Author Topic: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)  (Read 5684 times)

Offline Col

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Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« on: March 21, 2012, 10:49:24 pm »
This was the first game I haven't seen in a little while, so I'll leave it to you guys to discuss.

A few starting points - we win with Carroll in the team; We lose with Adam. Did Adam's presence have any effect?

Why didn't we keep the same team, if Kelly was fit?




And finally - Is there a difference between being the right man for the job, and being the right manager for the job?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 02:45:13 pm by hinesy »
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Offline Col

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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 11:19:57 pm »
Just from watching the highlights, two points:

No players on the posts at corners is a massive, massive error.

Pepe should've saved all three goals. No excuses.
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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 11:20:29 pm »
At half time, my nagging thought was that Downing isn't a very good defender. A couple of times in the first half he stood and watched Traore saunter by him. Also, Adam wasn't contributing very much other than chucking in a few fouls when he got tired. Apart from that, we were doing our usual thing of loads of set pieces without much to show for it, despite zipping the ball around very nicely.

The Coates goal was not really capable of analysis. Ferdinand had him and then went to sleep a little but the finish? Holy shit. That kicks Rooney's effort from last season into a cocked hat, albeit a little closer in. Maybe Agger has some competition for the best footballer in our defence. Kuyt's slide after good work by Suarez made it an unusual day, though, and one where we might get our rewards, as the manager says, and at 2 0 up against a frankly limited and error prone QPR, you'd have to be happy, Clive.

And then we fucked up to an extraordinary, unprecedented, grotesque and bizarre degree. Shaun Derry, a tidy pro who hadn't scored for five years disposes of Henderson en route to the net. For the second, our best defender's heretofore immaculate GPS suddenly fried. And for the third, our "best left back in years" did a Buster Keaton impression while simultaneously ushering Mackie in on goal. Reina had little chance with the first two but might have dealt with the third.

Gerrard, Carragher, Skrtel, Reina, these senior pros were all on the pitch when this happened. These are players who would lock down a game, you might think. Perhaps the appropriate noises weren't made on the sidelines. Losing to a weak side when you're two up is very troubling. Perhaps some of them should be looking into their hearts tonight.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 04:57:04 pm by corkboy »

Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 12:08:45 pm »
Gerrard, Carragher, Skrtel, Reina, these senior pros were all on the pitch when this happened. These are players who would lock down a game, you might think. Perhaps the appropriate noises weren't made on the sidelines. Losing to a weak side when you're two up is very troubling. Perhaps some of them should be looking into their hearts tonight.

And now to the point I was making with a few people yesterday. As most of you know I've never been one shy away from speaking my mind, even when it's not very popular so here goes. The lack of leadership and a clear mentality on the pitch has been a problem with the club ever since I started following it, bar the last 5 months of the 08/09 season. We are a club that wins cup finals. And that mentality is infused with our DNA at this point. And in a sense highlighted by the players we brought in. And I know that the next two points will not go down well with many but I think we have become an English club through and through. We were moving from it with Rafa Benitez but are back in it again. Players who think they are better than they are because the media says so and players who believe they don't have to work hard to achieve success. After all when you play for Liverpool/England then by default you are amongst the favourites for whatever competition you take part in. Given how important "Scouse not English" is to many people some would have me lynched but those who don't can please convince me that I'm wrong (I hope I am, I truly do).

I'm going to name two games from our season and two games from England's performance in the World Cup and see if they sound familiar.

England 0 - 0 Algeria
15   Shots   11
6   Shots on goal   1
10   Corner kicks   3

vs.

Liverpool 0 - 0 Swansea
18   Shots   9
10   Shots on goal   3
11   Corner kicks   4

Man for man the former team has the advantage. Manager to manager, the former team should have the advantage. The former has the quality on the pitch to do it, the quality on the sidelines to do it. Yet they can't turn their superiority into a win.

The second game:

England 1 - 1 USA
18   Shots   13
8   Shots on goal   4
8   Corner kicks   4

vs.

Liverpool 1 - 1 Norwich
25   Shots   12
15   Shots on goal   10
10   Corner kicks   3

And again. Man for man the former team has the advantage. Manager to manager, the former team should have the advantage. The former has the quality on the pitch to do it, the quality on the sidelines to do it. 3x as many corner kicks. Yet they can't turn their superiority into a win.

Why? Because when those teams stepped onto the pitch one arrogantly assumed victory, the other worked towards it. I am simply quoting the world cup games as it's part of a piece I'm doing for the Euros in the summer when comparing mentality to quality, citing Germany's success and England's failure. We are becoming the England NT of club football. The achievement(s) of the past and our place in the history books has installed a mentality that we can't match on the pitch. Only thing differing us from England is that we can win when it matters in knock-out formation.


And it coincides with what I said after the Bolton game
what's becoming the standard in the English game. You do enough and hope to hit a cup run because that is all your career will ever be. I think it's why we have a very decent shot of winning both the cups, but not a snowball's chance in hell of doing the league.

We raise our games "when it matters" and play like horseshit when it doesn't. And since I didn't offend enough people by claiming that Liverpool are becoming the England of club football here's one for the rest. Steven Gerrard is not a league winning captain.


He is a man that will take the hope, faith and expectations of millions of people with everything on the line and deliver. When you think Steven Gerrard you think of the glory. The quintessential Steven Gerrard moment is that Olympiakos goal. Against all odds, in the moment of need,  when the world thought Liverpool was down and out there he was. Liverpool's talisman. You can watch that goal muted and in your head Andy Gray's voice still rings "To Geeeeerrard ohhhhhhhhhhhhh you beauty!!!! What a hit son! What. A. Hit."  You could name any of his unforgettable goals. His goal against the Mancs in the '03 league cup. His spark in the Istanbul comeback. Crushing West Ham's dreams in the '06 cup final. Arguably an even bigger definer of Gerrard's career. With the last shot of the game he saves it for Liverpool.

Gerrard has always been a man of action. He's more concerned with getting the job done than shouting at someone. It's in a sense his biggest quality and his biggest downfall. He is such a dynamic player, on his day absolutely unstoppable. But he still isn't the best candidate for captain. I could go on and on about it but it'd be a waste of time and effort as I would never do it as well as HBHR has already done.


I have always had a hard time with Gerrard as captain. He is such a fantastic player and his love for the club makes him the understandable candidate but he also has a habit of taking on the responsibility for all the wrong reasons. It's the reason he was infamously subbed off vs. Everton and speaking of infamous that look when Rafa subbed Torres off vs. Birmingham is not the look of a man who will buckle down even more. Now he has all the talent in the world to change the outcome of a game. He is the best player on the pitch, he is the one who bails us out of problems and he is the one who wins matches at the death by individual brilliance. And make no mistake about it, everyone knows it. But he is not a man who will take a step back, assess the situation and adjust. I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that if Lucas had played yesterday we would not have lost. When we conceded his reaction, as has so often been, would've been to bring us together, focus more and take on the responsibility and heat of the action to kill the game. We didn't see anything resembling leadership from Gerrard in the last 20 minutes of the game. He wasn't dictating play, organising the midfield or even telling the players to snap the fuck out of it. Concentrate on playing our game and that it's criminal to switch off with nearly a quarter of the game left. And that's my problem with Gerrard as captain. He differentiates between opponents. European night at Anfield? Everton/Manc teams/Chelsea/Arsenal? Important semi or cup final? Expect the very best. Steven Gerrard the human wrecking ball. Bow down and accept defeat and save yourselves the humiliation of trying to stop him. It's impossible as evident by the countless examples of him stepping up when the club needs him to.

Facing West Ham/Birmingham/Blackburn/Reading/Wolves/Wigan/Fulham/Hull/Blackpool/whoever? Pffft I got this! We're Liverpool they don't stand a chance. Bring a top performance against that lot? In your dreams!


We are so reliant on Gerrard when he plays, that everything has to revolve around him or go through him or over the past year or so Suarez. We focus so much on getting the ball to Gerrard that we can easily be stopped if he's taken out or has a bad day. And at times like that, having your key player and the one you feed the ball to constantly who has a tendancy to take all the responsibilty on his shoulders can only work against us. Gerrard is so convinced (can't say I blame him) that he has to be the one to bail us out of trouble that he sees no other option. When there are 5 seconds left of the game and you have one chance you want Gerrard. When you are 3-0 down in the CL final you want Gerrard. When you are playing Everton at home in desperate need of a win after an abysmal league form and need someone to score a hat-trick you want Gerrard.

But again that's what wins trophies not leagues. And it all comes down to this one simple point. When was the last time Liverpool played well in consecutive games that weren't in cup form or against rivals and how likely do you think the current squad is to do so? Because I'm struggling to find any answers that don't further bring out my pessimistic cuntish nature.
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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 02:38:12 pm »
All I'm gonna say is that Coates' goal made me giggle like a wee boy for a good 10 minutes after it went in. I just couldn't believe my eyes. The rest of it? STUPID. (Again.)

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 11:29:32 pm »
I thought we were amazingly good, bar for converting, in the first 20 minutes. There was some truly magical one-touch passing and moving and movement off the ball/play.  We had QPR thoroughly confused, we look like an English-style version of Barcelona at times (if that makes any sense, more direct, longer passes, but still Barca like). The second part of the first half we were under pressure at times, especially in that zone right in front of our CBs (or CCB, after Kelly went off and Coates came on).

Here's how I described, in another thread, how I see our performance after our second goal:

I noticed an immediate drop in Stevie's defensive urgency right after we scored our second. I thought to myself, this can't be good. Poor Spearing was running ragged all over the midfield, working his ass off but not always to great effect. Henderson, who's very "shy" defensively anyway, was doing some running and hurrying but he was clearly out on the right flank and was, effectively, doing sweet eff all shielding and defending.

To me, the decision to go with a 4-man backline with Carra at RB was a disastrous choice. Fair enough we brought in Coates when Kelly went out, but we played the remainder of the first half in a 3-4-3 type formation, with Gerrard almost as a RWB and Enrique as a LWB. When we lost Adam to injury (not that, unfortunately, he had been that good), we went with Henderson but on the right, instead of slotting him in where Adam had played in the first half.

We lost any semblance of control in our zone 5 and, especially after Suarez came off for Carroll with did absolutely nothing of note in zone 14. That one free-kick we got through Carroll in or close to the left edge of our zone 14 was just poor marking, IMHO.

As for their goals, the last one was a comedy of errors. The other two were poor marking. Henderson and Carragher for the first were monumentally shitty.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 11:48:47 pm »
Great post Aristotle. royhendo's stupid football post sums up the majority of our games, but this one just tops the lot.

I would talk about the game in detail but i would only be repeating what I've said after countless other games this season. We're regressing, of that there is no mistake. Not only have we not learnt anything from the beginning of the campaign, but we're making more and more mistakes.

Losing 3-2 with 15 minutes to go is unacceptable for a club of our supposed stature. There were glaring tactical errors all throughout the game. The simplest and best way to not let the opposition score is to slow down the tempo, keep possession and kill their momentum.

we gave them the ball, sat deep and waited for them to come at us. The moment Suarez left the pitch, we had no one pressing high up the park and that gave them time and the opportunity to mount attacks.

Very disappointed with kenny and the staff. No matter how many trophies we have at the end of the campaign, there are some very serious deficiencies which have been present from the start of the season which have not been sorted out yet.


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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 11:53:38 pm »
Zone 14? Really?

Offline Gainsbarre

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 12:00:31 am »
"Blackstone was targeted by Internet terrorists," Hicks said. "It absolutely had an impact on them."

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 12:08:28 am »
How observant are the coaching staff? Dan Kennet's article showing Suarez and his profligacy obviously tell us that Suarez can't be the main striker to score us goals.

This has resulted in an absolutely chronic flaw, we have failed to put games to bed - not because of mentality - but because we base our attack around a striker who rarely puts away his chances. I'm a bit worried that Kenny hasn't sorted this out and is still blaming luck, does he honestly believe it is luck?

Charlie Adam has been giving away stupid fouls all season - Why is he still allowed to do that? Why hasn't someone taken him to one side and told him that he will never give away a stupid foul again unless he wants to be sold.

One a macro problem, the other micro - both have been present throughout the entirety of the season. Which is begging the question is it just the players that are stupid, or is it the management too?

Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 12:11:23 am »
http://weekendfootball.co.uk/analysis/form.asp?l=1&season=12&formtype=&gamescount=10

Need not say more.
For those too lazy to open the link its a league table for the last 10 games (basically 2012).  We are 18th.  Ahead of the mighty Wolves and Wigan.

This is the problem for KD and SC.  Things have not got better through the season, they have got worse.

Offline duckym

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 12:11:46 am »
Id just like to know where zone 5 and 14 are if im honest!
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Offline Red an White Tea Party

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 12:48:57 am »
Whatever happened in the final 15 minutes, we still don't attack space in the final 3rd, zone 14 or from corners. The team are so static or reluctant to attack the box at times I swear they think a diagonal run into the box is some kind of kinky past time. They need to be 4/5 - 0 up if their going to take the last 15 minutes 'off' so you could say we had lost after not capitalising on that early dominance.
Coates goal though, beautiful to watch. I feel angry his thunder was stolen. let alone the rest of it. 
If you ask Smalling and Brown if they'd rather play Suarez or Carroll, they'd say Suarez all day long, because he's not going to bully them or run in behind them.

Offline CRAZY HORSE EMLYN

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 01:54:26 am »
All the analysis on this game has made my head spin.
48 hours ago we were 'progressing' FA Cup sem-finalists.
Now everyone's against the wall.

I think there's loads of valid analysis, but wish folk would step back and look at the competition, and remind ourselves
it's been possibly the most unpredictable, downright weird season for many a year. Freak results all over the shop.
I also think year on year the quality of all the Premiership teams gets stronger. There aren't really whipping boys at the
bottom, whilst at the top, well, the 'big 4' ceased to be a valid term quite some time ago.

Regarding Kenny, question away. But to make myself feel better my brain reminded me of the following list of
defeats this season presided over by another Glaswegian manager. Any of their scummy lot, or the media seriously asking for him to
throw in the towel after any of these?

27.09.2011   Basle                      home   D3-3
23.10.2011   Manchester City   home   L 1-6   
30.11.2011   Crystal Palace           home       L 1-2 aet
07.12.2011   Basle                           away           L1-2
31.12.2011   Blackburn Rovers      home   L 2-3   
04.01.2012   Newcastle United      away           L 0-3
23.02.2012   Ajax                           home   L1-2   (3-2)
08.03.2012   Athletic Bilbao           home   L2-3   
15.03.2012   Athletic Bilbao           away         L1-2   (3-5)

So there you go. 9 absolute howlers. And the f*ckers are still top of the sodding league.
I know it's a dirty thing to do to make you look over the fence at that shower – although some
of those results did make me smile at that time.  We're almost 30pts off the pace right now,
and that, aligned with being so far behind Newcastle is just embarrassing. But they've fallen apart all over the shop, yet
they get back up again – and, crucially, stick by their man.

Offline Redeo

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 05:18:24 am »
And now to the point I was making with a few people yesterday. ...
Good points you raise Aristotle. But can our league form down the years truly just be about who the captain is?
It's a website mate. Names can't be named. If they were, there'd be mutiny. If they aren't, people will scream ... ask for proof. But you will never find 100% proof of anything on here. So, .. look at all evidence, weigh everything up and make a decision.

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 07:43:54 am »
This was the first game I haven't seen in a little while, so I'll leave it to you guys to discuss.

A few starting points - we win with Carroll in the team; We lose with Adam. Did Adam's presence have any effect?Why didn't we keep the same team, if Kelly was fit?




And finally - Is there a difference between being the right man for the job, and being the right manager for the job?

Can we please stop butchering Statistics and mixing up coincidence with causation? It is meaningless to cite how many times we won with Carroll or Adam on the pitch. It does not mean that they helped us win or caused us to lose per se.

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 07:58:19 am »
You dont deserve to win games when the team checks off the clock with 10 plus minutes on it to still play. That trend of not concentrating giving the effort you would expect has creeped into our game a lot over weeks,months and years to be honest. I mean we have had the pleasure where we do pick and choose our moments to save ourselves even in the league as we look ahead to a cup / CL tie. Fecking criminal when you have months to still play in the league. Maybe it all started when 4th became good enough so we gave that effort to get that high we were happy even though we still finished 10 - 20 plys points and more behind the champs. Now that we think we are a top 6 side the same may be happening as the buck wont stop if we finish within a reasonable distance within our season goal...which either 4th or 6th or a cup final is on all accounts piss poor compared to our 70s and 80s goals.

You can point fingers at one man maybe we dont have a Souness to grab us by the scruff but when the owners say 4th spot is what we want (at least) then they already lowered their expectations compared to Utd, Chelsea and even City.

Anyway shyte happens it has stuck around a wee too much the past year or two with some half hearted performances so start from the bottom up and those lads who dont give 100% at all times can either be motivated to do so or  :wave
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 08:06:36 am »
I thought if anybody could come in and instill into our players what it means to play for Liverpool football club, Kenny would be the man. Its not quite working out like that at the moment though. I dont think it helps that a lot of these players at the club dont seem to have the bottle or ability to play for a big club like Liverpool.

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 09:58:40 am »
Firstly in reply to Aristotle. The Gerrard comment I think is irrelevant and I think untrue. Our consistency and ability to win games had nothing to do with Gerrard as Captain and everything to do with team balance, talent on the pitch and having a ruthlessly clinical striker up front. It's Alonso/Masherano/Torres vs Adam or Henderson/Spearing/Carroll. It's players proven on the world stage vs player proven in the Championship (with a purple patch in the Premier League).

As for the QPR loss it was more of the same.
I see three major contributing factors to the loss.
1. An imbalanced/unfamiliar back four (Carragher at RB)
2. Unintelligent midfielders that don't track back or take up position in the box 
3. No clinical striker to kill the game off.

1. In my eyes continuity in your back four is a huge part of having a successful defence and it's not been too big a problem till this game. When you've got a aging CB doing a job at RB, a young CB in his first game for a month and not a lot of midfield protection then it doesn't take a lot for it to go pair shaped.

2. It's often been mentioned but the intelligence of our players leaves a lot to be desired and it starts with the midfield. Ball watchers the lot of them (Gerrard aside) and if you go back and watch the replay the flaws are woefully apparent. The first goal Henderson, caught ball watching, losses Derry and doesn't even contest, for me his attempt is woefully inadequate. The second goal is equally instructive, Henderson turns and while tracking back is caught out watching the ball only at the last minute realizing Carragher has left his man to pressure Zamora. He comes up short trying to get across to cut out the cross. Now it's rough on Henderson to blame him for that but that's the type of stuff Kuyt did game in game out under Rafa.

and it's equally apparent in attack as well.

Watch Kuyt's goal closely, it's very instructive. Enrique on a run passes to Suarez who shows an unbelievable bit of skill beating his man. Gerrard has dropped back to LB covering Enrique and it's at this point obvious Suarez is going to get a shot on goal. So how do our players react to this?

Henderson's standing flat footed 2 yards outside the penalty box, Downing likewise though a bit wider and unbelievably Enrique is now walking away with his back to goal. And we scream about getting midfielders into the box! Fortuitously the ball drops to Downing (through sheer luck) and what's the reaction? Henderson doesn't move instead showing for the ball with his hands out (I fucking hate that) and while Downing shows a bit of skill, it's Kuyt that shows intelligence positioning himself between the RB and Downing hoping for the pass but also goal side for the rebound tap in. Some say luck but it's not, it's game intelligence.

It needs to improve at both ends and not just Henderson, he's just the mug that got caught out this time. TO sum extent it's all the midfielders but the finger has to primarily be pointed at Adam, Downing & Henderson.

3. We don't have a quality finisher to finish the finishes that are there to be finished. It's gotten to the point where nothing more needs to be said on that topic.

Edited for atrocious spelling and grammar
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:38:09 am by DanA »
Quote from: hinesy
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 09:59:03 am »
Anyone know where I can find pass completion stats broken down in 10 min increments, like this, for the QPR game?

Basically, Degs wrote an awesome post about patience and i'd be interested to see some stats from Wed...

Minutes   Success   Fail   Percent
0-10               22   10   68%
11-20        65   16   80%
21-30        43   16   72%
31-40        47   10   82
41-50        74   16   82%
51-60        34   8   80%
61-70        33   12   73%
71-80        39   15   72%
81-90        62   27   69%

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 10:09:59 am »
The game wasn´t really that much different to the season so far so there aren´t really any new aspects to look at or learn from.

The ball circulation, defending and the domination is alright if every player gives 100% which is the problem itself. It´s not easy for us though, a lot of players have to make up for being not so talented and for that we are reyling too much on our physical strength.

The effort necessary for winning back the ball, possession and keeping up the concentration for the entire 90 minutes is just too big which lead to lacks of concentration ususally when the players are tired, and/or the pressure is either too big or not big enough. I find this perfectly true for the likes of Adam and Downing who seem to struggle/loose control of their game, under too much pressure in big games (Adam - overdoing, Downing - hiding) and on the other hand completely loosing any control of their game against weaker teams, when the pressure doesn´t seem to be there in the first place.

The last 10 minutes showed exactly that. On the one hand, the team was tired from a lot of games recently and too tired to play our dominating game over 90 minutes which is based on too much physical emphasis as the talent isn´t there. On the other hand, it was this lack of concentration happening I was refering to above, which arises when some players cannot handle a situation either too much pressured or none at all.

Unfortunately, because of the team as a unit isn´t able to play pass and move easily IMO it drags down the likes of Gerrard to the same level of struggle. He has to run more, for that he lacks power and concentration when needed.

What a difference to Instanbul f.e. where a player like Hamann did quite the opposite and brought calmness to the ball circulation which lifted the other players. And what a difference to last year under Kenny when we passed the ball around for fun in a lot of games during the end of the game... better players around, simple as.

Some say luck but, it's not, it's game intelligence.

Exactly. And this comes from quality and talent.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:27:01 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 10:25:28 am »
The game wasn´t really that much different to the season so far so there aren´t really any new aspects to look at or learn from.

The ball circulation, defending and the domination is alright if every player gives 100% which is the problem itself. It´s not easy for us though, a lot of players have to make up for being not so talented and for that we are reyling too much on our physical strength.

The effort necessary for winning back the ball, possession and keeping up the concentration for the entire 90 minutes is just too big which lead to lacks of concentration ususally when the players are tired, and/or the pressure is either too big or not big enough. I find this perfectly true for the likes of Adam and Downing who seem to struggle/loose control of their game, under too much pressure in big games (Adam - overdoing, Downing - hiding) and on the other hand completely loosing any control of their game against weaker teams, when the pressure doesn´t seem to be there in the first place.

The last 10 minutes showed exactly that. On the one hand, the team was tired from a lot of games recently and too tired to play our dominating game over 90 minutes which is based on too much physical emphasis as the talent isn´t there. On the other hand, it was this lack of concentration happening I was refering to above, which arises when some players cannot handle a situation either too much pressured or none at all.

Unfortunately, because of the team as a unit, isn´t able to play pass and move easily IMO it drags down the likes of Gerrard to the same level of struggle. He has to run more, for that he lacks power and concentration when needed.

What a difference to Instanbul f.e. where a player like Hamann did quite the opposite and brought calmness to the ball circulation which lifted the other players. And what a difference to last year when we passed the ball around for fun in a lot of games during the end of the game... better players around, simple as.
I don't think you can say Downing isn't talented. I think he lacks the confidence and swager that is needed to be a top class winger. The only bit of his game I think he can improve on is his right foot. Too many times he cuts inside and where he should shoot he can't because he doesn't have a right peg. Ridiculous for a man at his level.

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2012, 10:26:44 am »
The ball circulation, defending and the domination is alright if every player gives 100% which is the problem itself. It´s not easy for us though, a lot of players have to make up for being not so talented and for that we are reyling too much on our physical strength.

I agree with the rest of your post but I don't agree with this. Neither Henderson or Downing rely on strength and both have excellent pass completion stats and general skill. To me it's a confidence thing, neither move with purpose. They neither attack the box or defend with authority. It's like they freeze unable to make a decision. They've got the talent but mentally they're not making assertive decisions quick enough.  Adam is a different kettle of fish. He doesn't have their talent.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 10:28:31 am »
I don't think you can say Downing isn't talented. I think he lacks the confidence and swager that is needed to be a top class winger. The only bit of his game I think he can improve on is his right foot. Too many times he cuts inside and where he should shoot he can't because he doesn't have a right peg. Ridiculous for a man at his level.

I was too slow with basically the same message
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 10:29:37 am »
Firstly in reply to Aristotle. The Gerrard comment I think is irrelevant and I think untrue. Our consistency and ability to win games had nothing to do with Gerrard as Captain and everything to do with team balance, talent on the pitch and having a ruthlessly clinical striker up front. It's Alonso/Masherano/Torres vs Adam or Henderson/Spearing/Carroll. It's players proven on the world stage vs player proven in the Championship (with a purple patch in the Premier League).

As for the QPR loss it was more of the same.
I see three major contributing factors to the loss.
1. An imbalanced/unfamiliar back four (Carragher at RB)
2. Unintelligent midfielders that don't track back or take up position in the box 
3. No clinical striker to kill the game off.

1. In my eyes continuity in your back four is a huge part of having a successful defence and it's not been too big a problem till this game. When you've got a aging CB doing a job at RB, a young CB in his first game for a month and not a lot of midfield protection then it doesn't take a lot for it to go pair shaped.

2. It's often been mentioned but the intelligence of our players leaves a lot to be desired and it starts with the midfield. Ball watchers the lot of them (Gerrard aside) and if you go back and watch the replay the flaw are woefully apparent. The first goal Henderson caught ball watching  losses Derry and does even contest, for me his attempt is woefully inadequate. The second goal is equally instructive, Henderson turn and is caught out watching the ball only at the last minute realizing Carragher has left his man to pressure Zamora. He comes up short trying to get across to cut out the cross. Now it's rough on Henderson to blame him for that but that's the type of stuff Kuyt did game in game out under Rafa.

and it's equally apparent in attack as well.

Watch Kuyt's goal closely it's very instructive. Enrique on a run passes to Suarez who shows an unbelievable bit of skill beating his man. Gerrard has dropped back to LB covering Enrique and it's at this point obvious Suarez is going to get a shot on goal. So how do our players react to this?

Henderson's standing flat footed 2 yards out side the penalty box, Downing likewise though a bit wider and unbelievably Enrique is now walking away with his back to goal. And we scream about getting midfielders into the box! Fortuitously the ball drops to Downing (through sheer luck) and what's the reaction? Henderson doesn't move instead showing for the ball with his hands out (I fucking hate that) and while Downing shows a bit of skill it's Kuyt that shows intelligence positioning himself between the RB and Downing for the pass but also goal side for the rebound tap in. Some say luck but, it's not, it's game intelligence.

It needs to improve at both ends and not just Henderson, he's just the mug that got caught out this time. TO sum extent it's all the midfielders but the finger has to primarily be pointed at Adam, Downing & Henderson.

3. We don't have a quality finisher to finish the finishes that are there to be finished. It's gotten to the point where nothing more needs to be said on that topic.

+ good analysis...

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2012, 10:33:25 am »
I agree with the rest of your post but I don't agree with this. Neither Henderson or Downing rely on strength and both have excellent pass completion stats and general skill. To me it's a confidence thing, neither move with purpose. They neither attack the box or defend with authority. It's like they freeze unable to make a decision. They've got the talent but mentally they're not making assertive decisions quick enough.  Adam is a different kettle of fish. He doesn't have their talent.
I don't think you can say Downing isn't talented. I think he lacks the confidence and swager that is needed to be a top class winger. The only bit of his game I think he can improve on is his right foot. Too many times he cuts inside and where he should shoot he can't because he doesn't have a right peg. Ridiculous for a man at his level.

With pysical strength I meant the effort necessary in order to dominate a game, the amount of running and tackles you have to do for winning back the ball and passing the ball around.

Define talent? Probably I should have said lack of education in terms of movement off the ball, knowledge of playing in patterns/triangles, tactical awerness without any instructions of the manager etc.

I would agree that Henderson has enough technical skills for being a really good pass and move player but his knowledge on HOW to make us of this just isn´t there yet. But he is only 22, he could learn quickly.

I am split on Downing, his head is down too often in order to keep control of the ball and he rarely knows what to do with the ball before he receives it. And the amount of running he does comparing to the outcome is a sign of trying to make up for not being into the game more often than not. Same with Enrique, especially when comparing to someone like Aurelio f.e. All parts of being "talented" IMO.

Adam could be good if he would concentrate on playing the holding role only besides Spearing by concentrating on winning back the ball, using his physical strength to win tackles and deliver for the attacking players. If he doesn´t concentrate on that, he is lost in trying to run the game in the middle.

Only one, or two top player could lift the whole squad though. If we manage to bring them in, we will be fine next season as the foundation is there, visible in the way we defend and pass the ball around, with too much effort yet but still.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:41:36 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2012, 10:43:24 am »
With pysical strength I meant the effort necessary in order to dominate a game, the amount of running and tackles you have to do for winning back the ball and passing the ball around.

Define talent? Probably I should have said lack of education in terms of movement off the ball, knowledge of playing in patterns/triangles, tactical awerness without any instructions of the manager etc.

I would agree that Henderson has enough technical skills for being a really good pass and move player but his knowledge on HOW to make us of this just isn´t there yet. But he is only 22, he could learn quickly.

I am split on Downing, his head is down too often in order to keep control of the ball and he rarely knows what to do with the ball before he receives it. And the amount of running he does comparing to the outcome is a sign of trying to make up for not being into the game more often than not. Same with Enrique, especially when comparing to someone like Aurelio f.e. All parts of being "talented" IMO.

Adam could be good if he would concentrate on playing the holding role only besides Spearing by concentrating on winning back the ball, using his physical strength to wint tackles and deliver for the attacking players. If he doesn´t concentrate on that, he is lost in tryingn to be Blackpool-Charly in Liverpool.

Only one, or two top player could lift the whole squad though. If we manage to bring them in, we will be fine next season as the foundation is there, visible in the way we defend and pass the ball around, with too much effort yet but still.

Okay yeah I agree with that to an extent. The difference is I think Downing when he is the big fish (at Aston Vila) is making the intelligent runs and doing the pass and move thing. Here though, I reckon he shits himself a bit and hides in plain sight.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2012, 10:53:15 am »
Okay yeah I agree with that to an extent. The difference is I think Downing when he is the big fish (at Aston Vila) is making the intelligent runs and doing the pass and move thing. Here though, I reckon he shits himself a bit and hides in plain sight.

There is less space here for his runs though. IMO he still has to adopt his game which he tried to do recently I think. He did improve..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2012, 10:54:11 am »
Lack of depth at full back, Pepe looks a shadow of the player he was because of fatigue, as did Enrique, DM position needs strengthening (no option to bring on a DM to shore up that midfield). Too many injuries to key players; Lucas, Agger, Johnson, Bellamy and now Kelly.

Tactically too attacking....but we should like this. This was the way we played before Houllier and Benitez. We just need fresher players and some better players to execute the plan.

I think we played some magnificent football, and again, we lacked the cutting edge. The breakthrough came through Coates from Downings cross, and a Downing dribble and shot rebounded in by Kuyt. Suarez' lack of finish is starting to do my nut in, he makes some great chances and lacks composure to put them in. Carroll will get blamed again, 35million this, 35million that, didnt even play really, got  10mins.

We need to bolster this squad with good 2 excellent quality or take a risk on youth to get anywhere. Flanagan and Robinson did a great job for us last year, but why aren't they getting the same chances as before? We have to assume that we're at least producing good quality players at youth and reserve level. We all know Flanagan is better than Degen and Sterling better than Nabil El Zhar.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2012, 11:05:26 am »
Lack of depth at full back, Pepe looks a shadow of the player he was because of fatigue, as did Enrique, DM position needs strengthening (no option to bring on a DM to shore up that midfield). Too many injuries to key players; Lucas, Agger, Johnson, Bellamy and now Kelly.

Tactically too attacking....but we should like this. This was the way we played before Houllier and Benitez. We just need fresher players and some better players to execute the plan.

I think we played some magnificent football, and again, we lacked the cutting edge. The breakthrough came through Coates from Downings cross, and a Downing dribble and shot rebounded in by Kuyt. Suarez' lack of finish is starting to do my nut in, he makes some great chances and lacks composure to put them in. Carroll will get blamed again, 35million this, 35million that, didnt even play really, got  10mins.

We need to bolster this squad with good 2 excellent quality or take a risk on youth to get anywhere. Flanagan and Robinson did a great job for us last year, but why aren't they getting the same chances as before? We have to assume that we're at least producing good quality players at youth and reserve level. We all know Flanagan is better than Degen and Sterling better than Nabil El Zhar.
Again why a defensive mid when we have Lucas and Spearing? The players I am worried about are Enrique and Adam. Enrique keeps on making mistakes and doesn't look as good going forward anymore. I don't know whether he needs a rest but he needs to pick his game up.

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2012, 11:07:56 am »
I also found the reaction of Kenny very interesting. Like he made up his mind on the things to changes...

 Juan Loco wrote in another thread the way the owners made their decisions so far and from what they are constantly saying they will probably take a close look on the stats of this season and realise that the defending, possession, chances created was there. The lack of converting those chances, quality in the final third, will make them bring in a top striker and attacking midfielder.

I tend to agree with that and I am pretty sure if this happens, together with one or two players as a replacement for some aging players and maybe one top full back, we will be fine for next season.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:11:40 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2012, 11:20:23 am »
Shit happens.

I'd hope everybody on involved realises what they did wrong, and make sure they don't do it again.


Apart from that, we played some outstanding football for the first 20 minutes, or until Kelly got injured. Put a finisher in there, and add a midfielder with vision, and we'll be scoring and winning matches. It's not exactly a new problem, we've been trying to give our new signings every chance to grow, but I don't think they will now.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2012, 11:28:59 am »
we've lost 4 games against the bottom 7.

that is dreadful.
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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2012, 11:56:47 am »
What the defeat simply confirms is that this season we have been a mentally weak side. We can get ourselves up for big games (e.g. the cup games) but we struggle against lesser teams or less important games.

With Kenny as manager that is unacceptable but only he can solve this by sending a message to these players via the dressing room and the transfer market.

To lose defensive discipline to that extent in 10 minutes was also unacceptable and shows that the players are struggling to focus for an entire game. We let teams off the hook in the majority of games.

The Mancs have put in many performances like ours and many much, much worse, but it has been their mentality (and clinical finishing) which has left them on 70 points.

Composure is also closely related to this - keeping calm in those important moments - to keep your head to stick the ball in the net, to not lose your man when a cross comes in.

There are many technical problems we have which I think can be sorted with Lucas coming back and a few more signings, but until the above issues are addressed we will struggle again next season.
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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2012, 12:02:30 pm »

 

To be honest I've never considered this argument. It's certainly food for thought.

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Re: Round and round the circle line...
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2012, 12:08:42 pm »

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2012, 12:29:22 pm »
Why? Because when those teams stepped onto the pitch one arrogantly assumed victory, the other worked towards it. I am simply quoting the world cup games as it's part of a piece I'm doing for the Euros in the summer when comparing mentality to quality, citing Germany's success and England's failure. We are becoming the England NT of club football. The achievement(s) of the past and our place in the history books has installed a mentality that we can't match on the pitch. Only thing differing us from England is that we can win when it matters in knock-out formation.

Excellent post Ari, however I'd like to focus on this bit as I think it's the most revealing about our lack of consistent league form over the last few years.

When you talk to any other set of supporters, they throw the 'You're dwelling on your history' tag at us because, no matter how much we may deny it, it's true.

Teams like United, Barcelona and even Real Madrid know what has happened in their history, yet still look to the future to create more by beating the smaller teams and showing the world that not only were their past sides great, but so are their current and possibly future ones. It's a mentality that we need to instil into ourselves as this 'We're the most successful English team' argument is quite frankly, being used as a cover against what our ambitions should be.

We should be beating teams like QPR, Swansea, Wolves, Norwich, Villa, Newcastle ect on a regular basis, without switching off until the players are shaking hands after the final whistle.

Against QPR, it's safe to say we were coasting through that, with them being unbelievably shocking through the game up until Mackie came on for them. We had it in the bag, everyone knew it, the players knew it, yet the one crucial mistake we made was exactly that, we knew we had it won and just let them have the ball. It was almost as if the players turned around to each and said 'Oh I can't be bothered running now, we've twatted them, let them have the ball for a bit' and just let them play thinking they wouldn't cause any problems.

When Suarez went off and Carroll came on, it was an instant mistake, the lad was obviously knackered but all we had to do was keep the ball and run down the clock, bring on Carroll earlier than the 81st minute but have him playing alongside Suarez in order to give the lad a bit of help upfront. Carroll's presence would have given Suarez more space to work in, yet by bringing him off, we gave QPR the perfect target to mark in Carroll because of his lack of pace with and without the ball, we gave them the way back into the game.

The defence was the worst I've seen all season in those last 20 minutes, with Carragher, Skrtel, Coates and Enrique constantly getting dragged out of position by their man and leaving so much space behind, that even Voronin could have got a hat-trick with that amount of time on the ball. We let them bully us, and all because we thought 'We've won it' before the final whistle.

The entire mentality of the club needs to change, yes we've won the European Cup 5 times, yes we've won the Division 1 Cup 18 times, yes we've won the League Cup 8 times, but that all counts for nothing if we don't continue to do it and not dwell on our past.

As of this season, we stopped being a top team and became a possible top team, the one thing we need to do now is drop this mentality of 'Everyone's scared because we're Liverpool' because it's simply not true, what we need to start thinking it 'We're Liverpool, we need to beat these to continue our history,' just like United, Barca and Madrid do. Only then will we see a return to consistent winning ways.

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Re: Round and round the circle line... (QPR 3-2LFC Round Table)
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2012, 10:57:41 pm »
Some good posts in here, thanks! But I wanted to touch a bit on the silver lining, and maybe I'm pushing it a bit, but here we go.

1. Our fourth place chances are virtually gone. I thought so even before the game, but I honestly believe that Kenny thought we can nick it. Fair enough. But now we have guaranteed European football, FA semifinal and we MUST play the young players. Not only will we examine more closely how they progress, but they may be able to give us options we can use in the remaining FA game(s). At the very least, we will bed them some of them (Coates, Kelly, maybe Jonjo) for next year, while others (Flanagan, Sterling, some say Suso) might get a few first team minutes under their belt.

2. Weed out the deadwood and identify those on the decline. We did that last year (got rid in vast quantities), I expect this year to be no different. I'd keep Kuyt, but if he wants first team football we must sell. Would a few games until the end of season change his mind?... Maxi seems on the way out, Aurelio is out, question marks hang over Jonjo's head, etc. Playing them can sway Kenny one way or another.

3. We can now exploit different systems more rigorously, why not?! Maybe Kenny hasn't found the best one yet and maybe he can identify a player or two to purchase that will allow us to play in a different way. Now is the time for that.

4. And lastly, QPR. To be honest, out of the five teams fighting to stay, I'd rather see them succeed than the likes of Bolton and Wigan. Wolves were relegated the moment they fired McCarty. The league would be a better one without them two, especially the bending-over-for-mancs Whelan (sorry Martinez, I love your football, but your club is shit...)
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