK members to read these Systems threads?...Perhaps that would reduce our population of "Chimp" posters!

Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting.
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Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #49 on: February 5, 2013, 05:54:13 am »
I read them, each and every one of them and they truly are informative. I find myself very difficult to contribute anything since I realize how little I know.

The point about Dalglish being a brilliant man manager but less of a manager being able to educate players who knew nothing about the way of Liverpool "pass and move" is a fascinating one. Intuitively I kind of thought this but wasn't sure how to phrase it. I am glad someone else expressed it better than I could. The sides Kenny sent out last season they just seemed different to the side I saw play under Kenny the first time around. There just wasn;t that same aura around last season's team as they was with the side of the 1980s. That regardless of whoever we played, we knew they would be given a very difficult game indeed regardless of however they decided to play.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 06:02:35 am by Mr_Shane »

Offline jay.taller.than.spearing

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #50 on: February 5, 2013, 06:22:27 am »
I have read one Steve Peter's book and it is a very good allegory recognising not all emotion is helpful.  He talks about the fact that if you feel an emotion with no logical reason to feel it, it is not the human talking but the rabid emotional, intuitive inner being, he dubs the chimp.  The human in us still has emotions, but not the manic depressive extremities.

Interstingly, this reactionary response is what we see in players and posters.  The human is thoughful, considered, the knee-jerk is chimp.  The system, which inlcudes working hard, pride in the club and the shirt, leads to the human winning more, a true buffer from snide comments and bad media, so no surprises at the interviews from the players after talking with Steve.

The crowd do not provide a twelfth man BUT do activate a higher level of pride in the system, the club, the shirt and fans.  This higher level, however temporary can make a good player great, but then a bad crowd makes a good player, mediocre.  We cannot rely on the crowd so much as they can exhibit the reactionary response to a mistake.  Separate the player from these highs and lows and you can still have fire in your belly.  Massive fear, stupendous anger, huge frustration are all symptoms of the chimp.  Pride, Patience, and I guess Love, are all descruibed as virtuous and decidely human as not relying in the immediate here and now.

In summary, a truly stupdendous OP with some cracking follow ups, supremely well explained.  The system is not an emotioless machine, more a long term human project to build something you may have heard before, a bastion of invincibility.

How many times after a draw or loss are we now going to see this used to describe the usual suspects I wonder (in the after match threads) .
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #51 on: February 5, 2013, 11:58:15 am »
I read them, each and every one of them and they truly are informative. I find myself very difficult to contribute anything since I realize how little I know.

The point about Dalglish being a brilliant man manager but less of a manager being able to educate players who knew nothing about the way of Liverpool "pass and move" is a fascinating one. Intuitively I kind of thought this but wasn't sure how to phrase it. I am glad someone else expressed it better than I could. The sides Kenny sent out last season they just seemed different to the side I saw play under Kenny the first time around. There just wasn;t that same aura around last season's team as they was with the side of the 1980s. That regardless of whoever we played, we knew they would be given a very difficult game indeed regardless of however they decided to play.

Kenny is without doubt a great manager. He's done everything to prove it. But the circumstances were very different this last time compared to the '80s. Back then we had stability and his job was to keep it going and make a odd tweak. A couple of years ago we had gone through civil war. That's tough for any manager to deal with, not just Kenny. Perhaps it's even more difficult for someone who has been with the club before, when things were different.

There's no doubt he made mistakes. Some big ones too. But I'm not certain what task we gave him. Was his task to finish top four? And now it's to build for the future? Who was in charge of transfers? I'm not convinced we knew. I remember Kenny saying they'd brought back smiles on people's faces, which suggests that his task was to unite the club and take it from there. And then comes the "forget the cups, top four is everything" from the top. Followed by the beauty contest selection of the new manager and the change of the structure (no DoF). And now we're back to a situation where top four isn't everything. It doesn't appear we have had one line of thought here. We've been searching.

Kenny was the easy pick, but not the right choice to take over. For many reasons. I still think the right role for him would have been DoF. Our Cruyff. Now we gambled and failed, we dealt with it poorly and as a consequence we've lost him (for some time at least). We used a long term solution for the short term. I think Kenny could have been incredibly valuable for us "behind the scenes" and I hope he returns for that kind of job some time in the future.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #52 on: February 5, 2013, 12:30:33 pm »
Kenny is without doubt a great manager. He's done everything to prove it. But the circumstances were very different this last time compared to the '80s. Back then we had stability and his job was to keep it going and make a odd tweak. A couple of years ago we had gone through civil war. That's tough for any manager to deal with, not just Kenny. Perhaps it's even more difficult for someone who has been with the club before, when things were different.

There's no doubt he made mistakes. Some big ones too. But I'm not certain what task we gave him. Was his task to finish top four? And now it's to build for the future? Who was in charge of transfers? I'm not convinced we knew. I remember Kenny saying they'd brought back smiles on people's faces, which suggests that his task was to unite the club and take it from there. And then comes the "forget the cups, top four is everything" from the top. Followed by the beauty contest selection of the new manager and the change of the structure (no DoF). And now we're back to a situation where top four isn't everything. It doesn't appear we have had one line of thought here. We've been searching.

Kenny was the easy pick, but not the right choice to take over. For many reasons. I still think the right role for him would have been DoF. Our Cruyff. Now we gambled and failed, we dealt with it poorly and as a consequence we've lost him (for some time at least). We used a long term solution for the short term. I think Kenny could have been incredibly valuable for us "behind the scenes" and I hope he returns for that kind of job some time in the future.

What role would you have seen the DOF fulfilling in those circumstances? FSG would potentially have been hamstrung by their understanding of the managerial set up in the states....



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Offline Adamski LFC

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #53 on: February 5, 2013, 02:13:27 pm »

How many times after a draw or loss are we now going to see this used to describe the usual suspects I wonder (in the after match threads) .

How about you post-reactionarily and your title, description and others just revert to chimp for period of time.  The Signature at the bottom would explain the crime, and I think this would make a good censure of chimp like behaviour.  You could almost completely change the post-match reaction after page 2 for example :-)
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Offline Adamski LFC

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #54 on: February 5, 2013, 03:04:39 pm »
Aha! But you see I would say that is very much being performance-motivated.

Downing let criticism of his form- and therefore his performance- affect his objectives and executing those objectives. When it went wrong for Downing; the 'what' changed the 'why'. His performance (and criticism of) was determining why he was doing what he was. It's then a spiral. That's too variable to be ideal.

Hope that makes sense in where I'm coming from!

Some really good points on Dalglish, perhaps someone else might care to jump in?

* http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=300222.0

To get out of that spiral, Downing needs something separate from individual day-to-day behaviour, such as the system, or family, something distinct to believe in.  The system is at fault then when things don't go to plan, just as it is when we dominate the Multi-Billionaire backed Premier League Champions in their own back yard.

Thinking again about Dr S P (DRSP) and Matthew Syed (MASY), I think I see the practice piece as advanced learning for the the third part of the brain DRSP talks about, the 'computer'.  A good example of this is when you drive to work and 'wake up' when you get there with no knowledge of how you got there.  The computer is a good driver, but unless you have been trained in advanced driving cannot be relied up to react to incidents, where the human steps in, panic, BREAK.

DRSP talks about when you are learining a new skill, you are clumsy and awkward, typically.  As you start to understand it, it moves from the Human part of the brain to the Computer where it contiues to develop and become better.  This is most clearly explained when he talks about choking.  He cites Faldo against Norman on the final hole.  Norman chokes and puts it awry.  Also Novotna at Wimbledon.  DRSP talks about the chimp giving them the fear that made the human doubt their own skills in the computer leaving only the skills they learned in the human brain phase.  This is most evident in Football at the penalty shoot out.  The chimp is on the rampage reliving all the previous ones they have missed and the human skill they left at age 8 is upon them, leaving them woefully prepared for the kick.

I think the really young teams at melwood are phasing out of MASY's world and moving into DRSP's.  Their skills are improving, but as their bodies develop, new skills come to them and strength so they can keep progressing, redefining their technique and broadening skills in the computer.   By giving them, at a young age, a system to follow alongside these other attributes, opens up new avenues of learning and growth in their brain, making new connections between the system and their skills, making for another level of growth.

Mature players, however, seem not to gain too many new skills physically, but tactical undestanding and the connections that makes allows for almost prescient ability.  At its very top the Barcelona middle three are supreme, marrying skills with tactics in a superb way.  You think of Hyppia, and the positions he took up, Molby, Gerrard's long distance passing and of course Lucas, for example.

This is the next learning phase, training and educating the players in the system reaps rewards for chimp management, and the deftness of the player.  Using the chimp management skills can mean more players can achieve this union meaning better players on the pitch and coming through the youth.  I reckon on RAWK we could get together and make a coaching bible between us.  Maybe I would do the foreword as I have no idea player drills and the like.  The closest I got to it was on footy manager!
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 03:06:23 pm by Adamski LFC »
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #55 on: February 5, 2013, 03:10:05 pm »
What role would you have seen the DOF fulfilling in those circumstances? FSG would potentially have been hamstrung by their understanding of the managerial set up in the states....


More of a guiding role. Not as the main negotiatior or stats analyst.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #56 on: February 5, 2013, 07:39:15 pm »
very interesting BreakfastP.  Your ideas have reminded me of the Inner Game books by Tim Gallway.  He looks at performance of sports stars and why some are able to find "the zone" where they truly excel and are immune to exteral influence.  He observed some really great sport stars who just flowed through their game.  He has a simple equation to explain his theory  P=p-i or Performance = potential - interference.  He argues that many good sportstars deal with the  "p" or potential part through training, technique, fitness etc.  The real differentiator for a great performer is managing/controlling the "i" or interference.  This interference is like the voice in your head when you are thinking about what you are doing and brings doubt, upset to criticsm, annoyance with teammates etc.  Gallway argues that this is a massive barrier to performance and really great sportstars have an ability control the interferece (a great golfer ignores the large crowd, an ordinary golfer hears the interference "voice" when watched by 2 people on the first tee).  I remember Jimmy Greaves talking about just knowing he was going to score without thinking, Tiger Woods is famous for being a machine when in the zone.
Of course you need both potential and mindset.  I think this idea really applies to the system we are looking for and it can be mindset that makes us move beyond training the system and into an idea of unconcious team ability.  Not having to think about it. 
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 07:40:54 pm by vblfc »

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #57 on: February 5, 2013, 08:02:06 pm »
Thanks for the OP - a really interesting read and a very good bit of writing, there.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #58 on: February 5, 2013, 10:23:07 pm »
very interesting BreakfastP.  Your ideas have reminded me of the Inner Game books by Tim Gallway.  He looks at performance of sports stars and why some are able to find "the zone" where they truly excel and are immune to exteral influence.  He observed some really great sport stars who just flowed through their game.  He has a simple equation to explain his theory  P=p-i or Performance = potential - interference.  He argues that many good sportstars deal with the  "p" or potential part through training, technique, fitness etc.  The real differentiator for a great performer is managing/controlling the "i" or interference.  This interference is like the voice in your head when you are thinking about what you are doing and brings doubt, upset to criticsm, annoyance with teammates etc.  Gallway argues that this is a massive barrier to performance and really great sportstars have an ability control the interferece (a great golfer ignores the large crowd, an ordinary golfer hears the interference "voice" when watched by 2 people on the first tee).  I remember Jimmy Greaves talking about just knowing he was going to score without thinking, Tiger Woods is famous for being a machine when in the zone.
Of course you need both potential and mindset.  I think this idea really applies to the system we are looking for and it can be mindset that makes us move beyond training the system and into an idea of unconcious team ability.  Not having to think about it. 

and some are able to excel by using those external forces, to lift themselves up potentially beyond their level or maybe substitute it for 'mental dsicipline' - for every Borg or Federer there's a Nastase or McEnroe  for every AC Milan in Istanbul there's a Liverpool - an LFC infront of the standing Kop on a european night or the Ryder Cup or Murray at the Olympics or any number of sports people at the Olympics come to that, who said that the surge of the crowd carried them through or drove them on or gave them the lift they needed

some sports you'd expect to be more dependent on technique, a steady hand, controlling nerves - Golf is one such but speak to Poulter about external influences - is his failure to win  a major due to being unable to exclude influences or is his ability simply lifted in the Ryder cup by external factors - I wouldn't expect a snooker player to be big on crowd involvement but were physiology is involved where that extra
zip can be useful rather than a hindrance I aint buying the spiel - now maybe this is  as simple as displaced responsibility were being responsibile for another gives you added discipline, greater focus - maybe that is something the team spirit, the Liverpool way taps into I dont know but I'd be intersted to know how that fits in here

it does not have to be about only using external factors because they are outside of your control and you can't play for 90 minutes based on natural 'speed'  but channeling it at the right time, using it to give you an edge in  a  game were an edge is all you need - well that kinda makes more sense to me -

the idea that if you take the aggression out of a player they become half the player seems true to me also - is Rooney without the dig the same player, is Gerrard? There's a combination is some sports especially team and physical sport that go beyond mental discipline isn't there?

ask Karl Froch about channelling external factors I'm sure he'd prefer an empty stadium to a home town gig - ok its not just about lifting your game but intimidating and distracting the opponent  but nevertheless ignoring it, is that really the answer?

to cut off all external factors would be to remove elements such as team spirit wouldn't it? So we know some of those factors have to be filtered in,  for me the question really is where do you draw the line or what do you allow through and how.




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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #59 on: February 5, 2013, 10:28:40 pm »
Breakfast Percy, you don't post half often enough mate! Outstanding! :D

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #60 on: February 6, 2013, 12:07:29 am »
When you look at kids that can perform though, they really don't see anything but the game. No external interference at all. They are virtually uncoachable though. Then you have the ones that watch trains! I really like that equation.

Really good debate.

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #61 on: February 6, 2013, 12:08:33 am »
Breakfast Percy, you don't post half often enough mate! Outstanding! :D

I second this mate, I'llbe looking out for your posts from now on.

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #62 on: February 6, 2013, 12:58:18 am »
For the nice words, my Chimp brain says thanks! :)

**********
DRSP talks about when you are learining a new skill, you are clumsy and awkward, typically.  As you start to understand it, it moves from the Human part of the brain to the Computer where it contiues to develop and become better.  This is most clearly explained when he talks about choking.  He cites Faldo against Norman on the final hole.  Norman chokes and puts it awry.  Also Novotna at Wimbledon.  DRSP talks about the chimp giving them the fear that made the human doubt their own skills in the computer leaving only the skills they learned in the human brain phase.  This is most evident in Football at the penalty shoot out.  The chimp is on the rampage reliving all the previous ones they have missed and the human skill they left at age 8 is upon them, leaving them woefully prepared for the kick.

I have done some reading in that realm (the computer brain and Automaticity) but you've just encouraged me to rifle through again! PhaseOfPlay has mentioned the passing patterns Rodgers works on in training and the advantages of preparing in advance to a system, is obviously that you do open up the potential for Automaticity. Which I've just noticed vblfc has already touched on:

Of course you need both potential and mindset.  I think this idea really applies to the system we are looking for and it can be mindset that makes us move beyond training the system and into an idea of unconcious team ability.  Not having to think about it.

Both of you have explained the different bits really well, and the penalty shootout is pretty much the definitive example.

and some are able to excel by using those external forces, to lift themselves up potentially beyond their level or maybe substitute it for 'mental dsicipline' - for every Borg or Federer there's a Nastase or McEnroe  for every AC Milan in Istanbul there's a Liverpool - an LFC infront of the standing Kop on a european night or the Ryder Cup or Murray at the Olympics or any number of sports people at the Olympics come to that, who said that the surge of the crowd carried them through or drove them on or gave them the lift they needed

But does this phenomenon really exist? Are they performing above their capability or simply at their maximum? I would argue it doesn't increase their ability, just their motivation to fulfill it. That's fine, I'm arguing that by all means use the crowd to motivate. What you don't want to do is change your playing style and your plan because of that motivation and the crowd. The crowd might be spurring me on to bomb up and down the wing to my best capabilities, but the fact they're cheering doesn't change if it's right or wrong to cross.

the idea that if you take the aggression out of a player they become half the player seems true to me also - is Rooney without the dig the same player, is Gerrard? There's a combination is some sports especially team and physical sport that go beyond mental discipline isn't there?

ask Karl Froch about channelling external factors I'm sure he'd prefer an empty stadium to a home town gig - ok its not just about lifting your game but intimidating and distracting the opponent  but nevertheless ignoring it, is that really the answer?

to cut off all external factors would be to remove elements such as team spirit wouldn't it? So we know some of those factors have to be filtered in,  for me the question really is where do you draw the line or what do you allow through and how.
I'm absolutely not saying be emotionless, or remove aggression etc. Aggression has it's place as part of a game plan and a style. It's about channeling emotions into healthy motivations.

And I'm absolutely saying team spirit is important. Part of the point is that players don't have instant team spirit, it develops through shared experience. So you need other things to motivate them in the mean time, and then in combination with that team spirit.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2013, 01:01:52 am by BreakfastPercy »

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #63 on: February 6, 2013, 01:33:03 am »
What a truly excellent thread. RAWK at it's finest. I have nothing to add other than my thanks.  :wellin
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #64 on: February 6, 2013, 05:00:49 am »

to cut off all external factors would be to remove elements such as team spirit wouldn't it? So we know some of those factors have to be filtered in,  for me the question really is where do you draw the line or what do you allow through and how.
Yes, I can see that in part when its a positive energy and consistent with the system.  Probably Luis' energy and mindset is a whole study on this subject by himself. 
The idea of controlling the interference is about inner control, to get to a place (on whole team technique/system) where you just flow with it.  I am sure thats the Barcelona way.  To your points - I agree this still can still leave a place for passion/positive energy.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2013, 05:22:35 am by vblfc »

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #65 on: February 6, 2013, 12:29:45 pm »
But does this phenomenon really exist? Are they performing above their capability or simply at their maximum? I would argue it doesn't increase their ability, just their motivation to fulfill it. That's fine, I'm arguing that by all means use the crowd to motivate. What you don't want to do is change your playing style and your plan because of that motivation and the crowd. The crowd might be spurring me on to bomb up and down the wing to my best capabilities, but the fact they're cheering doesn't change if it's right or wrong to cross.
I'm absolutely not saying be emotionless, or remove aggression etc. Aggression has it's place as part of a game plan and a style. It's about channeling emotions into healthy motivations.


I'm not sure how you separate the two. Performance doesn't exist in isolation of motivation. Is the suggestion every underdog  is someone who's simply failed to achieve their full potential?

"Its hard to be good, its far harder to be good every day"  said Willie Mays.  Not everybody has the ability to achieve such consistency either physically or mentally. 

I'll quote John Wooden "Sports do not build character they reveal it" to back this up but to be honest he would probably turn in his grave because he believed as you do in players being part robot and part racehorse :) that the emotion provides too many highs and lows, that intensity and focus is what is required, that success isn't about winning but knowing you've tried to be the best person you can be. Hopefully we can both agree on the last bit.

So we need to channel positive emotion in team spirit, belief in the system, club, each other and we need to channel aggression (usually perceived as a negative emotion) - and its ok to use the energy of the crowd to feed the intensity and focus of our play  but  we shouldn't let it change the plan or our actions within the plan....... I guess this is where we disagree - the idea of a games momentum......that intangible maybe misleading feeling that you get in a game when you know which side is dominating, when you can feel it in your water............

 - you suggest that that crowd shouldn't determine whether a cross is right or wrong - I'd say it can and even I know that sounds barking - it sounds like you should stick with the plan that the positioning of the players should decide when a cross is right or wrong - the crowd demanding attack attack attack, their emotions demanding release that should not dictate what you do - the scream of 'shoot!' shouldn't decide whether you let rip , the intake of breath when a flair player picks the ball up, outwide and in space shouldn't mean a mazy run but, but, but.......sometimes it does mean that, sometimes when you see hard bitten Juve players staring up at the Kop in awe and thinking 'what the hell have we here' and their knees are shaking its exactly when you should cross, sometimes when the ground is rocking and the kop in full voice exaggerating a push in the box is exactly what is called for, when Chelsea players feel their skin tingling because the atmosphere is on fire thats exactly when to attack - and to reverse that - sometimes when players are hyped up and buzzing and their energy off the chart playing keep ball however 'desirable' is wrong because they've never played keep ball unable to hear themselves think, with adrenal pumping at a 100mph through their system in training, the opposition doesn't come roaring into them and the crowd isn't howling at the moon - those 6 minutes in Istanbul weren't a perfectly executed clinically detached game plan they were taking advantage of a shift in a games momentum - I doubt I was the only one telling Smicer not to shoot but it was the right time, the right moment - was Vlad mentally in control was anybody for those 6 minutes? The sheer joy of sport, well if you were an LFC fan anyway........ is it possible to harness that lighning put it in a bottle I dont know but to set out deliberately not to seems ... well it seems wrong

Sometimes you need to seize the moment we dont do it enough, 2-0 up at Arsenal with their entire club in crisis would be an example - seize that moment and the crowd turn, they lose, they probably lose the next game we edge closer to 4th - We are I think planning a different, more sensible, better read approach. I understand that, I understand the confidence and sense of control that 'death by football' 'should' bring  in the board room and on the pitch and there is a time and a place for it - maybe the plan is fine maybe we just need to learn when and how hard to press , maybe if we'd been fitter we would have pressed instead of backing off  - I just think its missing a trick.

Please dont get me wrong, I'll settle for a grinding machine and at times with Rafa it was the height of my ambition a merciless constant press  but I'll continue to dream of a red machine with a charasmatic soul.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #66 on: February 6, 2013, 01:29:18 pm »
.....

Please dont get me wrong, I'll settle for a grinding machine and at times with Rafa it was the height of my ambition a merciless constant press  but I'll continue to dream of a red machine with a charasmatic soul.



 :wellin Fantastic

Some brilliant arguements / discussions in here. A real tonic to the post match threads. Keep up the great work gents.

For what its worth do the learned gentleman see how the automaticity / pre-planned / well drilled approach discussed in the superb OP can be integrated with the adrenalined filled  / knee knocking / spine tingling feeling brought on by the overwhelming emotion of a full voiced, baying Kop? Surely that is what must be strived for.... the control of a game using the uncontrollable emotion of our support to gain a position of invincibility.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2013, 01:35:54 pm by Paddock77 »
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Re: Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #67 on: February 6, 2013, 03:22:43 pm »
I'm not sure how you separate the two. Performance doesn't exist in isolation of motivation. Is the suggestion every underdog  is someone who's simply failed to achieve their full potential?

"Its hard to be good, its far harder to be good every day"  said Willie Mays.  Not everybody has the ability to achieve such consistency either physically or mentally. 

I'll quote John Wooden "Sports do not build character they reveal it" to back this up but to be honest he would probably turn in his grave because he believed as you do in players being part robot and part racehorse :) that the emotion provides too many highs and lows, that intensity and focus is what is required, that success isn't about winning but knowing you've tried to be the best person you can be. Hopefully we can both agree on the last bit.

So we need to channel positive emotion in team spirit, belief in the system, club, each other and we need to channel aggression (usually perceived as a negative emotion) - and its ok to use the energy of the crowd to feed the intensity and focus of our play  but  we shouldn't let it change the plan or our actions within the plan....... I guess this is where we disagree - the idea of a games momentum......that intangible maybe misleading feeling that you get in a game when you know which side is dominating, when you can feel it in your water............

 - you suggest that that crowd shouldn't determine whether a cross is right or wrong - I'd say it can and even I know that sounds barking - it sounds like you should stick with the plan that the positioning of the players should decide when a cross is right or wrong - the crowd demanding attack attack attack, their emotions demanding release that should not dictate what you do - the scream of 'shoot!' shouldn't decide whether you let rip , the intake of breath when a flair player picks the ball up, outwide and in space shouldn't mean a mazy run but, but, but.......sometimes it does mean that, sometimes when you see hard bitten Juve players staring up at the Kop in awe and thinking 'what the hell have we here' and their knees are shaking its exactly when you should cross, sometimes when the ground is rocking and the kop in full voice exaggerating a push in the box is exactly what is called for, when Chelsea players feel their skin tingling because the atmosphere is on fire thats exactly when to attack - and to reverse that - sometimes when players are hyped up and buzzing and their energy off the chart playing keep ball however 'desirable' is wrong because they've never played keep ball unable to hear themselves think, with adrenal pumping at a 100mph through their system in training, the opposition doesn't come roaring into them and the crowd isn't howling at the moon - those 6 minutes in Istanbul weren't a perfectly executed clinically detached game plan they were taking advantage of a shift in a games momentum - I doubt I was the only one telling Smicer not to shoot but it was the right time, the right moment - was Vlad mentally in control was anybody for those 6 minutes? The sheer joy of sport, well if you were an LFC fan anyway........ is it possible to harness that lighning put it in a bottle I dont know but to set out deliberately not to seems ... well it seems wrong

Sometimes you need to seize the moment we dont do it enough, 2-0 up at Arsenal with their entire club in crisis would be an example - seize that moment and the crowd turn, they lose, they probably lose the next game we edge closer to 4th - We are I think planning a different, more sensible, better read approach. I understand that, I understand the confidence and sense of control that 'death by football' 'should' bring  in the board room and on the pitch and there is a time and a place for it - maybe the plan is fine maybe we just need to learn when and how hard to press , maybe if we'd been fitter we would have pressed instead of backing off  - I just think its missing a trick.

Please dont get me wrong, I'll settle for a grinding machine and at times with Rafa it was the height of my ambition a merciless constant press  but I'll continue to dream of a red machine with a charasmatic soul.

I think you are under a misunderstanding, I know this from what I can do.  I can look and believe there is silver lining to anything, positive emotion buoys me, negative emotion drives me to do better/improve.  Human beings are capable of doing this.  As footballers, training them to believe in the system guarantees they are not individually at fault if they are trying to implement and use the system. 

As fans do we know the system and every plan Rogers has trained and educated his players in?  Are we to determine that this is what Rogers wants here, when we don't know?

This will allow the team to get the lift from a charged atmosphere, and brush off negativity if they are doing everything they can towards the system.

Aggression when rampant will be destructive, the chimp blinding you to consequences as you lunge two-footed, and studs up towards the defender who just tackled you badly to get the ball, think Jonjo Shelvey :-). Aggression has to channelled into drive to get the ball back, play well, and do your job in the system.

In more simple terms the short term emotions, fear, anger, manic happiness, and hurt are more chimp like, and lead to poor play and poor actions.  How many times has anyone been in an argument and said things you didn't mean.  This is the chimp speaking for you. Keeping the chimp in check, allows human emotions to flourish.

This is not emotionless, witness Andy Murray crying at winning the Olympics, the overjoyed reaction at winning a cup in any sport.  Systems don't have to lead to no emotion.
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #68 on: February 6, 2013, 06:36:42 pm »
:wellin Fantastic

Some brilliant arguements / discussions in here. A real tonic to the post match threads. Keep up the great work gents.

For what its worth do the learned gentleman see how the automaticity / pre-planned / well drilled approach discussed in the superb OP can be integrated with the adrenalined filled  / knee knocking / spine tingling feeling brought on by the overwhelming emotion of a full voiced, baying Kop? Surely that is what must be strived for.... the control of a game using the uncontrollable emotion of our support to gain a position of invincibility.

I try to see automaticity as being something progressing through the human part of the brain learning it where it transits into the computer to be refined.  As has been mentioned above, channelling raw emotions into drive, focus, and purpose will lift you, oppositions crowds are no more than the same, as are booing fans, giving you the above qualities as channelling it to make you perform better.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2013, 03:31:51 pm by Adamski LFC »
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Offline Paddock77

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #69 on: February 7, 2013, 01:48:36 pm »
Bump

This shouldn't be off the front page :o
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #70 on: February 7, 2013, 04:28:49 pm »
you suggest that that crowd shouldn't determine whether a cross is right or wrong - I'd say it can and even I know that sounds barking - it sounds like you should stick with the plan that the positioning of the players should decide when a cross is right or wrong - the crowd demanding attack attack attack, their emotions demanding release that should not dictate what you do - the scream of 'shoot!' shouldn't decide whether you let rip , the intake of breath when a flair player picks the ball up, outwide and in space shouldn't mean a mazy run but, but, but.......sometimes it does mean that, sometimes when you see hard bitten Juve players staring up at the Kop in awe and thinking 'what the hell have we here' and their knees are shaking its exactly when you should cross, sometimes when the ground is rocking and the kop in full voice exaggerating a push in the box is exactly what is called for, when Chelsea players feel their skin tingling because the atmosphere is on fire thats exactly when to attack - and to reverse that - sometimes when players are hyped up and buzzing and their energy off the chart playing keep ball however 'desirable' is wrong because they've never played keep ball unable to hear themselves think, with adrenal pumping at a 100mph through their system in training, the opposition doesn't come roaring into them and the crowd isn't howling at the moon - those 6 minutes in Istanbul weren't a perfectly executed clinically detached game plan they were taking advantage of a shift in a games momentum - I doubt I was the only one telling Smicer not to shoot but it was the right time, the right moment - was Vlad mentally in control was anybody for those 6 minutes? The sheer joy of sport, well if you were an LFC fan anyway........ is it possible to harness that lighning put it in a bottle I dont know but to set out deliberately not to seems ... well it seems wrong

This a great piece of writing and should be required reading before you take you seat in the KOP.  Most big teams, however, will have experienced local derby matches, or ties at other hard grounds, like Olympiacos, not like Anfield, but close.  Think of teams who have come to Anfield and not been cowed by the crowd.  Benfica is a specific example from Europe.  This hinges on the first goal usually, causing the not so well drilled side (Old Liverpool) to abandon their plan A desparate to get a goal back, leaving more space by abondoning their plan A.

Having plan A, is normally covered under three ways when playing us, harking back to the brilliant Level 1, 2, and 3 posts; back's against the wall BATW (Stoke), counter attack COATT (Aston Villa), and have a go HAGO(Man Utd).  Well drilled sides will stick with their plan, and are correspondingly less likely to abandon the plan after the first goal is scored by us.  With BATW, having to change shape to try and score, leaving more space; COATT still think they can score 1 leading to a draw, so keep shape; HAGO think they can score 2 or more.

Our second goal sends the BATW into meltdown, Norwich, Stoke.  Causes COATT to start doubting their plan leading to less tactical discipline, but no difference to HAGO.  At 3-0 BATW are out of the picture and liable for more; COATT are panicking too, stretching their plan to try and score quickly; HAGO just keep on ploughing their furrow and are more likely to draw or win if they can get the next goal early.  Typically HAGO teams also have more than one tactic to deploy.

Now this is simplistic in the extreme, but illustrates that no matter how strong the crowd is, it takes goals to ram home the advantage
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #71 on: February 8, 2013, 01:22:54 am »
I'm not sure how you separate the two. Performance doesn't exist in isolation of motivation. Is the suggestion every underdog  is someone who's simply failed to achieve their full potential?

"Its hard to be good, its far harder to be good every day"  said Willie Mays.  Not everybody has the ability to achieve such consistency either physically or mentally. 

I'll quote John Wooden "Sports do not build character they reveal it" to back this up but to be honest he would probably turn in his grave because he believed as you do in players being part robot and part racehorse :) that the emotion provides too many highs and lows, that intensity and focus is what is required, that success isn't about winning but knowing you've tried to be the best person you can be. Hopefully we can both agree on the last bit.

So we need to channel positive emotion in team spirit, belief in the system, club, each other and we need to channel aggression (usually perceived as a negative emotion) - and its ok to use the energy of the crowd to feed the intensity and focus of our play  but  we shouldn't let it change the plan or our actions within the plan....... I guess this is where we disagree - the idea of a games momentum......that intangible maybe misleading feeling that you get in a game when you know which side is dominating, when you can feel it in your water............

 - you suggest that that crowd shouldn't determine whether a cross is right or wrong - I'd say it can and even I know that sounds barking - it sounds like you should stick with the plan that the positioning of the players should decide when a cross is right or wrong - the crowd demanding attack attack attack, their emotions demanding release that should not dictate what you do - the scream of 'shoot!' shouldn't decide whether you let rip , the intake of breath when a flair player picks the ball up, outwide and in space shouldn't mean a mazy run but, but, but.......sometimes it does mean that, sometimes when you see hard bitten Juve players staring up at the Kop in awe and thinking 'what the hell have we here' and their knees are shaking its exactly when you should cross, sometimes when the ground is rocking and the kop in full voice exaggerating a push in the box is exactly what is called for, when Chelsea players feel their skin tingling because the atmosphere is on fire thats exactly when to attack - and to reverse that - sometimes when players are hyped up and buzzing and their energy off the chart playing keep ball however 'desirable' is wrong because they've never played keep ball unable to hear themselves think, with adrenal pumping at a 100mph through their system in training, the opposition doesn't come roaring into them and the crowd isn't howling at the moon - those 6 minutes in Istanbul weren't a perfectly executed clinically detached game plan they were taking advantage of a shift in a games momentum - I doubt I was the only one telling Smicer not to shoot but it was the right time, the right moment - was Vlad mentally in control was anybody for those 6 minutes? The sheer joy of sport, well if you were an LFC fan anyway........ is it possible to harness that lighning put it in a bottle I dont know but to set out deliberately not to seems ... well it seems wrong

Sometimes you need to seize the moment we dont do it enough, 2-0 up at Arsenal with their entire club in crisis would be an example - seize that moment and the crowd turn, they lose, they probably lose the next game we edge closer to 4th - We are I think planning a different, more sensible, better read approach. I understand that, I understand the confidence and sense of control that 'death by football' 'should' bring  in the board room and on the pitch and there is a time and a place for it - maybe the plan is fine maybe we just need to learn when and how hard to press , maybe if we'd been fitter we would have pressed instead of backing off  - I just think its missing a trick.

Please dont get me wrong, I'll settle for a grinding machine and at times with Rafa it was the height of my ambition a merciless constant press  but I'll continue to dream of a red machine with a charasmatic soul.
It's just too risky. If you allow momentum one way, then you allow it the other. It's a slugfest. I'd rather a team that keeps their guard up and works the openings. It doesn't mean you won't have some exciting knockouts. Of course you want to seize an advantage and push that home, but this idea of the crowd informing strategy to me is madness. How do you even prepare your players for that?

The second half in Istanbul was special because they had gone 3-0 behind in the first place. Our players were affected negatively by the occasion. If the players had retained control and executed the strategy properly (or the strategy had been right) then we might have been winning at half time. That's not as exciting to look back on, but it's a hell of a lot more consistent and sustainable. And it's actually something the players can aim for, unlike freak comebacks!

N.B. Great descriptions by the way, and I would hope my theory would yield games that would be talked about as passionately.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 01:25:13 am by BreakfastPercy »

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #72 on: February 8, 2013, 01:42:40 am »
could write reams on this...but ultimately...in a nut shell....they all have a job to do...the system is in place...theyre fit enough,technical enough to execute it....so whats the key?
its FOCUS....
the mind games , the gremlins in the mind ,the chimp.is what takes the mind off the job...the thing that loses the focus...thats what crowds do...it takes away the focus....
one of the things that gets my goat up is when a player has a shot on goal...that could have gone in...it misses gets blocked or saved...and the other fella in the box moans like mad like the worlds just ended....what does that do to the other fellas focus on the next attack?...what does it do to team morale and confidence...?...does my head in that ....most of the time the player moaning gets it wrong too...on playback you can see there was no clear pass on anyway without it being intercepted...but still ,the hands go up and the thighs get slapped...that needs cutting out...
mind games are counteracted by keeping the focus...its an art...that can be learned...and it tends to come with age and experience....the young lads are getting some really good experience early on in their careers and it will pay dividends in time...its adding to their self esteem...and like a pilot who thrives on flying hours...these lads will be thriving on these experiences...

you hear a phrase banded about ...belief....
in sports psychology it its a massive phrase...have that ...and youve got a chance...dont have it...and evrything goes wrong..you dont function to youre peak..i suppose the opposite is doubt....interlinked with fear...you concede a goal,and doubts creep in...fear of what could happen takes hold and the belief starts to wobble..performance isnt peak anymore..co-ordination and decision making lessens....ac milan 2005...gudjonson in the semi when he misses...

the clever thing about BR bringing in Peters is that this guy has history...a history of success at the very top...hes believable and he will instill that very belief because its hard to doubt a fella thats been there and done it...
If a fella of the street said what he says ,it wouldn't be taken on board..it woud be chucked out with a ..what do you know....even though hes bang on correct
Peters will get through ,and the belief will develop ,and it will grow and develop through evry corridor of the club...and outside...by that i mean the media and the fan base and just as importantly...other fan bases
the negative mocking of liverpool football club of previous years..will turn to the ....liverpool are back...their coming up on the rails and it wouldnt surprise me if fergie starts trying to influence  again as he will see us as a new threat...watch that space
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 02:34:24 am by horne »
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #73 on: February 8, 2013, 06:25:50 am »
could write reams on this...but ultimately...in a nut shell....they all have a job to do...the system is in place...theyre fit enough,technical enough to execute it....so whats the key?
its FOCUS....
the mind games , the gremlins in the mind ,the chimp.is what takes the mind off the job...the thing that loses the focus...thats what crowds do...it takes away the focus....
one of the things that gets my goat up is when a player has a shot on goal...that could have gone in...it misses gets blocked or saved...and the other fella in the box moans like mad like the worlds just ended....what does that do to the other fellas focus on the next attack?...what does it do to team morale and confidence...?...does my head in that ....most of the time the player moaning gets it wrong too...on playback you can see there was no clear pass on anyway without it being intercepted...but still ,the hands go up and the thighs get slapped...that needs cutting out...
mind games are counteracted by keeping the focus...its an art...that can be learned...and it tends to come with age and experience....the young lads are getting some really good experience early on in their careers and it will pay dividends in time...its adding to their self esteem...and like a pilot who thrives on flying hours...these lads will be thriving on these experiences...

you hear a phrase banded about ...belief....
in sports psychology it its a massive phrase...have that ...and youve got a chance...dont have it...and evrything goes wrong..you dont function to youre peak..i suppose the opposite is doubt....interlinked with fear...you concede a goal,and doubts creep in...fear of what could happen takes hold and the belief starts to wobble..performance isnt peak anymore..co-ordination and decision making lessens....ac milan 2005...gudjonson in the semi when he misses...

the clever thing about BR bringing in Peters is that this guy has history...a history of success at the very top...hes believable and he will instill that very belief because its hard to doubt a fella thats been there and done it...
If a fella of the street said what he says ,it wouldn't be taken on board..it woud be chucked out with a ..what do you know....even though hes bang on correct
Peters will get through ,and the belief will develop ,and it will grow and develop through evry corridor of the club...and outside...by that i mean the media and the fan base and just as importantly...other fan bases
the negative mocking of liverpool football club of previous years..will turn to the ....liverpool are back...their coming up on the rails and it wouldnt surprise me if fergie starts trying to influence  again as he will see us as a new threat...watch that space
Great post, sums up what I've been trying to say well. That line about Fergie I think is a really interesting point as we know from Rodgers himself that the staff have access to Peters too. I consider the Ferguson 'mind games' something of a myth but if they do exist, then you would think our staff are well equipped to cope. Also we have seen the toll management can take even on the likes of Pep Guardiola, and the wellness aspect may help us keep Rodgers and co. in top condition as well as the players.

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #74 on: February 8, 2013, 07:04:58 am »
Great post, sums up what I've been trying to say well. That line about Fergie I think is a really interesting point as we know from Rodgers himself that the staff have access to Peters too. I consider the Ferguson 'mind games' something of a myth but if they do exist, then you would think our staff are well equipped to cope. Also we have seen the toll management can take even on the likes of Pep Guardiola, and the wellness aspect may help us keep Rodgers and co. in top condition as well as the players.
Ferguson definitely believes in the mind games.  He instills it in the whole set-up and anything that touches it, including the press.  He always plants his mind bombs towards threats.
Torres is an interesting example of system and mind impact.  When he was in his pomp with us he had a system with a telepathic connection to Gerrard (in particular).  How many times did they just flow to a goal.  You can see now what a new set-up and niggling worry, weight of transfer fee etc, are doing to him.  Often hear it blamed on injury but that clearly isn't the whole story - you can just see it with him. 
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 07:07:14 am by vblfc »

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #75 on: February 8, 2013, 07:09:27 am »
could write reams on this...but ultimately...in a nut shell....they all have a job to do...the system is in place...theyre fit enough,technical enough to execute it....so whats the key?
its FOCUS....

one of the things that gets my goat up is when a player has a shot on goal...that could have gone in...it misses gets blocked or saved...and the other fella in the box moans like mad like the worlds just ended....what does that do to the other fellas focus on the next attack?...what does it do to team morale and confidence...?...does my head in that ....most of the time the player moaning gets it wrong too...on playback you can see there was no clear pass on anyway without it being intercepted...but still ,the hands go up and the thighs get slapped...that needs cutting out...
mind games are counteracted by keeping the focus...its an art...that can be learned...and it tends to come with age and experience....the young lads are getting some really good experience early on in their careers and it will pay dividends in time...its adding to their self esteem...and like a pilot who thrives on flying hours...these lads will be thriving on these experiences...
Unfortunately this point is well over due. Especially when you look back to the incident regarding young Jack Robinson in the F.A cup. Suarez doesn't do the kid any favours by berating him (something Suarez needs to manage) but what is interesting is his reaction to Suarez. He doesn't hide from his mistake, instead he reacts angrily but perhaps it was more to do with being angry with himself rather than Suarez. Although the decision to shoot was ultimately the wrong one it's these type of experiences that will help shape the future course of a young lads career. In future similar situations that experience may provide the composure in his decision making to find an open team mate. Time will tell.

EDIT: I'm not justifying Suarez berating Robinson rather making a point about his reaction. Another point I could make is how that berating has affected Henderson & Sterling in the past. Several situations in the past (nothing recent) has shown that Henderson & Sterling have both looked for the pass rather than the shot due to previous instances of Suarez acting angrily to not receiving the pass. When watching back the higher percentage play was to shoot for goal.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 07:19:38 am by Livo.85 »

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #76 on: February 8, 2013, 10:28:36 am »
EDIT: I'm not justifying Suarez berating Robinson rather making a point about his reaction. Another point I could make is how that berating has affected Henderson & Sterling in the past. Several situations in the past (nothing recent) has shown that Henderson & Sterling have both looked for the pass rather than the shot due to previous instances of Suarez acting angrily to not receiving the pass. When watching back the higher percentage play was to shoot for goal.

Thinking another way about this, is Suarez berating him for not following the system, as opposed to being a shit shot?  I think not, but the great post by Horne is key, energy from the crowd can aid focus if managed well, little arguments on the pitch should not cause a player to revert to chimp-like behaviour, unless, as you point out, they are pissed off at themselves.  A positive spinning player as part of a system should calm down and get his human and computer heads back on and regain focus.  Use the event to spur him on to be better.  This is what the system wants and again, as Horne says, Peters is key.  The belief Peters instills is how to manage your chimp and understand and help manage other peoples chimps.  This allows you perspective over baying fans, berating players, realising the core of their emotion is justified, but the expression of it is the chimp.  Separating out the anger allows analysis of your play, and others, and the realisation that at that moment in time Robinson thought it was best to shoot in his mind, so he did.

Is it any surprise that Henderson, and Downing have flourished since Peters arrival.  Certain players may still benefit from him, but it is interesting that Allen is struggling lately, he might not think he needs to have a chat to Peters, otherwise, as VBLFC states, what is interfering with his potential?  Peters can specifically deal with the weight of expectation and the shirt, as he has proven previously, so could someone like Allen benefit?

Previously, self-realisation has been mentioned as without that Arrogance and Error flourish.  I can see how the passes by Henderson and Sterling are simple judgements, Suarez is more likely to score from their point of view, but us watching can see it is not the case.  Henderson rifling two goals in the last couple of games proves to him, and others, he can score.  Sterling has put a few in too.  This should lead to them taking better decisions when presented with a chance they could score, Suarez has more chance but is in a worse position, so I am better off shooting.  This sounds daunting but brings us back to Horne and BP.  In the zone this becomes automatic where you trust your instinct (see computer brain) to do what's right.  The zone is focus.  At its peak, the system flows, seemingly automatically pressing, taking advantage of space, players doing what they are meant to do as part of a whole, Swansea at Anfield last season, for example. 

When the system is fully integrated, I think we will see less berating of players from our own team, concious that all they are trying to do is help the team win the game in the way they have been taught and are playing.
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #77 on: February 8, 2013, 11:49:47 am »
it wouldnt surprise me if allen has been to see peters before the dip...and its the thinking too much thats effected his game...but it will work its self out ...he will work it out...the chats hes had will kick in and it becomes automatic...the golfer who starts to analyse his swing...has a few lessons on changing it maybe and guess what...his game goes backwards....he keeps on practising the new swing and eventual...it becomes a habit without thinking about it...it becaomes automatic...his game improves...
the over thinking sets you back a step until the technique is practiced...practice makes perfect right?(habits are formed)...the techniques need time to bed in....the habits develop
i think i read somewhere the defenition of a habit is when you do something x number of times...im going to say 36 because it rings a bell...i cant really remmber the true figure but thats close to it...thirty something....it suggests that it doesnt happen over night....not saying its going to take thirty odd games as that would be stupid...but what i do know is overnight when we sleep...the mind works things out...its the dream thing...the brain/mind is calculating ,processing and soughting stuff out...its the subconscious at work and is an amzing thing...its that little bit of magic that put things right...allen will be getting the praise soon and its like riding a bike...once youve got it..youve got it and it just happens without thinking about it..the penny drops and what is already a cracking player for his age and little experience...will be an even better player because of it

one thing holding us back is the lack of consistant wins...when we get to that stage...things seem easy....the panic the doubts and the fear the desperation will disapear...the habit of winning kicks in...things just seem to fall for yer,you get the rub of the green....united have had a base there for decades and although on paper they shouldnt get away with what they get away with but hats off to them,the momentum the luck the decisions and everything else just flows....thats the way we were in the seventies and eighties thanks to what shanks did in the sixties
i sense that we are showing signs ourselves...the big grey clouds of doubt and bad luck and negative thinking seem to be clearing...the feel good factor is starting to show itself and with that everything else will fall into line...
many parts add up and contribute to success...its not just down to one thing....but i can see those patrs starting to line up....patience is key because like i say...it wont happen overnight but it wont take that long neither....the fear of the decades of not winning the league has been a burden along with lack of champions league and the things that that brings but we are a whisker away ...tiny adjustments...lots of effort...and belief...massive belief that we WILL get there will get us there quicker....the fans play a massive part in this and if we make anfield a force again...on the terraces...it will be fast tracked...pity we as fans didnt get out the blocks quicker but after all weve been through...its not a stick to beat ourselves with...its understandable...the clubs been putting out fires everywhere for age s and evrytime we put one out...another one starts...we need to keep our heads down...stay away from controversy and chip away at it...we know whats right but we need to act on it and not just think it....it all plays a part and eventually....when all these systems are analysed ,cut up and defined and put back together again...the realisation that  old Liverpool way was the way...is the way...and should always be the way
other clubs feared it...tried to understand it...tried to copy it...and its ironic that thats what were probably trying to put back into practice without realising it....whats been happening on the terraces isnt the way it used to be...we wandered from the liverpool way...i really think that thats the next focus for the club....sort out the atmosphere because that twelth man makes a difference...its all part of the mind games right?
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 12:53:09 pm by horne »
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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #78 on: February 8, 2013, 12:02:07 pm »
Regarding Allen - Rodgers has been quoted as saying that he believes him being a first time dad & struggling with niggly injuries hasn't helped his form.
I don't think anyone here should under estimate how having a newborn can affect your focus.  :wave This I believe is Allen's issue at the moment. He is still a very young player & a lot of fans don't take these things into consideration when a player suffers with a dip in form. You get the chimps who knee jerk  ;D

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Re: Systems - Mindgames
« Reply #79 on: February 8, 2013, 02:08:27 pm »
To clarify here's an interview from the Echo where Joe Allen says he has been to see Peters. Horne's analogy about golf swing, and the points about new responsibilities, may well hold true. Let's also not forget he's had to learn and unlearn a different position too:

Quote
I’ve been to see him and I’ve found it very helpful,” said Allen.

“In football anything you can add or bring which can benefit us in any sort of way is something that I am happy to have.

“Steve really is an incredible person. The things he has done in his career are very impressive.

“Spending time with someone like him can only rub off on you in a good way.”

“I’m not sure if the mental side of the game is more important these days but it’s certainly something that plays a part in how you play,” added Allen.

“I think it’s pretty obvious to see when you have someone on the pitch who is in a good frame of mind. When a player is brimming with confidence you certainly see a difference in his performance.

“You only have to look at some of the people Steve has worked with. It’s something we will utilise and I’m sure he will help us all over the course of the season.”

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/12/14/joe-allen-says-liverpool-fc-are-winning-their-mind-games-thanks-to-dr-steve-peters-100252-32424952/2/